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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8988	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:19:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Silver Strike44 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 175	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:26:00 - [2] - Quote First Me: Donate to The Rammeh McRam House Charity. Scrub: What's the cause? Rammeh: I'm retarded.
Ashley Swift New Age Empire. 11	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:28:00 - [3] - Quote Mom Now that you're close I feel like coming undone
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4004	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:30:00 - [4] - Quote Yes, please My advice to you, playa...
Dremel wp Shadow Company HQ Lokun Listamenn 39	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:31:00 - [5] - Quote +1 for putting commando and logi on top. Gallente looks strong, but if all suits are getting this it may be relative. I'm afraid of tanked gallente with stand off weapons with this iteration. Caldari numbers look good. Minmatar hybrid tank/flexibility will be interesting. I think this really opens up the utility of Minmatar suits. There will be no 'bad' module to put on a minnie suit.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3219	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:37:00 - [6] - Quote Gal rep should be slightly higher. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 2409	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:40:00 - [7] - Quote I brought up the idea of universal passive armor reps in my NPE thread. I think it would significantly improve the NPE. And it really does make sense for all suits. As long as built-in reps were very low (like what you've posted) I really don't see a problem. It would really allow for more freedom/creativity in fitting suits. Even 1hp passive reps would be a big improvment. Best PvE idea ever!
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4922	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:41:00 - [8] - Quote I guess my view of roles would be that Heavies had more innate shields/armor, to withstand some damage, but that they should have LESS regen than an Assault, who would be more cover based. What is the rationale for giving sentinals more regen than Assaults while at the same time giving them higher HP? You can always tell a Millford Minja

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8990	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:46:00 - [9] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I guess my view of roles would be that Heavies had more innate shields/armor, to withstand some damage, but that they should have LESS regen than an Assault, who would be more cover based. What is the rationale for giving sentinals more regen than Assaults while at the same time giving them higher HP? Something I thought of as I pasted this, Assault should be over Sents, for fast recovery. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3219	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:48:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I guess my view of roles would be that Heavies had more innate shields/armor, to withstand some damage, but that they should have LESS regen than an Assault, who would be more cover based. What is the rationale for giving sentinals more regen than Assaults while at the same time giving them higher HP? Something I thought of as I pasted this, Assault should be over Sents, for fast recovery. I personally find this more preferable Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4.5 (1.00) Logi 5.0 (2.00) Sentinel 4.0 (1.00) Assault 5.0 (2.00) Scout 3.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) [armor rep isn't what makes Scout powerful] Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 2.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 3.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 2.0 Logi 2.0 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 1.5 Logi 1.5 Sentinel 1.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 0.5 supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13730	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:49:00 - [11] - Quote I'm confused as to why armour suits need this at all. There is no reason to have natural passive armour reps as well. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3387	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:52:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I guess my view of roles would be that Heavies had more innate shields/armor, to withstand some damage, but that they should have LESS regen than an Assault, who would be more cover based. What is the rationale for giving sentinals more regen than Assaults while at the same time giving them higher HP? Something I thought of as I pasted this, Assault should be over Sents, for fast recovery. +1 to this, and the overall concept 0.02 ISK Cross PS ~ Agreed with Vell0cet that having mild reps like these could help improve the NPE See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2630	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:53:00 - [13] - Quote +1 Armor rep on all suits is a must, unless you take away shield regen on gallente and ammarr suits, which is stupid. The order for regen logically should be Assault, Scout, Logi, Commando, Sentinel. Though having commando have highest innate is actually smarter, as they have the fewest slots, and allows them to forgo a single slot if they so desire. Going off this logic, the armor repair from high to low should be Commando, Sentinel, Scout, Assault/Logi. This would be good, but doesn't make sense balance wise, so it should go Commando, Assault, Logi/Scout, Sentinel. Race wise, Amarr and Caldari should both have equally terrible repair, Minmitar should be just behind Gallente (like 1-1.5 hp/s behind), while Gallente will continue to be amaze balls. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 903	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:06:00 - [14] - Quote My only reservation with this as a Pure Caldari player is that giving any kind of armor regen WILL most likely make dual-tanking more attractive on Caldari suits again. Most cals I know, and myself included will still put a reactive plate in what we consider our 'utility' low slot as you've pointed out. Adding a native regen would just make me swap that out for a regular plate at this point. Perhaps more tweaking on actual shield numbers for the Caldari and nixing a native regen for them. idk, thats a quick convoluted thought I'm having just now. Give me ammo types or give me burst RRs! Death is irrelevant.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3390	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:09:00 - [15] - Quote Soldner VonKuechle wrote: My only reservation with this as a Pure Caldari player is that giving any kind of armor regen WILL most likely make dual-tanking more attractive on Caldari suits again. Most cals I know, and myself included will still put a reactive plate in what we consider our 'utility' low slot as you've pointed out. Adding a native regen would just make me swap that out for a regular plate at this point. Perhaps more tweaking on actual shield numbers for the Caldari and nixing a native regen for them. idk, thats a quick convoluted thought I'm having just now. Curious as to your primary role, just for contexts sake See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 904	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:11:00 - [16] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Soldner VonKuechle wrote: My only reservation with this as a Pure Caldari player is that giving any kind of armor regen WILL most likely make dual-tanking more attractive on Caldari suits again. Most cals I know, and myself included will still put a reactive plate in what we consider our 'utility' low slot as you've pointed out. Adding a native regen would just make me swap that out for a regular plate at this point. Perhaps more tweaking on actual shield numbers for the Caldari and nixing a native regen for them. idk, thats a quick convoluted thought I'm having just now. Curious as to your primary role, just for contexts sake Cal-ass, as well as Suicidal FG AV, and intermittent logi (would love the native for this, but meh, continuity!) then random calmando sniper and terrible scout. Give me ammo types or give me burst RRs! Death is irrelevant.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3390	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:13:00 - [17] - Quote Soldner VonKuechle wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Soldner VonKuechle wrote: My only reservation with this as a Pure Caldari player is that giving any kind of armor regen WILL most likely make dual-tanking more attractive on Caldari suits again. Most cals I know, and myself included will still put a reactive plate in what we consider our 'utility' low slot as you've pointed out. Adding a native regen would just make me swap that out for a regular plate at this point. Perhaps more tweaking on actual shield numbers for the Caldari and nixing a native regen for them. idk, thats a quick convoluted thought I'm having just now. Curious as to your primary role, just for contexts sake Cal-ass, as well as Suicidal FG AV, and intermittent logi (would love the native for this, but meh, continuity!) then random calmando sniper and terrible scout. When you say you play Caldari you really mean it thanks for the added info o7 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pseudogenesis Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 836	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:13:00 - [18] - Quote This would be a buff to the usability of ALL suits, and a great thing for all players, newbie and veteran alike. In particular it rewards the players who are good at not dying. I don't think there's any legitimate reason to object to this change. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Mister Goo Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 33	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:18:00 - [19] - Quote Yes Rattati I think you have a very good Idea, and I think your numbers are good also. Closed Beta Vet Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1424	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:18:00 - [20] - Quote I think that anything higher than 3 or 3.5 runs the risk of being too powerful - If we look back to the old logi bonus of +1 armor rep per level, it got to the point where level 5 logis did not fit any armor repair modules to their suit. I think suits having between 1-3 rep on them is fine, but anything higher (and in some cases even 3 is excessive) runs the risk of people going "Nah, I don't need armor reps". Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

Chief-Shotty WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 313	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:18:00 - [21] - Quote I like this idea a lot. Especially for the commando and assault suits. As a minmatar hit and run fighter, this would mean for minmatar suits you could fit shield extenders and a kincat and still have internal reps for your armor buffer especially for the two low-slot basic assault suits. Commando suits especially need some regen help because they are the suppression fighter so they need to the regen rate to make up for their hit-box size and lower health pool to their sentinel cousins. The initial numbers are good. Gallente should be armor rep kings while minmatar being regen hybrid tankers should have the second highest. (Remember min have lowest tanks so regen is the balancing factor) Amarr suits have enough lows to where they could fit reppers but they should be massive tank buffer Caldari would have the lowest as they shouldn't really be armor tanking, very little if at all. 8-Time New Eden Mass Driver Champion Min Commando Combat Rifle and Mass Driver = FUN and Tears OMG the Tears!! :)
hfderrtgvcd 950	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:24:00 - [22] - Quote this just encourages dual tanking and brick tanking more. I already see amarr and gallente assaults with 800+ armor and triage hives, this will just make it worse. At most you should be giving 1-2 hp/s to cal and min so they don't need to fit armor repairers. You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 605	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:29:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 Ok so you want the roles more likely to be near other players or logi to have high armor repair but the scouts that are usually out in the wild solo to have the least. makes perfect sense. Can you make it so you can use a repair tool on yourself and a single logi can have at least 10 hives out at a time too. Just my thoughts as Scouts should be high regen low armor but for some reason instead of fixing the armor tank scouts you fix everything else but the problem.
Omega Black Zero Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 126	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:29:00 - [24] - Quote What about Frames?
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 2411	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:31:00 - [25] - Quote Soldner VonKuechle wrote: My only reservation with this as a Pure Caldari player is that giving any kind of armor regen WILL most likely make dual-tanking more attractive on Caldari suits again. Most cals I know, and myself included will still put a reactive plate in what we consider our 'utility' low slot as you've pointed out. Adding a native regen would just make me swap that out for a regular plate at this point. Perhaps more tweaking on actual shield numbers for the Caldari and nixing a native regen for them. idk, thats a quick convoluted thought I'm having just now. I'd like to see assault suits become decent at Ewar (not as good as scouts of course). Right now, the main choices for assault fits are just tanking mods. If there was an actual benefit to fitting Ewar then you'd have more flexibility for creative choices, especially if you didn't feel obligated to fit an armor rep. Best PvE idea ever!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3392	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:38:00 - [26] - Quote Omega Black Zero wrote: What about Frames? A fair question. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3393	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:47:00 - [27] - Quote A few quick points of context since I was neck deep in Logistics at the time you reference below. MINA Longstrike wrote: I think that anything higher than 3 or 3.5 runs the risk of being too powerful - If we look back to the old logi bonus of +1 armor rep per level, it got to the point where level 5 logis did not fit any armor repair modules to their suit. Some Logis at level 5 did not fit reppers, many still did. Further at the time base rep value of the armor repair mods was lower across the boards to the contextual value of 1.00 HP/s then was much higher than it is now. MINA Longstrike wrote: I think suits having between 1-3 rep on them is fine, but anything higher (and in some cases even 3 is excessive) runs the risk of people going "Nah, I don't need armor reps". In some cases - I'm looking at you Caldari (as one example) - a player saying "Nah, I don't need armor reps" is actually not a bad thing. And I say this as a support player who's potential match earnings will be cut by having more suits with self sustaining levels of armor reps on board. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3264	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:50:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I guess my view of roles would be that Heavies had more innate shields/armor, to withstand some damage, but that they should have LESS regen than an Assault, who would be more cover based. What is the rationale for giving sentinals more regen than Assaults while at the same time giving them higher HP? Something I thought of as I pasted this, Assault should be over Sents, for fast recovery. % of total HP repped per second is higher for Assaults than it is for Sentinels, even if Sentinel absolute rep rate is the same. 2 HP per second means a lot more to an Assault than 2.5 means to a Sentinel. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
SponkSponkSponk WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1083	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:53:00 - [29] - Quote Given what Rattati said about assaults vs sentinels, and rationalising the numbers to make things more standardised, I propose these updated numbers: Gallente: 3.5 HP/s for medium frames 2.0 hp/s for everything else Minmatar: 3.0 HP/s for medium frames 1.5 hp/s for everything else Amarr: 2.5 HP/s for medium frames 1.0 hp/s for everything else Caldari: 3 HP/s for medium frames 0.5 hp/s for everything else I know it's a bit lower than what Rattati has, but I'm also cognisant that too high a base repair amount obsoletes armour repairers and reactive plates. Dust/Eve transfers
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8060	Posted - 2014.10.22 04:05:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 I am liking what I'm seeing here which is an accomplishment because it takes a bit to impress me. I do have something to pick at though, some of which has already been addressed: -The Amarr and Caldari Sentinels shouldn't have more than their Assault counterparts because they are the two HP tank races. I'm fine with where Gallente and Minmatar Sentinels are. Minmatar is especially fine because their heavies are Hybrid tankers anyway and being an odd ball in general but that's the beauty of Minmatar. -A previous person suggested a overall 1.5 more hp/s for Gallente but that's a bit much. If anything at the most give them .5 more hp/s if we even need that but I see where he's coming from. As far as everything else is concerned this list is Sgt Kirk Approved. Hopefully this will bring out Caldari suits that actually fit their suits like they should. I'd love to see some diversity. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.

Omega Black Zero Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 126	Posted - 2014.10.22 04:06:00 - [31] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Given what Rattati said about assaults vs sentinels, and rationalising the numbers to make things more standardised, I propose these updated numbers: Gallente: 3.5 HP/s for medium frames 2.0 hp/s for everything else Minmatar: 3.0 HP/s for medium frames 1.5 hp/s for everything else Amarr: 2.5 HP/s for medium frames 1.0 hp/s for everything else Caldari: 3 HP/s for medium frames 0.5 hp/s for everything else I know it's a bit lower than what Rattati has, but I'm also cognisant that too high a base repair amount obsoletes armour repairers and reactive plates. I like the idea of Commandos having the highest reps, so I'd say everything above, except Caldari and Commandos should be .5 higher than med frames at least Caldari: 1.5 HP/s for medium frames 0.5 hp/s for everything else
voidfaction Nos Nothi 605	Posted - 2014.10.22 04:08:00 - [32] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I guess my view of roles would be that Heavies had more innate shields/armor, to withstand some damage, but that they should have LESS regen than an Assault, who would be more cover based. What is the rationale for giving sentinals more regen than Assaults while at the same time giving them higher HP? Something I thought of as I pasted this, Assault should be over Sents, for fast recovery. Well I guess if medium frames and heavies should be over Scouts for faster recovery then tanked scouts with cloak+shotgun is the way they should be run.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8060	Posted - 2014.10.22 04:10:00 - [33] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: In some cases - I'm looking at you Caldari (as one example) - a player saying "Nah, I don't need armor reps" is actually not a bad thing. And I say this as a support player who's potential match earnings will be cut by having more suits with self sustaining levels of armor reps on board. Cheers, Cross Even though I'm an Armor rep guy I do not fit armor reps on my Scout suit just because I already have 3hp/s and I could much better use those slots for Kin Cats, Dampeners, and Ferroscale Plates. You can see this game slowly going evolving away from the mindset of HP > All. Slowly but surely we are getting there and it is a breath of fresh air. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1427	Posted - 2014.10.22 04:28:00 - [34] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: A few quick points of context since I was neck deep in Logistics at the time you reference below. MINA Longstrike wrote: I think that anything higher than 3 or 3.5 runs the risk of being too powerful - If we look back to the old logi bonus of +1 armor rep per level, it got to the point where level 5 logis did not fit any armor repair modules to their suit. Some Logis at level 5 did not fit reppers, many still did. Further at the time base rep value of the armor repair mods was lower across the boards so the contextual value of 1.00 HP/s then was much higher than it is now. MINA Longstrike wrote: I think suits having between 1-3 rep on them is fine, but anything higher (and in some cases even 3 is excessive) runs the risk of people going "Nah, I don't need armor reps". In some cases - I'm looking at you Caldari (as one example) - a player saying "Nah, I don't need armor reps" is actually not a bad thing. And I say this as a support player who's potential match earnings will be cut by having more suits with self sustaining levels of armor reps on board. Cheers, Cross I'll admit to overgeneralizing there and certainly the passive reps would be a very good thing for shield tanks, but some of the values seem to be a bit high for the armor tankers. I'm just voicing a concern that if the base numbers are too high players who should have armor reps might choose to simply forgo them in favor of HP bricking because they can get by without them (at least until the squad logi comes and touches them up). I'm no expert on the numbers here though. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 55	Posted - 2014.10.22 04:31:00 - [35] - Quote For now, I will say this. As a Gal Scout/Commando who moonlights as a Galentinel on occasion, I am very much so in favor of native regen as a whole, ESPECIALLY on suits with no low slots, but as an armor tanker, the native values won't change how I do my fittings. I use 2 reps for commando and sentinel as this allows me to treat my entire HP pool like it is shields as my armor completely repairs at around the same time as my shields do. This means my entire HP pool can effectively be used to absorb damage because if I am down to only 10 HP, I am back to full in 30 seconds. I'll likely still do the same thing afterwards. Granted I ONLY use complex repairers, and this might help lower level suits to feel the benefits of good regen amounts without the need for massive SP investment for better fitting numbers. On shield suits, if their armor doesn't repair quickly enough, then they are often fighting at less than 100% efficiency. At the rates described it would still take over a minute to regain that missing HP, and while having a regulator or mobility mod might sound nice, it still means that until your armor is back, you are fighting at a disadvantage. This means ideally that you must never let your shield tank break, so if it does you have enough to stay alive, but this still means that your primary strategy is to fight using only a portion of your HP. Caldari standard tier commandos and sentinels will rejoice to have something, but adv and proto might prefer to continue using armor reps, or replace with an armor plate so they can protect their more expensive investment. Mostly glad to see the the regen of gal heavy suits go up from 1. 1 is essentially irrelevant as a gal racial bonus as is doesn't effect your fitting in any way. Not for an armor tanking suit with that high of an HP value. I'd also say that the Gal scout suit being changed from 3 to 2 might be too much. It means that your suits only trait it has better than any other suits (other suits have better stamina/regen, shield recharge rate/delay, bonus armor, bonus speed, and/or fitting) is 0.5 better than the next competitor. Not enough to effect my decision of whether or not to pick that suit over others. 0.5 for the Cal scout is also bad because it means that it's base 70 armor takes 2 min and 20 seconds to regenerate 2 min and 54 seconds if you have the armor skill. Technically better than nothing, but not by enough to make me wanna get rid of a reactive plate. A complex one now regens 153 armor you have (with max skills) in 51 seconds, including the 66 extra HP it gives you. I suggest for scouts the following: 1 Cal, 1.5 Amarr, 2 Min, 3 Gal. Enough for Cals to regen their base hp in 70- 87 seconds, and enough of a gap for us Gals to feel like this is a relevant suit bonus over the competition and possibly effect your fitting as a unique bonus should. TLDR: I think this is an overall good idea, but I think the numbers might need to be looked into again. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Cass Caul 1263	Posted - 2014.10.22 04:37:00 - [36] - Quote Disregarding the discussion right now and focusing on this quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 Every toon I make in EVE is and always will be Intaki. That's my New Eden RP. Gallente Scout was my very first suit. It was my only Protosuit in CHrome. I skilled it up to level 5 on May 6th 2013. On 1.8's release, I took that up to level 5 before I did anything else with my SP.. I am a Gallente fangirl. I am a Scout aficionada. I have never liked the Scout having the highest repair rate of the Gallente Suits. As someone that only puts repair modules on X-I Assault suits even as a such an extreme fan I thought 3 was too high. As the percentage of armor that suit could have was too much Of Course, DUST isn't EVE. DUST has never had enough updates where they add enough skills to keep you from maxing out a race. There simply aren't enough things in DUST to spend SP on without branch out into other racial suits. I like that everything will have some innate armor repair. But these are the things I don't like: Minmatar seems too high. Even if it is regen focused, it's not an armor favoring suit. Having Low armor HP to begin with, it clearly has the highest percentage of armor regen. If Gallente are the kings of armor regen then they should hold that over the Minmatar Suits. I would rather see the Minmatar and Amarr numbers switched. With a number close, but below Amarr, and them favoring passive armor tanking, it's not nearly as powerful as the Gallente yet still useful. The other thing I do not like is the Assault value being lower than the Logistics for non-Gallente suits. The Assault now have a much higher HP value than the Logistics. It should also have a higher armor repair rate. On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Jeanne D'Arc IV Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 17	Posted - 2014.10.22 04:47:00 - [37] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 I am liking what I'm seeing here which is an accomplishment because it takes a bit to impress me. I do have something to pick at though, some of which has already been addressed: -The Amarr and Caldari Sentinels shouldn't have more than their Assault counterparts because they are the two HP tank races. I'm fine with where Gallente and Minmatar Sentinels are. Minmatar is especially fine because their heavies are Hybrid tankers anyway and being an odd ball in general but that's the beauty of Minmatar. -A previous person suggested a overall 1.5 more hp/s for Gallente but that's a bit much. If anything at the most give them .5 more hp/s if we even need that but I see where he's coming from. As far as everything else is concerned this list is Sgt Kirk Approved. Hopefully this will bring out Caldari suits that actually fit their suits like they should. I'd love to see some diversity. Has a gallente role player myself too and with all respect i give to you Kirk, im disagreeing with you r addition you want to make, i thinkk the number proposed by Rattari are fine except that i will give more rep to assault than sentinnel, cal assault are not that good since they dont have enough pg to fit anything proto like gal can, my opinion, have a good day
Cass Caul 1265	Posted - 2014.10.22 04:50:00 - [38] - Quote Revised edition. After taking a look at the discussion so far I've changed my mind a bit. I think the Gallente numbers should be buffed by +0.5 Still a reduction to the scout, which I believe to be a good thing. And then it becomes a whole armor HP over the other suits. Alternatively, reduce all the others by -0.5 but keep the minimum at 1. Even if that causes the Caldari Scout, Logi, and Assault to be at the same level because of the minimum. As to reiterait what I've said in other posts, the protosuits on only my main character are (in order of acquired since 1.8): Gal Scout, Cal Commando, Min Scout, Cal Scout, Gal Logi, Amarr Scout, Gal Assault, Cal Assault, Cal Sent, Amarr Sent The ones on my main at ADV are: the rest of them The protosuits I have through the rest of my alts are: everything but Min-Commando which is only at lvl 4 I mean, I am very biased in my opinion. I always want the suits that I use to be buffed. How strange that I'd want 19 role suits buffed. On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Cass Caul 1265	Posted - 2014.10.22 04:57:00 - [39] - Quote Jeanne D'Arc IV wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: I am liking what I'm seeing here which is an accomplishment because it takes a bit to impress me. I do have something to pick at though, some of which has already been addressed: -The Amarr and Caldari Sentinels shouldn't have more than their Assault counterparts because they are the two HP tank races. I'm fine with where Gallente and Minmatar Sentinels are. Minmatar is especially fine because their heavies are Hybrid tankers anyway and being an odd ball in general but that's the beauty of Minmatar. -A previous person suggested a overall 1.5 more hp/s for Gallente but that's a bit much. If anything at the most give them .5 more hp/s if we even need that but I see where he's coming from. As far as everything else is concerned this list is Sgt Kirk Approved. Hopefully this will bring out Caldari suits that actually fit their suits like they should. I'd love to see some diversity. Has a gallente role player myself too and with all respect i give to you Kirk, im disagreeing with you r addition you want to make, i thinkk the number proposed by Rattari are fine except that i will give more rep to assault than sentinnel, cal assault are not that good since they dont have enough pg to fit anything proto like gal can, my opinion, have a good day Percentage based, the Assault will recover faster. I think that's the balancing point in Sentinels having a higher number. I like it. But on fitting capacity. As someone with Core Upgrades V, Engineering V, and Electronics V and Assault Operations V in both of those assault suits you mentioned. I can say that I have no problem fitting whatever mods I feel like on my gk.0 and ck.0 Granted, I admitted I don't run Armor Repair modules And I don't fit Recharges/Energizers. The pure tank I get (Or mobility from biotics on Gal or damage on Cal) is the reason I don't do that, but those modules are wayyyy too cost inefficient. So maybe your fitting troubles come from them. I am not sure. I am sure that I don't even pay attention to what I throw on my suits when I make them because I don't have to worry about fitting space. On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 439	Posted - 2014.10.22 05:01:00 - [40] - Quote Dunno about the bonus on the cal sentinel. I would prefer to have more shields at the cost of less armor on the caldari sentinel. 1.5HP/s and only 1 low slot at proto is not really going to be helpfull. Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!

