So if we had a perfectly balanced game and unlimited respecs... There would still be FOTM chasing?

Point still stands no? Yes reality is we will never have perfect balancing, but get close enough and 'fotm chasing' will be indistinguishable from play style preference.

Don't be dismissive out of hand. There is a plenty of room between DUSTs current level of balance and fictional perfect, and you know it.

Think of League of Legends as an example. You essentially "respec" every game by picking a new character. Some champions go through phases of popularity or FOTM. But that doesn't ruin the game, because balance is so tight that other champions are viable if not always popular. Now imagine you had to pick our one champion, could never use any others, and Riot nerfed your one guy. Sounds like super duper fun right?

Respecs don't do anything except allow people to use different skills they otherwise already earned the points for. All whey did wrong was not correctly read CCPs mind months in advance.

Respecs have a few unique advantages though.

1. They show the metrics for FOTM much clearer to CCP, getting us closer to balance faster.
2. They allow people to spec into FOTM counters until FOTM can get fixed.
3. They don't alienate players who've been nerfed into oblivion by a 'balance patch' like tankers and scouts and heavies.
4. They can clearly see which suits are underutilized since people don't have to use them anymore, instead... People are just stuck with ****** suits and left to complain endlessly on the forum until they give up and quit the game.

So what should someone in exmaple's position do? Just quit the game?

Well. Supporting a position that screws somebody over is not what makes this game better. You just told me to stop playing because there is no help comming my way or for the same people cought in my position. You should be supporting a position that makes ppl want to play, fixing the promblems so people do not get screwed over. Respecs is the answer, telling ppl that they are screwed and should go take a brake, stop playing, is not how you keep your players

Whatever harmful effects respecs might have on the player market that has no ETA and we know nothing about, cannot be used as a valid argument against respecs in the present. Let's look at CCP's history of promises vs fulfillment in regards to Dust, frankly we don't even know that it will be added at this point.

I hope our new EP can grasp that while this game takes place in the EVE universe, it is not EVE, and it plays VASTLY different. While I don't necessarily support full blown respecs, a gradual skill reallocation system would certainly be desirable. As it is, you're expected to understand exactly how your playstyle will be, long before you get the chance to play it, or test the equipment that it requires.

You must invest blindly or through spreadsheets, ultimately theory crafting until you are rewarded with being stuck with the results, like or not.

Respecs has solved the balancing promblems before and it is obvious it will fix them again.

Yes, this is a temporary fix but everything in dust seems to be temporary with how balance works in this game. There wont be a game if people dont play, and being unfair is what is pulling people away from dust.

Untill this game has a balance, when things are set in stone and are constant, our skill points should not be constant, it leads to rage, derp, QQ, and no desire to play dust at all. In fact, it leads to ppl telling those afflicted that they should stop playing because their well, simply, screwed. We need an answer, ans the only answer within the next 6 months or even a year is respecs

Opus,

I think you're too optimistic. Given the last 6 months ive played this game, and how little has gone right since the beginning of chromosome. I cannot imagine this game with be balanced before February next year.

no, that is not an acceptable solution and if thats the only way to cope with DUSTs promblems then this game is done, the competition will sweep this hunk of junk through. Youl be on a new game that actually deals with their promblems and communicates positively with their players instead of playing a game were "your screwed and should stop playing".

Btw, i called you out a post or 2 above. Comment on it

If you dont full spec into a class than you cant do anything well, thats as basic as it gets on an SP system. in fact, CCP encourages ppl to invest all their skill points into one class and become very efficent at it, there are videos with devs encouraging this from closed beta. You can not contribute to a team and make a difference without a full spec, nor will you be included in PC without a mono spec. Besides, we should not have to compensate with developers issuies, we should play the game like its meant to be played and feel secure in doing so. Do not post your incompetence on my threads

Ok. Let's use a vanilla AR magazine size decrease as an example. What if CCP decided decrease the mag size to 40. This would alter how a person needed to approach fire fights, and even change the playstyle required for max effectiveness because running your mag dry and reloading at the wrong time could get your killed. That's what I mean by the basic functions could change.

