That winky face is incredibly out of place.

If what you say is true, shouldn't you be using this ?

Although... there is one thing that CCP Z mentioned which might be a valid concern. Prior to the legion release a lot of posts started to crop up about how "im bored and there is nothing left to skill into" because they had their racial dropsuit of choice and a couple of weapons with maxed core skills. For people to be saying that 8-12 months into a games life might indicate a poorly designed skill tree.

So requiring a Heavy Assault Cruiser before tech II medium rails would be kind of silly I agree. What if you needed Caldari Cruiser III to use tech II rails though? If it would help guide newbies to the fact that the Moa uses medium rails?

While it might be obvious to you that you should pair rails on the Moa, it may not be obvious to others and making that connection, at a relatively insignificant cost in training time, might be worth it?

I dunno... just a thought. Playing a little devil's advocate I guess.

Making the skill sinks relatively light wouldn't be catastrophic. But locking all weapons behind the racial specialization set of the skill tree would be silly I agree. To require caldari assault dropsuit (at virtually the end of the assault role tree) before being able to use any rail rifle would be bad design imo. I would 100% fight against a change like that.

So requiring a Heavy Assault Cruiser before tech II medium rails would be kind of silly I agree. What if you needed Caldari Cruiser III to use tech II rails though? If it would help guide newbies to the fact that the Moa uses medium rails?

While it might be obvious to you that you should pair rails on the Moa, it may not be obvious to others and making that connection, at a relatively insignificant cost in training time, might be worth it?

I dunno... just a thought. Playing a little devil's advocate I guess.

Making the skill sinks relatively light wouldn't be catastrophic. But locking all weapons behind the racial specialization set of the skill tree would be silly I agree. To require caldari assault dropsuit (at virtually the end of the assault role tree) before being able to use any rail rifle would be bad design imo. I would 100% fight against a change like that.

Seeing as though they want you to go down a T II suit tree before getting a T II gun, it is like I just said.

Look, I get Z's reasoning behind it, and why you like it. But here's the thing: If at any point I'm forced to go down a tree just to get something that I want, and most of the tree has nothing to do with what I want, then Godin is not happy. My point is that if they took the time to actually explain the damn tree in the first place, then there would be no problem. Hell, simply having a class (because it's called the academy for a reason) teaching what all the trees do (ex. in the dropsuit command, you can unlock dropsuits *explains frame sizes*. Under the weaponry tree, you can unlock weapons *explains weapon sizes* etc.), then maybe people might get it?

...
I really don't know if there is a good Dust equivalent to a battle badger lol.

When the skill tree changed from chromosome to uprising we were told it was simplified so that a lot of the useless skills that you didn't want got shaved off so you could reach your goal in a more immediate fashion.

But Z's progression is the exact opposite of that, while he claims it is an attempt to be more simple.

If I wanted to be a heavy with an assault rifle who runs damps (because let's pretend its viable for whatever reason) I have to spec into three different suits of varying degrees, potentially. That's supposed to be more simple? Bull.

You don't think that's maybe, I dunno... dumb as hell?

Z has said he thinks people can reach their goal too quickly. That's nonsense as far as I'm concerned and this is just an attempt to get even more money out of people for faster skill access. As if it wasn't already bad enough.

How about an ak.0 with....

My swarms don't feel designed for combat. T_T;;

A complex skill tree doesn't introduce depth into the game though. There are other, far more substantial ways of introduce sandbox elements and giving tools for the players to make their own content.

Do you truly believe that EVE's skill system is the core to the experience you built for yourself? Do you think those pirates wouldn't have blown up your Raven if EVE had a more intuitive skill system?

Kinda see where I'm going here? Its the sandbox mechanics that make EVE, not its skill system.

Just read this today.

I-¦m not saying it was the skill system that gave me the experience i described, but the skill system was part of the foundation of it.

When i lost my Raven to pirates in low-sec, it wasn-¦t the modules i cared about, it was my shinny recently bought ship that i saved money for a long time in order to do so. One click to jump, the locking sound and several shots later, and it was gone.

Gone

....

Progression is entwined with game Design, and game design is the soul of the game. You screw one up, it will impact the rest.

While a good post on your first experiences in New Eden.. I don't see how the skill system does anything to relate to that. Do you mean you lost that Raven because you ****-fit it since you didn't understand the skill in Eve at the time? I'm failing to see how the structure of the skill system made that lost Raven more meaningful to you...

