Do we know if they are changing the current speed penalty bug where the ferroscale plates negate movement speed penalties?

If they fix that to work as intended what do you guys project will be the NET result of movement speed? I suppose we'll feel a slight buff in actual terms but nothing ground breaking.

Thoughts?

The ferroscale bug or whatever it is, is a good thing so I hope they never fix it.

Don't gang up on me I did that already on my Dual tanking post, but I will provide some links to fitting tools with comparisons of every suit whilst pure shield tanking, pure armor tanking, and pure dual tanking.

This is a modified version of the 3.3.1 fitting tool to include the new armor plate values. Going to use the Gallente and Caldari Assault suits only because the Amarr is meant to dual tank, only the Minmatar logistics has enough slots to dual tank, and the Gallente and Caldari logistics suits do not have an even slot distribution.

@ Cross Atu, I see what you mean now about costs and what they sacrifice etc etc, I seemed to have gotten tunnel vision when I was looking at a dual tanked suit vs a purely tanked suit that I didn't realize the costs of running dual tanked. Although a dual tanked Caldari is far better than a dual tanked Gallente, but that is mostly because of the bonus to shield recharge and no passive armor repairs.

Caldari Assault dual tanked

CPU- 344/394
PG- 72/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 392
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.72
Sprint- 6.94
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 945 | ISK: 91,800 | AUR: 0

Gallente Assault dual tanked

CPU- 267/394
PG- 62/79
Shield- 368
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 993 | ISK: 83,355 | AUR: 0

Caldari Assault shield tanked

CPU- 261/394
PG- 55/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 150
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 5
Sprint- 7.35
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 703 | ISK: 80,385 | AUR: 0

Gallente Assault armor tanked

CPU- 105/394
PG- 29/79
Shield- 150
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 775 | ISK: 70,530 | AUR: 0

BL4CKST4R according to your numbers here and the fact that a militia AR does 467 dps with no mods, without proficiency and without head-shots. 110% to shield and 95% efficacy to armor. because with the bonus 1.1x every shot is actually worth 37.4 hp, we can deduce the following regarding these suits tank ability:

*note: this assumes that you are standing still and that the assailant is not missing any shots. milita Ar has 48 rounds in the clip.


CPU- 344/394
PG- 72/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 392
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.72
Sprint- 6.94
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 945 | ISK: 91,800 | AUR: 0

553/[37.4*1.1] = 12.50 (approx 13 shots) shots to remove
553/[467*1.1] = 1.07 seconds to remove

392/[37.4*.95] = 11.03 (round up) shots to deplete armor
392/[467 *.95] = 0.88 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots required to kill = 24 rounds.
Total time to kill = 1.95 or approximately 2 seconds.

this opponent needs 24 rounds and 2 seconds of direct fire not missing a shot to take out this suit. with good timing and movement variations, including but not limited to using cover this suits survivability is extremely high.




CPU- 267/394
PG- 62/79
Shield- 368
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 993 | ISK: 83,355 | AUR: 0

368/[37.4*1.1] = 8.94 (round up) shots to remove
368/[467*1.1] = .716 seconds to remove

625/[37.4*.95] = 17.59 (round up) shots to deplete armor
625/[467 *.95] = 1.4 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots required to kill = 27 rounds.
Total time to kill = 2.11 or approximately 2 seconds.

the difference between this one and prior is that it requires 3 more shots to kill under the aforementioed conditions. but this is negligible don't count on those 3 shots making that big a difference.

CPU- 261/394
PG- 55/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 150
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 5
Sprint- 7.35
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 703 | ISK: 80,385 | AUR: 0

]553/[37.4*1.1] = 12.50 (approx 13 shots) shots to remove
553/[467*1.1] = 1.07 seconds to remove

150/[37.4*.95] = 4.22 (round up) shots to deplete armor
150/[467 *.95] = .338 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots required to kill = 17 rounds.
Total time to kill = 1.4




CPU- 105/394
PG- 29/79
Shield- 150
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 775 | ISK: 70,530 | AUR: 0

150/[37.4*1.1] = 3.64 (round up) shots to remove
150/[467*1.1] = .291 seconds to remove

625/[37.4*.95] = 17.59 (round up) shots to deplete armor
625/[467 *.95] = 1.4 seconds to deplete armor

