I just saw it an actually laughed out loud.

Well numbers are easy to change at least...

This is a pathetic attempt to fix the balance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_LlH2c5dyA
1:10

TERRIBLE.
100% PURE TERRIBLE.

Stats:
Complex ferroscale plate:
60 HP

Complex reactive:
45 hp, 2hp/s, 4% movement penalty


Does CCP have monkeys on the balancing team?

Why do they insist upon giving armor tanking a negative movement speed when it is the least useful tank in the game? Why make it even less useful?


Incomprehensible...

I'm not seeing enough Murder Taxis, is this even a Dust trailer?

Considering a heavy survived someone snucking up on him...

Wait, what? What did you expect from these two new armors? 60 for complex is almost as much as a complex shield extender, did you honestly expect it to eb MORE than a shield extender? 45 + 2 regen is in between enhanced and complex shield regen AND gives you a small armor regen. Keep in mind, the difference between a small armor regen that can top you off after fights and no armor regen is huge.

These things seem INCREDIBLY balanced. What were you expecting? More health than shield but no penalties too? Maybe, just to placate some weird feelings, they shouldve made then equal to the shield extenders but meh, they are pretty damned close. There is very little chance another 6 health from a module will be the difference between a shot killing you or not.

And a Mass Driver got a kill....

Wait, what? What did you expect from these two new armors? 60 for complex is almost as much as a complex shield extender, did you honestly expect it to eb MORE than a shield extender? 45 + 2 regen is in between enhanced and complex shield regen AND gives you a small armor regen. Keep in mind, the difference between a small armor regen that can top you off after fights and no armor regen is huge.

These things seem INCREDIBLY balanced. What were you expecting? More health than shield but no penalties too? Maybe, just to placate some weird feelings, they shouldve made then equal to the shield extenders but meh, they are pretty damned close. There is very little chance another 6 health from a module will be the difference between a shot killing you or not.

I did the math a little while ago. and meh its balance. 5 complex reactive plates =225 HP 10hp per second with 10%(I didn't do the math but im guessing it lower with penalties for stacking) speed penalty. so two complex 115=230 hp with 2 complex repairers for 10hp you get more speed penalty. but with even a slight bonus to either hp or repair rates they are more powerful. I used 50 hp with 3hp repaired and you get 250hp with 15 hps with less speed penalty and more hp then a fit of 2 complex plates with 3 repairers. so just something different to think about for you armor guys.

Complex SHield mods are 54/11, how is 40/14 unbalanced? You get about the same health for 3 more PG and 14 less cpu. This allows you to be way more flexible with your builds. Hell, overall the fitting usage is lower on these mods. The 3 PG difference means up 21.4% of the PG usages, the 14 CPU usage makes up 29% of the CPU usage.

So your total fitting is easier with these armor plates...

I honestly dont see a problem at all and these seem perfect, if anything they are a bit OP since they allow such flexibiliy on builds. Gallante scouts seem way more viable now.

Yes because you have the OPTION of going big on armor and getting a speed penalty, or you forsake that speed penalty and get about the same health. You have the option of getting regen with your armor as well, taking two slots instead of 1.

Shield regen is delayed, armor is instant. Shield regen doesnt have repair tools to help it, Armor does.

Honestly, you guys have no idea what you are talking about if you think these look UP. They seem absolutely amazing and open up a world of possibilities for my builds I never had before because I didnt want to sacrifice speed. Keep in mind they are also LOW slots, not high. What modules are competiting for your low slots? Shield extenders have to compete with damage mods.

Come on, use your heads here. If you could stack armor mods with no penalty over shield you would because then you could fit damage mods too. Armor regen is different, and perhaps a bit worse, but it does have some advantages over shield regen.

Any more loud, wrong opinions you guys want to yell at me?

Yes because you have the OPTION of going big on armor and getting a speed penalty, or you forsake that speed penalty and get about the same health. You have the option of getting regen with your armor as well, taking two slots instead of 1.

Shield regen is delayed, armor is instant. Shield regen doesnt have repair tools to help it, Armor does.

Honestly, you guys have no idea what you are talking about if you think these look UP. They seem absolutely amazing and open up a world of possibilities for my builds I never had before because I didnt want to sacrifice speed. Keep in mind they are also LOW slots, not high. What modules are competiting for your low slots? Shield extenders have to compete with damage mods.

Come on, use your heads here. If you could stack armor mods with no penalty over shield you would because then you could fit damage mods too. Armor regen is different, and perhaps a bit worse, but it does have some advantages over shield regen.

Any more loud, wrong opinions you guys want to yell at me?

What were people expecting? Ferroscale is pretty much inline with shield extenders and is repairable by tools and such which is nice. Reactive plates are two modules in one, it's pretty generous actually.

