DUST Search - Sticky:[Feedback] - Dropsuit Native Armor Repair

Aeon Amadi wrote:

MINA Longstrike wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Innate reps will never be as effective as modular reps and they never should be.

I see no problem with having the least armour oriented race not having much regen. Not even the Gallente have noticeable innate rep rates.

The intention was apparently to give shield oriented suits the use of all their low slots without having to slap reactive plates or armor reppers to them. The first proposal had some issues and the second proposal is arguably worse.

IMO, that -should- be one of the downfalls of shield tanking is that you have to fit a module to get any types of reps on Armor... For the longest time my Gallente Assault had a bonus to shield recharge with only 150 shields, it never persuaded me to fit shield rechargers whenever I lost that bonus.

Although I severely doubt my opinion of "Deal with it or change to armor tanking" will sway people....

Anyway, going with this current setup, my personal opinion would be that the Gallente should have higher reps but I am significantly worried about innate Logi reps as we've gone down that road previously and we had nothing but combat Logi's running around. Personally, I'd rather see the Logi's somewhere toward the bottom as far as reps if only to prevent that mentality. They have much better fitting (slots and CPU/PG) than Assaults anyway so it's not exactly asking much.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1424	Posted - 2014.10.22 03:18:00 - [1] - Quote I think that anything higher than 3 or 3.5 runs the risk of being too powerful - If we look back to the old logi bonus of +1 armor rep per level, it got to the point where level 5 logis did not fit any armor repair modules to their suit. I think suits having between 1-3 rep on them is fine, but anything higher (and in some cases even 3 is excessive) runs the risk of people going "Nah, I don't need armor reps". Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1427	Posted - 2014.10.22 04:28:00 - [2] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: A few quick points of context since I was neck deep in Logistics at the time you reference below. MINA Longstrike wrote: I think that anything higher than 3 or 3.5 runs the risk of being too powerful - If we look back to the old logi bonus of +1 armor rep per level, it got to the point where level 5 logis did not fit any armor repair modules to their suit. Some Logis at level 5 did not fit reppers, many still did. Further at the time base rep value of the armor repair mods was lower across the boards so the contextual value of 1.00 HP/s then was much higher than it is now. MINA Longstrike wrote: I think suits having between 1-3 rep on them is fine, but anything higher (and in some cases even 3 is excessive) runs the risk of people going "Nah, I don't need armor reps". In some cases - I'm looking at you Caldari (as one example) - a player saying "Nah, I don't need armor reps" is actually not a bad thing. And I say this as a support player who's potential match earnings will be cut by having more suits with self sustaining levels of armor reps on board. Cheers, Cross I'll admit to overgeneralizing there and certainly the passive reps would be a very good thing for shield tanks, but some of the values seem to be a bit high for the armor tankers. I'm just voicing a concern that if the base numbers are too high players who should have armor reps might choose to simply forgo them in favor of HP bricking because they can get by without them (at least until the squad logi comes and touches them up). I'm no expert on the numbers here though. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1431	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:36:00 - [3] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Anyway, back on topic. Pokey's spreadsheet is interesting, but I think I'm OK with the numbers still... the use of %'s sorta skews things a little as I'm not sure how big a deal that is considering the sizeable differences in raw HP numbers. I'm okay with shield oriented suits having a lower % value, the big problem that I see is with the cal scout which has such low armor HP (and low total hp when fit properly) already taking 3 minutes without any additional HP / repair. Looking at pokeys spreadsheet. Gallente for the most part seems acceptable, helps augment strengths without negating weaknesses. Minmatar also seems largely acceptable, due to their somewhat wonky slot layouts on lower slotted suits, while logi value seems high I know that a lot like to mix a reactive or std armor plate in with a shield regulator or two so they can better stand behind their attack dogs. Amarr also doesn't really have any issues, Yes the numbers show that they take a long time but that's the tradeoff for having crazy hp values - most amarr like to fit 1-2 armor repairers so it should be okay. Caldari points of concern are with sentinels, assaults and scouts. While I'm aware that most cal assaults like to toss a single reactive plate on their suits that's really only ideal at proto, with a value of 1.5 it would be a lot more incentivising to put a regulator on without feeling like you're being 'penalised' for not dual tanking your suit at bsc and adv. Cal scouts have such low armor that it shouldn't take close to 3 minutes to pull it back (assuming you survive a fight with 0 hp). I'd be more in favor of a value of .75 as that potentially allows you to use the low slot you might have spent on a reactive plate instead on a regulator or dampener, once again making you not feel 'bad' for not dual tanking your suit. Cal sentinels are in a bit of an odd place as they only 'technically' don't need a regulator (it is still a large QoL improvement for them) the problem I see is that with such high armor values and long base repair rates they're still essentially told 'you need to fit a repairer or reactive plate'. There's some issues with this suit in general (atrocious cpu, flux grenades being disproportionately powerful) but I still think that the value here is a bit too low. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1432	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:43:00 - [4] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Here's the biggest reason why we shouldn't do this: it makes absolutely no sense in terms of the already established design in dust and eve online. Shields have native regen. Not armor. You change this and shields go from low HP with free passive regen to simply low HP, and regen that can be interrupted vs high HP armor with free constant armor reps. When you look at it like that, armor tanking is the more attractive choice. So how about we remove shield recharge from any suit with an armor repairer fit to it, or lacking a shield recharger /factious Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1436	Posted - 2014.10.23 13:24:00 - [5] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Revised proposal - MM and Amarr same, sentinel less then Assault, Commando and Logi the same, and overall lower hp/s Gallente Commando3 Logi3 Assault2.5 Sentinel2 Scout1.5 Minmatar Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Amarr Commando2.5 Logi2.5 Assault2 Sentinel1.5 Scout1 Caldari Commando2 Logi2 Assault1.5 Sentinel1 Scout0.5 The numbers weren't that bad in the first place, just a few things needed to be adjusted to be slightly higher from the original proposal: cal sent, scout and assault were the only ones I had any real issue with. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1436	Posted - 2014.10.23 14:01:00 - [6] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Innate reps will never be as effective as modular reps and they never should be. I see no problem with having the least armour oriented race not having much regen. Not even the Gallente have noticeable innate rep rates. The intention was apparently to give shield oriented suits the use of all their low slots without having to slap reactive plates or armor reppers to them. The first proposal had some issues and the second proposal is arguably worse. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1438	Posted - 2014.10.23 16:24:00 - [7] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Innate reps will never be as effective as modular reps and they never should be. I see no problem with having the least armour oriented race not having much regen. Not even the Gallente have noticeable innate rep rates. The intention was apparently to give shield oriented suits the use of all their low slots without having to slap reactive plates or armor reppers to them. The first proposal had some issues and the second proposal is arguably worse. IMO, that -should- be one of the downfalls of shield tanking is that you have to fit a module to get any types of reps on Armor... For the longest time my Gallente Assault had a bonus to shield recharge with only 150 shields, it never persuaded me to fit shield rechargers whenever I lost that bonus. Although I severely doubt my opinion of "Deal with it or change to armor tanking" will sway people.... Anyway, going with this current setup, my personal opinion would be that the Gallente should have higher reps but I am significantly worried about innate Logi reps as we've gone down that road previously and we had nothing but combat Logi's running around. Personally, I'd rather see the Logi's somewhere toward the bottom as far as reps if only to prevent that mentality. They have much better fitting (slots and CPU/PG) than Assaults anyway so it's not exactly asking much. So should one of the downfalls of armor tanking be that you need to fit a shield recharger or a regulator? or that you simply don't get any shield rep if you have a repairer fit? You can't have it both ways. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1441	Posted - 2014.10.23 19:08:00 - [8] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Sure, I'd be down for it. I really don't think it's that big of a deal, honestly. I think people forget that Shields in and of themselves innately have faster regeneration and this is especially true -on- suits intended for shield tanking. You have to realize that shield tanking suits have their ups where they have their downs; sure, they don't have any base armor repair but in the same sense that the Gallente have at least some minor armor repair built in the Caldari have substantially higher shield regeneration capabilities by comparison. Further more, while Armor Users don't suffer from this - how'd you put it - 'slot tax', we also have barely anything at all we can even put in our high slots to begin with that contribute to our fighting style. Damage mods, sure, but if you take those out of the mix (as they are extraordinarily high in fitting costs) we're left with... What do you know, shield modules and precision enhancers. It ain't as one sided as you seem to put on. "if you take away the 'best' module it doesn't really mean anything!'. I'm sorry that high slots don't have a few more desireable modules and that ewar is fundamentally broken, if that wasn't the case you might see my point a bit easier. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.