Total shots to kill = 21
total time to kill = 1.7

as you can see your movement speed is proportionally decreased by the slight increase in durability you get. compared to shield tanking, you lose .36 meters per second in movement speed, to gain the ability to tank 3 more shots, or consequently survive. 2seconds longer on average.

of course these numbers only represent your ability to survive direct fire from a single milita AR without damage mods, headshots, or proficiency on the bonus 10% buff given all weapons after the first week of uprising was factored in.

these results would compare diferenctly if i were to use a HMG or scrambelr as a constant. however, as AR fire is the most common arms fire you will encounter this is a good measure of your suits durability.

[quote=D legendary hero]

[to avoid distorting the page i have removed the numbers]

Adding a passive armor repair of 7-9 would definately increase the survivability of the Gallente suits by making armor repairers optional, the Caldari suits have very high survivability even with the 110% damage modifier.

my point exactly. the enemy would need to put on average for these suits (min 17, max 27) 22 shots into your suit s in order to cause significant damage or to kill your suit.

the average life span of these suits under direct sustained fire is 2.2 seconds, the average life span of a heavy is 2.7 seconds. so in short were the suit designs you suggested ever implemented your caldari OR galente set up would be able to tank as hard as a heavy.


The important thing to note is that this is assuming that you are standing still, not fighting back and the enemy is not missing a single shot within their effective range.


now factor in the fact that your suits:
1. have between 4.7 and 5.2 movement speed.
2. have great armor and shield recharge/repair rates
3. can hold a GEK or duvolle AR
4. can be alterted to carry all grenade types and some equipment.



Now, your survivability has increased exponentially. because you can recover from battle at a high speed, can endure punishment, can dishout high damage, and can replenish your ammo as need be, inaddition to holding AV nades or flux, etc. these alone increase your life span several fold.

Now factor in that your movement speeds are still 4.6-5.2 m/s and that as aforementioned your opponent needs to hit you consistently with anywhere between 22-27 bullets from an AR to kill you.

If you are moving around and dodging, even if your opponent hits you with 10 shots, out of 60 (due to missing and spray and pray, for lower skilled players that number is much lower) your shields will start recovering before he finishes reloading.

I dare say you can take on 4 people at the same time and consistently in CQC just by being mobile and spraying a GEK because your tank is so effective! but, this is not OP because it is by design you need max level skills to be able to tank like this, and it cost you 100k ISK.

at longer ranges (preferably mid-range) you become a GOD due to damage fall off your shields and armor will take almost no damage from all save a sniper or forgun gun

I think what the Heavy suit needs first and foremost, along with all other suits, is a passive armor repair that is dependable by itself but not as high as shield repair, for the Amarr suits only they need a % efficacy for armor plates. The speed might not be as important when 1.4 hits and tracking speeds are no longer dropsuit dependant and hit detection fixes which the HMG suffers from. But nevertheless the first sentence is extremely essential in balancing armor and shields.

I think what the Heavy suit needs first and foremost, along with all other suits, is a passive armor repair that is dependable by itself but not as high as shield repair.

this could be advantageous. it will also, cause players to tank easier because they know they won't NEED reps per say. nonetheless, there should be a limiting factor or a limit to this self repair efficacy.

i.e limits
Armor reps lower limit should be 1.
armor reps upper limit should be 20 per second max. (after so many armor repair mods are put on if this limit is reached they have zero effect)


OR

i.e limiting factor
initial armor rep (inherent rate) is 1 (for example)
any skill that increases this rate is not effected by the limiting factor.
however, every armor repair mod after the 1st that is added, is reduced by a specific percentage.


whichever of these two allows the highest possible armor repair per second that is lower than 25 hp/s

Don't gang up on me I did that already on my Dual tanking post, but I will provide some links to fitting tools with comparisons of every suit whilst pure shield tanking, pure armor tanking, and pure dual tanking.

This is a modified version of the 3.3.1 fitting tool to include the new armor plate values. Going to use the Gallente and Caldari Assault suits only because the Amarr is meant to dual tank, only the Minmatar logistics has enough slots to dual tank, and the Gallente and Caldari logistics suits do not have an even slot distribution.