You're missing the point. Dust is marketed as a game which encourages players break outside of the mold or you know think outside of the box. You stance is that nothing is underpowered only misused. I'm telling how CCP, by their own advert, present Dust to players in a manner which conflicts and contradicts with your stance.

And, I couldn't care less about your "supa-secret tech".

I assuming that you talking about the Caldari Logistics...it haven't been nerf, its been redesign to do their specific role, if you want to Assault, use the Assault suit... Proper logibros will still use it, and enjoy it very much.

1-month-plan $ 14.95 / $ 14.95
3-month-plan $ 12.95 / $ 38.85
6-month-plan $ 11.95 / $ 71.70
12-month-plan $10.95 / $ 131.40

That's EVE's sub costs in USD as I found it here. You and the many people you know are all willing to spend something similar each month on Dust?

F2P doesn't work on a small, slowing growing playerbase because players don't have to pay. They need larger, steadily growing playbases because the more players, the more potential for players who are going to spend cash. You ever wonder why Dust works so much better with squads? It's not a ground breaking element of game design. It's a marketing strategy. F2P always offer better gameplay with friends by design to encourage players to enlist others to play.

Nevertheless, 10% of a larger number is more. The smaller the base, the smaller that 10% is, and the more money that 10% must pay in for CCP to turn a profit. It's easier to motivate 10% of 1,000 to spend $1 a month, then it is to get 10% of 100 to spend $10.

That is the beauty of the F2P model ... lets say you have 50,000 players, about 50% of that people eventually is going to spend $5 or more.. if you can keep new people interested in the game for long periods, then that percentage goes up to 65%...if the regular players are happy ( about 15% ) the are likely to spend $15--ú20 a month "minimum".

Targeted player base doesn't work in F2P games, you need a more "general" approach.

And how you will keep you "selective" players happy ? You need fresh players and a big player base to keep them happy.
look at what is happening to MAG ... they tried to be "selective" and is proven to be a fail marketing strategy.

Games like LOTRO where forced by the regular player base to change to F2P, because the Fanboys where getting bore with empty servers, and playing with the same people all the time.

[snip against pyramid quoting]

You do understand that the end result of what you're talking about is handful of players pouring thousands of dollars a month into Dust, right? The likelihood of a demographic that is going to be willing to do that is slim to none.

Eve Online has some 500K Subscribers. CCP gathers more money from subscriptions fees then they do from the small percentage of players who pour thousands into the game.

Look at the choices CCP made with Dust. They went FPS, arguably the most popular gaming genre. They choose console, a larger, more accessable gaming platform than PC, and one with less of a history of players spending thousands on a single title. They did it as an F2P, a more widely accepted model over subscription. You really think those choices point to CCP's ultimate intention being a targeted, playerbase who is willing to spend thousands a month on Dust?

Only Star Wars have been available to be selective with a player base.. E.G "Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic" and "Battlefront" ...i'm sorry but i don't think EvE is anywhere near that magnitude and scope.

- Star Wars: proximately 93,000,000 worldwide fans.

- EvE: 500,000 subscribers.

Right... so that prove my point..? If something as big as Star Wars have problems being selective... what makes you think that EvE is going to be fine ?

I'm sure you understand that all of the present cash items become less attractive to purchase the longer a merc plays Dust. Even boosters lose appeal once a player has filled out their roles and that of their alts. This why Dust needs to cast a wider net for new players, they don't have the back of subscription fees that Eve does.

I've questioned a lack of those items as well. Best I can think of is for lore reasons they don't want players running around in hot pink tanks for example. Character and home customizations are normally stables of F2P games, so it seems odd they are absent in Dust.

lly I don't quite understand why Dust didn't go either all 3rd person, or a swappable view as found in Bethesda titles to allow players to see their clones even in the field of battle and milk the customizations angle. Removable helmets and character face customization would have created further opportunity for cash items.