Cass Caul 1267	Posted - 2014.10.22 05:16:00 - [41] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Dunno about the bonus on the cal sentinel. I would prefer to have more shields at the cost of less armor on the caldari sentinel. 1.5HP/s and only 1 low slot at proto is not really going to be helpfull. In all of DUST, there should never be a single dropsuit or vehicle that only has 1 low slots. Low Slots are the most potent slots across the board and only having 1 is just unbalanced. On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17449	Posted - 2014.10.22 06:39:00 - [42] - Quote Love the feedback though. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2071	Posted - 2014.10.22 06:47:00 - [43] - Quote I can dig losing 1 hp a sec rep on my Gallente scout, keeping 2 rep would be fine by me. I think its more of a case of everyone at least needs some way to regenerate armour slowly over time no matter how slow so I love this idea. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1976	Posted - 2014.10.22 06:53:00 - [44] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 I am liking what I'm seeing here which is an accomplishment because it takes a bit to impress me. I do have something to pick at though, some of which has already been addressed: -The Amarr and Caldari Sentinels shouldn't have more than their Assault counterparts because they are the two HP tank races. I'm fine with where Gallente and Minmatar Sentinels are. Minmatar is especially fine because their heavies are Hybrid tankers anyway and being an odd ball in general but that's the beauty of Minmatar. -A previous person suggested a overall 1.5 more hp/s for Gallente but that's a bit much. If anything at the most give them .5 more hp/s if we even need that but I see where he's coming from. As far as everything else is concerned this list is Sgt Kirk Approved. Hopefully this will bring out Caldari suits that actually fit their suits like they should. I'd love to see some diversity. I won't lie, I long to drop my reactive plate for a kincat or something equally worthwhile. Not having any armor regen just is impractical even on the most dedicated shield suit. As it stands, I think the numbers are good as is, save for swapping Assault and Sentinel values. It's not enough that A dedicated armor tank will make use of it solo, but it does definitely help shield tanks not worry about their armor as much. Mercs whine about the rail rifle but refuse to shield tank to counter it. But that's none of my business.
Francois Sanchez Prima Gallicus 120	Posted - 2014.10.22 07:00:00 - [45] - Quote Nice, I would give a better regen to Assaults compared to sentinels though
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 600	Posted - 2014.10.22 07:07:00 - [46] - Quote This is wrong. Adding armor reps to caldari suits just highlights the problem with shield tanking. Shield tanking needs to be a self sufficient and viable form of defense that provides it's users with a level of satisfactory confidence in their overall survivability. Armor tankers do not say "oh no, my shields are gone, I need to wait for them to recharge now or I'll die" Shield tankers need to be able to say " as long as I'm alive, I can fight." Shield tankers should never have to worry about not having armor. You need to improve shield tanking, instead of giving armor reps to a purely shield tanking race. Give caldari suits a damage threshold like vehicles have for a start.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 789	Posted - 2014.10.22 07:12:00 - [47] - Quote Some issues here: - Buffing armor reps on Caldari suits seems counter-intuitive. Are we supposed to be fitting an armor tank on those now? (For reference: None of my Caldari suits have armor plates or reps so far.) - There's a one-sided element of powercreep here. All armor tankers are being buffed by a certain amount where as shield based suits are affected muss less, both in absolute numbers and in effect on gameplay due to the limited armor buffer. Don't get me wrong, my Amarr and Gallente suits would love this, but once in a while I like to mess around in my Caldari Assault and Sentinel, too. What was the core problem you were trying to solve? If you state that we can maybe discuss alternative measures.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 243	Posted - 2014.10.22 07:39:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 Are these base stats or per level? If thse are the max stats then good, i like it. If not, there are glaring issues. At proto Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 20 Logi 17.5 Sentinel 15 Assault 17.5 Scout 10 Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 17.5 Logi 15 Sentinel 12.5 Assault 10 Scout 7.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 15 Logi 12.5 Sentinel 10 Assault 7.5 Scout 5 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 12.5 Logi 10 Sentinel 7.5 Assault 5 Scout 2.5 You see Rattati, you weren't here before fanfest, when the entire community complained and whined about Logistic suits geting 1 hp regen per level. Game breaking everyone who wasn't a Logi said, so it was removed from all logistic suits save the Gallente. Pros: No absolute need for repair armor plates, great for solo players, more fitting variety for low slots Cons: A disgustedly disproportionate advantage over new players / a huge disparity between each level and race, fitting complex reps, wide open for exploitation (can still stack reps ontop of these stats) destroys game balance (armor is supposed to be high HP slow regen, shield is low hp high regen, with these stats armor suits have he abillity to out regen the shields on shield suits). So if you want to give proto suits such a gigantic armor rep advantage over new players man go for it. With complex reps th gallent suits will out regen the shields. I love armor tanking, my logis are getting a huge amount of love, but you've got to tone it down. These numbers are a bit ridiculous. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3265	Posted - 2014.10.22 07:47:00 - [49] - Quote A big part of how tanking works for dropsuits in Dust, and how it differs from EVE, is that there is rarely an instance where you pure tank. With how the HP spread works in Dust, the existence of flux grenades, and the rate at which shields recharge, all dropsuits rely on their shield and armor at some point. That being said, it seems beneficial that all suits get some form of help in regards to dealing with armor, without necessarily needing to fit an armor repair. This is particularly important for shield tankers who will most likely need armor reps at some point, but the loss of low slots used for an armor repairer in lieu of more important modules (Since low slots are so important) can be very detrimental to a shield tanker. Overall I think this is a positive idea, as it helps out shield tankers quite a bit and helps solidify the Gallente theme of hardcore armor reppers. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3265	Posted - 2014.10.22 07:51:00 - [50] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Are these base stats or per level? If thse are the max stats then good, i like it. If not, there are glaring issues. At proto It's the base built in rep, not a bonus, so not per level. All suits will naturally get those reps, regardless of skill or level. Much akin to how Gallente suits already have a passive rep built in, this simply expands that to all other suits. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9009	Posted - 2014.10.22 07:59:00 - [51] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Some issues here: - Buffing armor reps on Caldari suits seems counter-intuitive. Are we supposed to be fitting an armor tank on those now? (For reference: None of my Caldari suits have armor plates or reps so far.) - There's a one-sided element of powercreep here. All armor tankers are being buffed by a certain amount where as shield based suits are affected muss less, both in absolute numbers and in effect on gameplay due to the limited armor buffer. Don't get me wrong, my Amarr and Gallente suits would love this, but once in a while I like to mess around in my Caldari Assault and Sentinel, too. What was the core problem you were trying to solve? If you state that we can maybe discuss alternative measures. Helping New players that don't understand that they need to rep Helping Shield tankers use their low slots for regulators instead of always allocating one to a reactive/rep for that minimum 1hp/s Helping versatility, ferroscale usually gets dumped for a reactive, kincats, etc. Having a mandatory slot requirement to be reps is not fun "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3398	Posted - 2014.10.22 07:59:00 - [52] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 Are these base stats or per level? If thse are the max stats then good, i like it. If not, there are glaring issues. These are native suit stats they are not role/race/class skill bound (if the proceeding is not true I have completely misunderstood the OP ). Stated another way, the numbers in the OP are not incremental, they are a flat effect. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 244	Posted - 2014.10.22 08:11:00 - [53] - Quote Cool. Then I'm in. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 605	Posted - 2014.10.22 08:28:00 - [54] - Quote Can we have all scout shield regen reduced to being the lowest since the scout armor regen is the lowest?
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3398	Posted - 2014.10.22 08:34:00 - [55] - Quote Since I know some folks don't have the inclination to read through entire threads once they start getting larger I am re-quoting this contextual information here to provide ease of reference for all. Cross Atu wrote: EDIT: Numbers for context Rep Mod Base / Rep Mod with lvl 5 skills STD - 2.5 HP/s / 3.125 HP/s ADV - 5.00 HP/s / 6.25 HP/s PRO - 7.50 HP/s / 9.375 HP/s In other words: The highest proposed value, Gal Commando at 4 provides fewer reps than a single unskilled advanced repair module. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
David Spd Caldari State 165	Posted - 2014.10.22 08:42:00 - [56] - Quote I agree with the general concept. Actual numbers I'll leave up to other people. Silver Strike44 wrote: First. "Look at how special I am and how my opinion is somehow more important since I rushed a response after a dev!" Grow up. --> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <-- "Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3833	Posted - 2014.10.22 09:12:00 - [57] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I guess my view of roles would be that Heavies had more innate shields/armor, to withstand some damage, but that they should have LESS regen than an Assault, who would be more cover based. What is the rationale for giving sentinals more regen than Assaults while at the same time giving them higher HP? Something I thought of as I pasted this, Assault should be over Sents, for fast recovery. I must respectfully disagree... Just kidding. This statement IMHO is spot on. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1851	Posted - 2014.10.22 09:13:00 - [58] - Quote This is mainly as a aid to new players and is really no different to the usual health regen that a lot of FPS have. I have no problem with it as long as Gallente remained the regen kings and the other to lesser degree according to game lore. Game lore is important but as I've always said if it gets in the way of the NPE, it should be dropped, just incase anyone objects to Caldari getting any kind of native regen. CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 622	Posted - 2014.10.22 09:22:00 - [59] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I'm confused as to why armour suits need this at all. There is no reason to have natural passive armour reps as well. ITT True whines some more about how Dust is not an exact copy of EVE. Seriously dude. Stop. The future equivalent of naval warfare isn't going to be like the future equivalent of infantry combat. Besides that, they are completely different genres. It seems like you only show up on the forums nowadays to whine about how Amarr don't have an HAV yet, and point out when something isn't just like EVE. Swag-suit4lyfe!
Haerr Clone Manque 1676	Posted - 2014.10.22 10:25:00 - [60] - Quote Yes, please. +1 Haerr's huge list of wish for 1.9 - 1.10: Fix mouse support.

Haerr Clone Manque 1676	Posted - 2014.10.22 10:43:00 - [61] - Quote Hey Rattati! Can we have a spreadsheet with: Race Suit Armor at max skills Innate Repair Rate Time from 0 Armor to Max ? I think this could highlight an issue with the very low repair numbers on Caldari Sentinel Haerr's huge list of wish for 1.9 - 1.10: Fix mouse support.
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2926	Posted - 2014.10.22 10:46:00 - [62] - Quote How about implementing something like self repair with the rep tool, at a reduced efficiency? Forcing you to be stationary to repair your armor (only possible out of combat). This would give shield tankers the possibility to rep their armor up without giving them passive reps. Fix mouse support in Dust 514! How to do it: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=965407#post965407
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 790	Posted - 2014.10.22 10:46:00 - [63] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Helping New players that don't understand that they need to rep Helping Shield tankers use their low slots for regulators instead of always allocating one to a reactive/rep for that minimum 1hp/s Helping versatility, ferroscale usually gets dumped for a reactive, kincats, etc. Having a mandatory slot requirement to be reps is not fun Thanks for going into more detail. 1. Can you explain how native repping conveys the need to fit a repper? A shield suit needs no repper and armor starter suits have them prefitted, right? If you're worrying about new players that select a shield-heavy race and never learn about reppers I'd guess the 'selected race <-> starter fit race' link should be broken up so everyone can see what a shield and armor based suit looks like. On the other hand, by the time a player moves on from his own race's suits he will probably have gotten a picture of the available modules in the game. 2. Personally, if I had innate reps I'd drop a regulator to fit more armor on my Caldari suits. Isn't that the logical thing to do? This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be provocative here. If the issue is that shield-heavy suits can't utilize a certain part of their tank in their second or third engagement we can maybe discuss shoveling some more suit-armor hp into suit-shields. 3. There is no mandatory slot requirement as far as I'm aware? My Caldari suits work with no reps? I know that running around with 50 armor hp missing is concerning, but by that time I'm on a 5 kill streak. Does anyone really complain about not being on full-hp anymore in their 3rd or n-th engagement? I don't think our main focus should be balancing suits for their ability to go on 10-kill streaks.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4847	Posted - 2014.10.22 11:10:00 - [64] - Quote Three things you need to keep in mind: 1. Gallente suits should have a SIGNIFICANT increase in armor repair over all other races. Having it only be +0.5 from Minmatar suits is a really bad idea as the passive armor repair is currently the Gallente racial bonus (Minmatar have stamina regen, Caldari have shield regen, Amarr have high base stamina, Gallente have armor repair) 2. Speaking of significant, you shouldn't have each step down/up be the same number step. It should be more of a modifier to see a very clear difference in each step up. The problem with a static number is that 3.5 is pretty much as good as 4...while an increase from 0.5 to 1 is TWICE as good (this is just an example, not a proposal) Commandos - x3 Logistics - x2 Assaults - x2 Scouts - x1.5 Sentinels - x1 Gallente - x1.5 Minmatar - x1.0 Amarr - x0.75 Caldari - x0.5 3. Caldari suits should have barely any regen at all. They already gain a massive increase in shield recharge (which is only then further increased by energizers) because it is their racial bonus, so having more than 2 armor repair on a caldari suit seems like a very bad idea to me, especially when 3 armor repair is "just enough" That said, I feel that all suits should have at least 1 hp/s armor regen no matter what. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 95	Posted - 2014.10.22 11:16:00 - [65] - Quote I just want to highlight that your stats don't include BASIC (light medium or heavy) dropsuit, while a lot of players (new in particular) make the mistake to put the basic at 5. You must think about them, otherwise, basic which aren't already in good shape will be torn apart much more by racials. Eve 21 day Trial Dust 514 win 5M ISK for 100.000WP
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4847	Posted - 2014.10.22 11:19:00 - [66] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: How about implementing something like self repair with the rep tool, at a reduced efficiency? Forcing you to be stationary to repair your armor (only possible out of combat). This would give shield tankers the possibility to rep their armor up without giving them passive reps. We already have this, it's called a compact nanohive :P Or any of the armor rep hives (although those use up quite a bit of cpu...kinda bad for a shield suit) 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2926	Posted - 2014.10.22 11:27:00 - [67] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: How about implementing something like self repair with the rep tool, at a reduced efficiency? Forcing you to be stationary to repair your armor (only possible out of combat). This would give shield tankers the possibility to rep their armor up without giving them passive reps. We already have this, it's called a compact nanohive :P Or any of the armor rep hives (although those use up quite a bit of cpu...kinda bad for a shield suit) These you can stand on top of and shoot other people while using... the tryhards' ultimate tool. Fix mouse support in Dust 514! How to do it: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=965407#post965407
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 601	Posted - 2014.10.22 11:28:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: Some issues here: - Buffing armor reps on Caldari suits seems counter-intuitive. Are we supposed to be fitting an armor tank on those now? (For reference: None of my Caldari suits have armor plates or reps so far.) - There's a one-sided element of powercreep here. All armor tankers are being buffed by a certain amount where as shield based suits are affected muss less, both in absolute numbers and in effect on gameplay due to the limited armor buffer. Don't get me wrong, my Amarr and Gallente suits would love this, but once in a while I like to mess around in my Caldari Assault and Sentinel, too. What was the core problem you were trying to solve? If you state that we can maybe discuss alternative measures. Helping New players that don't understand that they need to rep Helping Shield tankers use their low slots for regulators instead of always allocating one to a reactive/rep for that minimum 1hp/s Helping versatility, ferroscale usually gets dumped for a reactive, kincats, etc. Having a mandatory slot requirement to be reps is not fun I dont understand why as a Caldari player, I need to armor rep? I don't use armor mods at all. why not provide a better NPE to highlight this? Why are we using reactive/rep instead of regulators? for our tiny armor base? our armor shouldnt even be considered as part of our defense. why is armor reps mandatory on a shield tanking suit? our shield tanks must not be strong enough if this is the case.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 601	Posted - 2014.10.22 11:37:00 - [69] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Helping New players that don't understand that they need to rep Helping Shield tankers use their low slots for regulators instead of always allocating one to a reactive/rep for that minimum 1hp/s Helping versatility, ferroscale usually gets dumped for a reactive, kincats, etc. Having a mandatory slot requirement to be reps is not fun Thanks for going into more detail. 1. Can you explain how native repping conveys the need to fit a repper? A shield suit needs no repper and armor starter suits have them prefitted, right? If you're worrying about new players that select a shield-heavy race and never learn about reppers I'd guess the 'selected race <-> starter fit race' link should be broken up so everyone can see what a shield and armor based suit looks like. On the other hand, by the time a player moves on from his own race's suits he will probably have gotten a picture of the available modules in the game. 2. Personally, if I had innate reps I'd drop a regulator to fit more armor on my Caldari suits. Isn't that the logical thing to do? This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be provocative here. If the issue is that shield-heavy suits can't utilize a certain part of their tank in their second or third engagement we can maybe discuss shoveling some more suit-armor hp into suit-shields. 3. There is no mandatory slot requirement as far as I'm aware? My Caldari suits work with no reps? I know that running around with 50 armor hp missing is concerning, but by that time I'm on a 5 kill streak. Does anyone really complain about not being on full-hp anymore in their 3rd or n-th engagement? I don't think our main focus should be balancing suits for their ability to go on 10-kill streaks. good points. adding armor attributes to shield tanks may cause some people to think that all suits should hybrid tank. which is what I thought we wanted to avoid a few months ago. i can have zero armor and still be effective. i know that as long as im alive and have ammo i can fight. i just have to be careful about taking damage. recovering 500 shields never takes me more than ~7 to 10 seconds. and most of the time i can work with less than that. if youre getting knocked into armor as caldari, then youre doing it wrong. only time im in armor is when i get greedy with the kills, and dont recover my shields in between fighting multiple targets at once.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 611	Posted - 2014.10.22 11:42:00 - [70] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: Some issues here: - Buffing armor reps on Caldari suits seems counter-intuitive. Are we supposed to be fitting an armor tank on those now? (For reference: None of my Caldari suits have armor plates or reps so far.) - There's a one-sided element of powercreep here. All armor tankers are being buffed by a certain amount where as shield based suits are affected muss less, both in absolute numbers and in effect on gameplay due to the limited armor buffer. Don't get me wrong, my Amarr and Gallente suits would love this, but once in a while I like to mess around in my Caldari Assault and Sentinel, too. What was the core problem you were trying to solve? If you state that we can maybe discuss alternative measures. Helping New players that don't understand that they need to rep Helping Shield tankers use their low slots for regulators instead of always allocating one to a reactive/rep for that minimum 1hp/s Helping versatility, ferroscale usually gets dumped for a reactive, kincats, etc. Having a mandatory slot requirement to be reps is not fun I dont understand why as a Caldari player, I need to armor rep? I don't use armor mods at all. why not provide a better NPE to highlight this? Why are we using reactive/rep instead of regulators? for our tiny armor base? our armor shouldnt even be considered as part of our defense. why is armor reps mandatory on a shield tanking suit? our shield tanks must not be strong enough if this is the case. Your complaining about getting something for nothing? It's a buff to everyone except the Gal Scout.

