What I don't get is why don't shield extenders increase your sig radius? Shields should make you easy to spot on the minimap. The bigger your shield the harder it is to hide.

Also proposed numbers...

Standard Armor rep +4 hp/sec
Enhanced +8 hp/sec
Complex +12 hp/sec

Also why did CCP pick bonuses out of a hat for dropsuits? Eve online has been going through a huge overhaul of all ships bonuses. Yet in dust they can't even get that right?

do agree

armor currently is massively unfair
it would make more sense if fights went on longer so the delay was of more use to armor tankers atm they dont do its pointless

Armor reps need a large buff poss upto 10 for the plex
Armor penalty needs to go find somthing else which does not affect your aim and turn speeds, i dont mind run speed but i better get a larger buffer
Modules need higher hp than current, not by much just abit to help out modules

think there will be more med slot modules coming so that will balance out in time

I am going to be honest, I learnt a fair bit reading this post. I actually asked Arkena to make this post as he was explaining armor tanking to me in IRC.

I can't really comment on this very much though as it is not an area I work on. I can and will say however that those that do work on this stuff have read this thread. It actually made it into our weekly community report today that gets sent around to everyone working on DUST.

Thank you very much for this post. :D

Solutions could easily be introduced into the already existing skills.
The 2% bonus to armor reps is laughable. 5 levels to gain a Minmatar Medium Assault armor rep bonus when using a Comples repairer.

Plates shouldn't reduce movement speed, only sprint.

If CCPs solution to armor tanking is to introduce less HP no movement penalty modules, armor suits will need an extra low slot.

My number one issue with armor tanking, is that I can't stack armor plates as effectively as a shield tanker can stack extenders.

While I *do* stack them, I end up with less HP *and* penalized. Sure enough, a heavily shield tanked assault suit doesn't have damage mods, but in the long run, it doesn't matter as much.

Gallente suits for one, should have a 1 HP armor rep to armor repairers per level for Assault Suit (and the fitting bonus for the spec.)

I am going to be honest, I learnt a fair bit reading this post. I actually asked Arkena to make this post as he was explaining armor tanking to me in IRC.

I can't really comment on this very much though as it is not an area I work on. I can and will say however that those that do work on this stuff have read this thread. It actually made it into our weekly community report today that gets sent around to everyone working on DUST.

Thank you very much for this post. :D

GALLENTE!
REJOICE!

Caldari Logistics NO racial
EHP: 843

Caldari Logistics racial
EHP: 934 <-- holy sh...

Gallente Logistics
EHP: 698

Caldari Assault
EHP: 846

Gallente Assault
EHP: 773

Gallente Assault 6% speed buff
EHP: 828


Gallente Logistics 6% speed buff
EHP: 753

CaLogi NO racial -1 High slot
EHP: 770

_________
Amarr Assault
EHP:811

Amarr Logistics
EHP:736

Minmatar Assault
EHP: 862 <-- 5.01m/s base speed after armor modules, wow...

Minmatar Logistics
EHP: 733 <-- 4.72 base speed after armor modules

Armor/Shield balance needs to be balanced at the suit level first, then work on buffing the armor modules themselves. Doing so would move the Amarr and Minmatar to the top of the OP list, while balancing the Gallente and Caldari in the bottom end.

^^this. the heavies base EHP is 800. so these guys are running around with the strength of a heavy the faster shield recovery (yes thier shields recharge faster than heavies as a base ability), faster turning speed, faster sprint/movement speed, and over all greater mobility. add in the bunny hopping, and you can basically do the job of a heavy at half the price, and be twice as effective.

CCP why do you hate heavies?


P.S. don't even talk about heavies armor or shield tanking the amount of slots we get at proto level are laughable.

the primary concern about heavies is that approaching 1300 HP requires at least 2 complex plates and a crippling speed penalty. Further, without completely maxing out both armor and the shield upgrade skill the base health of a heavy is less than a tanked caldari medium suit.

Before anyone says defensive roles, that's a s**tty copout. sentinels are defensive. Heavies are heavy. Further, the speed penalty is crippling when the defender is so pathetically easily outflanked.

until CCP does 64v64 or higher matches people do not have the manpower to park 4 or more fatties on a cap point.

In ambush fatties are sitting ducks.

to a lesser extent so are gallente and amarr medium/assault suits.

I'll be honest here - I'm not a heavy player, so I don't feel qualified to make a comprehensive comment on the issue.
I really do agree with you though. Speed penalties hurt enough for medium frames - I imagine heavies, already struggling for speed, suffer horrible things.

After i play my heavy alt more and skill him up we can talk. I can already say that HMG + Militia Heavy suit often gets wtfpwned by newbie suits. the EHP is laughably low.