Now with BPO suit... you understand that if you put 500k isk worth of rare modules on your BPO suit and then you die... you are out 500k isk worth of modules right? Just because the suit itself is a BPO doesn't mean everything on your character is.

Also... Eve is a cool game, I'm really enjoying it myself, but it does NOT translate 1:1 into a first person shooter experience. The closest we can get is that we're all flying frigates pretty much. There is no translation of anything Cruiser+ in Eve (maybe marauder HAVs in chromosome were the closest to anything like a Cruiser imo) and I don't think there ever could/will be. In Eve its a lot easier to have very large ships with massive power differentials due to the 'navy simulator' kind of mechanics that dominate its combat. In an FPS its much more fast-paced low TTK style combat where you should expect anything you have to be relatively much more disposable than things are in Eve. We could possibly expand on the vehicle selection to get more analogues of the BC+ style ships in EVE, although I believe they would be generally very rare, much more than you would see those types of ships in EVE.

I also haven't seen any posts wanting vehicle BPOs in game. I know I certainly don't want to see BPO vehicles myself.

Killing Protosuits that didnt invest in good core skills while using Militia ones with good skills

Also... Eve is a cool game, I'm really enjoying it myself, but it does NOT translate 1:1 into a first person shooter experience. The closest we can get is that we're all flying frigates pretty much. There is no translation of anything Cruiser+ in Eve (maybe marauder HAVs in chromosome were the closest to anything like a Cruiser imo) and I don't think there ever could/will be. In Eve its a lot easier to have very large ships with massive power differentials due to the 'navy simulator' kind of mechanics that dominate its combat. In an FPS its much more fast-paced low TTK style combat where you should expect anything you have to be relatively much more disposable than things are in Eve. We could possibly expand on the vehicle selection to get more analogues of the BC+ style ships in EVE, although I believe they would be generally very rare, much more than you would see those types of ships in EVE.

I also haven't seen any posts wanting vehicle BPOs in game. I know I certainly don't want to see BPO vehicles myself.

The Skill tree system in EVE is not an obstacle to the aquisition of different ships.

The skil progression system in Legion is specifically entwined with the aquisition of equipment and suits. Besides that, the suits are also infinite.

I can-¦t talk about the progression, the gameplay, and the game design, without talking about the skill progression system in Legion, that-¦s the main point. The foundation of the game is the progression system!

It-¦s not the progression that defines the gameplay, it-¦s the game design. But when the game design is attached to the progression, then the progression becomes an issue.

I din-¦t ****** up my fitting, i had a perfectly good missioning Raven that happened to go to low-sec and got blown up. The impact was that the SHIP that i trained for during months, that i spent a couple of weeks missioning to buy, was blown up and not replaced without more weeks of missioning to buy another one.

If a suit is permanent, what-¦s the attachment to it? Zero. Specially if a Suit is so powerful, that a "Prototype Caldari Assault equiped with a Stick of Truth +1" can beat a "Just started Caldari Suit with a +50 Purple Staff of Anal Probing that i bought on the market with real money after someone sold it after spending 2 weeks gringing to have a % chance of dropping it" (Don-¦t know if that-¦s the case, but seems like a good business model unlike EVE where a good ship with poorly fitted equipment DIES to low-tech ships with good player and proper modules).

A Lvl 80 player killing 200 Lvl 1 with a single hand and the stater sword is WoW, not "New Eden".

Progression ends up defining the overall experience because it-¦s related to how your time is translated in power, and the power is measured in Suits (tied to roles, tied to progression) and equipment (tied to salvaging, hopefully tied to manufacturing from said salvage).

We can-¦t talk about Legion and it-¦s overall gameplay experience without talking about progression in it-¦s current apparent form.

eh... lol. OK, this morning is off to a strange start. Skimming through here to see what I missed over the weekend and you got my attention. Totally misread you and thought you said "killing prostitutes..."



carry on. carry on...

Stuff

Having a cost makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy. Having a market /manufacturing, makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy, how they-¦-¦ll get it, who-¦s gonna supply how they-¦ll transport, how they-¦re going to secure the transport and the storage of said items.

"Major Heist at NLO-3Z IV - "Okinawa" District"

Today Capsuleer forces were surprised with a bold move that cleared the stocks of planetary equipment worth 15 Billion ISK at the staging point system "NLO-3Z", the Headquarters of [+ülliance Name] ground forces. Invading elements managed to bypass all stellar and planetary defense systems, and descend into the planet-¦s orbit with an unknown ammount of MCC-¦s in an masterfully planned operation that took 2 hours, 500 mercenary lives, and the pride of said Alliance."