@ Cross Atu, I see what you mean now about costs and what they sacrifice etc etc, I seemed to have gotten tunnel vision when I was looking at a dual tanked suit vs a purely tanked suit that I didn't realize the costs of running dual tanked. Although a dual tanked Caldari is far better than a dual tanked Gallente, but that is mostly because of the bonus to shield recharge and no passive armor repairs.

Caldari Assault dual tanked

CPU- 344/394
PG- 72/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 392
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.72
Sprint- 6.94
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 945 | ISK: 91,800 | AUR: 0

Gallente Assault dual tanked

CPU- 267/394
PG- 62/79
Shield- 368
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 993 | ISK: 83,355 | AUR: 0

Caldari Assault shield tanked

CPU- 261/394
PG- 55/79
Shield- 553
Armor- 150
Shield Recharge Rate- 31.25
Shield Delay- 5
Shield Depleted Delay- 8
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 5
Sprint- 7.35
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 703 | ISK: 80,385 | AUR: 0

Gallente Assault armor tanked

CPU- 105/394
PG- 29/79
Shield- 150
Armor- 625
Shield Recharge Rate- 25
Shield Delay- 7
Shield Depleted Delay- 10
Armor Repair Rate- 6.25
Movement- 4.64
Sprint- 6.82
Duration- 15
Stamina- 157.5
Stamina Recovery- 15.75
Scan Profile- 45
Scan Precision- 49.5
Scan Radius- 15
Melee- 110

EHP: 775 | ISK: 70,530 | AUR: 0

If you are moving around and dodging, even if your opponent hits you with 10 shots, out of 60 (due to missing and spray and pray, for lower skilled players that number is much lower) your shields will start recovering before he finishes reloading.

I dare say you can take on 4 people at the same time and consistently in CQC just by being mobile and spraying a GEK because your tank is so effective! but, this is not OP because it is by design you need max level skills to be able to tank like this, and it cost you 100k ISK.

at longer ranges (preferably mid-range) you become a GOD due to damage fall off your shields and armor will take almost no damage from all save a sniper or forgun gun

Well any suit repairing at 25 HP/s will die instantly. Lets say the Gallente Logistics got 11 armor repair and the Logistics role bonus did not exist, then this suit adds in x5 complex armor repairers that would be a total armor repair of 36 HP/s shields at 326 and armor at 216, but thats not all this is a Logistics suit and even with its massive CPU/PG with this sort of fitting it has 387CPU/88PG meaning that the CPU/PG fittings apply this limiting factor, thus the highest most players would go for is around 15-20 that's one or two complex armor repairers max.

This is a bug, shield recharge delay is supposed to reset every time a Merc takes damage, so while this assessment is currently accurate it is not working as intended, maybe be patched on the 3rd when 1.4 lands and in any case isn't a good factor to consider building balance around.

I dare say you can take on 4 people at the same time and consistently in CQC just by being mobile and spraying a GEK because your tank is so effective! but, this is not OP because it is by design you need max level skills to be able to tank like this, and it cost you 100k ISK.

at longer ranges (preferably mid-range) you become a GOD due to damage fall off your shields and armor will take almost no damage from all save a sniper or forgun gun

Now I am not saying these suits not are tough to kill, but I am saying we should be careful not to overstate the case.
Further I ran around in a logi suit which weighed in at around 800 HP and I was far from unkillable, in fact I was still able to be OHK (not often but it still happened, shotty, nades, sniper rifle).

I'm wondering what you're looking at as far as heavy fits by comparison? Just being at a higher HP, or even eHP alone doesn't show a problem, being there while rocking an equal or better weapon and/or costing less per fitting however could start to become a problem.

A few thoughts that occurred to me upon first read.

