That's a good question and i answer it's both. The SP system is clearly a RPG mechanic. Respecs make this mechanic void. Unless we are fine with effectively removing this mechanic altogether respecs are out of question in my opinion.

The fundamental difference in both arguments comes down to PC in its essence (organized battles). You need to be specialized and effective to make a difference in a corp battle. This is why people want respecs, so they can rework their SP to remain effective after their specialization has been nerfed. Everyone who is against just RPs in pub matches.

Your corp may have participated in the early days of PC but they clearly got run out by people with more skill and better planning of their SP paths., They may participate now simply because large corporations like EoN allow you to. But not having a solid specialization means you aren't competitive in PC.

This may not matter in another 6-8 months once a lot of people are pushing 30 million SP... but it matters right now.. and a lot of people are unhappy they don't really have a place in PC (or those kinds of matches in general).

god this game is just so broke..

That's a good question and i answer it's both. The SP system is clearly a RPG mechanic. Respecs make this mechanic void. Unless we are fine with effectively removing this mechanic altogether respecs are out of question in my opinion.

Yes, some people feel that, and I'm not ignoring it. I'm acknowledging that some players don't want respecs because they want players to be punished for how they choose to play the game.

na... we left on our own. didnt like the the drama. the last corp i was in was the same... didnt like the drama of PC...

On the other hand, the SP system is really hurting the idea of competitive game play when people are suddenly distinctly less effective after skill system changes.

The SP system is fundamentally designed such that you cannot ever max out the skill tree. By the time you could even get all of the current content there would be twice as much added in already.

So you have to make meaningful choices on what and where your SP should go... so when they nerf down a certain class.. that SP is essentially wasted. Some people may think its okay, and that others should 'adapt or die', but the fundamental issue at hand comes down to the fact that wasted SP = wasted time and for some, wasted money.

Is that the culture we want to encourage from CCP and this game? That this game is a waste of time and money?

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You are picking out the weakest argument there is, spice it up with some nice hyperbole and keep smashing as if this is all that the SP system is supposed to do and does.

Have a look here, here, here, here, here and here for reasons that are largely independent from the whole FOTM rambling that is going on here. It gets tiring when you have to repeat yourself countless times so i have picked a few good pieces to refer to.

That is all true and i feel you in that regard. I'm probably going to dump 1.5m sp in core skills tomorrow just to maintain the current functionality of my cal logi.

And i don't think it's ok to overnerf stuff, i assume no one does. But what we are looking at is a balancing issue first and foremost.
[tbc in 10m, match started. ]

We've already discussed all of that. None of it matters, as that content won't be out before initial balance passes are done and the respec options being proposed (released with balance patches) will be done anyways.

If you think a secondary market is out before Q2 2014, you're delusional.

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You are picking out the weakest argument there is, spice it up with some nice hyperbole and keep smashing as if this is all that the SP system is supposed to do and does.

Have a look here, here, here, here, here and here for reasons that are largely independent from the whole FOTM rambling that is going on here. It gets tiring when you have to repeat yourself countless times so i have picked a few good pieces to refer to.

Yeah a lot of corps that got run out of PC say that.

"She didn't dump me... I broke up with her!"

(just kidding there)

Anyways... the fact remains... these kinds of changes can hurt PC players fairly significantly. And will only encourage the burn out we're already seeing. Is it worth alienating people who want to play competitively just because some pub match role-players are inconvenienced?

It matters because we all know too well that CCP won't get away with a "temporary respec phase" if you will. As soon as CCP is admitting that balance changes warrant a respec, this inevitably is the new default position.

It also seems like every other patch will have some content to it - 1.2 had, 1.4 will most likely have. So new content will not wait for several months, even when basic balance is not complete. They have to release this stuff because every addition can possibly change the combat dynamics and throw all balance back into the bin (cloack, everyone needs a sensor booster in PC, readjust all cpu to allow for that.)

Did you ever think that the comment wasn't made in reference to you?

EDIT: or arguments that you put forth.

Why did you constantly put more skill levels into an item you hate using?
Then why are you hanging out with a corp that doesn't appreciate what you bring to the table?
Then why are you wasting your energy asking for a respec instead of asking for balance to include missing items?

That's a good question and i answer it's both. The SP system is clearly a RPG mechanic. Respecs make this mechanic void. Unless we are fine with effectively removing this mechanic altogether respecs are out of question in my opinion.

They could do it if they wanted to... some people might get mad when its over but that's fine.

but we are not at a point where CCP can say 'classes in this game are pretty close to where we want them to be'... not at all... most of it comes down to the fact that uprising was never beta tested.

So now we're all in limbo with classes changing every patch. How can you make meaningful choices with your SP when literally every class will have changed within the next few months?

Are people supposed to just not play and wait until CCP can get around to figuring their **** out?

Disagree on respecs voiding the rpg element. Warcraft is a rpg and has the ability to respec. The difference with war raft is you can cap out in a reasonable amount of time. Ie a limited amount of sp where as dust has a seemingly unlimited amount.

Honestly I do t tho I this is a game mechanic arguement as much as a business model one. Boosters are dusts form of a subscription. Respecs would eliminate the need for boosters after someone hits about 15mil sp. sadly there is just far more content in other games to keep one interested and in this game we get an endless grind.

Heaven forbid we could respec, change play styles completely and extend the fun of this game. Respecs are a form of content. It allows a heavy to play a proto scout when they are bored with the fatty.

I understand how you feel. I also know that if CCP fails to offer a optional respec after all suits, weapons, and vehicles are released there will be a lot of unhappy players. Balance is needed, but lets be patient and wait for them to fix the current problems and release of all items. I say 6 months from now if not half of these items are not fixed, there may not be enough people left. You can only take so much before you throw your hands up. For example American cars, the auto industry thought they were invincible and kept making crap. Americans had enough of it and moved to Japanese built cars.

Should make a list of who is for respecs and who is not to show ccp what they should do...I'm for respecs now I wasnt a few days ago but zdubs and xmaple talke some since into me..very good points

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Vethosis has a thread that lists pro posters and is regularly updated. And it's still CCPs game, not ours. I don't see why a poll, let alone one that only includes forum posters, should have any bearing on their busines and product development decisions.

Maple, bro, I love you but respecs are bad mojo in a persistent game. The impacts on the econ alone are very negative and the net result of unlimited respec is a harshly truncated lifespan for the game.

Now that being said there are some concerns which do need to be addressed, I believe this idea, is a good start on that road. Add in more frequent bonus SP events and some wise advanced planning (like focusing on passive skills first and avoiding all FotM builds) and you've got a pretty good solution which would at least heavily minimize the drawbacks of being invested into gear that has been nerfed.

Cheers,
Cross

ps ~ A few highlights regarding the problems with respecs

At this point maple... I think its best to just live with the state of the game until 1.5.

At which point we will probably get another respec, and if we're lucky the game will be halfway to balanced by then.

Its true 1.5 probably isn't due until late October though. So I suggest finding a new game until then. I'm currently working through my steam library right now.

Should have a solid month you can enjoy the game before PS4 releases.

So what I'm really saying.. is that anyone looking for a competitive fps should probably just quit now.