Defending objectives or defending something is the only thing armor is good for, to be honest. The only time an armor suit can Excel at frontline combat is with a logistics suit wrapped around their thumb.

I know that you're saying that armor will still make you slower as compared to shields and I agree. I know you're saying that over alll shields are less on pg and cpu and i agree. You forgot one important variable though. What type of weapon is the armor wearer using and what type of weapon is the person wearing shields using? Some weapons are hybrids, some useful against armor, and others useful against shields. So factor that into the equation not to mention fire rate and the skill of the person using the weapon the armor stacker in many cases may win. Also the person wearing armor has a larger HP pool for a logi w/ repairs to heal him while he fights someone stacking shields who may also have a logi backing him. Consider the HP pool the armor person has w/ the ability for instant repairs from a logi and he should win everytime. I think thats balanced. Point I'm making is carry the right weapon w/ you for the fight and play in groups where players compliment eachothers roles.

they have ~40% less ehp. but make up for that in almost double the movement speed, and as i mentioned a smaller hit box.

And as I mentioned I'm pretty sure that hitbox size thing is a forum myth. Do you have any links confirming that it's a real thing or are we both speculating here?

I'm pretty sure I've seen confirmation that hitboxes are different sizes based on suit size.

Quick info dumpGǪ

The collision box changes size slightly as the pose of the model changes when sprinting. WeGÇÖre tuning this so that you donGÇÖt get the issues with catching on things anymore.

The hit box doesnGÇÖt change size.

The hit box is a different size for the different dropsuits, so yes the heavy is bigger and the scout is smaller.

There seems to be a lag related issue with hit detection and that is most likely the problem youGÇÖre experiencing. WeGÇÖre looking in to that.

What about the shield user using a Mass driver vs the Armor user using a AR? There is no way the Armor user would survive even with a Logi repairing. The HP pool an armor person is actually the same as a shield suits when you consider shields higher resistance to the majority of damage. When you add a core locus grenade on the shield suit vs a flux grenade on the armor suit you skew the results even closer to the shield suit winning. Also a logi repairs are easily out DPSed by any weapon, logistic repairs are only suitable in between battles not during.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1141246#post1141246



I thought I've seen it before this, but this wasn't too long ago.

PS ~ D legendary hero, looks like that addresses our discussion before and moves me even more adamantly into thinking the Heavy frame needs some love to give it proper utility. What is your take on how having a hit box increase tied to shield extender use would effect the state of the game for Heavies?

EDIT: All of the above assumes that I don't come back later and realize I've somehow misread something key

if you increase the hit box sizes, then tanking with a minmintar suit will be pointless.

The minmintar race shield tanks more than armor because this can help them to keep their movement speed high and still tank reasonably.

I actually run Minmitar and while obviously having no down side makes a mod more effective than having a down side I don't think shield extenders applying a % increase to hitbox size would be all that damaging to Minmitar builds (and this comes from someone who is dedicated to the idea of moving fast).

0.02 ISK
Cross

just remember minmintar have the lowest overall ehp. so, what could balance caldari shield tanking could adversly effect minmintar shield tanking. (honestly i've been pushing to get minmintar to have more low slots)

Just remove a low from the Caldari suit.

tbh the caldari slot load out should be switched with the minmintar. so at proto, the caldar have 5 high and 2 low. and minmintar have 4 and 4.

Agreed although 4/3 for the Minmatar seems more logical. But then again I like their 5/2.

Well, I don't know if anyone else noticed, but with the lateral and backwards movement caps back in place, the new movement penalty values are near pointless. On top of that hit detection, aim assist, hit box fluctuation or whatever has eliminated the purpose of pure armor tanking, pure shield tanking and any other variant tanking styles in between. It's all about who has the highest EHP through hybrid tanking while modules like reppers, regulators, rechargers, and energizers don't matter because everything can kill you in 3 seconds.

Disagree.

I see WAY TOO MUCH fighting in AR range. That is the gun that WILL level you in no time flat. At about 65m the AR gets about 30% efficiency while the ASR/SR/Laser/MD and TAC AR all can hit really hard still.

We shouldn't be arguing that your tank should be able to last so long for such and such a time. The longer a tank can last, the mmore irrelevant weapon damage profiles become, unless we want more weapons that do 30% damage to one or the other tank types. When you can take away 350 shield with one burst shot of your SR at 65m, and then follow up with a few more rounds you are engaging a strategy of tanking (kiting/tactical sniping) that isn't currently existing.

People need to spread out.

Don't forget that shield tanks were good, not because of how long they could survive, but because how quickly they could reengage after the fight. It was regen that mattered. Now we are all getting out of the bad strafing habit. If you are engaging in open terrain, then that is a huge risk. If you are engaging around or near cover, you have a better chance at surviving. Also, if you can engage and have an escape route that is not in the enemies LOS you have a better chance of getting away, especially if you are outside the detection zone of 10m-15m for most suits.

I understand you bias against strafing, but it needs to be an essential part of gunplay or maps need to be re-worked to accommodate this short TTK, duck and cover style. It's not even about armor vs shields anymore because everyone just hybrid brick tanks since aim-assisted weapons can hipfire from extreme ranges and connect.

Yeah I already posted on the manus peak map. I agree that map more than any has very little cover. But you get my point that TTK is directly proportional to weapon efficiency? When people are fighting against a really high DPS weapon inside its optimals they shouldn't expect the TTK to be very long right? And if you can strafe the fire of the highest RoF/highes DPS weapon then how do you balance weapons that are low RoF and medium DPS? If strafing is THAT effective against that kind of weapon, using any other weapon type becomes pointless, you see? If RoF is REQUIRED in order to land a significant fraction of your weapon's damage then either they would HAVE to buff the lower RoF weapons to hit even harder, or do something to negate the effectiveness of strafing as a counter. If for example there was a type of locus grenade (that I have suggested) that slows the enemy down, that could be helpful for combating it. But the most damaging aspect of strafing is its ability to negate incoming damage, especially against low RoF weapons. You can't say that there is a skill equivalent between the AR and the TAC-AR when it comes to landing shots. There is a huge advantage to that high RoF inside the optimals.

It does need a balance and it should balance out at the highest level max gun skills vs max health skills should not be as one sided as it is now. Atm when you play one might as well be roaming the battlefield naked for the shields and armour make no difference at all

I feel like the loudest folks on TTK here are the PC folks. I think in pub/FW matches with completely manageable latency (most of my experience) I'm at EASILY able to get by as a very logi oriented logi that gives most of my fitting budget to equipment rather than tank ending up with 500ish eHP. 500 eHP can die to a sneeze according to some folks, and can't stand up to the lucky core locus grenade, but more often than not, since I can detect enemies ahead of time I can keep enough distiance between us to make my scrambler rifle or mass driver deadly enough, and in those instances where I am close, I feel like I have enough of a grasp on the scrambler pistol that I am safe.

I do not expect to be able to dive into 3-4 people and come out alive as some people think they should.

The problem with PC still isn't TTK is it latency. Poor lag forces a closer gun game because AR has the best DPS and RoF combo. AR requires close range, and close range fighting requires enough of a balance of speed and tank. This favors shield tanking for a variety of reasons that are pretty obvious.

Therefore, I think it stands pretty clearly to reason that the problem with the meta now isn't weapon/suit stats, its hardware/network capability and reliability.

So THIS is where all your likes came from!