It-¦s not only about the "ISK cost", otherwise there would be Titans in every corner.

It-¦about the ISK cost + Logistics + Manufactuing + Securing the Location + Time + Material Costs = Titan (2 Months + Several Billion)

This point is important to follow the reasoning.

You can sell batches of 1000 suits for 1m (making it virtually "unlimited"), i don-¦t care, but it has to have COST be it in time - money - items - work, because there-¦s a holistic system going on with different players doing different things.

Same thing for Vehicles, in a larger scale.

The meaning it-¦s not only on the equipment itself, the meaning comes from the logistical chain, the time, and the effort invested to get something.

Having a cost makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy. Having a market /manufacturing, makes people plan how much they-¦ll buy, how they-¦-¦ll get it, who-¦s gonna supply how they-¦ll transport, how they-¦re going to secure the transport and the storage of said items.

"Major Heist at NLO-3Z IV - "Okinawa" District"

Today Capsuleer forces were surprised with a bold move that cleared the stocks of planetary equipment worth 15 Billion ISK at the staging point system "NLO-3Z", the Headquarters of [+ülliance Name] ground forces. Invading elements managed to bypass all stellar and planetary defense systems, and descend into the planet-¦s orbit with an unknown ammount of MCC-¦s in an masterfully planned operation that took 2 hours, 500 mercenary lives, and the pride of said Alliance."

It-¦s not only about the "ISK cost", otherwise there would be Titans in every corner.

It-¦about the ISK cost + Logistics + Manufactuing + Securing the Location + Time + Material Costs = Titan (2 Months + Several Billion)

This point is important to follow the reasoning.

You can sell batches of 1000 suits for 1m (making it virtually "unlimited"), i don-¦t care, but it has to have COST be it in time - money - items - work, because there-¦s a holistic system going on with different players doing different things.

Same thing for Vehicles, in a larger scale.

The meaning it-¦s not only on the equipment itself, the meaning comes from the logistical chain, the time, and the effort invested to get something.

If a dropsuit costs 250k isk in modules + 0 isk in suit or it costs 240k in modules + 10k in suit.... whats the difference?

Your example newscast would be exactly the same either way.

If you-¦re asking what-¦s the difference, you haven-¦t read that it-¦s not about ISK cost alone but the logistical chain behind it, the EFFORT of doing it.

If a person didn-¦t stockpiled enough Suit (cheap or not) and a battle happens over a district, and there-¦s no suits available neither on the district/planetary/station market hub, they should fight with militia suits and militia equip because they were stupid enought not to plan ahead.

If you consider Industry a bloat, then we-¦re talking from very different perspectives.

If we want an effortless game, forget the economy, manufacturing, logistics and market. All suits are unlimited, equip drop after we kill bosses,/salvage, we trade items between players and if i want to sell something i use an auction house.

That would be an unique MMORPGFPS on the market.

If you consider Industry a bloat, then we-¦re talking from very different perspectives.

All i can see so far is a simplified skiltree that will be very easy for both players and Drinking Birds, a grinding system that is very similar to any hack/slash game out there, an auction house and a player trade window that will be called "market", in a fast paced action fps.

NPE had several suggestions to be both player acessible and veteran fluid.
The suit thing is attached to the skillsystem
No idea what the Industry will (or won-¦t) do
Market looks like player trade window and Acution house
No hint on mechanics of PC, but it-¦s connected to the Industry (or lack of)

Want to try something new? Sure.
Different from the current system being completely broken.

Really need to see more, but so far... Progression links to everything, that-¦s why this topic is (was) so populated.

Again, CCP is the company, i-¦m a mere player, all i can do is talk about the game i-¦ve been expecting since 2009

[...]I see nothing about consumable dropsuits that adds to the game play of Legion.[...]

"I see nothing about consumable weapons that adds to the game play of Legion."

Your reasoning isn't wrong in that it does follow when viewed in isolation but you can rephrase it to include every other item with little or no modification as long as you overlook the fact that it's logical conclusion necessarily begs the question where to stop and why.

"I see nothing about consumable weapons that adds to the game play of Legion."

Your reasoning isn't wrong in that it does follow when viewed in isolation but you can rephrase it to include every other item with little or no modification as long as you overlook the fact that it's logical conclusion necessarily begs the question where to stop and why.