I'm not so sure the demand would be low for RPG'ers. From that point of view immersion is based on being able to govern over as many aspects of the character as possible. The more players can mold a character the more likely they are to form a greater attactment to that character as well.

Gears of War does well competitively even being 3rd person. Players can also look through walls and other objects in Dust by terrian glitching in certain areas.

Honestly the way CCP is going with Dust and how much things are being nerfed so hard......making some people completely worthless (IE current heavies or commando suits).

Basically with the FPS genre and what CCP has been doing with all their changes.......it would probably be best if CCP just scheduled a monthly respec option. First week of every month you have the option to respec you char.....at the cost of 2% of your total SP.......this is automatically deducted from your SP total.

This would force there to be a "cost" for the respec while still allowing people to respec and change things that they find done work for them (or gets completely changed by CCP).

In the end I really dont care but offering respecs would increase the length of time that people are willing to play this game if they can try out multiple things and find the play style they prefer.

Just people drinking some awesome koolaid apparently.

Notice how all of the people arguing against respecs are non factors in npc corps or corps that could never compete in PC?

I've been noticing that trend, and it seems to be very much the same "competitive vs causal" BS that most games and hobbies suffer from. "Causals" seems to hate "Competitors" because they don't understand their outlook, meanwhile many competitors ultimately desire a healthly mix of both players because they know Competitors often start as Causals.

It's the people who want tears and suffering from Cal-logis and Flaylock users. Some feel they should be punished for using the tools the developers gave them. It makes no sense to me.

The fundamental argument.

Is this an FPS or an RPG?

Yes, some people feel that, and I'm not ignoring it. I'm acknowledging that some players don't want respecs because they want players to be punished for how they choose to play the game.

On the other hand, the SP system is really hurting the idea of competitive game play when people are suddenly distinctly less effective after skill system changes.

The SP system is fundamentally designed such that you cannot ever max out the skill tree. By the time you could even get all of the current content there would be twice as much added in already.

So you have to make meaningful choices on what and where your SP should go... so when they nerf down a certain class.. that SP is essentially wasted. Some people may think its okay, and that others should 'adapt or die', but the fundamental issue at hand comes down to the fact that wasted SP = wasted time and for some, wasted money.

Is that the culture we want to encourage from CCP and this game? That this game is a waste of time and money?

We've already discussed all of that. None of it matters, as that content won't be out before initial balance passes are done and the respec options being proposed (released with balance patches) will be done anyways.

If you think a secondary market is out before Q2 2014, you're delusional.

Did you ever think that the comment wasn't made in reference to you?

EDIT: or arguments that you put forth.

They could do it if they wanted to... some people might get mad when its over but that's fine.

but we are not at a point where CCP can say 'classes in this game are pretty close to where we want them to be'... not at all... most of it comes down to the fact that uprising was never beta tested.

So now we're all in limbo with classes changing every patch. How can you make meaningful choices with your SP when literally every class will have changed within the next few months?

Are people supposed to just not play and wait until CCP can get around to figuring their **** out?

Disagree on respecs voiding the rpg element. Warcraft is a rpg and has the ability to respec. The difference with war raft is you can cap out in a reasonable amount of time. Ie a limited amount of sp where as dust has a seemingly unlimited amount.

Honestly I do t tho I this is a game mechanic arguement as much as a business model one. Boosters are dusts form of a subscription. Respecs would eliminate the need for boosters after someone hits about 15mil sp. sadly there is just far more content in other games to keep one interested and in this game we get an endless grind.

Heaven forbid we could respec, change play styles completely and extend the fun of this game. Respecs are a form of content. It allows a heavy to play a proto scout when they are bored with the fatty.

Should make a list of who is for respecs and who is not to show ccp what they should do...I'm for respecs now I wasnt a few days ago but zdubs and xmaple talke some since into me..very good points

I'm just going to assume all of you guys that are opposed to a respec , never asked for one when uprising released, otherwise all of your rants of how respecs are bad are meaningless... So go ahead, lie and say you have never had a respec or asked for one..