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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
600
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Posted - 2014.10.22 07:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is wrong. Adding armor reps to caldari suits just highlights the problem with shield tanking. Shield tanking needs to be a self sufficient and viable form of defense that provides it's users with a level of satisfactory confidence in their overall survivability.
Armor tankers do not say "oh no, my shields are gone, I need to wait for them to recharge now or I'll die"
Shield tankers need to be able to say " as long as I'm alive, I can fight."
Shield tankers should never have to worry about not having armor. You need to improve shield tanking, instead of giving armor reps to a purely shield tanking race.
Give caldari suits a damage threshold like vehicles have for a start. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
601
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Posted - 2014.10.22 11:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:Some issues here:
- Buffing armor reps on Caldari suits seems counter-intuitive. Are we supposed to be fitting an armor tank on those now?
(For reference: None of my Caldari suits have armor plates or reps so far.)
- There's a one-sided element of powercreep here. All armor tankers are being buffed by a certain amount where as shield based suits are affected muss less, both in absolute numbers and in effect on gameplay due to the limited armor buffer.
Don't get me wrong, my Amarr and Gallente suits would love this, but once in a while I like to mess around in my Caldari Assault and Sentinel, too.
What was the core problem you were trying to solve? If you state that we can maybe discuss alternative measures. Helping New players that don't understand that they need to rep Helping Shield tankers use their low slots for regulators instead of always allocating one to a reactive/rep for that minimum 1hp/s Helping versatility, ferroscale usually gets dumped for a reactive, kincats, etc. Having a mandatory slot requirement to be reps is not fun
I dont understand why as a Caldari player, I need to armor rep? I don't use armor mods at all. why not provide a better NPE to highlight this?
Why are we using reactive/rep instead of regulators? for our tiny armor base? our armor shouldnt even be considered as part of our defense.
why is armor reps mandatory on a shield tanking suit? our shield tanks must not be strong enough if this is the case.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
601
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Posted - 2014.10.22 11:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Helping New players that don't understand that they need to rep
Helping Shield tankers use their low slots for regulators instead of always allocating one to a reactive/rep for that minimum 1hp/s
Helping versatility, ferroscale usually gets dumped for a reactive, kincats, etc. Having a mandatory slot requirement to be reps is not fun Thanks for going into more detail. 1. Can you explain how native repping conveys the need to fit a repper? A shield suit needs no repper and armor starter suits have them prefitted, right? If you're worrying about new players that select a shield-heavy race and never learn about reppers I'd guess the 'selected race <-> starter fit race' link should be broken up so everyone can see what a shield and armor based suit looks like. On the other hand, by the time a player moves on from his own race's suits he will probably have gotten a picture of the available modules in the game. 2. Personally, if I had innate reps I'd drop a regulator to fit more armor on my Caldari suits. Isn't that the logical thing to do? This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be provocative here. If the issue is that shield-heavy suits can't utilize a certain part of their tank in their second or third engagement we can maybe discuss shoveling some more suit-armor hp into suit-shields. 3. There is no mandatory slot requirement as far as I'm aware? My Caldari suits work with no reps? I know that running around with 50 armor hp missing is concerning, but by that time I'm on a 5 kill streak. Does anyone really complain about not being on full-hp anymore in their 3rd or n-th engagement? I don't think our main focus should be balancing suits for their ability to go on 10-kill streaks.
good points.
adding armor attributes to shield tanks may cause some people to think that all suits should hybrid tank. which is what I thought we wanted to avoid a few months ago.
i can have zero armor and still be effective. i know that as long as im alive and have ammo i can fight. i just have to be careful about taking damage. recovering 500 shields never takes me more than ~7 to 10 seconds. and most of the time i can work with less than that.
if youre getting knocked into armor as caldari, then youre doing it wrong. only time im in armor is when i get greedy with the kills, and dont recover my shields in between fighting multiple targets at once. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
603
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 12:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:Some issues here:
- Buffing armor reps on Caldari suits seems counter-intuitive. Are we supposed to be fitting an armor tank on those now?
(For reference: None of my Caldari suits have armor plates or reps so far.)
- There's a one-sided element of powercreep here. All armor tankers are being buffed by a certain amount where as shield based suits are affected muss less, both in absolute numbers and in effect on gameplay due to the limited armor buffer.
Don't get me wrong, my Amarr and Gallente suits would love this, but once in a while I like to mess around in my Caldari Assault and Sentinel, too.
