I'm curious... for those who are worried about Legion losing its 'EVE" feel. Did you prefer Chromosome's skill tree to Uprisings?

Oh dont get me wrong dust was a big bag of fail in many ways. But a lot of above could be tolerateed if players new what the **** was going on.

But yeh a lot of the above is was done because they treated the game like EvE i should no i was here from the start.

Also look at your list a big problem of dust is itcomplex not deep their is a difference and it started with how ccp wanted to do progresion. All of it traces back to the skill system.

Under no situation should need a video or txt to explain whats going on. Everything should be easy to follow and understand onlu getting complex near the end game, WoW was nearly flawless in this.

My big point is Dust514 tried to be EvE. Shooter fans dont want an EvE they want a persitant cod/ bf2142 so we need desgin the game around that understanding.

Fluff lore feel of new eden of course but we should not look to EvE on how to do things EvE is a space sim legion is a shooter they could not be more diffrent and i wont watch the same debats we had in closed beta repeat here.

Im also 4 banning EvE in any debate and stating you must look to other shooters as an example or make the argument stand on its own feet, saying its not new eden is a load of bull, legion is legion and the new kid is going to change the rules

Eh, a lot of that is my point. First let me be clear I don't want to sound like I'm just being a smart ass or anything lol. I'm just sharing a point of view here. Right or wrong ,eh wtf. Ya know?

That out of the way, DUST IMHO, never tried to be EVE. It was a jumble of random parts from EVE that had nothing to do with each other, let alone the concepts of EVE. much of my list isn't at all related to complexity. It was just a broken release. There are players coming from EVE that may play it no matter what just for branding's sake. Others because it's "different". I think that most though will see a jumbled mess of an interface without clear logic that links you from one thing to another conceptually, and they throw their hands up and move on. It was a free DL after all, so oh well. On to the next.

I don't want the extreme here, playing a dull spreadsheet FPS shooter full-on EVE mode. At least for me, I just don't want the EVE flavor to be so watered down and diluted that it no longer falls within the EVE Universe. Use only what you can afford to lose; skills that are universal allowing ONE character to play unique roles relative to the context of the game at hand (not single role, sub-tiered class-driven like warcraft); security space that matters for new players to integrate; a skill system that grows and evolves with the player; and a damn serious death penalty!

Hey, I still play WoW, but I play EVE to get the hell away from that too.

Again, I don't think we want an EVE clone. I'm sure some do, but I doubt that's the main argument. Search the forums, there are countless posts from capsulers clearly explaining what it is that they hope for to make a better, but still UNIQUE, FPS. I'm from Closed Beta myself, so ya.

And I don't necessarily disagree with you about needing a complex video or text block to understand; however, as a graphic designer, I totally understand how much that can be addressed by using a properly designed and thought out interface (I'm talking menu structure, navigation, hierarchy, etc.) if that were done right you probably wouldn't need anything more to understand the concept but maybe a shooting range or something to apply and test that concept.

You're also right that LEGION is not EVE, but as long as the game insists on being part of the EVE universe, there are core principles that really should be kept. Otherwise, why bother wasting the time? Just make another COD? I mean, honestly man? Why bother leveraging the EVE name at all? Just create a sister corporation and develop independently and done. I'd play that game too, but here we are. I guess my Mario without Mushrooms would better fit here =\

Idunno man. I get what you're saying, but disagree. I don't want EVE. I just want the concept to remain in tact. I also want the failure of a poorly implemented and unnecessarily bloated experience to stop being the justification of nixing EVE concepts. The two ARE different. That's like saying I'm never eating chinese food again because this Domino's pizza is the sux. Yeah, it does. So order the right thing next time ;)

As an EVE player, I could relate to the original skill tree easier than some---nothing backing that up except talk around the forums at the time. That's not to say that I found it efficient, pleasing, or technically easy to understand, just that I could relate to it without much effort. It was pretty bad though knowing its purpose and how little there was to help non-EVE players relate. I mean in design.

Transition to the later node-based graphic skill tree was awkward. At first glance I didn't want to bother with it because I already understood the original. Now though, the later is all that I use.

I do want to point out though that the core concept is the same, only the representation of that concept has changed. I think your specific question and the conversations that may branch from it could cover many subtle shifts, but at the core, I think EVE players are arguing to keep the concept within the EVE realm of thought, just have better representation of how that translates in a FSP mindset---not knocking one or the other. It FEELS (again, without much backing that up either except talk around the forums) that the concept is shifting a bit too far. Here's a Mario universe game but.. without mushrooms. Kinda. lol?

I think I may be trying to answer another post by burying it into my reply here. If I missed your point, sorry!