Cheers,
Cross

wel, those are designed for OHK, cant argue with you there. my point is with an AR and this set up, its hard for people of a lower teir to compete. however, using shotguns, nades, forguns, and snipers are still effective. resulting in this build NOT being OP.

indeed, facing opponents in ADV gear can cut the life of proto gear very short. im just going to sum up my mentality this way. i was measuring the effective life span of the build against that of the basic suit. since nothing gets lower than milita. how many miltia suits is this proto of max level suit worth?

it occured to me that the aforementioed set up can easily decimate militia suits in seconds, in fact it can decimate them so fast that even fighting 3-4 of them at the same time isnt sufficient. unless of course your standing still for 2.2 seconds.

the thing is when medium frames have similar of equal ehp to those of a heavy they bring the only advantage a heavy has without any of the draw backs.

although turn speed is soon to be fixed, they still have a higher movement speed and smaller hit boxes than a heavy. So, when a medium frame can tank as hard as a heavy and still move at mach speed, with a small hit box its a problem.

it literally defeats the point to a heavy being a heavy. I haven't used the fitting calculator, but i added up the numbers my self. with maximum shield and armor core upgrades at lvl5, and shield and armor extenders and plates at lvl5 respectively. both the proto basic and proto sentinel achieve the same ehp of 1580. but at the cost of mobility (you literally move slower than a turret).
under miltia AR fire a heavy with the aforementioed ehp dies in 3.7 secs, the builds mentioed above survive up to 2.2 sec but move 2x as fast.

[quote=D legendary hero]
a compelling argument
Cheers,
Cross

Dabbling with the fitting tool I get
EHP 1591 | ISK 88,515 | AUR 0
Note: These are all 1.3 numbers

So on balance that Cal Assault is getting ~40.6% less EHP at a cost of 3,285 more ISK per fitting. In a broader sense I'm inclined to think the Heavy could use some love, but based on the numbers here I don't see how these duel tanked suits can qualify as defeating the point of being a heavy, they have less EHP at a higher ISK per fitting cost and possess no access to heavy weapons.

The best indicator that there is a problem is that I cannot envision the playstyle that makes armor tanking optimal. Try and think of a situation where someone who runs Caldari fits would say "When I get some sp built up into Gallente suits..." never going to happen.

Camping on triage hives.

the problem with using the blanket term 'defending' (this is totally related to armor vs shield), is that the ONLY difference between an attacker and a defender is that the 'defender' is already there.

really, if shield tankers are good at attacking a position how much more so can they defend the same position? since, difference is simply positioning, relative to offense, shield tankers can Do both better than armor tankers.

if armor tankers are ok at defending then they are ok at offense inversely, under the same conditions. the problem is this is flawed. If they need triage to defend a position they need it to assault. and since this doesnt work on defense it wont work on offense in a similar situation.

i.e. if galente armor tankers were defending a hallway and shield tankers take them out, in the same location with roles reversed, the shield tankers would be superior defenders

TL;DR the difference between offense and defense is position. and since positioning is a tactic, and we are comparing equipment and dropsuits. a superior dropsuit on offense or defense will always be a superior drop suit..

The logic... it burns my neurons

hate

Yissss, let it your hate make your more powerful.

Seriously, this issue is better but not resolved. The armor tank still requires more SP. They need more modules to get lower regen and only slightly better buffer. We are still, for some unknowable reason, slower then shield tanks. Modules are still balanced in such a way that are free high slots are only useful for buffer shields or damage mods. There's absolutely no word on changes like this or racial bonuses.

We got a small plate buff, which is nice but this war is far from over.

Power unlimited power!

anikin walking into chamber with younglings = shield tanker

younglings = armor tankers

What is it that people who argue that we are balanced always say? "Well the younglings could have just used flux grenades!" "Where were the younglings logibros?"

Because they cry about losing their shields instantly, my counter argument is well you should of used a core locus grenade. The logibro argument well anybody with a brain can realize that since almost everybody shield tanks triage logibros aren't high demand and thus rare.

the problem with using the blanket term 'defending' (this is totally related to armor vs shield), is that the ONLY difference between an attacker and a defender is that the 'defender' is already there.

really, if shield tankers are good at attacking a position how much more so can they defend the same position? since, difference is simply positioning, relative to offense, shield tankers can Do both better than armor tankers.

if armor tankers are ok at defending then they are ok at offense inversely, under the same conditions. the problem is this is flawed. If they need triage to defend a position they need it to assault. and since this doesnt work on defense it wont work on offense in a similar situation.

i.e. if galente armor tankers were defending a hallway and shield tankers take them out, in the same location with roles reversed, the shield tankers would be superior defenders

TL;DR the difference between offense and defense is position. and since positioning is a tactic, and we are comparing equipment and dropsuits. a superior dropsuit on offense or defense will always be a superior drop suit..