Killer's Coys Prima Gallicus 126	Posted - 2014.10.22 11:53:00 - [71] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: Some issues here: - Buffing armor reps on Caldari suits seems counter-intuitive. Are we supposed to be fitting an armor tank on those now? (For reference: None of my Caldari suits have armor plates or reps so far.) - There's a one-sided element of powercreep here. All armor tankers are being buffed by a certain amount where as shield based suits are affected muss less, both in absolute numbers and in effect on gameplay due to the limited armor buffer. Don't get me wrong, my Amarr and Gallente suits would love this, but once in a while I like to mess around in my Caldari Assault and Sentinel, too. What was the core problem you were trying to solve? If you state that we can maybe discuss alternative measures. Helping New players that don't understand that they need to rep Helping Shield tankers use their low slots for regulators instead of always allocating one to a reactive/rep for that minimum 1hp/s Helping versatility, ferroscale usually gets dumped for a reactive, kincats, etc. Having a mandatory slot requirement to be reps is not fun I'm writting as a Caldari assault I really like this idea, personnaly, I love having a few armor rep (194HP armor isn't useless at all) so yes, if I could get 1hp/s armor rep it would be very helping, for new players, and for old. As you said, it "adds a low mod" That's a good idea. (and for the first post) I think the number are good. Example with the Gal assault 2HP/s isn't enought, but 3 is good, more ins't very balanced, because you could with it have almost the same rep/s as the caldari shield regen.... And for the Gal scout, I wanted that changing for ages ! Good idea too Logibro, you're my boy
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Dark Taboo 1765	Posted - 2014.10.22 11:55:00 - [72] - Quote I'm all for it but, shouldn't we be making shields more viable ? I am full armor tanker on all my suits and I think that shield tanking in dust is still not quite right and I haven't even bothered to train into them in the years I have played dust. Overall I think its a great change but will only further the dichotomy between armor and shields; leaving shield behind by a hood margin. Tread lightly around this change since it will open up the ability to buffer tank without reppers on and, on some suits, an extra plate would make them a little unbalanced. TL;DR Love it, potentially destabalizes balance, shied need to be heavily prioritized after this change Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 603	Posted - 2014.10.22 12:01:00 - [73] - Quote voidfaction wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: Some issues here: - Buffing armor reps on Caldari suits seems counter-intuitive. Are we supposed to be fitting an armor tank on those now? (For reference: None of my Caldari suits have armor plates or reps so far.) - There's a one-sided element of powercreep here. All armor tankers are being buffed by a certain amount where as shield based suits are affected muss less, both in absolute numbers and in effect on gameplay due to the limited armor buffer. Don't get me wrong, my Amarr and Gallente suits would love this, but once in a while I like to mess around in my Caldari Assault and Sentinel, too. What was the core problem you were trying to solve? If you state that we can maybe discuss alternative measures. Helping New players that don't understand that they need to rep Helping Shield tankers use their low slots for regulators instead of always allocating one to a reactive/rep for that minimum 1hp/s Helping versatility, ferroscale usually gets dumped for a reactive, kincats, etc. Having a mandatory slot requirement to be reps is not fun I dont understand why as a Caldari player, I need to armor rep? I don't use armor mods at all. why not provide a better NPE to highlight this? Why are we using reactive/rep instead of regulators? for our tiny armor base? our armor shouldnt even be considered as part of our defense. why is armor reps mandatory on a shield tanking suit? our shield tanks must not be strong enough if this is the case. Your complaining about getting something for nothing? It's a buff to everyone except the Gal Scout. im complaining that we are going backwards. we wanted to avoid hybrid tanking. now everyone can stack plates and extenders. it'll kill variety in dropsuit fitting but free stuff is free stuff so ill take it
SponkSponkSponk WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1083	Posted - 2014.10.22 12:45:00 - [74] - Quote The idea is to give all suits some armour repair. Not necessarily give them adequate armour repair. Dust/Eve transfers
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1856	Posted - 2014.10.22 12:58:00 - [75] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: The idea is to give all suits some armour repair. Not necessarily give them adequate armour repair. Pretty much this. CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3403	Posted - 2014.10.22 13:03:00 - [76] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: 2. Personally, if I had innate reps I'd drop a regulator to fit more armor on my Caldari suits. Isn't that the logical thing to do? This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be provocative here. I'm not a Dev (clearly lol) but in answer to this particular point, I have gotten feedback several times from shield focused players (running Caldari suits or occasionally Minmatar) who want to fit a regulator (or a second regulator) but feel at least some on board reps are essentially mandatory for long term engagements (not talking constant sustained fighting, just long spans in/near combat zones without death). While there may well be some who would fit more armor in the proposed context, as well as some who simply refuse to fit armor for their own style and/or RP reasons, the are certainly a segment of players who wish to devote their lows to Shields rather than Armor, so long as they have at least a minimal level of on board reps. The proposed change would provide exactly that. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Horizon Limit Nexus Balusa Horizon 79	Posted - 2014.10.22 13:10:00 - [77] - Quote I can't believe in this thread!!! Here my proposal with some buff and nerf in a easy to read format. I've given more reps to: All commando, except Amarr which already have more HP. Commando lack of modules, they should have better stats. All logi, to have better surbavibility and help other suits to stay alive. Min scout beacause its lack of EW bonus I've given less reps to: Gal assault: it's already fine with 2 imo, a little buff is good, but i would not go too far from where it is now. Min sentinel: to not pass over assault rep which is fine imo. Amarr sentinel: 1 is enough, it is already the sentinel with more HP. Are minmatar communists?
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3403	Posted - 2014.10.22 13:13:00 - [78] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: I'm all for it but, shouldn't we be making shields more viable ? I am full armor tanker on all my suits and I think that shield tanking in dust is still not quite right and I haven't even bothered to train into them in the years I have played dust. Overall I think its a great change but will only further the dichotomy between armor and shields; leaving shield behind by a hood margin. Tread lightly around this change since it will open up the ability to buffer tank without reppers on and, on some suits, an extra plate would make them a little unbalanced. TL;DR Love it, potentially destabalizes balance, shied need to be heavily prioritized after this change Agree that it wouldn't hurt to look into shields. Honestly I think that is true regardless of this change happening or not. As to buffer tanking without fitted reppers, I don't see any numbers high enough to suggest that would be truly viable (unless you are hanging out with a Logi pal ) The Gal Commando (highest proposed native value, along with a solid possible buffer) would take 2 minutes 5 seconds to fully rep its armor using only native reps (and assuming max skills). This time is even longer if the Commando is fit with any plates. Over 2 minutes out of combat/taking no armor damage doesn't seem terribly viable as a sole/planned tactical recourse. I am not saying it provides no value, simply that in my view it does not lend itself to meaningfully higher levels of effective pure buffer tanking. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 791	Posted - 2014.10.22 13:29:00 - [79] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: 2. Personally, if I had innate reps I'd drop a regulator to fit more armor on my Caldari suits. Isn't that the logical thing to do? This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be provocative here. I'm not a Dev (clearly lol) but in answer to this particular point, I have gotten feedback several times from shield focused players (running Caldari suits or occasionally Minmatar) who want to fit a regulator (or a second regulator) but feel at least some on board reps are essentially mandatory for long term engagements (not talking constant sustained fighting, just long spans in/near combat zones without death). While there may well be some who would fit more armor in the proposed context, as well as some who simply refuse to fit armor for their own style and/or RP reasons, the are certainly a segment of players who wish to devote their lows to Shields rather than Armor, so long as they have at least a minimal level of on board reps. The proposed change would provide exactly that. Cheers, Cross Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. There is indeed in issue with the ability of shield suits to maintain full combat effectivity through a chain of firefights. If I want to be able to go on a 30 kill streak in a shield suit I'd better bring repair nanohives. And if I bring those I may just as well fit armor. However, I don't think innate reps are going to fix any of that. Those that want to be able to fight forever without dieing will keep fitting armor and repair nanohives since something like 2 hp/s isn't going to be enough anyway. And they will need the ammo too. Anyone else will just downgrade their repper and upgrade their plates. Then we have the issue that we're introducing innate armor reps across the board because we're trying to make a few Caldari Assaults fit more regulators - which, in a weird twist of fate, receive the smallest rep bonus of all. So in an attempt to make CalAssault fit more regulators we buff Minmatar Commando innate reps. This hardly seems like a targeted change there. For some reason in the currently proposed numbers all armor based suits are receiving bigger buffs than shield suits. I can't really see who asked for that. Again, I don't mind the changes. I'll just eat that rep-buff and keep stacking more armor. I can turn those buffs into better performance on my G/1 and A/1 pub fits. However, I'm trying to say that this change probably won't have the impact you're expecting it to have.
Al the destroyer NECROM0NGERS 197	Posted - 2014.10.22 13:34:00 - [80] - Quote Daddy like Daddy real like!

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8073	Posted - 2014.10.22 14:10:00 - [81] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: I'm all for it but, shouldn't we be making shields more viable ? I am full armor tanker on all my suits and I think that shield tanking in dust is still not quite right and I haven't even bothered to train into them in the years I have played dust. Overall I think its a great change but will only further the dichotomy between armor and shields; leaving shield behind by a hood margin. Tread lightly around this change since it will open up the ability to buffer tank without reppers on and, on some suits, an extra plate would make them a little unbalanced. TL;DR Love it, potentially destabalizes balance, shied need to be heavily prioritized after this change There are definitely some things that need to be worked out with shields but it's nowhere near as terrible as people would like to believe, at least on Caldari suits. Regulators are my worst enemy when I play against Mex or any actual Caldari suit in FW. They make use of the Regulators and Rechargers to where their down time from battle is less than 7 seconds. Keep in mind these players try to keep their range which makes it even worse for me. I just wished people played like them more often instead of crying that shields are tremendously far behind shields (I'm not saying you specifically, just people in general) CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3405	Posted - 2014.10.22 14:32:00 - [82] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: 2. Personally, if I had innate reps I'd drop a regulator to fit more armor on my Caldari suits. Isn't that the logical thing to do? This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be provocative here. I'm not a Dev (clearly lol) but in answer to this particular point, I have gotten feedback several times from shield focused players (running Caldari suits or occasionally Minmatar) who want to fit a regulator (or a second regulator) but feel at least some on board reps are essentially mandatory for long term engagements (not talking constant sustained fighting, just long spans in/near combat zones without death). While there may well be some who would fit more armor in the proposed context, as well as some who simply refuse to fit armor for their own style and/or RP reasons, the are certainly a segment of players who wish to devote their lows to Shields rather than Armor, so long as they have at least a minimal level of on board reps. The proposed change would provide exactly that. Cheers, Cross Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. There is indeed in issue with the ability of shield suits to maintain full combat effectivity through a chain of firefights. If I want to be able to go on a 30 kill streak in a shield suit I'd better bring repair nanohives. And if I bring those I may just as well fit armor. However, I don't think innate reps are going to fix any of that. Those that want to be able to fight forever without dieing will keep fitting armor and repair nanohives since something like 2 hp/s isn't going to be enough anyway. And they will need the ammo too. Anyone else will just downgrade their repper and upgrade their plates. Then we have the issue that we're introducing innate armor reps across the board because we're trying to make a few Caldari Assaults fit more regulators - which, in a weird twist of fate, receive the smallest rep bonus of all. So in an attempt to make CalAssault fit more regulators we buff Minmatar Commando innate reps. This hardly seems like a targeted change there. For some reason in the currently proposed numbers all armor based suits are receiving bigger buffs than shield suits. I can't really see who asked for that. Again, I don't mind the changes. I'll just eat that rep-buff and keep stacking more armor. I can turn those buffs into better performance on my G/1 and A/1 pub fits. However, I'm trying to say that this change probably won't have the impact you're expecting it to have. For what it's worth I think one of the key impacts this is slated to have is a quality of life increase for the NPE. Are there ways for players who know the ins and outs of the fittings system to optimize more with this, or for that matter despite it, if they so desire? Sure. The bias however, that I see anyway, is not to the racial ripples per se (yes this will allow some players to focus more on shields but that is not the only/main point of it), it effects the NPE. Players who do not yet understand fitting, or who are still learning the interface to some degree, will have a slightly more forgiving experience. Another effect of this scaling is to create a slightly greater role specificity within both the medium and heavy lines. Giving the Sent / Ass a buffer focused role when compared with their frame counterparts of Commando and Logi who'd gain their eHP through regen more than tank. The more light incomparables which can be incorporated into the specialist roles the greater the potential to bring many play styles to equal viability within game while not homogenizing them. As ever if I seem to have missed an aspect of what you are driving at feel free to let me know, I'm all about the communication. o7 Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
ThePlayerkyle13 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 168	Posted - 2014.10.22 15:05:00 - [83] - Quote Shouldn't Gallente have native armor repair only? That's what makes them unique from other Races as Example: Amarr - Armor Tankers Caldari - Shield Tankers Minmatar - Speed & Damage Dealers Gallente - Armor Repair Tankers Putting native armor repair on all Races Dropsuits kind of ruins the uniqueness of the Races you play as... Don't F**K with Gamers Angry Joe style
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4233	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:04:00 - [84] - Quote Overall: - Reducing the native rep on the Gal scout is a much-needed change. No, that's not the primary issue with the suit but it sure does enable/encourage brick tanking. - I also think this is a great move to help out the Commando role, with no EQ slots to fit repair hives and a dearth of slots overall, this really helps define them a little, with a high-regen role to distinguish them from the buffer of the Sents and Assaults they are sandwiched inbetween. - Also a godsend to us poor benighted logis, it's very hard to stay alive without passive reps.(I'm also very surprised that nobody has come out with the derpslayerlogi argument. Refreshing) Caldari: - Not sure what the fuss is about with the Caldari suits. Logically, the way the mechanics of Dust (which yes is not EvE) work, every suit should have at least 1 innate armor regen. With that in mind, what is the big deal about adding 1-2 hp/s to a shield suit? There will always be those who just brick tank no matter what, we can't fix that kind of behavior in everyone. As I said above, Logi's need some repair to stay alive. Commando's need a distinct edge over other suits. - So then, are people honestly saying that adding ONE hp of rep to a Cal assault is going to so fundamentally change the suit to the point that brick tanking it is the only viable fit? That's crazy talk. With the current and hopefully future tweaks to the low slot shield mods, I think that people probably will be more likely to get rid of the reactive they currently fit and put something else there. I know that when I used to use the Cal assault way back when, that's what I would have done, that reactive was annoying but very necessary. Min vs Galt: - I also agree than Minmatar seems a little high compared to Gallente. - I am certainly biased, but I'd almost think the Min and Amarr numbers should be swapped. However, I could also be talked in to reducing the Minmatar numbers to the same or close to the Amarr to keep the Gallente's distinctiveness; I'd rather do that than the opposite and buff the Gallente further, e.g., Bl4ckstar's proposal, I think the Gallente suits would be OP with that much inherent rep unless you reduced the base armor to compensate. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Viktor Hadah Jr Negative-Impact Gentlemen's.Club 5566	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:17:00 - [85] - Quote The non-gal suits base armor repair seems a bit high... EVE 21 Day Trial Templar BPOs 350Mil ISK
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1828	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:22:00 - [86] - Quote I don't think this will make a very large impact and here is the reason: 1. Even at the highest amount of armor rep, its usually a wasted slot because of such slow recovery. (further details below) 2. You are normally better off with more buffer and finding a supply depot or carrying a repping nanohive (EX: compact) than fitting armor rep mods. Reactives are a nice happy medium for shield tanking suits. 3. To put it in context. "best case scenario" Someone is shooting you with an assault rifle. You have an entire rack of complex repair mods on a GalAssault, giving you ~49 hps armor. Even with a militia assault rifle they will out (~350) DPS your armor reps. Even if you are standing on top of two Wirkomi triage hives which would give you an additional 140 hps, they would still out DPS those reps. Lets add a minmitar logi with a core focused repair tool which adds another 156 hps for a grand total of 345 hps of armor. Still not equating out to the DPS of the best case scenario. Now I understand that there are other factors involved here such as missed shots, headshots or the fact you could probably kill the person shooting you and your reps would keep you alive. My point is adding another couple armor reps is so marginal it will go largely unnoticed by anyone wanting to armor tank. It will only "free up" a slot for a plate. Rep tanking is basically impossible in the current mechanics, its just not feasible because even militia grade weapons easily alpha through your reps. On Racial fittings: Whats terrible out shield tanking is there are no low slots worth fitting besides armor tank mods or speed mods. Give us better low slot shield mods and we will more frequently fit to racial spec. Currently I feel reactives are a great place for shield tanking suits because it gives nearly the same buffer as your shield and it slowly comes back. If you really want people fitting to racial style, you need to give suits racial tanking bonuses. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4017	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:25:00 - [87] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Also a godsend to us poor benighted logis, it's very hard to stay alive without passive reps.(I'm also very surprised that nobody has come out with the derpslayerlogi argument. Refreshing) If 1 - 3 HP/sec armor rep rates make logis into slayers then we have far bigger issues to address. Also, going to agree with you regarding the Minmatar's repair rates being so close to Gallente. Gallente should trump all other race's innate repair rates by a wide margin. I would leave the Caldari and Gallente's the same (as proposed), then make the Minmatar match the proposed Amarr rates. My advice to you, playa...
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4233	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:36:00 - [88] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Also a godsend to us poor benighted logis, it's very hard to stay alive without passive reps.(I'm also very surprised that nobody has come out with the derpslayerlogi argument. Refreshing) If 1 - 3 HP/sec armor rep rates make logis into slayers then we have far bigger issues to address. Also, going to agree with you regarding the Minmatar's repair rates being so close to Gallente. Gallente should trump all other race's innate repair rates by a wide margin. I would leave the Caldari and Gallente's the same (as proposed), then make the Minmatar match the proposed Amarr rates. Do not underestimate the community's bizarre obsession with slayer logi's. I also edited my post, on further thought, equalizing the MIn/Am numbers does make the most sense. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3267	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:38:00 - [89] - Quote Haerr wrote: Hey Rattati! Can we have a spreadsheet with: Race Suit Armor at max skills Innate Repair Rate Time from 0 Armor to Max ? I think this could highlight an issue with the very low repair numbers on Caldari Sentinel Here you go https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13j77OkeazhiHNcg7C9GShM3eu0GjsfIJyGm51svxbX0/edit?usp=sharing Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4023	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:45:00 - [90] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Do not underestimate the community's bizarre obsession with slayer logi's. To be fair, The CalLogi Incident did happen. But back then, Caldari logis were given +5% Shield Extender efficacy per skill level... who the **** thought that was a good idea?! That's more that the skill bonus itself for chrissakes. My advice to you, playa...

Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 625	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:47:00 - [91] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Gallente should trump all other race's innate repair rates by a wide margin. No. Not a wide margin. If this is the case, the base Armor of the Amarr suits should trump the Gallente by a wide margin. Or the base speed of the Minmatar should trumt the others by a wide margin. It shouldn't be a wide margin. It should be marginally the best, just like the Minmatar speed, the Caldari Shield HP, or the Amarr Armor HP. Enough to insure that the suit will be the go to suit for that type of thing, no more. Swag-suit4lyfe!
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4237	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:54:00 - [92] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Do not underestimate the community's bizarre obsession with slayer logi's. To be fair, The CalLogi Incident did happen. But back then, Caldari logis were given +5% Shield Extender efficacy per skill level... who the ** thought that was a good idea?! That's more that the skill bonus itself for chrissakes. No argument there, those singlehandedly made flux grenades a thing, but the idea of passive reps coming back for logi's has been shot down about 50 times because of the boogieman slayer logi's. (Same with the Amarr logi sidearm, that suit has never been the FoTM and yet people were like "yes, get rid of the sidearm, slayerlogi mofos!) Anyway, back on topic. Pokey's spreadsheet is interesting, but I think I'm OK with the numbers still... the use of %'s sorta skews things a little as I'm not sure how big a deal that is considering the sizeable differences in raw HP numbers. Fizzer XCIV wrote: Ripley Riley wrote:** Gallente should trump all other race's innate repair rates by a wide margin. No. Not a wide margin. If this is the case, the base Armor of the Amarr suits should trump the Gallente by a wide margin. Or the base speed of the Minmatar should trumt the others by a wide margin. It shouldn't be a wide margin. It should be marginally the best, just like the Minmatar speed, the Caldari Shield HP, or the Amarr Armor HP. Enough to insure that the suit will be the go to suit for that type of thing, no more. Totally agree. The Amarr make sizeable treadeoffs for a not exactly "wide margin" of extra buffer. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3268	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:03:00 - [93] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Anyway, back on topic. Pokey's spreadsheet is interesting, but I think I'm OK with the numbers still... the use of %'s sorta skews things a little as I'm not sure how big a deal that is considering the sizeable differences in raw HP numbers. I added that more as a measure to compare within the race between different suit types, namely to show that medium frames (or more specifically Logis) rep 'faster' in terms of total HP than Heavy frames. Time to full repair and % reps per second are functions of each other anywas, so they kinda give the same information just in different forms. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
CELESTA AUNGM Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 301	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:29:00 - [94] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) I think part of the clever "trappings" of Dust 514 is the "numbers and stats" fixation---it's like the number counters who believe they have a system to winning at the casinos, ... and the casinos LOVE those patrons, because the gamblers who have addiction to "the numbers" gamble away their cash even faster than the rest of us. I CAN'T enjoy a game if I MUST be doing pencil-with-math ALL the time, so I don't want to care about the numbers listed here. It's the way the INTENT of each race's design is mentioned here that I like. I think Rattati is right on the target with each race's technology here. So, yes. If CCP can work the numbers/stats to make Min "the regen experts", Amar "the ehp beasts", the of course the Caldari and Gallente the famous "shield ying-vs-armour yang" feud-masters,... I support your idea, Rattati. Universe of good wishes for the 49, especially CCP Eterne... No story can have life without writers and publishers.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1431	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:36:00 - [95] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Anyway, back on topic. Pokey's spreadsheet is interesting, but I think I'm OK with the numbers still... the use of %'s sorta skews things a little as I'm not sure how big a deal that is considering the sizeable differences in raw HP numbers. I'm okay with shield oriented suits having a lower % value, the big problem that I see is with the cal scout which has such low armor HP (and low total hp when fit properly) already taking 3 minutes without any additional HP / repair. Looking at pokeys spreadsheet. Gallente for the most part seems acceptable, helps augment strengths without negating weaknesses. Minmatar also seems largely acceptable, due to their somewhat wonky slot layouts on lower slotted suits, while logi value seems high I know that a lot like to mix a reactive or std armor plate in with a shield regulator or two so they can better stand behind their attack dogs. Amarr also doesn't really have any issues, Yes the numbers show that they take a long time but that's the tradeoff for having crazy hp values - most amarr like to fit 1-2 armor repairers so it should be okay. Caldari points of concern are with sentinels, assaults and scouts. While I'm aware that most cal assaults like to toss a single reactive plate on their suits that's really only ideal at proto, with a value of 1.5 it would be a lot more incentivising to put a regulator on without feeling like you're being 'penalised' for not dual tanking your suit at bsc and adv. Cal scouts have such low armor that it shouldn't take close to 3 minutes to pull it back (assuming you survive a fight with 0 hp). I'd be more in favor of a value of .75 as that potentially allows you to use the low slot you might have spent on a reactive plate instead on a regulator or dampener, once again making you not feel 'bad' for not dual tanking your suit. Cal sentinels are in a bit of an odd place as they only 'technically' don't need a regulator (it is still a large QoL improvement for them) the problem I see is that with such high armor values and long base repair rates they're still essentially told 'you need to fit a repairer or reactive plate'. There's some issues with this suit in general (atrocious cpu, flux grenades being disproportionately powerful) but I still think that the value here is a bit too low. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3270	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:40:00 - [96] - Quote Updated Sheet with Mina's suggestion for comparison purposes. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4028	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:44:00 - [97] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Gallente should trump all other race's innate repair rates by a wide margin. No. Not a wide margin. If this is the case, the base Armor of the Amarr suits should trump the Gallente by a wide margin. Or the base speed of the Minmatar should trumt the others by a wide margin. It shouldn't be a wide margin. It should be marginally the best, just like the Minmatar speed, the Caldari Shield HP, or the Amarr Armor HP. Enough to insure that the suit will be the go to suit for that type of thing, no more. Totally agree. The Amarr make sizeable treadeoffs for a not exactly "wide margin" of extra buffer. Amarr armor HP does trump the Gallente armor HP by a noticeable amount. Look at the assault dropsuits. Amarr: 315, Gallente: 275. That is a 13% difference in the Amarr's favor. We could widen that more by increasing Amarr armor to 335; making it an 18% difference*. Amarr are supposed to be buffer tank gods anyway. My advice to you, playa...
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3270	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:48:00 - [98] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Look at the assault dropsuits. Amarr: 315, Gallente: 275. That is a 13% difference in the Amarr's favor. We could widen that more by increasing Amarr armor to 335; making it an 18% difference*. Amarr are supposed to be buffer tank gods anyway. The idea of more armor HP for Amarr Assault is a little scary...it can get close to/break 1000 now cant it? Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 627	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:56:00 - [99] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Gallente should trump all other race's innate repair rates by a wide margin. No. Not a wide margin. If this is the case, the base Armor of the Amarr suits should trump the Gallente by a wide margin. Or the base speed of the Minmatar should trumt the others by a wide margin. It shouldn't be a wide margin. It should be marginally the best, just like the Minmatar speed, the Caldari Shield HP, or the Amarr Armor HP. Enough to insure that the suit will be the go to suit for that type of thing, no more. Totally agree. The Amarr make sizeable treadeoffs for a not exactly "wide margin" of extra buffer. Amarr armor HP does trump the Gallente armor HP by a noticeable amount. Look at the assault dropsuits. Amarr: 315, Gallente: 275. That is a 13% difference in the Amarr's favor. We could widen that more by increasing Amarr armor to 335; making it an 18% difference*. Amarr are supposed to be buffer tank gods anyway. 13% is not a wide margin. That's a pretty small margin. About -+ of a basic plate. That about the advantage the gallente assault should have over the Amarr assault. About -+ of a basic repairer. And really, the Amarr Assault doesn't need 20 more HP. It has plenty as it is. Swag-suit4lyfe!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3418	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:07:00 - [100] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Gallente should trump all other race's innate repair rates by a wide margin. No. Not a wide margin. If this is the case, the base Armor of the Amarr suits should trump the Gallente by a wide margin. Or the base speed of the Minmatar should trumt the others by a wide margin. It shouldn't be a wide margin. It should be marginally the best, just like the Minmatar speed, the Caldari Shield HP, or the Amarr Armor HP. Enough to insure that the suit will be the go to suit for that type of thing, no more. Totally agree. The Amarr make sizeable treadeoffs for a not exactly "wide margin" of extra buffer. Amarr armor HP does trump the Gallente armor HP by a noticeable amount. Look at the assault dropsuits. Amarr: 315, Gallente: 275. That is a 13% difference in the Amarr's favor. We could widen that more by increasing Amarr armor to 335; making it an 18% difference*. Amarr are supposed to be buffer tank gods anyway. 13% is not a wide margin. That's a pretty small margin. About -+ of a basic plate. That about the advantage the gallente assault should have over the Amarr assault. About -+ of a basic repairer. And really, the Amarr Assault doesn't need 20 more HP. It has plenty as it is. For those keeping score at home that would be a 1.75 HP/s rep rate advantage for the Gal Proposed values are 3.5 vs 1.5 Net Gal advantage = 2.0 Assault numbers used since those were the suits compared in the quoted discussion. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Vini Requiem Jade-Knight Couedic Lancer And Shields 1	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:09:00 - [101] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 It would be better to take the EVE criteria these changes Thereby Caldari> Minmatar> Amarr> Gallente Who this is good At the same should you add a penalty to armor repair :)
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 98	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:46:00 - [102] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Helping New players that don't understand that they need to rep Helping Shield tankers use their low slots for regulators instead of always allocating one to a reactive/rep for that minimum 1hp/s Helping versatility, ferroscale usually gets dumped for a reactive, kincats, etc. Having a mandatory slot requirement to be reps is not fun Thanks for going into more detail. 1. Can you explain how native repping conveys the need to fit a repper? A shield suit needs no repper and armor starter suits have them prefitted, right? If you're worrying about new players that select a shield-heavy race and never learn about reppers I'd guess the 'selected race <-> starter fit race' link should be broken up so everyone can see what a shield and armor based suit looks like. On the other hand, by the time a player moves on from his own race's suits he will probably have gotten a picture of the available modules in the game. 2. Personally, if I had innate reps I'd drop a regulator to fit more armor on my Caldari suits. Isn't that the logical thing to do? This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be provocative here. If the issue is that shield-heavy suits can't utilize a certain part of their tank in their second or third engagement we can maybe discuss shoveling some more suit-armor hp into suit-shields. 3. There is no mandatory slot requirement as far as I'm aware? My Caldari suits work with no reps? I know that running around with 50 armor hp missing is concerning, but by that time I'm on a 5 kill streak. Does anyone really complain about not being on full-hp anymore in their 3rd or n-th engagement? I don't think our main focus should be balancing suits for their ability to go on 10-kill streaks. I'm of this man's opinion on the matter. With that said, I would love to get innate armor repair for selfish reasons. My Reactive plates would become complex ferroscales. What if we only added the natural armor regen to Starter Fits ? Is that totally out of the question? What about the difference between basic frames and role frames? ie Medium Frame and Assault dropsuit ? I think there is an answer or some form of compromise hidden in the difference between the two.
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 56	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:51:00 - [103] - Quote So, I have been thinking. We want Gallente to be the kings of armor rep, and we want to avoid feeling like you have to have a repairer fitted in your low slot at all times. I think this current suggestion isn't going to change what people fit on their suits that much, and these new numbers don't exactly make the gallente the rep champions when they are 0.5 better than the minmatar. People also say that armor repairers are too good, and I basically agree... for proto only. Perhaps a rep rebalance is in order, and perhaps to make this a better system (math wise you are almost always better off having 1 complex rep over a regulator) we should nerf repairers overall, but give gallente suits higher native regen. For instance: Basic: 4hp/s (5 with max skills) Enhanced: 5hp/s (6.25 with max skills) Complex: 6HP/s (7.5 with max skills) This smooths out armor repairs as currently the proto is 3x more than the basic and gives so much HP that even if you have some rep built in, it is almost too good to not have one. This buffs the basic tier one so that it isn't obsoleted once you skill into repairers more, and the proto is toned down so it isn't so attractive a choice to make it perfect. If you then gives gallente suits a slightly higher base amount, than this will be significant enough to make a difference in rep times. Perhaps a value of 4 across all Gal suits (3 for scout), 2 for all min/amarr and1.5 for all Cal. The math works out to Gals having similar rep amounts with complex reps that they have now (1.125 better with 1 rep than now, and 0.5 less than they have now with 2 reps with max skils). It might encourage Gals to use reactive/ferroscale plates instead of heavy plates/ rep as they can get good regen totals out of a few reactive/ferroscale plates, but have more speed to close in and use close range weapons. These are just rough figures maybe commandos need more rep as that's the way they seem to be heading, and maybe basic tier cal heavies need more because they have no low slots. It won't fix everything, (Normal plates give WAY too much hp. Over twice that of shield extenders of the same tier. Perhaps a 65, 85, 105 would be better), but it should make things less extreme and give people who want high HP incentive to use logis/ carry nanohives, or choose gallente suits. It's also hopefully enough rep to make people consider using not using armor mods on their caldari suits. It also means that low level suits might be able to to better by using more HP to stand up max skill proto suits since using 1 of their few slots for repair is much more significant. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3272	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:54:00 - [104] - Quote TO be fair, all but 4 suits (Minmatar Commando, Gallente Commando, Assault, & Logi) have less natural armor reps than a MLT/STD Rep at level 5 (~3.1 HP/s). So basically everyone else is getting a free MLT/STD rep or less. I think the numbers overall are pretty reasonable. Also a fan of MINA's CalScout suggestion of moving it from 0.5 to 0.75. CalScouts have the lowest armor in the game (tied with Minmatar) at 70HP....3 minutes to regen that is a little silly, the 0.75 brings it in just under 2 minutes while still remaining very low regen overall. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Killer's Coys Prima Gallicus 127	Posted - 2014.10.22 19:17:00 - [105] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Haerr wrote: Hey Rattati! Can we have a spreadsheet with: Race Suit Armor at max skills Innate Repair Rate Time from 0 Armor to Max ? I think this could highlight an issue with the very low repair numbers on Caldari Sentinel Here you go https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13j77OkeazhiHNcg7C9GShM3eu0GjsfIJyGm51svxbX0/edit?usp=sharing Hum I think Caldari Assault has more amor HP Because with skills it's 194HP And previously it was without skills : 120 and with skills : 150 I think without skills it's 155 With : 194 Logibro, you're my boy
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3273	Posted - 2014.10.22 19:24:00 - [106] - Quote Yeahhh..... fat fingered it, punched in 115 instead of 155. Good catch, thanks! Sheet updated, added repper values for reference Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 796	Posted - 2014.10.22 19:59:00 - [107] - Quote After letting this sink in for a while I think I can support this change. The core mechanical issue this resolves is that shield naturally repair but armor doesn't. That's good. That's important in the long run. We buy that at the price of buffing armor without adjusting shields at the same time. That'll have to be rectified at a later stage then.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3850	Posted - 2014.10.22 20:07:00 - [108] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: After letting this sink in for a while I think I can support this change. The core mechanical issue this resolves is that shield naturally repair but armor doesn't. That's good. That's important in the long run. We buy that at the price of buffing armor without adjusting shields at the same time. That'll have to be rectified at a later stage then. It's not very notable of a buff for armor tankers. It's just a little thing that rounds out the regen. However for shield tanks it's a game-changer. it's going to have more effect on cal/min survivability than Gal/AM because the latter two have deeper HP pools than this buff can make a meaningful dent in. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3274	Posted - 2014.10.22 20:19:00 - [109] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: After letting this sink in for a while I think I can support this change. The core mechanical issue this resolves is that shield naturally repair but armor doesn't. That's good. That's important in the long run. We buy that at the price of buffing armor without adjusting shields at the same time. That'll have to be rectified at a later stage then. It's not very notable of a buff for armor tankers. It's just a little thing that rounds out the regen. However for shield tanks it's a game-changer. it's going to have more effect on cal/min survivability than Gal/AM because the latter two have deeper HP pools than this buff can make a meaningful dent in. That's mostly what I'm taking away from it. This is a straight up buff (and a needed one) to shield tanking. Armor users get a slightly increase as well which is nice, but the primary function of this change will be to help shield tankers out. I've wanted something like this for a long time, good to finally see the idea being considered. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 103	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:04:00 - [110] - Quote As a caldari dropsuit user im all for native rep, frees up my low slots for regulators Assault-1/2/3 STD ADV PROTO-armour hp/Sec Commando-2/3/4 Sentinel-2/3/4 Scout-1/2/3 Logi 1/23 The heavys having less low slots and more hp getting a slightly better rep, the scout having such low base hp can live off a little the mediums have the lows to boost their armour rep if they really need to. It may be low stats for some but the caldari should have the lowest base , but in some fits you can forgo an armour rep module and try more imaginative fits My bit on caldari native rep CEO-Kirjuun Heiian-Caldari Faction Warfare Corp Join our public chat channel. Kirjuun Heiian

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 605	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:39:00 - [111] - Quote Here's the biggest reason why we shouldn't do this: it makes absolutely no sense in terms of the already established design in dust and eve online. Shields have native regen. Not armor. You change this and shields go from low HP with free passive regen to simply low HP, and regen that can be interrupted vs high HP armor with free constant armor reps. When you look at it like that, armor tanking is the more attractive choice.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1432	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:43:00 - [112] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Here's the biggest reason why we shouldn't do this: it makes absolutely no sense in terms of the already established design in dust and eve online. Shields have native regen. Not armor. You change this and shields go from low HP with free passive regen to simply low HP, and regen that can be interrupted vs high HP armor with free constant armor reps. When you look at it like that, armor tanking is the more attractive choice. So how about we remove shield recharge from any suit with an armor repairer fit to it, or lacking a shield recharger /factious Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3275	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:55:00 - [113] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Here's the biggest reason why we shouldn't do this: it makes absolutely no sense in terms of the already established design in dust and eve online. Shields have native regen. Not armor. You change this and shields go from low HP with free passive regen to simply low HP, and regen that can be interrupted vs high HP armor with free constant armor reps. When you look at it like that, armor tanking is the more attractive choice. I would agree with you if it were possible to properly pure tank in Dust, but you can't. Shields come back much more quickly in Dust than they do in EVE, so an armor tank can still expect his shields to provide a reliable buffer much of the time. It isn't like EVE where it's going to take 5-10 minutes for your shields to come back 100% after depletion. This means that an armor tanker will continually use both his shields and armor as a primary means of defense, even if the slots favor the armor more. Conversely, shield tankers are expected to rely entirely on their shields, despite armor tanks enjoying an extremely high shield recharge rate, despite the fact that they're armor tanks? All suits in varying degrees will hybrid tank and make use of both shields and armor in the long run, and as such with the way the game is set up, it makes sense that all suits have some limited form of self armor reps. Now if you advocated for dropping shield regen on armor tanks to like 5HP/s, then you might have an argument. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13745	Posted - 2014.10.22 22:02:00 - [114] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Here's the biggest reason why we shouldn't do this: it makes absolutely no sense in terms of the already established design in dust and eve online. Shields have native regen. Not armor. You change this and shields go from low HP with free passive regen to simply low HP, and regen that can be interrupted vs high HP armor with free constant armor reps. When you look at it like that, armor tanking is the more attractive choice. I would agree with you if it were possible to properly pure tank in Dust, but you can't. Shields come back much more quickly in Dust than they do in EVE, so an armor tank can still expect his shields to provide a reliable buffer much of the time. It isn't like EVE where it's going to take 5-10 minutes for your shields to come back 100% after depletion. This means that an armor tanker will continually use both his shields and armor as a primary means of defense, even if the slots favor the armor more. Conversely, shield tankers are expected to rely entirely on their shields, despite armor tanks enjoying an extremely high shield recharge rate, despite the fact that they're armor tanks? All suits in varying degrees will hybrid tank and make use of both shields and armor in the long run, and as such with the way the game is set up, it makes sense that all suits have some limited form of self armor reps. Now if you advocated for dropping shield regen on armor tanks to like 5HP/s, then you might have an argument. That's primarily because the recharging of Shield and Armour is the wrong way around. Shields Constantly regenerate at a slow pace. (But can pulse when actively Recharged) Armour Pulse's up intermittently (as a general rule of thumb) Why is it not possible to extend armour suit shield recharge times as well as reduce per pulse values? "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3276	Posted - 2014.10.22 22:04:00 - [115] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Why is it not possible to extend armour suit shield recharge times as well as reduce per pulse values? Forgive me if I'm misreading, but are you essentially saying to reduce recharge rate of shields on armor suits? Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13746	Posted - 2014.10.22 22:13:00 - [116] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: True Adamance wrote: Why is it not possible to extend armour suit shield recharge times as well as reduce per pulse values? Forgive me if I'm misreading, but are you essentially saying to reduce recharge rate of shields on armor suits? Fundamentally I guess. I'd prefer to feel more reliant on my armour as my primary HP buffer than the shield. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3276	Posted - 2014.10.22 22:19:00 - [117] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: True Adamance wrote: Why is it not possible to extend armour suit shield recharge times as well as reduce per pulse values? Forgive me if I'm misreading, but are you essentially saying to reduce recharge rate of shields on armor suits? Fundamentally I guess. I'd prefer to feel more reliant on my armour as my primary HP buffer than the shield. I suppose in a pure tanking situation, a shield tanker has no armor reps fitted and thus essentially he will never get his armor back if he loses most of it (unless acted upon by an outside force). If we lower armor suit shield regen, it would essentially mean that once an armor suit loses its shields, it will likely never get all of it back before they are killed due to extremely long recharge times. I could see that as an acceptable method as well, though I am concerned that the above mentioned 'Pure Tanking' method may cause more balancing issues than it's worth. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2257	Posted - 2014.10.22 22:21:00 - [118] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I guess my view of roles would be that Heavies had more innate shields/armor, to withstand some damage, but that they should have LESS regen than an Assault, who would be more cover based. What is the rationale for giving sentinals more regen than Assaults while at the same time giving them higher HP? Something I thought of as I pasted this, Assault should be over Sents, for fast recovery. I must respectfully disagree... Just kidding. This statement IMHO is spot on. Agree also. In general, the proposal looks good - should increase fitting diversity, should make the game a bit easier on the new players and should add a little bit more identity to the role/races. PSN: RationalSpark
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1982	Posted - 2014.10.22 22:26:00 - [119] - Quote I will gladly drop the reactive on my Caldari suits for another regulator or a kincat. My Calmanndo willsing your praises if this is implemented posthaste. Mercs whine about the rail rifle but refuse to shield tank to counter it. But that's none of my business.
XxVEXESxX 33	Posted - 2014.10.23 00:13:00 - [120] - Quote With the buff to reps and rep plates this has been long needed. I already have new fits ready when this drops. +1 PSN: XxVEXESxX Minmatar loyalist Dropsuit Upgrades level 5