I was just curious. I feel that it is a somewhat analogous case though. In chromosome we had secondary skill requirements a la EVE and in Uprising it became completely linear. In terms of the 'EVE' feel, the chromosome skill tree should generally be preferred, as it was essentially EVEs skill tree adapted to ground based combat as well as they could.

They then went to completely dumb down the skill tree. Instead of using the names like in EVE, say 'Shield Management' for example, they renamed everything to its module name. So it became 'Dropsuit Shields' and 'Shield Extension', 'Shield Recharging' etc etc. It became completely linear, and not very 'eve-like' at all. I really never saw that much in terms of "linearized the skill tree ruined uprising" posts. You know?

If the Chromosome to Uprising skill rework wasn't a complete crisis and breakdown of the entire structure of the game, maybe, just maybe, the Legion skill tree won't be either?

I think you need to take a look at the skill names in EVE, as a lot of them says exactly what the skill does. Especially the drone tree. Also, unlocking things in Dust is basically the same as in EVE. skill requirements are a little different, but otherwise it's the same layout.

Yeah, I play EVE now. While the description for most things does a decent job in explaining what they do, I would not say the EVE skill tree is completely obvious.

Just some minor examples... Its not obvious that 'damage' armor compensation affects the energized adaptive nano membrane. its not necessarily difficult to find out, but the skill tree doesn't link those two together in any way, I had to find that information out externally.

Same for 'damage' shield compensation... nothing tells me that doesn't work for shield hardeners... in fact I hadn't even heard of passive shield resistance modules until I had to look up online what that skill does.

Things like... Capacitor Emission Systems... I still don't know if that works for laser weapons or not. I'm assuming it doesn't but the description says 'Energy Emission Weapons'... I have no idea what is... is it neuts? vampire mods? The ui tells me nothing so i'll have to look it up later.

'Racial' Sensor Compensation? I still don't know what that does and how its different from Signature Analysis.

Things like Shield Operation... "...including the use of shield boosters and other basic shield modules" - what is a "basic shield module" for $100 please Alex.

These things aren't impossible to figure out by any means but the game gives me nothing in terms of what these do, I must look on a forum or occasionally on battleclinic comments to find out what some of these skills actually do. At 8 weeks played (so not that long) I'm definitely still confused about what some of these core skills actually do... and if I should be prioritizing these over something else. Looking up these skills online is something I am willing to do personally, but its these kinds of things that could scare away potential players of Legion.

^ No, I think that's a fair point (zdub). Honest.

Trimming the fat isn't bad. But I do think that relationships were simply never made between skills and their use. Or at least those relationships were never made clear within the interface. Unless a merc had prior EVE knowledge of going to the prereq tabs to see what required what to gain access, that player would be lost I imagine. Personally, I just don't think it was thought out to begin with. The devs understood it, they were programing it. But understanding of a thing doesn't inherently mean one can teach it. I went with the lesser of two evils and I'm fine with it.

Like I noted in a post a few pages back, we can debate day and night over this but until we all can see an actual roadmap and framework, we're all just speculating.

Still though, good point.

Give the player tools and they-¦ll do amazing things. Minecraft being a perfect example.

If the purpose of the game is to dumb down a little bit to appeal the masses, they-¦ll neither have the masses nor the challenge.

Yeah, I play EVE now. While the description for most things does a decent job in explaining what they do, I would not say the EVE skill tree is completely obvious.

Just some minor examples... Its not obvious that 'damage' armor compensation affects the energized adaptive nano membrane. its not necessarily difficult to find out, but the skill tree doesn't link those two together in any way, I had to find that information out externally.

Same for 'damage' shield compensation... nothing tells me that doesn't work for shield hardeners... in fact I hadn't even heard of passive shield resistance modules until I had to look up online what that skill does.

Things like... Capacitor Emission Systems... I still don't know if that works for laser weapons or not. I'm assuming it doesn't but the description says 'Energy Emission Weapons'... I have no idea what is... is it neuts? vampire mods? The ui tells me nothing so i'll have to look it up later.

'Racial' Sensor Compensation? I still don't know what that does and how its different from Signature Analysis.

Things like Shield Operation... "...including the use of shield boosters and other basic shield modules" - what is a "basic shield module" for $100 please Alex.

These things aren't impossible to figure out by any means but the game gives me nothing in terms of what these do, I must look on a forum or occasionally on battleclinic comments to find out what some of these skills actually do. At 8 weeks played (so not that long) I'm definitely still confused about what some of these core skills actually do... and if I should be prioritizing these over something else. Looking up these skills online is something I am willing to do personally, but its these kinds of things that could scare away potential players of Legion.

A complex skill tree doesn't introduce depth into the game though. There are other, far more substantial ways of introduce sandbox elements and giving tools for the players to make their own content.