What was the core problem you were trying to solve? If you state that we can maybe discuss alternative measures. Helping New players that don't understand that they need to rep Helping Shield tankers use their low slots for regulators instead of always allocating one to a reactive/rep for that minimum 1hp/s Helping versatility, ferroscale usually gets dumped for a reactive, kincats, etc. Having a mandatory slot requirement to be reps is not fun I dont understand why as a Caldari player, I need to armor rep? I don't use armor mods at all. why not provide a better NPE to highlight this? Why are we using reactive/rep instead of regulators? for our tiny armor base? our armor shouldnt even be considered as part of our defense. why is armor reps mandatory on a shield tanking suit? our shield tanks must not be strong enough if this is the case. Your complaining about getting something for nothing? It's a buff to everyone except the Gal Scout.
im complaining that we are going backwards. we wanted to avoid hybrid tanking. now everyone can stack plates and extenders. it'll kill variety in dropsuit fitting
but free stuff is free stuff so ill take it |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
605
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 21:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Here's the biggest reason why we shouldn't do this: it makes absolutely no sense in terms of the already established design in dust and eve online.
Shields have native regen. Not armor.
You change this and shields go from low HP with free passive regen to simply low HP, and regen that can be interrupted vs high HP armor with free constant armor reps.
When you look at it like that, armor tanking is the more attractive choice. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
605
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 00:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:
Why is it not possible to extend armour suit shield recharge times as well as reduce per pulse values?
Forgive me if I'm misreading, but are you essentially saying to reduce recharge rate of shields on armor suits? Fundamentally I guess. I'd prefer to feel more reliant on my armour as my primary HP buffer than the shield. I suppose in a pure tanking situation, a shield tanker has no armor reps fitted and thus essentially he will never get his armor back if he loses most of it (unless acted upon by an outside force). If we lower armor suit shield regen, it would essentially mean that once an armor suit loses its shields, it will likely never get all of it back before they are killed due to extremely long recharge times. I could see that as an acceptable method as well, though I am concerned that the above mentioned 'Pure Tanking' method may cause more balancing issues than it's worth.
thats kind of my issue here is that armor tankers benefit from both their shield hp buffers as well as their primary armor buffer.
i purely shield tank. i dont get my armor back when i lose unless i can find a logi or rep hive. we should reduce shield recharge on armor suits so that they cannot always rely on their shield buffers. it should be the same as with shield tankers, the initial shield buffer is for "first encounters" and at no time after should it be fully recharged before the next encounter unless they remove themselves from battle for extended periods of time (5hp/s sounds good to me for armor tankers) |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
605
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 03:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:True Adamance wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:True Adamance wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:
Gallente Assault Shield stats:
Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s
Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds
Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds
Amarr Assault Shield stats:
Shield Recharge Rate: 20 hp/s
Shield Recharge Delay: 7 seconds
Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 10 seconds
Caldari Assault Shield Stats:
Shield Recharge Rate: 30 hp/s
Shield Recharge Delay: 5 seconds
Shield Depleted Recharge delay: 6 seconds
Rather than needing passive armour reps we should be looking at reducing the shield rep efficiency of our suits. I'm all for the Gallente to be top tier rep brawlers but just handing you passive reps equivalent to one extra advanced or prototype module is not the way to do it. If the assault needs a bonus you are starting at the answer. I'd like it if the suits had an armor repair modifier rate. Yeah that's a cool idea, a statistic that modifies the values of each repper stacked on the suit. E.G- Amarr = 1.0 Gallente = 1.15 So if a Complex Armour repair units repaired 10 Armour per second. Amarr recieved their standard values, while Gallente rep at 11.5 per repair unit they have stacked. Amarr 2x Complex Repair Units = 2*10 reps per second - stacking penalties Gallente 2xComplex Repair Units = 2* 11.5 reps per second - stacking penalties. That's just module efficacy, and I am very interested in pursuing that, but right now, focused on smaller changes. Switching to efficacy is a widespread and fine-detail change.
its also completely necessary. it must be done at some point, though we can continue procrastinating.
the suit bonuses also need to be moved to the actual individual suits, so we can free up the actual skills to give unique bonuses without the need to to create additional skills. so that we can have suit variants using the same skills but with different bonuses.
it would create more varied fits and provide a variety of options. it wouldve been easier if this had been done from the beginning |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
605
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 04:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
if this is about the NPE and giving new players more survivability, then buff those useless basic suits. givie them the native armor reps and leave the other alone |
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