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 605	Posted - 2014.10.23 00:37:00 - [121] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: True Adamance wrote: Why is it not possible to extend armour suit shield recharge times as well as reduce per pulse values? Forgive me if I'm misreading, but are you essentially saying to reduce recharge rate of shields on armor suits? Fundamentally I guess. I'd prefer to feel more reliant on my armour as my primary HP buffer than the shield. I suppose in a pure tanking situation, a shield tanker has no armor reps fitted and thus essentially he will never get his armor back if he loses most of it (unless acted upon by an outside force). If we lower armor suit shield regen, it would essentially mean that once an armor suit loses its shields, it will likely never get all of it back before they are killed due to extremely long recharge times. I could see that as an acceptable method as well, though I am concerned that the above mentioned 'Pure Tanking' method may cause more balancing issues than it's worth. thats kind of my issue here is that armor tankers benefit from both their shield hp buffers as well as their primary armor buffer. i purely shield tank. i dont get my armor back when i lose unless i can find a logi or rep hive. we should reduce shield recharge on armor suits so that they cannot always rely on their shield buffers. it should be the same as with shield tankers, the initial shield buffer is for "first encounters" and at no time after should it be fully recharged before the next encounter unless they remove themselves from battle for extended periods of time (5hp/s sounds good to me for armor tankers)
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8079	Posted - 2014.10.23 01:25:00 - [122] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: True Adamance wrote: Why is it not possible to extend armour suit shield recharge times as well as reduce per pulse values? Forgive me if I'm misreading, but are you essentially saying to reduce recharge rate of shields on armor suits? Fundamentally I guess. I'd prefer to feel more reliant on my armour as my primary HP buffer than the shield. I suppose in a pure tanking situation, a shield tanker has no armor reps fitted and thus essentially he will never get his armor back if he loses most of it (unless acted upon by an outside force). If we lower armor suit shield regen, it would essentially mean that once an armor suit loses its shields, it will likely never get all of it back before they are killed due to extremely long recharge times. I could see that as an acceptable method as well, though I am concerned that the above mentioned 'Pure Tanking' method may cause more balancing issues than it's worth. thats kind of my issue here is that armor tankers benefit from both their shield hp buffers as well as their primary armor buffer. i purely shield tank. i dont get my armor back when i lose unless i can find a logi or rep hive. we should reduce shield recharge on armor suits so that they cannot always rely on their shield buffers. it should be the same as with shield tankers, the initial shield buffer is for "first encounters" and at no time after should it be fully recharged before the next encounter unless they remove themselves from battle for extended periods of time (5hp/s sounds good to me for armor tankers) Gallente Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Amarr Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Caldari Assault Shield Stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 30 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 5 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 6 seconds CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13757	Posted - 2014.10.23 01:27:00 - [123] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Gallente Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Amarr Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Caldari Assault Shield Stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 30 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 5 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 6 seconds Rather than needing passive armour reps we should be looking at reducing the shield rep efficiency of our suits. I'm all for the Gallente to be top tier rep brawlers but just handing you passive reps equivalent to one extra advanced or prototype module is not the way to do it. If the assault needs a bonus you are starting at the answer. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8079	Posted - 2014.10.23 02:01:00 - [124] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Gallente Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Amarr Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Caldari Assault Shield Stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 30 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 5 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 6 seconds Rather than needing passive armour reps we should be looking at reducing the shield rep efficiency of our suits. I'm all for the Gallente to be top tier rep brawlers but just handing you passive reps equivalent to one extra advanced or prototype module is not the way to do it. If the assault needs a bonus you are starting at the answer. I'd like it if the suits had an armor repair modifier rate. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13759	Posted - 2014.10.23 02:08:00 - [125] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: True Adamance wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Gallente Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Amarr Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Caldari Assault Shield Stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 30 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 5 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 6 seconds Rather than needing passive armour reps we should be looking at reducing the shield rep efficiency of our suits. I'm all for the Gallente to be top tier rep brawlers but just handing you passive reps equivalent to one extra advanced or prototype module is not the way to do it. If the assault needs a bonus you are starting at the answer. I'd like it if the suits had an armor repair modifier rate. Yeah that's a cool idea, a statistic that modifies the values of each repper stacked on the suit. E.G- Amarr = 1.0 Gallente = 1.15 So if a Complex Armour repair units repaired 10 Armour per second. Amarr recieved their standard values, while Gallente rep at 11.5 per repair unit they have stacked. Amarr 2x Complex Repair Units = 210 reps per second - stacking penalties Gallente 2xComplex Repair Units = 2 11.5 reps per second - stacking penalties. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9042	Posted - 2014.10.23 03:21:00 - [126] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: True Adamance wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Gallente Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Amarr Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Caldari Assault Shield Stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 30 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 5 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 6 seconds Rather than needing passive armour reps we should be looking at reducing the shield rep efficiency of our suits. I'm all for the Gallente to be top tier rep brawlers but just handing you passive reps equivalent to one extra advanced or prototype module is not the way to do it. If the assault needs a bonus you are starting at the answer. I'd like it if the suits had an armor repair modifier rate. Yeah that's a cool idea, a statistic that modifies the values of each repper stacked on the suit. E.G- Amarr = 1.0 Gallente = 1.15 So if a Complex Armour repair units repaired 10 Armour per second. Amarr recieved their standard values, while Gallente rep at 11.5 per repair unit they have stacked. Amarr 2x Complex Repair Units = 210 reps per second - stacking penalties Gallente 2xComplex Repair Units = 2 11.5 reps per second - stacking penalties. That's just module efficacy, and I am very interested in pursuing that, but right now, focused on smaller changes. Switching to efficacy is a widespread and fine-detail change. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13768	Posted - 2014.10.23 03:45:00 - [127] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: True Adamance wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: True Adamance wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Gallente Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Amarr Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Caldari Assault Shield Stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 30 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 5 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 6 seconds Rather than needing passive armour reps we should be looking at reducing the shield rep efficiency of our suits. I'm all for the Gallente to be top tier rep brawlers but just handing you passive reps equivalent to one extra advanced or prototype module is not the way to do it. If the assault needs a bonus you are starting at the answer. I'd like it if the suits had an armor repair modifier rate. Yeah that's a cool idea, a statistic that modifies the values of each repper stacked on the suit. E.G- Amarr = 1.0 Gallente = 1.15 So if a Complex Armour repair units repaired 10 Armour per second. Amarr recieved their standard values, while Gallente rep at 11.5 per repair unit they have stacked. Amarr 2x Complex Repair Units = 210 reps per second - stacking penalties Gallente 2xComplex Repair Units = 2 11.5 reps per second - stacking penalties. That's just module efficacy, and I am very interested in pursuing that, but right now, focused on smaller changes. Switching to efficacy is a widespread and fine-detail change. Fair enough. But I do not understand how it is justified to improve armour tanking significantly by giving us a natural regenerative property, and more over buff a both races of armour tankers by essentially giving a number of their dropsuits the equivalent of an additional module. I personally however am simply against passive repairs of any kind for any race, especially the Amarr (and by extension the Gallente) since it is just a pure buff to my armour reps. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 605	Posted - 2014.10.23 03:52:00 - [128] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: True Adamance wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: True Adamance wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Gallente Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Amarr Assault Shield stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds Caldari Assault Shield Stats: Shield Recharge Rate: 30 hp/s Shield Recharge Delay: 5 seconds Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 6 seconds Rather than needing passive armour reps we should be looking at reducing the shield rep efficiency of our suits. I'm all for the Gallente to be top tier rep brawlers but just handing you passive reps equivalent to one extra advanced or prototype module is not the way to do it. If the assault needs a bonus you are starting at the answer. I'd like it if the suits had an armor repair modifier rate. Yeah that's a cool idea, a statistic that modifies the values of each repper stacked on the suit. E.G- Amarr = 1.0 Gallente = 1.15 So if a Complex Armour repair units repaired 10 Armour per second. Amarr recieved their standard values, while Gallente rep at 11.5 per repair unit they have stacked. Amarr 2x Complex Repair Units = 210 reps per second - stacking penalties Gallente 2xComplex Repair Units = 2 11.5 reps per second - stacking penalties. That's just module efficacy, and I am very interested in pursuing that, but right now, focused on smaller changes. Switching to efficacy is a widespread and fine-detail change. its also completely necessary. it must be done at some point, though we can continue procrastinating. the suit bonuses also need to be moved to the actual individual suits, so we can free up the actual skills to give unique bonuses without the need to to create additional skills. so that we can have suit variants using the same skills but with different bonuses. it would create more varied fits and provide a variety of options. it wouldve been easier if this had been done from the beginning
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3852	Posted - 2014.10.23 04:14:00 - [129] - Quote Hey adamance. This buff to armor is not significant. It significantly helps suits with lor armor HP but is more cosmetic band-aid for gallente and amarr. The minmatar and caldari suits will gain more benefit from the lower regen than gallente will gain from higher And to the argument that in EVE there is no regen fro armor... this ain't EVE and your argument falls off when you consider EVE you gain significant regen on armor from using one fitting slot. In DUST armor regen needs three to be enough to heal you at a decent clip. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 605	Posted - 2014.10.23 04:34:00 - [130] - Quote if this is about the NPE and giving new players more survivability, then buff those useless basic suits. givie them the native armor reps and leave the other alone

Indy Strizer Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 158	Posted - 2014.10.23 04:48:00 - [131] - Quote Definitely looks good... The concept or premise anyways... Not going to bother number crunching though. It's nice to know that I'm not going to have to deal with looking for armor reps with indefinitely damaged armor after 1/4th of my encounters until I die... or until I run to a supply depot and change my suit out. I'm loving how the scout regen is below the assaults. Not sure if it's been that way for a while or if it's an upcoming change, but I always felt that since scout was a more stealthy playstyle, scouts should be penalized when they're caught- with slower regen and low HP that is, they should be relying on flanking and ambushing and such... It seems to be the convention for stealthy playstyles in other games so I never got why it wasn't here for the longest time. Anyways,, I personally fit shield regulators and use compact nanohives as personal armor rep kits. So it doesn't actually free up a low slot for me, It frees up an equipment slot for me. So I'll still be using nothing but shield regulators on my caldari suits for the most part. It'll be nice to not have to carry those on me so much.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1033	Posted - 2014.10.23 04:49:00 - [132] - Quote This is needed for sure. I would propose that passive reps should only return the suit to the suits base HP (including skills) and NOT repair any plates that have been stacked. This would be far more balanced than just applying a base set of reps and allowing people to tank one more plate. Example: ADV Amarr scout 170 HP + 405 from 3 complex plates Passive reps would only apply to the first 170 HP This would keep reactive plates popular as well as limit brick tanking ability that would be buffed through a passive rep addition.
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 4199	Posted - 2014.10.23 05:44:00 - [133] - Quote No, your taking away a racial attribute that makes the gallente different from the Amarr just like yall butchered the Amarrs special trait and just gave it to the minmatar who have inherently better hacking and melee for their scouts. Need I remind you of when the Amarr scout was being released as the biotic scout and we told you it was ass backwards? (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 4199	Posted - 2014.10.23 05:58:00 - [134] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: True Adamance wrote: I'm confused as to why armour suits need this at all. There is no reason to have natural passive armour reps as well. ITT True whines some more about how Dust is not an exact copy of EVE. Seriously dude. Stop. The future equivalent of naval warfare isn't going to be like the future equivalent of infantry combat. Besides that, they are completely different genres. It seems like you only show up on the forums nowadays to whine about how Amarr don't have an HAV yet, and point out when something isn't just like EVE. Then why is the game called Eve:Dust514? Instead of avoiding the solution how about CCP make the correct changes to shield tanking module efficiency and base stats on all suits to correctly tie in with the Eve universe. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
doc lowroar THE 300 SPARTANS 14	Posted - 2014.10.23 06:31:00 - [135] - Quote I run minmitar , reps yes please. It would be helpful for trying to run a regulater shield build at lower levels besides proto , due to lack of slots. With that said just give us all more slots it would make for more dynamic builds. Lol oh the op chaos , do just do it. Lol "Wherever you go, there you are" -BB

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9056	Posted - 2014.10.23 06:53:00 - [136] - Quote Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Amarr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Kaughst Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 752	Posted - 2014.10.23 07:25:00 - [137] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Amarr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 grr...what is the point of playing Gal assault when amarr Ass. is only .5 away in rep. I do not understand the benefit of using the Gal assault anymore. "Why do we fight?" "To win the war." "Meh... Works for me."
Firbolg Barun Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 53	Posted - 2014.10.23 07:32:00 - [138] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s ... Just out of curiosity: Which parameters do you balance the armor reps around? In the long term, I think it could be good to actually balance the REP so that all suits rep to max in similar amount of time, and make armor repair mods percentage based off your base recharge. This is of course a rough idea. Could be hard to balance. Could also force light suits to choose armor plates instead of armor reps.
Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 767	Posted - 2014.10.23 08:26:00 - [139] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s (Brackets are old proposed stats) Gallente Commando[4] 3 - Lowered Logi[3.5] 3 - Lowered Assault[3.5] 2.5 - Lowered Sentinel[3] 2 - Lowered Scout[2] 1.5 - Lowered Minmatar Commando[3.5] 2.5 - Lowered Logi[3] 2.5 - Lowered Assault[2] 2 - Same Sentinel[2.5] 1.5 - Lowered Scout[1.5] 1 - Lowered Amarr Commando[3] 2.5 - Lowered Logi[2.5] 2.5 - Same Assault[1.5] 2 - Raised Sentinel[2] 1.5 - Lowered Scout[1] 1 - Same Caldari Commando[2.5] 2 - Lowered Logi[2] 2 - Same Assault[1] 1.5 - Raised Sentinel[1.5] 1 - Lowered Scout[0.5] 0.5 - Same Edits to show at a glance the old proposed and new proposed. My Feedback: Ack! What happened to the stats from your first post? Those looked fine to me, didn't give any overtly dramatic armor repair while at the same time distinguishing the different races. Now the Minmatar and Amarr look like the same race. A "hybrid regen"? An armor repair race? Both sharing the same stats across the board? Not to mention the Gallente seems to only be a very slight margin better than Amarr. To be honest they looked better on the first page (brackets in quote above). I will say that innate armor reps are extremely welcome in my book. I'll tinker around with my fit and I might keep my armor repair for added regen, but if this goes through, it will be nice to know my Logistics suit has SOME regen capabilities. Closed Beta Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou
Horizon Limit Nexus Balusa Horizon 88	Posted - 2014.10.23 08:27:00 - [140] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s First try was better. Cal scout vs Cal scout

Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 722	Posted - 2014.10.23 08:43:00 - [141] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 The main problem here, is you define Galente as "Armor rep kings" But actually they're also the "high ehp unit". Amarr base ehp is actually useless since once fitted, Gallente have same armor than amarr, with better hp regen. Amarr should get a little more base ehp (10/20 ehp more) or getting some speed. (Since Minmatarr got more ehp why Amarr should stay with their native slower speed ?)
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3223	Posted - 2014.10.23 10:12:00 - [142] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Amarr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 Facepalm, the majority agreed that gal bonus should of been higher and then you lower it. Again, the gal suits rely on repairs and on board passive repairs to make up the difference in the other bonuses other classes excel (amarr armor, cal shield rep, etc) but due to the nature of how repaired are stacked the more you stack them the more negligible the bonus becomes. As a gal, your main goal is to balance rep with hp, and mitigating speed. But with these numbers this doesn't matter since an anarr suit Will get more rep, more hp regardless of speed. The gal bonus should be high enough to make it stand out amongst all the other suits, because if it doesn't it's going to suck. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Klubba Dkc2 Atmospheric Pollution 32	Posted - 2014.10.23 10:20:00 - [143] - Quote To buff all Gallente get f*****? At least give a decent buff, current number are way to low. Klubba pay Toll
Edgar Reinhart Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 12	Posted - 2014.10.23 10:37:00 - [144] - Quote Any thoughts where the basic suits, medium, light, heavy fit in to this? Or are we basically saying that these are on the way out as all discussion about balance, roles, uses etc completely ignores them?
X7 lion Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 376	Posted - 2014.10.23 10:48:00 - [145] - Quote as a gal scout i can tell you having native reps are useful but not op. i want other suits to have it to what ever variying extents, but if you take my armour rep down any meh nova knives shall find you ;) Do not contribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance. being contradictory is not the same as being offensive.
Broonfondle Majikthies Dogs of War Gaming 1334	Posted - 2014.10.23 11:46:00 - [146] - Quote I like the principle of this. Always thought it odd that the best hit and run suits were the Cals since they regen a larger portion of their health faster than a Min. My personal suggestion was to make a difference between faster recharge and shorter depleted delay. Your suggestion does open some very interesting avenues for the Min suits, which I've always felt had to sacrifice module space to even function as intended and therefore inherently suffer. My lows are often sacrificed to make the shields regen quicker and my armour repair. The net result being that my preferred Proto fit felt more like an Adv. Then when compensating the other way denied the hit and run role which it is intended for since the suit took too long to be combat viable again. Really interested in seeing these changes. "The air smells damp and oppressive, like a wet nun" "Why am I talking to a lightbulb? Illuminate me"
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4247	Posted - 2014.10.23 11:48:00 - [147] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Amarr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 I like the new concept but don't know that you really needed to drop the absolute values as well. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3858	Posted - 2014.10.23 12:44:00 - [148] - Quote First proposal was superior. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2258	Posted - 2014.10.23 12:45:00 - [149] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Hey adamance. This buff to armor is not significant. It significantly helps suits with lor armor HP but is more cosmetic band-aid for gallente and amarr. The minmatar and caldari suits will gain more benefit from the lower regen than gallente will gain from higher And to the argument that in EVE there is no regen fro armor... this ain't EVE and your argument falls off when you consider EVE you gain significant regen on armor from using one fitting slot. In DUST armor regen needs three to be enough to heal you at a decent clip. Agreed. Native regen will make no difference in an engagement, other that what non armor-tanking suits choose to do with the extra slot. Some will use it to support their shield tank, fewer may use it for a larger armor buffer. Fitting mods will increase fitting diversity/tier, ewar should be popular and codebreakers will get some uptake. That extra lowslot might be a nice place to put the 'Boundless Industries Native Ammo Regen' module PSN: RationalSpark
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1436	Posted - 2014.10.23 13:24:00 - [150] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Amarr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 The numbers weren't that bad in the first place, just a few things needed to be adjusted to be slightly higher from the original proposal: cal sent, scout and assault were the only ones I had any real issue with. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 105	Posted - 2014.10.23 13:38:00 - [151] - Quote Ya. 5 on my scout and 1 on my sent....u didnt really give me much 30/60 armour a min If a game lasts 10 min I may fully rep my sent with a plate, scout would take about 3 mins to rep fully However those are extreme examples And Caldari Logistics running high meta hives form an integral role in caldari squads, scouts running dampner and range, sentinel running an armour plate or kin cat, if their armour drops low, use buffed cal logi hives to rep your armour, while you quickly regen your shields. If you do go down, high level needles negate the need to rep temporarily. All considered, I probably will run less repair modules on my caldari fittings But I do foresee that overall, these native rep values will feel too insignificant for some and will probably get a further tweak CEO-Kirjuun Heiian-Caldari Faction Warfare Corp Join our public chat channel. Kirjuun Heiian
Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 105	Posted - 2014.10.23 13:42:00 - [152] - Quote Could it be as simple as increasing everyone on the whole list by 1/sec CEO-Kirjuun Heiian-Caldari Faction Warfare Corp Join our public chat channel. Kirjuun Heiian
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18374	Posted - 2014.10.23 13:52:00 - [153] - Quote Innate reps will never be as effective as modular reps and they never should be. I see no problem with having the least armour oriented race not having much regen. Not even the Gallente have noticeable innate rep rates. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1436	Posted - 2014.10.23 14:01:00 - [154] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Innate reps will never be as effective as modular reps and they never should be. I see no problem with having the least armour oriented race not having much regen. Not even the Gallente have noticeable innate rep rates. The intention was apparently to give shield oriented suits the use of all their low slots without having to slap reactive plates or armor reppers to them. The first proposal had some issues and the second proposal is arguably worse. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6773	Posted - 2014.10.23 15:35:00 - [155] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Innate reps will never be as effective as modular reps and they never should be. I see no problem with having the least armour oriented race not having much regen. Not even the Gallente have noticeable innate rep rates. The intention was apparently to give shield oriented suits the use of all their low slots without having to slap reactive plates or armor reppers to them. The first proposal had some issues and the second proposal is arguably worse. IMO, that -should- be one of the downfalls of shield tanking is that you have to fit a module to get any types of reps on Armor... For the longest time my Gallente Assault had a bonus to shield recharge with only 150 shields, it never persuaded me to fit shield rechargers whenever I lost that bonus. Although I severely doubt my opinion of "Deal with it or change to armor tanking" will sway people.... Anyway, going with this current setup, my personal opinion would be that the Gallente should have higher reps but I am significantly worried about innate Logi reps as we've gone down that road previously and we had nothing but combat Logi's running around. Personally, I'd rather see the Logi's somewhere toward the bottom as far as reps if only to prevent that mentality. They have much better fitting (slots and CPU/PG) than Assaults anyway so it's not exactly asking much. { \| bittervetmode = 0 I } == Description == This player has recovered morale [[Category: Hopeful]]
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 57	Posted - 2014.10.23 16:01:00 - [156] - Quote With the new rep amounts, Gallente suits seems kinda worthless. I get to rep 30HP/minute more than an amarr, and that's functionally insignificant. Also, I don't think I can use reactive plates on my Gal scouts anymore with these numbers. Havin 9 rep with 2 reactive plates let me put 4 ewaar mods on and still have decent turn around. 7.5 rep is just nowhere near as good as 10.875 rep. It's just better to stack plates and a rep at this point, but I'll have to downgrade my cloak field/nanite injector to fit a plate and a rep. And my commandos have more rep... but not even significantly more more than the nearest competator. You puts at least one repairer on a commando anyway, so as you put them on, that 0.5/sec supremacy is functionally insignificant. Honestly I picked the gallente commando for the PLC, but proto caldari commandos hit harder with plasma weapons and have the same total HP regen. I kinda don't see a point now. As someone who uses Gal suits, I liked my regen/ Now, I don't see a point to picking one, and definately wouldn't recommend it to someone new. Perhaps if we had 1.5 reps more than the competition, it'd be nice, but now the amarr have more HP and stamina, caldari have WAY better shield recharge/delay numbers for the same base HP, and the min have speed, insane stamina regen, better hack speed. I get 15hp every 30 seconds better rep. This MIGHT shave me as much as 2 seconds on repair times over an amarr with identical slot layout... partly because he has more HP than me. Sorry to sounds whiney, but I feel that I don't actually get much benefit with gallente suits, and since this change effects my scout fittings so much, I might not use them anymore. Not worth it. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 101	Posted - 2014.10.23 16:17:00 - [157] - Quote This is not supposed to be any sort of significant regen guys, don't complain that it's too low. Stay on target, this is just to provide a means for new players to get their 80 points in armor back somehow before they figure out how the game works.
Banjo Robertson Evzones Public.Disorder. 285	Posted - 2014.10.23 16:23:00 - [158] - Quote Allow me to suggest some numbers that I find to be more appealing to both my senses, and sensibilities, and yeah, repair on scouts isnt why they are broken. CCP Rattati wrote: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Galmando 4.5 Galgistic 4.0 Gassault 4.0 Gentinel 3.0 Gout 3.0 CCP Rattati wrote: Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Minmando 3.0 Mingistic 2.5 Massault 2.5 Mentinel 2.0 Mout 2.0 CCP Rattati wrote: Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Armando 2.5 Argistic 2.0 Arssault 2.0 Artinel 1.5 Art 1.5 CCP Rattati wrote: Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 Calmando 2.0 Calgistic 1.5 Cassault 1.5 Cantinel 1.0 Cout 1.0
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1438	Posted - 2014.10.23 16:24:00 - [159] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Innate reps will never be as effective as modular reps and they never should be. I see no problem with having the least armour oriented race not having much regen. Not even the Gallente have noticeable innate rep rates. The intention was apparently to give shield oriented suits the use of all their low slots without having to slap reactive plates or armor reppers to them. The first proposal had some issues and the second proposal is arguably worse. IMO, that -should- be one of the downfalls of shield tanking is that you have to fit a module to get any types of reps on Armor... For the longest time my Gallente Assault had a bonus to shield recharge with only 150 shields, it never persuaded me to fit shield rechargers whenever I lost that bonus. Although I severely doubt my opinion of "Deal with it or change to armor tanking" will sway people.... Anyway, going with this current setup, my personal opinion would be that the Gallente should have higher reps but I am significantly worried about innate Logi reps as we've gone down that road previously and we had nothing but combat Logi's running around. Personally, I'd rather see the Logi's somewhere toward the bottom as far as reps if only to prevent that mentality. They have much better fitting (slots and CPU/PG) than Assaults anyway so it's not exactly asking much. So should one of the downfalls of armor tanking be that you need to fit a shield recharger or a regulator? or that you simply don't get any shield rep if you have a repairer fit? You can't have it both ways. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8085	Posted - 2014.10.23 17:45:00 - [160] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Amarr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 This one is painful to look at, what's the point in even being Gallente when your reps dont stand apart from the rest when it comes to repair rate. Previous proposed numbers were in general better. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.

Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 102	Posted - 2014.10.23 18:32:00 - [161] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 I've thought this would be a great thing for any suit with very few low slots for a long time, make it happen
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6774	Posted - 2014.10.23 18:32:00 - [162] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Innate reps will never be as effective as modular reps and they never should be. I see no problem with having the least armour oriented race not having much regen. Not even the Gallente have noticeable innate rep rates. The intention was apparently to give shield oriented suits the use of all their low slots without having to slap reactive plates or armor reppers to them. The first proposal had some issues and the second proposal is arguably worse. IMO, that -should- be one of the downfalls of shield tanking is that you have to fit a module to get any types of reps on Armor... For the longest time my Gallente Assault had a bonus to shield recharge with only 150 shields, it never persuaded me to fit shield rechargers whenever I lost that bonus. Although I severely doubt my opinion of "Deal with it or change to armor tanking" will sway people.... Anyway, going with this current setup, my personal opinion would be that the Gallente should have higher reps but I am significantly worried about innate Logi reps as we've gone down that road previously and we had nothing but combat Logi's running around. Personally, I'd rather see the Logi's somewhere toward the bottom as far as reps if only to prevent that mentality. They have much better fitting (slots and CPU/PG) than Assaults anyway so it's not exactly asking much. So should one of the downfalls of armor tanking be that you need to fit a shield recharger or a regulator? or that you simply don't get any shield rep if you have an armor repairer fit? There is a slot tax on shield suits you must use at least one low for an armor rep module unless you want to succumb to attrition. The intent of this change is to remove the slot tax. Armor users don't suffer from this slot tax because they were going to fit an armor rep anyways. Imagine if you had a slot tax on shield repair where you had to fit a shield recharger in order to get any shield rep at all, you would be upset because you'd want to use that valuable slot for something else like a damage mod. We (shield users) want to use our valuable low slot for something else like a dampener or a cardiac regulator, or a SHIELD REGULATOR. We are taxed, you are not, this is unhealthy and you cannot have it both ways. Sure, I'd be down for it. I really don't think it's that big of a deal, honestly. I think people forget that Shields in and of themselves innately have faster regeneration and this is especially true -on- suits intended for shield tanking. You have to realize that shield tanking suits have their ups where they have their downs; sure, they don't have any base armor repair but in the same sense that the Gallente have at least some minor armor repair built in the Caldari have substantially higher shield regeneration capabilities by comparison. Further more, while Armor Users don't suffer from this - how'd you put it - 'slot tax', we also have barely anything at all we can even put in our high slots to begin with that contribute to our fighting style. Damage mods, sure, but if you take those out of the mix (as they are extraordinarily high in fitting costs) we're left with... What do you know, shield modules and precision enhancers. It ain't as one sided as you seem to put on. { \| bittervetmode = 0 I } == Description == This player has recovered morale [[Category: Hopeful]]
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1441	Posted - 2014.10.23 19:08:00 - [163] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Sure, I'd be down for it. I really don't think it's that big of a deal, honestly. I think people forget that Shields in and of themselves innately have faster regeneration and this is especially true -on- suits intended for shield tanking. You have to realize that shield tanking suits have their ups where they have their downs; sure, they don't have any base armor repair but in the same sense that the Gallente have at least some minor armor repair built in the Caldari have substantially higher shield regeneration capabilities by comparison. Further more, while Armor Users don't suffer from this - how'd you put it - 'slot tax', we also have barely anything at all we can even put in our high slots to begin with that contribute to our fighting style. Damage mods, sure, but if you take those out of the mix (as they are extraordinarily high in fitting costs) we're left with... What do you know, shield modules and precision enhancers. It ain't as one sided as you seem to put on. "if you take away the 'best' module it doesn't really mean anything!'. I'm sorry that high slots don't have a few more desireable modules and that ewar is fundamentally broken, if that wasn't the case you might see my point a bit easier. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3285	Posted - 2014.10.23 19:14:00 - [164] - Quote Updated Spreadsheet with Rattati Revision 1 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13j77OkeazhiHNcg7C9GShM3eu0GjsfIJyGm51svxbX0/edit?usp=sharing Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Toby Flenderson research lab 595	Posted - 2014.10.23 19:40:00 - [165] - Quote Forgive me if I am repeating an existing idea, but how about moving forward with some sort of native armor repair and then change armor repair modules to a percentage increase of repair rate that mimic the way shield extenders work? Obviously, I'm not suggesting that armor reps as fast as shields but by this respect the gallente could still maintain their role as the natural born reppers without giving them some ridiculously high native armor repair (say something between 5-10). I think this would solve the problem of the ammar suits being nearly equal to the gallente in terms of repping. I'd honestly prefer this to be the way all modules work, but in the specific case of armor reps, I think it would help the gallente excel where they were intended to.
Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 892	Posted - 2014.10.23 20:31:00 - [166] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: - Also a godsend to us poor benighted logis, it's very hard to stay alive without passive reps.(I'm also very surprised that nobody has come out with the derpslayerlogi argument. Refreshing) I think with every single suit able to slay better than a Logi these days, that argument has finally been retired? We can only hope. Passive reps will help a ton for the humble slayer servants. LOL at all the Gallente players wanting 5000 HP/s passive reps and no downside. Perhaps give them 15 - 20 HP/s passive reps, and take their shield recharge timer to 15 and 25 (depleted) seconds and amount repaired to 10 HP/s? Would that be a fair compromise armor rep kings? Day One Proto Minmatar Commando. A Mass Driver IS My Sidearm.
Red OfDust Generation Zero 46	Posted - 2014.10.23 21:13:00 - [167] - Quote I want the reason behind why the reduction of the gallente scout reps! Every other suit gets increased reps so why the gal scout is the only one being nerfed? Brick tanking for a scout is no more an option too, so dont see the reason fpr it
Yonkou Ifrit A.G.E.N.T.S. O.F. S.M.I.T.H. 198	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:13:00 - [168] - Quote The gallente scout nerf again the other scouts are competitive now i don't see why you want nerf again the gallente scout the reps is one of the seals of that suit. I'm a gallente suits user and almost always see how my suits are nerfed. ¿Quieres ser un A.G.E.N.T.?
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6780	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:37:00 - [169] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Sure, I'd be down for it. I really don't think it's that big of a deal, honestly. I think people forget that Shields in and of themselves innately have faster regeneration and this is especially true -on- suits intended for shield tanking. You have to realize that shield tanking suits have their ups where they have their downs; sure, they don't have any base armor repair but in the same sense that the Gallente have at least some minor armor repair built in the Caldari have substantially higher shield regeneration capabilities by comparison. Further more, while Armor Users don't suffer from this - how'd you put it - 'slot tax', we also have barely anything at all we can even put in our high slots to begin with that contribute to our fighting style. Damage mods, sure, but if you take those out of the mix (as they are extraordinarily high in fitting costs) we're left with... What do you know, shield modules and precision enhancers. It ain't as one sided as you seem to put on. "if you take away the 'best' module it doesn't really mean anything!'. I'm sorry that high slots don't have a few more desireable modules and that ewar is fundamentally broken, if that wasn't the case you might see my point a bit easier. Shield Regulators Ferroscale Plates Reactive Plates Cardiac Regulators Kinetic Catalyzers Myrofibral Stimulants Profile Dampeners Range Enhancers CPU Upgrades PG Upgrades There's a lot list of things you can put in the low-slots when you run Shield Tanking. Your argument is more for 'I want to use more of my utility slots for utility' than 'I want to stack nothing but shield regulators in my lows' because we all know that that's not what is going to happen, not with the extreme amount of fitting costs it would require - even on high end suits. I can see your point clearly, I just don't think it's as much of an issue as people are making it out to be. My opinion wouldn't change even if half of the modules listed above were somehow switched over to high-slots. That being said, what about Armor Tanking? Shield tankers can fit CPU/PG upgrades in their lows if they need it - but I can't. Do I get a free CPU/PG boost to accommodate my tanking style? { \| bittervetmode = 0 I } == Description == This player has recovered morale [[Category: Hopeful]]
Forlorn Destrier Havok Dynasty 2813	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:54:00 - [170] - Quote Kaughst wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Amarr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 grr...what is the point of playing Gal assault when amarr Ass. is only .5 away in rep. I do not understand the benefit of using the Gal assault anymore. For Gallente Assault, you get bonuses to hipfire dispersion and kick - ideal for the AR. For Amarr Assault you get reduction in heat build up - ideal for the scramber and laser rifles. So, which weapon do you prefer? Use the weapon that is paired with the suit, and accept the other features of the suit. I, personally, hate heat build up so I don't use laser and scramber rifles at all. Others hate dispersion, so they pick the Amarr. If your choice is based on passive reps, then pick the one you like better. In other words - pick the suit that matches your preferences and playstyle instead of complaining I am the Forgotten Warhorse, the Lord of Lightning

Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 118	Posted - 2014.10.24 02:59:00 - [171] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Shield Regulators Ferroscale Plates Reactive Plates Cardiac Regulators Kinetic Catalyzers Myrofibral Stimulants Profile Dampeners Range Enhancers CPU Upgrades PG Upgrades There's a lot list of things you can put in the low-slots when you run Shield Tanking. Your argument is more for 'I want to use more of my utility slots for utility' than 'I want to stack nothing but shield regulators in my lows' because we all know that that's not what is going to happen, not with the extreme amount of fitting costs it would require - even on high end suits. I can see your point clearly, I just don't think it's as much of an issue as people are making it out to be. My opinion wouldn't change even if half of the modules listed above were somehow switched over to high-slots. That being said, what about Armor Tanking? Shield tankers can fit CPU/PG upgrades in their lows if they need it - but I can't. Do I get a free CPU/PG boost to accommodate my tanking style? Do you have modules that cost 90cpu to fit? Weep not poor children, For life is this way, Murdering beauty and passion.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13814	Posted - 2014.10.24 03:03:00 - [172] - Quote Malleus Malificorum wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Shield Regulators Ferroscale Plates Reactive Plates Cardiac Regulators Kinetic Catalyzers Myrofibral Stimulants Profile Dampeners Range Enhancers CPU Upgrades PG Upgrades There's a lot list of things you can put in the low-slots when you run Shield Tanking. Your argument is more for 'I want to use more of my utility slots for utility' than 'I want to stack nothing but shield regulators in my lows' because we all know that that's not what is going to happen, not with the extreme amount of fitting costs it would require - even on high end suits. I can see your point clearly, I just don't think it's as much of an issue as people are making it out to be. My opinion wouldn't change even if half of the modules listed above were somehow switched over to high-slots. That being said, what about Armor Tanking? Shield tankers can fit CPU/PG upgrades in their lows if they need it - but I can't. Do I get a free CPU/PG boost to accommodate my tanking style? Do you have modules that cost 90cpu to fit? Simple answer? Reduce fitting costs. Not institute native armour reps. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Malleus Malificorum Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 118	Posted - 2014.10.24 03:44:00 - [173] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Malleus Malificorum wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Shield Regulators Ferroscale Plates Reactive Plates Cardiac Regulators Kinetic Catalyzers Myrofibral Stimulants Profile Dampeners Range Enhancers CPU Upgrades PG Upgrades There's a lot list of things you can put in the low-slots when you run Shield Tanking. Your argument is more for 'I want to use more of my utility slots for utility' than 'I want to stack nothing but shield regulators in my lows' because we all know that that's not what is going to happen, not with the extreme amount of fitting costs it would require - even on high end suits. I can see your point clearly, I just don't think it's as much of an issue as people are making it out to be. My opinion wouldn't change even if half of the modules listed above were somehow switched over to high-slots. That being said, what about Armor Tanking? Shield tankers can fit CPU/PG upgrades in their lows if they need it - but I can't. Do I get a free CPU/PG boost to accommodate my tanking style? Do you have modules that cost 90cpu to fit? Simple answer? Reduce fitting costs. Not institute native armour reps. You're treating the symptom, not the problem - wait, nope, you're not even doing that True. This game is not designed to have potentially unbreakable tanks like eve is, the speed at which armor users get shield back without modules sets a very bad double standard. Imagine having the 5+ minute long shield repair rate that old gunnlogi's had with passive repair increasing module on every armor dropsuit that wasn't fit with 'proper' shield modules and you might come close to understanding what it feels like to be a current shield tanker under the 'Slot Tax'. Native armor repair is not a bad thing. Weep not poor children, For life is this way, Murdering beauty and passion.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6783	Posted - 2014.10.24 04:23:00 - [174] - Quote Malleus Malificorum wrote: True Adamance wrote: Malleus Malificorum wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Shield Regulators Ferroscale Plates Reactive Plates Cardiac Regulators Kinetic Catalyzers Myrofibral Stimulants Profile Dampeners Range Enhancers CPU Upgrades PG Upgrades There's a lot list of things you can put in the low-slots when you run Shield Tanking. Your argument is more for 'I want to use more of my utility slots for utility' than 'I want to stack nothing but shield regulators in my lows' because we all know that that's not what is going to happen, not with the extreme amount of fitting costs it would require - even on high end suits. I can see your point clearly, I just don't think it's as much of an issue as people are making it out to be. My opinion wouldn't change even if half of the modules listed above were somehow switched over to high-slots. That being said, what about Armor Tanking? Shield tankers can fit CPU/PG upgrades in their lows if they need it - but I can't. Do I get a free CPU/PG boost to accommodate my tanking style? Do you have modules that cost 90cpu to fit? Simple answer? Reduce fitting costs. Not institute native armour reps. You're treating the symptom, not the problem - wait, nope, you're not even doing that True. This game is not designed to have potentially unbreakable tanks like eve is, the speed at which armor users get shield back without modules sets a very bad double standard. Imagine having the 5+ minute long shield repair rate that old gunnlogi's had with passive repair increasing module on every armor dropsuit that wasn't fit with 'proper' shield modules and you might come close to understanding what it feels like to be a current shield tanker under the 'Slot Tax'. Native armor repair is not a bad thing. Or you could just use one of those free low slots to fit a CPU extender... Since they have 0 fitting costs what-so-ever. It's a luxury most if not all armor tankers simply don't get the option of fitting because we desperately need to fit all the low slots we can with things that contribute to our tanking style; whereas the current argument here is simply, "because we have to if we want to make use of the armor that we don't tank". And if you really wanna bring Eve Online into the mix you really should consider the fact that most if not all shield tankers in Eve will -never- fit an armor repairer despite none of the ships having innate armor repair. I'd sooner give up my built-in repair as a Gal Assault to end the constant entitlement toward it from other players than say, "Yeah, let's make the same mistakes we made when the Logis all had 5 HP/sec built-in from skill bonuses." It's this players honest opinion that it's just not worth it and I think we're starting to go into a Call of Duty-esque mentality by entitling every player to the ability to have some kind of innate regen, regardless of how much it goes against that particular race's combat philosophy. As I said before, it's a draw-back of the Shield Tanker, and it never stopped anyone in the past two years. Not until now, at least. { \| bittervetmode = 0 I } == Description == This player has recovered morale [[Category: Hopeful]]
Gabriella Grey THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 199	Posted - 2014.10.24 04:24:00 - [175] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 I think this looks good for the most part Rattati. This is going to greatly help those who play Commandos across the boards, and I believe the same for Logistics players. I am a bit concerned about the Gallente and Amarr scout. If the Amarr scout will have a low armor repair, will it be able to tank more as a balance to the Gallente scout already being able to have passive reps while piling on the armor plates? I ask because I am just wondering if CCP's plans are still to make the Amarr Scout the tank of scouts or do you have a plan to change this in the near future? *Always Grey Skies* Leader of the Alpaca Commandos
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4254	Posted - 2014.10.24 05:34:00 - [176] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: - Also a godsend to us poor benighted logis, it's very hard to stay alive without passive reps.(I'm also very surprised that nobody has come out with the derpslayerlogi argument. Refreshing) I think with every single suit able to slay better than a Logi these days, that argument has finally been retired? We can only hope. Passive reps will help a ton for the humble slayer servants. glares at aeon amadi Apparently not. The struggle against illogic continues... (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18414	Posted - 2014.10.24 11:56:00 - [177] - Quote I feel the Gallente advantage in native reps should be more pronounced. Here's why: Each race has a notable advantage across all of their suits. Amarr - Have higher base armour (not counting the large stamina pool because that's paid for with the speed trade-off) Caldari - Have much higher shield regeneration rates and lower shield regeneration delays Minmatar - Have higher base speed and exceptional stamina recovery rates (admittedly less significant given their HP tradeoff. I'm going to quite confidently guess that the Minmatar suits are statistically less used, though) Gallente - Have... 0.5 HP/s advantage over the Amarr/Minmatar? 1 HP/s over the Caldari? For comparison, the Caldari regeneration advantage is much more significant. The gap is as wide as 20 HP/s in places and is never less than 10 HP/s, and typically they also have a few seconds shaved off the regen time. The Amarr armour HP advantage ranges from 40 to 75 HP. For the Gallente native repair to overcome this advantage would take 80-150 seconds - that is to say, a long time. 0.5-1 HP/s advantage does not compare to these. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 173	Posted - 2014.10.24 13:53:00 - [178] - Quote if base rep rate for gal gear is going up disproportionally to amarrian suits i feel a slight ehp buff might be nice. :3 NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8103	Posted - 2014.10.24 15:28:00 - [179] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I feel the Gallente advantage in native reps should be more pronounced. Here's why: Each race has a notable advantage across all of their suits. Amarr - Have higher base armour (not counting the large stamina pool because that's paid for with the speed trade-off) Caldari - Have much higher shield regeneration rates and lower shield regeneration delays Minmatar - Have higher base speed and exceptional stamina recovery rates (admittedly less significant given their HP tradeoff. I'm going to quite confidently guess that the Minmatar suits are statistically less used, though) Gallente - Have... 0.5 HP/s advantage over the Amarr/Minmatar? 1 HP/s over the Caldari? For comparison, the Caldari regeneration advantage is much more significant. The gap is as wide as 20 HP/s in places and is never less than 10 HP/s, and typically they also have a few seconds shaved off the regen time. The Amarr armour HP advantage ranges from 40 to 75 HP. For the Gallente native repair to overcome this advantage would take 80-150 seconds - that is to say, a long time. 0.5-1 HP/s advantage does not compare to these. I'll agree with what you're saying. I change my stance on the Gallente's 0.5 hp/s in exchange for something much higher. The current, as Ark has stated, is too close to the Amarr to the point where you might as well skill Amarr and have the extra health. The Amarr should be obvious when it cones to Health The Caldari should be obvious when it comes to Overall shields The Gallente should be obvious when it comes to Armor repair. The Minmatar should be obvious when it comes to working at late night Gastations. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 830	Posted - 2014.10.24 19:26:00 - [180] - Quote I would very much like this and have no objections. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621