So armor getting less eHP and less recharge = balanced?
Do you people even think?

didn't even care to balance vs shields because that's a different issue with all the modules of one type vs another type and that's about weighing pros and cons. besides armor has the repair tools. shields have one LLAV that's difficult to use. IMO shields vs armor is balanced due to pros and cons and equipment to deal/help with them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_LlH2c5dyA
1:10

TERRIBLE.
100% PURE TERRIBLE.

Stats:
Complex ferroscale plate:
60 HP

Complex reactive:
45 hp, 2hp/s, 4% movement penalty


Does CCP have monkeys on the balancing team?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_LlH2c5dyA
1:10

TERRIBLE.
100% PURE TERRIBLE.

Stats:
Complex ferroscale plate:
60 HP

Complex reactive:
45 hp, 2hp/s, 4% movement penalty


Does CCP have monkeys on the balancing team?

Never.
EVER.
Post again when it comes to balancing.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83983
There, now I don't need to write a threadnaught myself.

Sure, we can have damage mods, and you can have speed mods.
Also, that delay means nothing.
So I get a head start of a few cycles aaaaaand... in one cycle the shield user blew me away.

I really enjoyed your post obviously a lot of thought went into it, i enjoyed the part where you complain and eloquently explain why by saying simply, terrible, magnificent! I also like the part where you explain what they can to to fix it in a helpful manner, really good stuff awesome read thanks. We need more people like you on these forum giving out thier insightful intellegent opinions.

Yes because you have the OPTION of going big on armor and getting a speed penalty, or you forsake that speed penalty and get about the same health. You have the option of getting regen with your armor as well, taking 1 slot instead of 2.

Shield regen is delayed, armor is instant. Shield regen doesnt have repair tools to help it, Armor does.

Honestly, you guys have no idea what you are talking about if you think these look UP. They seem absolutely amazing and open up a world of possibilities for my builds I never had before because I didnt want to sacrifice speed. Keep in mind they are also LOW slots, not high. What modules are competiting for your low slots? Shield extenders have to compete with damage mods.

Come on, use your heads here. If you could stack armor mods with no penalty over shield you would because then you could fit damage mods too. Armor regen is different, and perhaps a bit worse, but it does have some advantages over shield regen.

Any more loud, wrong opinions you guys want to yell at me?

Except you're getting shot at, so your shield doesnt regen at all, and all it takes is me landing a small hit on you to keep that regen from ever happening. Armor gets to keep repping. Plus armor tankers can carry nanos that can self heal. (if you dont, and you armror tank, you are bad at armor tanking) Plus armor tankers can have a logi heal you for 100+hp/s. Plus, armor tankers can run to supply depots and swap up for full health.

Armor rep isnt nearly as bad as you say. Passively shield is a bit better, yes, but if you take an active role in healing your armor you can do so very well, even supperior to shield. Be better at the game before talking about balance.

Do the math.
Its not generous, its the worst balancing attempt CCP tried when it comes to shield vs armor.

Math
Complex Reactive Plates: 45 armor, 2 hp/s, -4% movement
Complex Armor Plate: 115 armor, -10% movement
Complex Armor Repairer: 5 hp/s

2 Complex Reactive Plates: 90 armor, 4 hp/s, -8%movement
1 Complex armor plate and repairer: 115 armor, 5 hp/s, -10% movement

With the reactive plates you are a little faster, have nearly the same repair rate, but sacrifice 25 armor. Maybe doesn't sound too great, but it would only require training one skill and would be more ideal if you only had 1 low slot remaining.

Can somebody please tell me what skill level you need to have inorder to obtain use of these plates?

as you can see I haven't made a post on there or even read a lick of it. I don't care that about the imbalance between shields and armor in infantry. the new modules are balanced within their type(armor infantry modules) and I dare you to prove me wrong and I won't even try to balance them out of their class because that makes no sense.

Problem is, this gets NEAR current armor.
Now, tell me boy, is current armor any good?
No, no it isn't.
Compare it to shields, it sucks balls, these are even worse.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83983

Current armor is fine. I know a ton of people who prefer armor tanking. Just because you can't handle a small movement decrease or have the will to stay with your team for armor repairing instead of running around solo doesn't mean it's bad.

The possibilites have been opened for dual tankers.
Pure armor are still ****** over as usual.
Anyone who disagrees probably doesn't understand armor at all.
Or is terrible at balancing.
Refer to this threadnaught.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83983

Lol dude. Get a gun off the field? What are you talking about? Regen tanking isnt viable in DUST. ALL regen is too small to counter mroe than like 1 shot of damage with these kill times. The rep tools heals you AFTER the fight or AFTER you retreat, not during. My shield regen doesnt help when im getting shot at. It has a 4 second delay, 10 if it depletes, and the 20 or so a second doesnt negate the hundreds of damage per second coming my way.

I could see your problems if regen tanking was viable for shield but not for armor. Hell the only real regen tanking you can do is with the triage nanohives giving 70+ a second as you stand on it. Thats as close as we come in DUST to being able to do so. And geuss what, its with armor tankers, not shield.