I pretty much have maxed support skills and often a militia fit caldari medium frame (standard) lives longer than my heavy fit. It depends what I'm fighting though.

As always some enemies are easier than others.

Oh and the points you made apply to heavies as much if not more in your OP. There's really no functional difference in the downsides between the various classes. it's just more obvious in the heavy, but proportionally equally problematic.

At the current rate the smart thing for hevies will be to jump ship to caldari/minmatar as soon as the suits are released.

A sad example of how important mobility is.

Tbh the militia heavy has lower HP than normal heavies, so the EHP isn't helping you much anyway.
Your main problem is probably that the militia suits can actually hit you properly.

my thoughts are that CCP has always kinda had a bass-ackward view of shield Vs. tank. It's evident in EVE online especially.

Shields are the tougher nut, you only need to wait for them to recharge, and there's ways to make that happen insanely fast.

Armor is pretty much SOL without local reps.

Shields tend to be standoff and long range.

Armor tends to be wade-in-and-smash.

Shields seem to be faster

Armor is slower.

Armor needs to be able to get in fast in order to deliver anything resembling damage properly.

I am going to be honest, I learnt a fair bit reading this post. I actually asked Arkena to make this post as he was explaining armor tanking to me in IRC.

I can't really comment on this very much though as it is not an area I work on. I can and will say however that those that do work on this stuff have read this thread. It actually made it into our weekly community report today that gets sent around to everyone working on DUST.

Thank you very much for this post. :D

There are a few solutions to this problem that I would suggest. Please feel free to debate these GÇô I would be very interested to hear the thoughts of both shield and armour tankers.
1. Increase repair rate, especially at the basic level. I would suggest 4, 7, and 10 HP/s for the repair modules. This is a huge increase, but I think itGÇÖs needed to make repair modules effective. It also has the effect of making them have a noticeable effect for newbies.
2. Change the mobility penalty on the armour plates. ItGÇÖs very significant at the moment, especially for complex plates, which leads to complex plates being rarely used. A good idea would be to change the speed penalty to a stamina penalty, so it isnGÇÖt as harsh, but still impedes the mobility slightly. Also, reduce the penalty, so itGÇÖs something like 2%, 4%, and 6%. This would let complex plates actually be used. This isn't necessary if armour is buffed much - this would be a notable difference between shields and armour, the mobility vs HP tradeoff. It's important to maintain that difference and not make them too similar.
3. Increase the HP armour plates give to be in line with shields GÇô 65, 110, and 175. Again, this would make complex plates used. Not precise values, just to show the basic idea - the basic plate might need to be tweaked to keep the progression balanced. Kitten Empress suggested a good set of numbers here, which I have put in the 'Notable Feedback' section at the end of my post.
4. Change the bonuses on the armour suits to be something that actually fits an armour suit. The amarr suit has a good example of this - a repair bonus (though this is on the logistics suit, and it's the assault suits that needs these). An armour rep bonus would be good on a Gallente suit, for example, and a plate bonus for an Amarr suit.
5. Increase the base speed of armour tanking suits, improving the outcome when the plates are added. This encourages shield tanking on armour suits as well, though, so this on its own isn't sufficient. Credit to BL4CKST4R for the suggestion. This works best thematically with (overused example, but Gallente are the main armour tankers) Gallente, because of their short range gear, they need to get into range quicker.
6. Increase the delay before recharge on shields. This would emphasise the constant nature of armour repairers, and make it more significant, as well as helping to balance between the regeneration rates.

We'll be addressing armor tanking with multiple updates going forward:
- New armor modules will be released with the Uprising 1.2 patch:
- Ferroscale plates (smaller HP buff but no speed penalty)
- Reactive plates (small HP buff and minor repair rate buff - plates that heal themselves! )
- We'll be reducing the movement speed penalty slightly on armor plates in a future hot-fix.
- Giving proper racial bonuses! The reason the Gallente don't get (the very obvious) bonus to movement speed when armor tanking at the moment is because we use a tag system to confer bonuses to items and currently there is no way to exclude an item from getting a bonus. The only way to do this would be to tag EVERYTHING in the game that isn't the Gallente suit with a tag, which is error-prone and likely to ensure we unintentionally screw up some unrelated skill at some point. This will be corrected as soon as is feasible.

I've seen a couple posts that say 'a few weeks' now... So probably sometime mid July.

- Giving proper racial bonuses! The reason the Gallente don't get (the very obvious) bonus to movement speed when armor tanking at the moment is because we use a tag system to confer bonuses to items and currently there is no way to exclude an item from getting a bonus. The only way to do this would be to tag EVERYTHING in the game that isn't the Gallente suit with a tag, which is error-prone and likely to ensure we unintentionally screw up some unrelated skill at some point. This will be corrected as soon as is feasible.