Kaughst Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 757	Posted - 2014.10.25 18:45:00 - [181] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: Kaughst wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Amarr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 grr...what is the point of playing Gal assault when amarr Ass. is only .5 away in rep. I do not understand the benefit of using the Gal assault anymore. For Gallente Assault, you get bonuses to hipfire dispersion and kick - ideal for the AR. For Amarr Assault you get reduction in heat build up - ideal for the scramber and laser rifles. So, which weapon do you prefer? Use the weapon that is paired with the suit, and accept the other features of the suit. I, personally, hate heat build up so I don't use laser and scramber rifles at all. Others hate dispersion, so they pick the Amarr. If your choice is based on passive reps, then pick the one you like better. In other words - pick the suit that matches your preferences and playstyle instead of complaining Racial weapon bonuses have nothing to do with what I am talking about. The Amarr Ass. has increased stam. and armor at a expense of some speed. With the new rep added to amarr assault, the gal assault has relatively little to differentiate itself from amarr besides .5 rep and a increase in speed but it is irrelevant, while on par with cal assault, it is weighed down anyway by having to fit armor plates making the suit less efficient to capitalize on it's speed. I am speaking for all the other Gal frames and roles the only way to really contrast the gal and amarr (especially the assault) is to give the Gallente suits less penalties to speed while using armor plates, this is was talked about by CCP last year but their developers did not have the tools to implement it at the time. You have bad reading comprehension by the way. "Why do we fight?" "To win the war." "Meh... Works for me."
iWanderer PT-BR 6	Posted - 2014.10.25 20:01:00 - [182] - Quote I missed out on this post and only saw the deployment thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=178392 with final values and have responded in that thread, but I think only on the deployment thread it was also introduced the notion that basic fits should do better than racial. These are my proposed values: "Here a small lookup I made: Shield recharge Light Suits: ............................. Scout Suits: Basic Cal - 50.....................................Cal - 50 Basic Amarr - 30................................Amarr - 30 Basic Min - 40.....................................Min - 40 Basic Gal - 40.................................... Gal - 30 All the same except Gal light and Scout - should be fixed!! Medium Suits:................................... Assault Suits: Basic Cal - 30........................................ Cal - 30 Basic Amarr - 20 ...................................Amarr - 20 Basic Min - 25 ....................................... Min - 25 Basic Gal - 20........................................ Gal - 20 All the same. Heavy Suits: .....................................Sentinel Suits: Basic Cal - 30 .....................................Cal - 30 Basic Amarr - 15.................................Amarr - 15 Basic Min - 20..................................... Min - 20 Basic Gal 15 .......................................Gal - 15 All the same, note Gallente have half the shield regen then Caldari. Could be rebalanced... Proposed Armor Light Suits: ............................. Scout Suits: Basic Cal - 0,5.....................................Cal - 1 Basic Amarr - 1................................Amarr - 1,5 Basic Min - 1.....................................Min - 1,5 Basic Gal - 2.................................... Gal - 2,5 Medium Suits:................................... Assault Suits: Basic Cal - 1,5........................................ Cal - 2 Basic Amarr - 2 ...................................Amarr - 2,5 Basic Min - 2 ....................................... Min - 2,5 Basic Gal - 3........................................ Gal - 3,5 All the same. Heavy Suits: .....................................Sentinel Suits: Basic Cal - 1 .....................................Cal - 1,5 Basic Amarr - 1,5.................................Amarr - 2 Basic Min - 1,5..................................... Min - 2 Basic Gal 2,5 .......................................Gal - 3 Commandos: - Gal - Min - Amarr - Cal - should be 3,5 - 2,5 - 2,5 - 2 Logis - Same as assault or I think better, use basic medium values if to make then tougher... P.S: The theory that the basic suits should have more than racial does not apply for shields, than why for armor?..."
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 397	Posted - 2014.10.25 20:26:00 - [183] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: CCP Rattati wrote: Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 marr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 I like it partly because it is silent nerf to Repairing Tool with brings tons of free WP without any risks, and I dislike it because it is boost Caldari in way how they not suppose to be boost, it against racial bonuses. So actually I have mixed feelings. It's difficult to not have armor rep and at the same point fun because of it, right? We want to play challenging game or easy one? I understand that you want 'convice' players to use biotics more often by this, but people that want to use them today are using them today. There is just small problems with skill requirements applied to biotics for those who thinking about skilling them, with create rift between MLT and PRO versions, and so if someone is considering using MLT biotic or another armor plate or repair module he prefer not to use biotic.. could you focus on problem, and not on something that is the result of it? I think that if you really wanted to gave some passive rep ability to Logi and Commando suits, you should gave them it by applying them to Nanohives - it would not make sentinel even more stronger that they actually is. In my opinion Commando is not meant to be solo wolf, he ave that big signature for a reason, he suppose to stick to squad and logi with rep tool, and in return he should give bonuses to players in his proximity same as scouts with high passive scanning range, but different like: - Caldari Commando should give bonus to shield regen or he should cut shield deley timers. - Amarr Commando should give bonuses to resistance. - Gallente Comm.. to armor rep. etc. To proposed numbers specifically.. What does it meany to have 2AR/S on Gallente Sentinel?! With one usually have something between 600-1000 armor points? It is 300 to 500 seconds to fully repair critical damage, so that from 5 to 8 minutes while sentinel life spam(especially on ambush) is way much more sorter then 1 minute. 2AR/S will look different when skill will apply to this, but it seems to me a bit funny. In EVE when someone do not have armor rep he is flying around with hat damaged armor or structures until he dock on station and fix it, or someone will fix it for him with remote modules, drones - no one make problem because of this and force CCP to do some mechanic changes. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2025	Posted - 2014.10.25 20:35:00 - [184] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: CCP Rattati wrote: Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 marr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 I like it partly because it is silent nerf to Repairing Tool with brings tons of free WP without any risks, and I dislike it because it is boost Caldari in way how they not suppose to be boost, it against racial bonuses. So actually I have mixed feelings. It's difficult to not have armor rep and at the same point fun because of it, right? We want to play challenging game or easy one? I understand that you want 'convice' players to use biotics more often by this, but people that want to use them today are using them today. There is just small problems with skill requirements applied to biotics for those who thinking about skilling them, with create rift between MLT and PRO versions, and so if someone is considering using MLT biotic or another armor plate or repair module he prefer not to use biotic.. could you focus on problem, and not on something that is the result of it? I think that if you really wanted to gave some passive rep ability to Logi and Commando suits, you should gave them it by applying them to Nanohives - it would not make sentinel even more stronger that they actually is. In my opinion Commando is not meant to be solo wolf, he ave that big signature for a reason, he suppose to stick to squad and logi with rep tool, and in return he should give bonuses to players in his proximity same as scouts with high passive scanning range, but different like: - Caldari Commando should give bonus to shield regen or he should cut shield deley timers. - Amarr Commando should give bonuses to resistance. - Gallente Comm.. to armor rep. etc. To proposed numbers specifically.. What does it meany to have 2AR/S on Gallente Sentinel?! With one usually have something between 600-1000 armor points? It is 300 to 500 seconds to fully repair critical damage, so that from 5 to 8 minutes while sentinel life spam(especially on ambush) is way much more sorter then 1 minute. 2AR/S will look different when skill will apply to this, but it seems to me a bit funny. In EVE when someone do not have armor rep he is flying around with hat damaged armor or structures until he dock on station and fix it, or someone will fix it for him with remote modules, drones - no one make problem because of this and force CCP to do some mechanic changes. edit: don't you even think about basics suit at this point, ok? In Eve, shield and armor have the same HP values, armor reps aren't passive, and you can increase a given resistance. Mercs whine about the rail rifle but refuse to shield tank to counter it. But that's none of my business.
JIAF-PR 99	Posted - 2014.10.25 23:36:00 - [185] - Quote I suggest this: Gallente Commando 4.0 Logi 3.5 Sentinel 3.0 Assault 3.0 Scout 2.5 Minmatar Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr Commando 2.5 Logi 2.0 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.2 Caldari Commando 2.0 Logi 1.5 Sentinel 1.2 Assault 1.2 Scout 0.9 I think that exceed 3 hp/s maybe it much but it's the only way I see feasible to note that is the distinctive ability of the Gallente. Aside; why people complain so much for a difference of less than 1.0 hp/s, if the difference of the Minmatar and the Gallente at full speed with all low slots dedicated to kincats is only 0.01 m/s. Sorry for my English, JIAF-PR "Los grandes no son grandes sino porque estamos de rodillas. Levantémonos" GÇô Pedro Albizu Campos
Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 107	Posted - 2014.10.25 23:52:00 - [186] - Quote Hmmm im not sure on exact numbers, but im feeling raise the maximum of the scale, gal commando @ 5-6 hp/sec, to allow u more developmental "wiggle room", scale the rest accordingly along rattati's design, galmando down to cal scout. Essentially galmandos get a free repper, but that lets them chose more on their lows That's my bit for now, keep up the hard work CEO-Kirjuun Heiian-Caldari Faction Warfare Corp Join our public chat channel. Kirjuun Heiian
iWanderer PT-BR 6	Posted - 2014.10.26 09:21:00 - [187] - Quote I agree, a maximum of 5/6 on gal commando gives better room on rep down scale. I could revise my proposal to accomadate that.
Killer's Coys Prima Gallicus 127	Posted - 2014.10.26 13:27:00 - [188] - Quote 3.5HP/s for Gallogi and Galassault ? Why don't you give directly them 10HP/s ? If you want to make it OP, increase it again I see Rattati is a Galassault, much more PG/CPU... Cheat armor repair... Amazing passive armor repairer... Halalala..... Bala....whot ? 2.5HP/s was good, but apparently it wasn't enought cheat... With 3.5HP/s, you'll see 75% Galassault with 1100HP armor, and a good repair... Nice, very nice. The only balancing thing in the Galassault was the choose between armor tanking >< good armor repair. But with this change, you'll just make : Amazing tanking + nice armor repair >< very good tanking + amazing armor repair.... .... Wait and see Logibro, you're my boy
Templar XIII Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2014.10.26 13:42:00 - [189] - Quote The idea of small passive armor reps is not altogether bad, but... - why grant Minstar suits better armor regeneration than to Amarr suits, where the latter is armor only, the prior a hybrid tank with clear speed advantage (damage mitigation via strafing)? - why grant Sentinel suits worse regeneration than Assault suits (same argument as above)? I propose these two stats switchings in racial suits and role relation to make this whole.
Killer's Coys Prima Gallicus 127	Posted - 2014.10.26 13:54:00 - [190] - Quote I had You are increasing the armor repair. Let's do the same thing, but with shield, don't we ? Because at the moment (without this change) Galassault Gk.0 with 3 armor repair is getting ~30.5HP/s armor Calassault Ck.0 with 1 energizers, 2 regu (same number of slots) is getting ~50HP/s shield regen + 2,3sec shield regulator BUT - Armor tankers can have more and more armor (for example : ~700HP armor against 530 shield to have the same slots) - Armor is the second part of life (there are first the shield) - A flux and the shield is gone For me, an armor repair increasing is good, but do the same with shield My proposal for assaults - Amarr : 20HP/s - Gallente : 20HP/s - Minma : 30HP/s - Caldari : 35 or 40HP/s Logibro, you're my boy

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8119	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:20:00 - [191] - Quote Killer's Coys wrote: I had You are increasing the armor repair. Let's do the same thing, but with shield, don't we ? Because at the moment (without this change) Galassault Gk.0 with 3 armor repair is getting ~30.5HP/s armor Calassault Ck.0 with 1 energizers, 2 regu (same number of slots) is getting ~50HP/s shield regen + 2,3sec shield regulator BUT - Armor tankers can have more and more armor (for example : ~700HP armor against 530 shield to have the same slots) - Armor is the second part of life (there are first the shield) - A flux and the shield is gone For me, an armor repair increasing is good, but do the same with shield My proposal for assaults - Amarr : 20HP/s - Gallente : 20HP/s - Minma : 30HP/s - Caldari : 35 or 40HP/s You didn't list a single negative for armor you just listed the negatives for shield which is completely bias. 1. It takes three modules to even get to where your suit has built in shield regen 2. Anyone who Plate stacks their Gallente Assault is a fool that's waiting to get themselves insta-popped. 3. Strafing penalties of armor 4. Movement penalty of armor. 5. Sprinting speed of armor 6. WIth a complex Energizer and a Caldari suit with the rest of the highs being shield extenders you are getting about 600 shields, more than my Prototype Gallente suit. With might I add, the over 50 shield regen. 7.A Gallente Assault with three armor repairs will not have more than 600 armor and then realistically even less because proper Gallente assaults wouldn't stack two complex armor plates in their last two low slots to slow them down to base commando level. 8. Gallente and Amarr have half the shield regeneration rate of Caldari which starts at 30 hp/s, the previous two, 15 hp/s (for assaults) CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2028	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:36:00 - [192] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Killer's Coys wrote: I had You are increasing the armor repair. Let's do the same thing, but with shield, don't we ? Because at the moment (without this change) Galassault Gk.0 with 3 armor repair is getting ~30.5HP/s armor Calassault Ck.0 with 1 energizers, 2 regu (same number of slots) is getting ~50HP/s shield regen + 2,3sec shield regulator BUT - Armor tankers can have more and more armor (for example : ~700HP armor against 530 shield to have the same slots) - Armor is the second part of life (there are first the shield) - A flux and the shield is gone For me, an armor repair increasing is good, but do the same with shield My proposal for assaults - Amarr : 20HP/s - Gallente : 20HP/s - Minma : 30HP/s - Caldari : 35 or 40HP/s You didn't list a single negative for armor you just listed the negatives for shield which is completely bias. 1. It takes three modules to even get to where your suit has built in shield regen 2. Anyone who Plate stacks their Gallente Assault is a fool that's waiting to get themselves insta-popped. 3. Strafing penalties of armor 4. Movement penalty of armor. 5. Sprinting speed of armor 6. WIth a complex Energizer and a Caldari suit with the rest of the highs being shield extenders you are getting about 600 shields, more than my Prototype Gallente suit. With might I add, the over 50 shield regen. 7.A Gallente Assault with three armor repairs will not have more than 600 armor and then realistically even less because proper Gallente assaults wouldn't stack two complex armor plates in their last two low slots to slow them down to base commando level. 8. Gallente and Amarr have half the shield regeneration rate of Caldari which starts at 30 hp/s, the previous two, 15 hp/s (for assaults) All good points Kirk. Armor does however have the advantage of a recovering buffer that must be chewed through before reaching your primary tank. If shields break and you aren't dual tanking, you're basically hosed. However, native armor regen will mean that I don't have to sacrifice a low slot in order to get any sort of armor regen at all, so I don't see why we need to up shield regen as well. Gallente are gaining an extra 2hp/s and everyone else is getting around 2hp/s. On my CalAssault, I'll have 194 base armor which will come back in 97.5 seconds from 0 armor. A minute and a half for full regen of less than 200 armor. Laughable for actual combat use. All this does is allow my CalAssault to drop that damn reactive plate for another regulator or perhaps a kincat. Gallente should have the highest armor regen since that is their tanking method. I see no problem. Mercs whine about the rail rifle but refuse to shield tank to counter it. But that's none of my business.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8119	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:51:00 - [193] - Quote Yes, as you said, the main benefit of this change is that you guys can finally get rid of a reactive or armor repair in place of a much more useful module. CPU extender or Another regulator maybe, you can do a lot with low slots, which I'm jealous of because I can only do two things with highslots. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
iWanderer PT-BR 6	Posted - 2014.10.26 15:35:00 - [194] - Quote Just posted in response to Lloyd Orfay, post https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2420311#post2420311 ...."In sum, and that I think Gal should be top armorers, you values are good with a few changes or my proposal thats gets a good Beta value across the board, with exception to Gal and Min Scout. Your proposal with 4hp for Gal Assualt could compensate for the suit bonus fiasco, but thats another discussion. This should be looked at because not all suits are the same in regard to armor, shield, shield regen and in sum, total hp. The revision should not be simple and say give commando and logi in all cases the same becausa total hp is not the same. CCP Rattati, have you tried this approach with Beta Value?"
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18462	Posted - 2014.10.26 16:48:00 - [195] - Quote Killer's Coys wrote: I had You are increasing the armor repair. Let's do the same thing, but with shield, don't we ? Because at the moment (without this change) Galassault Gk.0 with 3 armor repair is getting ~30.5HP/s armor Calassault Ck.0 with 1 energizers, 2 regu (same number of slots) is getting ~50HP/s shield regen + 2,3sec shield regulator BUT - Armor tankers can have more and more armor (for example : ~700HP armor against 530 shield to have the same slots) No, they can't. Under your fits: With an energizer fitted on a Calassault Ck.0 you can attain 614 shields with extenders. With three armour repairers fitted on a Galassault Gk.0 you can attain maximum 640 armour, though nobody actually runs this fit because it takes up 3/4 of the powergrid. Quote: - Armor is the second part of life (there are first the shield) This... is not a disadvantage? Quote: - A flux and the shield is gone A locus and the armour tanker is dead. Yes, a flux will wreck your shields. It will not, however, kill you. This proposal is almost entirely a buff to shield tankers. 1 or 2 HP/s is utterly negligible to anyone fitting three reps. It will, however, remove the need to fit a reactive or rep on a shield tanking suit, freeing up a slot for the impressive array of utility modules available to shield tankers. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Ansla Valier One Corps 0	Posted - 2014.10.26 17:01:00 - [196] - Quote Not a bad idea. One of the things I always look at when creating/updating fittings is the total time to get back to 100% armor from 0 health. For anything but heavies I try to keep this close to or under 60 seconds. It's enough time to recover and get back into the fight and less than that means I'm trading plates for reppers. Before the 1.8 repec I had all my skill points in Caldari assault but kept getting mowed down. Switched to Gallente and had no regrets. The shield regen increase at the cost of total ehp wasn't helping because my ehp was so low I'd always be dead before getting a chance to take advantage of the regen. Right now Assault C-1 has 194 armor with the skill armor 5. For me the difference would be swapping an enhanced armor repairer with complex reactive plates. So down 2.75 hp/s, up 66 armor, -1% movement. Not a huge difference but definitively an improvement. I still think shields or shield depleted recharge delay for shield tanked assault suits needs fixed but this will help a bit. It's still not enough that I'd reskill Caldari assault. Unless I'm a heavy it seems like most of my deaths still happen within under 10 seconds of engaging enemies when I'm at 80-100% hp going into the fight. Trading armor for shield regen still doesn't seem worth it to me overall.
Killer's Coys Prima Gallicus 127	Posted - 2014.10.26 19:45:00 - [197] - Quote Yeah... Maybe I've said those things badly... No problem For me there are a problem with Caldari assault (and minmassault who are shield tankers) I agree with all you have said, but just for proto suits Actually, I'm speaking about basic assault And, with the passive armor repair, I'll be able to fit a shield regulator, but just 1... So I'll be getting 3sec shield recharge delay (and 3.95 for dep.) The problem (for ME) is that when you are in a fight against a Gallente (with amor repair for example) if you hide for short time (~3/4 sec) Caldari isn't getting back her shield, but Gallente will get +60HP That's. So conclusion : passive shield recharge delay is to long for me... (for minma and calda assaults) A racial suit bonus ? Or like the Calda heavies ? I'm for the second. Why don't have assaults the same thing as the heavies ? When you have lost ALL your shield, the delay is just 1sec (or 2, but not 6) And the normal delay (when shield isn't totaly gone) stay the same. I know I'm totaly out of the topic, but I think this is an interesting question. I really like my last idea (about getting the same thing as the Calda heavy) Thought ? Logibro, you're my boy
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18470	Posted - 2014.10.26 20:40:00 - [198] - Quote Killer's Coys wrote: Actually, I'm speaking about basic assault And, with the passive armor repair, I'll be able to fit a shield regulator, but just 1... So I'll be getting 3sec shield recharge delay (and 3.95 for dep.) The problem (for ME) is that when you are in a fight against a Gallente (with amor repair for example) if you hide for short time (~3/4 sec) Caldari isn't getting back her shield, but Gallente will get +60HP That's. Alright, let's talk about these numbers. For the Gallente assault to get +60 HP in those 3 seconds, they're going to be using 2 complex modules. Let's do a comparison. The Caldari assault is using a regulator + recharger. The Gallente assault is using two repairers. At the basic level, the Caldari assault will also be able to fit two shield extenders in its highs. The Caldari assault gets 45 HP/s with a 3s shield delay. The Gallente assault gets 20 HP/s with no delay. With their slot layouts, the Caldari assault can fit two extenders and the Gallente assault can fit one plate, after the other slots are filled. This leaves the Caldari assault with 490 shields and the Gallente assault with 492 armour HP. This is pretty much equal. The Gallente assault has a movement penalty, though. Let's look at the regeneration rates. After 3 seconds, the Gallente assault has regenerated 62 HP. At that point the Caldari's shield regen kicks in. After another three seconds the Caldari regen overtakes the Gallente regen, at 135 HP regenerated vs 125 HP. The gap keeps getting wider after that point. So as you can see, the shield regeneration far outpaces the armour repair rate. It would do so even without the regulator and even with the depleted recharge. In the immediate short term, the Gallente assault will have a slight advantage. That's how armour works - as a brawler that doesn't get the chance to back off for extended periods. In every other term, however, the Caldari shield regeneration is far superior to the Gallente armour repair rate. Quote: So conclusion : passive shield recharge delay is to long for me... (for minma and calda assaults) A racial suit bonus ? Or like the Calda heavies ? I'm for the second. Why don't have assaults the same thing as the heavies ? When you have lost ALL your shield, the delay is just 1sec (or 2, but not 6) And the normal delay (when shield isn't totaly gone) stay the same. If it's too long, then chances are you're using the wrong tanking style. Shields have a short delay, but once they start going they regenerate very, very quickly. Armour has no delay but the regeneration rate is far outpaced by shields. Given that the shield regeneration rates are obviously already well ahead of armour regeneration rates, I don't see the need to buff them further. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8120	Posted - 2014.10.27 02:12:00 - [199] - Quote So just to summarize this page on this thread for those that don't want to read it. Shield suits are not at a disadvantage like they'd like to think, they just do not fit their suits and play to the suits advantages like they are supposed to. Long story short, stay on your side of the field damn Caldari. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 108	Posted - 2014.10.27 03:06:00 - [200] - Quote Shields are awesome, regen tanking is tough, takes discipline,a well balanced fit, u gotta know ur ranges too. CEO-Kirjuun Heiian-Caldari Faction Warfare Corp Join our public chat channel. Kirjuun Heiian