Do you truly believe that EVE's skill system is the core to the experience you built for yourself? Do you think those pirates wouldn't have blown up your Raven if EVE had a more intuitive skill system?

Kinda see where I'm going here? Its the sandbox mechanics that make EVE, not its skill system.

It's the openness of the skill system that makes it easier to do the sandbox things though.

And this is entwined with the skill progression. The way things look like in Z progression, i don-¦t think i-¦ll be able to do crazy things like this.

And to be stuck in a role where skill bonus is not a differential, TF2 is a lot of fun.

Having some skill sinks isn't a crisis either though. Eve has plenty of skills sinks as well.

To say the assault rail rifle requires an assault dropsuit isn't really that much different than Mining Barges requiring Industry 5 and Astrogeology 3 on top of Mining Frigate 3 is it?

I really don't know if there is a good Dust equivalent to a battle badger lol.

But they all have bonus for somethng in the game.

Industry: Allows basic operation of factories. 4% reduction in manufacturing time per skill level.
Astrogeology Skill at analyzing the content of celestial objects with the intent of mining them. 5% bonus to mining turret yield per skill level.
Mining Barge Skill at operating ORE Mining Barges. Can not be trained on Trial Accounts. (Buth when you go to the ships it enables, they all ahve bonus depending on the skill level of the Minnin Barge skill [Covetor: Able to equip Strip Miner and Ice Harvester turrets. 3% better yield for Strip Miners per level])

Unlike the stupid 1-3-5 some no bonus skills of Dust

Yeah, the lack of passive bonuses on skills in Dust really hurts the game.

But Industry doesn't help the Mining Barge at all.. right?

So like... having to go

Assault Dropsuit into Assault Rail Rifle to then put that Assault Rail Rifle on your Logistics suit.

2/3 of those skills will directly affect your current suit you are wearing - Logi suit with an ARR while one does not.

That Mining Barge needs:
Industry 5
Astrogeology 3
Mining Frigate 3
Mining Barge 1

Of the above, only two of those four skills (Astrogeo and Min Barge) actually affect the ship you are currently running (Mining Barge with Strip Miners).

So functionally... its not really all that different. Some skills affect what you are currently running and some do not. It wouldn't any different in Z's skill system either. Although he has already said that he is making sure EVERY single node does something and has sorta/unofficially confirmed passive bonus nodes as well.

but... don't get me wrong. I could easily make a 5 level skill tree work, I am very familiar after 1 year in Dust and 8 weeks in EVE with the 5 level system. These changes aren't for people like me though, they are for people like my 18 year old stepbrother who used to play COD religiously and was confused and generally became disinterested in Dust after about 45 minutes. He's a solid FPS player and I wish I could have played more Dust with him when it was in its prime, he just couldn't/didn't want to figure out the skill tree.

Wait wait.

It-¦s not just an SP sink, there-¦s a progression down the road.

You first use Frigates
Then you can fly a Minning Barge
Then you can fly an Exhumer (T2)

Yes, the frigate bonus doesn-¦t apply directly to the Exhumer, but in order to use an Exhumer, you first used a frigate. It-¦s not a Sink, it-¦s a progression. (Like Frigate - Cruiser - Battleship, i don-¦t just jump in a BS)

The role system seems to "lock" certain skills down a path and you have to travel many many paths to unlock items that would be faster if you did it manually. (Like using Laser with Gallente suits instead of hybrid weapons)

The link i posted where a "role" would follow an "automated progression of skill" managed by the game (and hidden from the player), we get the "Roles" for new people, and we still have the skills for advanced players.

Don-¦t you think it-¦s a good compromise?

I won't disagree with that. An overly restrictive skill tree will push more people away than it will bring in. As Z releases information that will be the primary focus of my feedback I think. It needs to be accessible in more ways than one... intuitively obvious (okay good for NPE) without massive skill sinks (good for post NPE).

But that is completely possible with what he is proposing (the role based system). It appears that this role based system is borrowing heavily from Valkyrie as well as they just recently moved from a class to a role based system.

Having some skill sinks isn't a crisis either though. Eve has plenty of skills sinks as well.

To say the assault rail rifle requires an assault dropsuit isn't really that much different than Mining Barges requiring Industry 5 and Astrogeology 3 on top of Mining Frigate 3 is it?

See, here's the thing with that: it's not the same thing. It would rather be like requiring you to get a Eagle or a Deimos to get T II medium rails, but you can still use it on any ship that can fit them.

But that is completely possible with what he is proposing (the role based system). It appears that this role based system is borrowing heavily from Valkyrie as well as they just recently moved from a class to a role based system..

Actually, it was the other way round. Valkyrie are copying Legion's system. And that isn't the first or last thing that the other two New Eden games are borrowing from Legion....