Middas Betancore Kirjuun Heiian 111	Posted - 2014.10.27 03:18:00 - [201] - Quote Arkenas math shows the crux of it, once my shields kick in, the gap widens quickly If I take 1 dmg though....I lose another few seconds Back on track im still of the mindset the overall range should increase, allowing the gal suits a real "bonus" at the high end(3-7hp/sec) Allowing more room for a variety moving down through ammar/ minmatar (2-5hp/sec) And giving the cal something at least "workable" (1-2.5) hp/sec I know it's rough, im working on a full table But I agree commandos and mediums getting the higher end of reps Commandos get a nice slight buff to sustained combat Mediums get more flexibility in their lows Sentinels need logis for maximum efficiency...still....good Scouts can make up their own mind....have reppers...or don't Hope this helps/strikes a chord CEO-Kirjuun Heiian-Caldari Faction Warfare Corp Join our public chat channel. Kirjuun Heiian
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2029	Posted - 2014.10.27 06:18:00 - [202] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Yes, as you said, the main benefit of this change is that you guys can finally get rid of a reactive or armor repair in place of a much more useful module. CPU extender or Another regulator maybe, you can do a lot with low slots, which I'm jealous of because I can only do two things with highslots. Personally, I think we need to switch damage mods to lows and move some other things like biotics and codebreakers to the highs... but that's a discussion all its own. As for native reps, I've long held the belief that everyone should have had them from the start. Templar XIII wrote: - why grant Minstar suits better armor regeneration than to Amarr suits, where the latter is armor only, the prior a hybrid tank with clear speed advantage (damage mitigation via strafing)? - why grant Sentinel suits worse regeneration than Assault suits (same argument as above)? -Because Amarr tank with a large health pool using plates, and Minmatar tank with quick recovery using reps and energizers. Amarr shouldn't have both high health and high reps, that's definitely OP. -Same as above. Sentinels tank using raw health. Mediums are more about recovering health. Giving sentinels high health and high recovery is OP. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8121	Posted - 2014.10.27 06:28:00 - [203] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Personally, I think we need to switch damage mods to lows and move some other things like biotics and codebreakers to the highs... but that's a discussion all its own. I could very well get behind that, it would be difficult to fit on a Caldari suit without Sacrificing something because of the high amount of CPU but you can offset that with A CPU enhancer. If we could move Codebreakers, Kinetic Catalyzers and Cardiac Regulators to highslots then I wouldn't mind trading in Damage Modifiers. Codebreakers however should not take up that much PG. That's ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as the Allotek Plasma Cannon taking 117 CPU but 0 PG. That's right, Plasma Cannon takes 0 PG and it makes absolutely no sense. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 656	Posted - 2014.10.27 06:32:00 - [204] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Personally, I think we need to switch damage mods to lows and move some other things like biotics and codebreakers to the highs... but that's a discussion all its own. I could very well get behind that, it would be difficult to fit on a Caldari suit without Sacrificing something because of the high amount of CPU but you can offset that with A CPU enhancer. If we could move Codebreakers, Kinetic Catalyzers and Cardiac Regulators to highslots then I wouldn't mind trading in Damage Modifiers. Codebreakers however should not take up that much PG. That's ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as the Allotek Plasma Cannon taking 117 CPU but 0 PG. That's right, Plasma Cannon takes 0 PG and it makes absolutely no sense. Add PG modules to that list. They should be High slots anyway, and stop taking up CPU. Swag-suit4lyfe!
iWanderer PT-BR 6	Posted - 2014.10.27 07:35:00 - [205] - Quote In regard to armor repping, check out a new spreadsheet I made in post: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2421336#post2421336
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2032	Posted - 2014.10.27 07:55:00 - [206] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Personally, I think we need to switch damage mods to lows and move some other things like biotics and codebreakers to the highs... but that's a discussion all its own. I could very well get behind that, it would be difficult to fit on a Caldari suit without Sacrificing something because of the high amount of CPU but you can offset that with A CPU enhancer. If we could move Codebreakers, Kinetic Catalyzers and Cardiac Regulators to highslots then I wouldn't mind trading in Damage Modifiers. Codebreakers however should not take up that much PG. That's ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as the Allotek Plasma Cannon taking 117 CPU but 0 PG. That's right, Plasma Cannon takes 0 PG and it makes absolutely no sense. The idea is that Armor gets more health and consistent regen to last through a heavy assault, but has movement penalties which can be made up for with biotics. Shield would have less health but good regen and extra damage to hit-and-run. Really, 0 PG? Surely that's a typo. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18476	Posted - 2014.10.27 08:59:00 - [207] - Quote Nope, plasma cannon takes 0 PG. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Operative 1125 Lokaas True Companion Planetary Requisitions 536	Posted - 2014.10.27 11:22:00 - [208] - Quote Make vehicles like this too. So extra low slot for Cal vehicles. THIS IS THE VOICE OF RÁN
Mell caneva Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 152	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:17:00 - [209] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong now) Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 Lets se... First sorry for the bad translation The Gall scout is strong, but novody uses 4 cmplx arnor plates on, also, if u do, the speed is like 6.60 or less, . The caldari shield repair is about the 35% of the base shield, is the dropsuit with more shield repair of all, the gall scout is right now the dropsuit with best repair rate of all dropsuits, and then of the update it will be the one with the worst repair rate, us have to put more, like 4.5, because the scout dont have very much HP. And anyways, all the caldari scouts have 4 cmplx shield and armor plates, most of the gal scouts uses like much 2 armor plates... Regards and sorry for my english GÖÑGÖí\|\| \o(^-¤)o/ \|\| pÇèAgradecer no cuesta nada, no mezquines un Like ;)pÇï \|\| \o(^-¤)o/ \|\|GÖíGÖÑ
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4275	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:20:00 - [210] - Quote Mell caneva wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong now) Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 Lets se... First sorry for the bad translation The Gall scout is strong, but novody uses 4 cmplx arnor plates on, also, if u do, the speed is like 6.60 or less, . The caldari shield repair is about the 35% of the base shield, is the dropsuit with more shield repair of all, the gall scout is right now the dropsuit with best repair rate of all dropsuits, and then of the update it will be the one with the worst repair rate, us have to put more, like 4.5, because the scout dont have very much HP. And anyways, all the caldari scouts have 4 cmplx shield and armor plates, most of the gal scouts uses like much 2 armor plates... Regards and sorry for my english The last thing that needs to happen right now is to buff the Gal scout. No thanks. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Mell caneva Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 152	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:25:00 - [211] - Quote That was just comparing all the gal dropsuits The gal scout is perfect right now, 3 pr/s is ok, i think the caldaris need a little shield repair nerf :/ GÖÑGÖí\|\| \o(^-¤)o/ \|\| pÇèAgradecer no cuesta nada, no mezquines un Like ;)pÇï \|\| \o(^-¤)o/ \|\|GÖíGÖÑ
Killer's Coys Prima Gallicus 127	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:12:00 - [212] - Quote Mell caneva wrote: That was just comparing all the gal dropsuits The gal scout is perfect right now, 3 pr/s is ok, i think the caldaris need a little shield repair nerf :/ LOL Keep the 2 like this, nerf the cloack time decloacking and it's done. Logibro, you're my boy
Myron Kundera The Generals 84	Posted - 2014.10.27 21:11:00 - [213] - Quote Seems fair, all suits shield regen without modules, so yeah, all suits should armor regen as well i guess, BUT, the Gallente need to repair more, with an amount that would make you want to run a Gallente suit for armor reps, cause if not, whats the point? armor reps was supposed to be our thing right? "Greed, the forgotten mental disease" "Spray and pray makes my day" "Will use proto gear in self defense"
jace silencerww Second-Nature 64	Posted - 2014.10.27 21:26:00 - [214] - Quote YAY! finally I can use my basic caldari commando again with no low slot I have no way to regen armor.
JIAF-PR 100	Posted - 2014.10.28 14:16:00 - [215] - Quote A suggestion of the Spanish forum; why do not you just put the armor repair to the Gallente (the repair with good armor tanking race) and the Minmatar (the regeneration/repair with low hp race). This is just an idea that I translate because it seems like nobody suggested; I like the current proposal, but the complaints make this another good proposal for me. Sorry for my English, JIAF-PR "Los grandes no son grandes sino porque estamos de rodillas. Levantémonos" GÇô Pedro Albizu Campos
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2181	Posted - 2014.10.28 15:34:00 - [216] - Quote Humm I thought 2.0 rep a sec was fair on the Gall scout...... ninja supa sekrittt nerf to 1.5 reps per sec...... I think I can live with that but it was a little sneaky "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2937	Posted - 2014.10.28 16:46:00 - [217] - Quote soaks in galmando armor rep madness Fix mouse support in Dust 514! How to do it: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=965407#post965407
Cody Sietz Evzones Public.Disorder. 4095	Posted - 2014.10.28 19:41:00 - [218] - Quote I like the changes, but wouldn't it have been a good idea to lower shield regain on the Caldari scout as well? Most Caldari scout stack extenders and even with the recent buff to the CalAssault the scout, the CalScout just out does it in most every area. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1192	Posted - 2014.10.29 09:00:00 - [219] - Quote Myron Kundera wrote: Seems fair, all suits shield regen without modules, so yeah, all suits should armor regen as well i guess, BUT, the Gallente need to repair more, with an amount that would make you want to run a Gallente suit for armor reps, cause if not, whats the point? armor reps was supposed to be our thing right? Partly true. There was another suit that specifically mentioned having reactive plates built in. The Min assault says it has reactives,remember the old 1hp/s it used to have? Now you know why. Then again,reactives reduce speed...And the min assault isn't slower. And it also does say they are high slot oriented,but with the copy and paste from their logistics counterpart CCP shat all over that. So... Lolidunno Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3334	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:35:00 - [220] - Quote Meee One wrote: Myron Kundera wrote: Seems fair, all suits shield regen without modules, so yeah, all suits should armor regen as well i guess, BUT, the Gallente need to repair more, with an amount that would make you want to run a Gallente suit for armor reps, cause if not, whats the point? armor reps was supposed to be our thing right? Partly true. There was another suit that specifically mentioned having reactive plates built in. The Min assault says it has reactives,remember the old 1hp/s it used to have? Now you know why. Then again,reactives reduce speed...And the min assault isn't slower. And it also does say they are high slot oriented,but with the copy and paste from their logistics counterpart CCP shat all over that. So... Lolidunno Doesn't the Standard Reactive have 1HP and 0% Speed reduction? I could be wrong. Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs

Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1209	Posted - 2014.10.30 02:57:00 - [221] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Meee One wrote: Myron Kundera wrote: Seems fair, all suits shield regen without modules, so yeah, all suits should armor regen as well i guess, BUT, the Gallente need to repair more, with an amount that would make you want to run a Gallente suit for armor reps, cause if not, whats the point? armor reps was supposed to be our thing right? Partly true. There was another suit that specifically mentioned having reactive plates built in. The Min assault says it has reactives,remember the old 1hp/s it used to have? Now you know why. Then again,reactives reduce speed...And the min assault isn't slower. And it also does say they are high slot oriented,but with the copy and paste from their logistics counterpart CCP shat all over that. So... Lolidunno Doesn't the Standard Reactive have 1HP and 0% Speed reduction? I could be wrong. True. But it still doesn't explain why a high slot oriented suit has 4/4,instead of 4/3 considering all the free eHP they were recently given. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2086	Posted - 2014.10.30 06:41:00 - [222] - Quote 'After playing with some Gallente fits, I agree with Sgt. Kirk on increasing Gallente reps, perhaps even by 1.5hp/s. As their primary tank and defining feature, they should be head and shoulders above the rest of the dropsuits. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1222	Posted - 2014.10.31 11:44:00 - [223] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: 'After playing with some Gallente fits, I agree with Sgt. Kirk on increasing Gallente reps, perhaps even by 1.5hp/s. As their primary tank and defining feature, they should be head and shoulders above the rest of the dropsuits. Or,instead of more free hand outs... Give all Gallente suits built-in proficiency bonuses to rep modules. Reactives too.Amount repaired,not armor supplied. So if a Gal and Amarr assault were to compete in reps for example. The Gal assault could/would have a 5hp/s advantage. But the built-in armor bonuses the Amarr suits get would/could give it extra armor in exchange. This would guide players to certain tanking styles,and gimp others,such as dual tanking. Cal would get proficiency to extenders and rechargers/energizers. Min could/would be regulators and reduction to plate speed penalty. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Mell caneva Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 157	Posted - 2014.11.01 05:45:00 - [224] - Quote CCP: A tomar por culo el Dust, aprendan a hacer un juego y luego vengan a estafar para comprar aurums, yo me piro a pa mierd@ de esta porqueria, me jodieron todos los p*tos roles, uno por uno, manga de parasitos, estafadores, desconsiderados y mentirosos. Y encina hasta nos sacan el soporte en espa+¦ol. CCPendejos: Me sacaron lo mejor que tenia, tatuar "Creodon" en cada culo que encontraba. Aprendan a hacer un juego nuvs
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4831	Posted - 2014.11.05 20:37:00 - [225] - Quote At 1.5 it will take the Caldari Sentinel 4 minutes to rep from 0 to full.* With 2 (which is what I originally proposed for Caldari Sentinel) it would take 3 minutes. This leads to a question. How long should it take a suit to rep from 0 to full on native suit rep alone? I think this probably depends on the suit type. I would think something like 1 minute for Scouts, 2 minutes for Assault, 2.5 for Logi and Commandos, and 3 minutes for Sentinels. You could argue for longer native suit repair times, but I would like to see your reasoning. * I have a photo of my Caldari Sentinel with 0 Armour and full Shields. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
iWanderer PT-BR 10	Posted - 2014.11.05 22:09:00 - [226] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: At 1.5 it will take the Caldari Sentinel 4 minutes to rep from 0 to full.* With 2 (which is what I originally proposed for Caldari Sentinel) it would take 3 minutes. This leads to a question. How long should it take a suit to rep from 0 to full on native suit rep alone? In regard to your queries, I made a spreadsheet that shows rep time for all in my other post: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2421336#post2421336 Spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLpG42z7QGHWlhGdVh1T3NCVE0/view?usp=sharing
TIMMY DAVIS Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2014.11.05 22:39:00 - [227] - Quote I haven't read all of the responses, but I think this should be a skill. Level 1 - 1 HP / Sec Level 2 - 1.5 HP Level 3 - 2.0 HP Level 4 - 2.5 HP Level 5 - 3.0 HP Then add bonuses or penalties for Race or Drop Suit type or maybe equipment. Commando suits +2 Sentinel suits +1.0 or 1.5 Light suits -.5 or 1 Cloaks -.25 or .5 If you have more than 2 repair modules - cut the skill by .5. Assaults +1 Logi's +.5 Gallente +.5 or 1 Caldari -.5 or 1 I'm just throwing numbers around. I didn't add all of the numbers together to see what would happen in this case or that case. I'm just suggesting an alternate way of calculating things if it were skill based primarily instead of race or suit.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4834	Posted - 2014.11.06 00:17:00 - [228] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players we have been discussing this topic on and off for quite a while, especially concerning shield tanking, and the inherent need to always use a low slot to have "any" armor reps, which is bad for shield tanking, and quite hampering for racial fitting styles. We are not proposing this, but would like to get your opinions on the general idea that we have been formulating (particularly with CPM Logi and Commando threads), and it ties well into empowering Logis and Commandos on top. Without further ado: Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 4 (1.00) Logi 3.5 (2.00) Sentinel 3.0 (1.00) Assault 3.5 (2.00) Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now) Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 3.5 Logi 3.0 Sentinel 2.5 Assault 2.0 Scout 1.5 Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 3.0 Logi 2.5 Sentinel 2.0 Assault 1.5 Scout 1.0 Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 2.5 Logi 2 Sentinel 1.5 Assault 1 Scout 0.5 If we translate these numbers into the time it takes to replenish base suit armor from 0 to full we get the following: (We donGÇÖt survive dropping below 1 often, but we often survive dropping close to 0.) Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings Commando 1.67 minutes Logi 0.86 minutes Sentinel 2.92 minutes Assault 1.31 minutes Scout 1.08 minutes Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen Commando 1.38 minutes Logi 0.83 minutes Sentinel 3.07 minutes Assault 1.58 minutes Scout 0.78 minutes Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp Commando 2.67 minutes Logi 1.4 minutes Sentinel 5 minutes Assault 3.5 minutes Scout 2.83 minutes Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot) Commando 1.67 minutes Logi 0.75 minutes Sentinel 4.33 minutes Assault 2.58 minutes Scout 2.33 minutes Do these values seem to be where they should be? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
JIAF-PR 103	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:07:00 - [229] - Quote These are the numbers implemented CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Amarr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 "Los grandes no son grandes sino porque estamos de rodillas. Levantémonos" GÇô Pedro Albizu Campos
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 314	Posted - 2014.11.06 04:49:00 - [230] - Quote I like it. However, I think you should normalize Gallente and Minmatar inherent reps (by buffing Minmatar). I know, Gallente are the rep kings so why should they be equal to the Minmatar? Because I think you should add a percent bonus to the rep value of an armor repairer when used on a gallente suit. Beyond that which the Armor rep skill gives (the efficacy bonus) to increase their rep values. Obviously other races would not get this bonus.

iWanderer PT-BR 10	Posted - 2014.11.06 07:22:00 - [231] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I think these values mostly look good, but there are some anomalies. (See Stuff that does not look quite right below.) The Minmitar Suits can recover faster than the Gallente suits, but the Gallente reps are greater. This means the Minmitar can get back into the fight faster, but the Gallente rep rate gives a greater EHP during the fight. I think this is working as intended. I think long recovery times for Amarr is fine as they have the slots to fit Armor Repair modules, although 5 minutes recovery time on the Amarr Sentinel seems like a bit much. Stuff that does not look quite right: -Should it take 4.33 minutes for a suit with no Low Slot (Cal Sent) to recover from a near death experience? -Should the Cal Logi be able to recover all its armor in 45 seconds? (6 seconds faster than Gal Logi and 5 seconds faster than Min Logi) In response to time to recover, remember - the shield rate is not being changed, only armor. So take for instant Caldari have a better time to recover full shields and less in armor. Maybe at this point it should be like that according to the Beta fector in my spread, in the graphs. - Amarr with more hp should take more time to recover. - In my sheet the Logi suit is fixed Also, Fox, those are not the final values that were implemented and now anulled and waiting to be reimplemented. In answer if this or that should have more or less time, use my spreadsheet and try out different values.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4840	Posted - 2014.11.06 12:40:00 - [232] - Quote iWanderer wrote: Also, Fox, those are not the final values that were implemented and now anulled and waiting to be reimplemented. In answer if this or that should have more or less time, use my spreadsheet and try out different values. Well Rettati could have had the decency of editing his post with the final numbers. I spent a lot of time doing those calculations. I am old school and used a calculator with pen and paper. I believe that native armor repair is a recovery stat, not a combat stat, so it is important to balance on recovery times, not just the straight rep. It is a matter of looking from a different perspective to give the numbers more context. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 212	Posted - 2014.11.07 09:21:00 - [233] - Quote I would like to see the gk bonus higher it is no longer a unique bonus so the one slot general should be void. With each other classes bonus plus ours they are at around 2 slot equivalent which we to should meet so I would like to see at least 6.5 for assaults that is amar assault (other armor suits) + 2 basic repair modules (5hp/s) = 6.5; it should really be higher since it is no longer a unique bonus. Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
jaksol JAK darnson Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2014.11.07 15:54:00 - [234] - Quote Dremel wp wrote: +1 for putting commando and logi on top. Gallente looks strong, but if all suits are getting this it may be relative. I'm afraid of tanked gallente with stand off weapons with this iteration. Caldari numbers look good. Minmatar hybrid tank/flexibility will be interesting. I think this really opens up the utility of Minmatar suits. There will be no 'bad' module to put on a minnie suit. ok first galante scout is perfect as is acts like a minmatar assaut suit thou? this thread just got 20% cooler
Mahal Daj Mahal Tactical Enterprises 102	Posted - 2014.11.14 19:32:00 - [235] - Quote While this seems all well and fair, consider the fact that dust is one of the few games where we must take into account 'injured' soldiers as part of the overall strategy. While I think native reps on all suits is fair-play, I caution against the unintended consequence of removing the 'dealing with being injured' concept. Perhaps native reps shouldn't function while the shield is depleted? See my Post on Crashes: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2413361#post2413361
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1192	Posted - 2014.11.15 06:10:00 - [236] - Quote if a caldari nanohive can achieve 70-140hp per second armor rep. i dont see the point of chooseing gallente with a +2-3 hp/s advantage. if i fit all my slots with repairers on a proto suit itd cost more than a single proto nanohive on a cheaper brick tanked suit id wager and would be at least 20-90hp less effective. for a so called 'rep king' thats silly. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1192	Posted - 2014.11.15 06:22:00 - [237] - Quote Mahal Daj wrote: While this seems all well and fair, consider the fact that dust is one of the few games where we must take into account 'injured' soldiers as part of the overall strategy. While I think native reps on all suits is fair-play, I caution against the unintended consequence of removing the 'dealing with being injured' concept. Perhaps native reps shouldn't function while the shield is depleted? absolutely not. that completely defeats the concept of racial tanks. gal are armor rep brawlers. i get as close as i can as fast as i can. i eat your attacks head on and out rep your damage and i out dps you and kill you before the battle progresses long enough for the damage to break my rep tank. the longer the battle is the worse off i am. this is how gal are supposed to operate. if my repairer didnt work without shield i might as well just start a new character and change race cause everything that the gallente have come to be would be destroyed in an instant. shields mean nothing on an amarr or gallente suit. and should have no bearing on the ability for either of those races to rep. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 11477	Posted - 2014.11.17 08:31:00 - [238] - Quote Idea discussed long and hard, implemented with a lot of feedback from the Community, thanks everyone. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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