I just want to point out that you are the only one in here completely flipping **** because you feel it's unbalanced. That's your opinion and you have a right to have it but damn dude take a chill, and remember it's Also OK for anyone to disagree.

Current armor is fine. I know a ton of people who prefer armor tanking. Just because you can't handle a small movement decrease or have the will to stay with your team for armor repairing instead of running around solo doesn't mean it's bad.

Speed is life.

btw was I the only one that seen the commando ak. 0
shields 392 and 312 armor(shields had a complex extender) 2 high slots and 1 low slot 1 equipment slot no grenades.

Of course I mean armor vs shield balancing.
Do I really need to spell it out?

I said this in another thread, but it's starting to look like they're bringing things in pre-nerfed just to eliminate the middle man.

so you can't prove me wrong, thank you and have a nice day. the imbalance between shields and armor is totally different matter that I am not touching.

Armor tanking has advantages in EVE that do not exist in Dust. Shield tanking in EVE has drawbacks that do not exist in Dust.

Personally I think CCP needs to go back to the drawing board with their tanking concept, because EVE mechanics do not easily fit in an FPS, certainly not in present-day Dust.

Kitten, pointing to a massive thread that nobody is going to read and then claiming it invalidated everyones point is dumb. If you yourself have the brain power and reasoning to know why we are wrong, you have the ability to sum it up. But so far you keep focusing just on the weaknesses of armor and not its strengths.

Plus why do you care if shield versus armor tanking is better? Why cant one be better than the other? Every player has option to do either or both. They are in different slots so they arent "competiting" with eachother. It would be like arguing that damage mods are better than kin cat mods. Who cares? They dont compete.

Wait, what? What did you expect from these two new armors? 60 for complex is almost as much as a complex shield extender, did you honestly expect it to eb MORE than a shield extender? 45 + 2 regen is in between enhanced and complex shield regen AND gives you a small armor regen. Keep in mind, the difference between a small armor regen that can top you off after fights and no armor regen is huge.

These things seem INCREDIBLY balanced. What were you expecting? More health than shield but no penalties too? Maybe, just to placate some weird feelings, they shouldve made then equal to the shield extenders but meh, they are pretty damned close. There is very little chance another 6 health from a module will be the difference between a shot killing you or not.

There is no downside to running shield extenders, recharger, or regulators - zero downside.

None.

Zip.

Zilch.

Nada.

SUCH INCREDIBLE BALANCE!

link please?

Are they bringing stuff in pre-nerfed to cut out the middle man?

Kitten, pointing to a massive thread that nobody is going to read and then claiming it invalidated everyones point is dumb. If you yourself have the brain power and reasoning to know why we are wrong, you have the ability to sum it up. But so far you keep focusing just on the weaknesses of armor and not its strengths.

Plus why do you care if shield versus armor tanking is better? Why cant one be better than the other? Every player has option to do either or both. They are in different slots so they arent "competiting" with eachother. It would be like arguing that damage mods are better than kin cat mods. Who cares? They dont compete.

I do agree that it appears that armor plates are balanced with eachother, that does seem legit to me.

So they need to find a good ratio of EHP that armor should have vs. shields then, and add in a penalty to shields or reduce the penalty to armor.

Seems like EHP on armor should be ~1.5 that of shields, but at this point it really isn't, not without a severe movement speed penalty.

I don't know anyone who likes armor tanking, ive never met a single person who even thought it was viable. Then again, I don't know many people who like dying over and over either.. so... yeah

Maybe we need to remove and rework remote rep tools if that's what holding back armor tanking, cause its not really an excuse, and I don't know anyone who is willing to do it outside of the newberry with no gun game in pub matches.

No one has the time to use a rep tool in PC, its constant action. You can't rely on another person to repair your armor in competitive play.

Shield tanking vs. armor tanking needs to be balanced purely by repair rate and effective hp. Then, penalties between shield extenders and armor plates need to be balanced against each other, separately from EHP. (I would prefer removing penalties altogether but I know some of you seem to adore module penalties).

Because everytime I sum it up, people start saying wrong things.
You just can't sum it all up, its too long.
Every point has reasoning, because on the surface it might sound good, but when you actually crunch the numbers shield wins every time.
If you don't feel like reading a good and long explanation that disproves any "advantage" armor has, then you have no say in balancing.
Because you're gonig to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

"Plus why do you care if shield versus armor tanking is better? Why cant one be better than the other? Every player has option to do either or both. They are in different slots so they arent "competiting" with eachother. It would be like arguing that damage mods are better than kin cat mods. Who cares? They dont compete."

There is a whole race called Gallente that relies on armor tanking.
Its currently the most useless race.
You know why?

I do agree that it appears that armor plates are balanced with eachother, that does seem legit to me.

So they need to find a good ratio of EHP that armor should have vs. shields then, and add in a penalty to shields or reduce the penalty to armor.

Seems like EHP on armor should be ~1.5 that of shields, but at this point it really isn't, not without a severe movement speed penalty.

I don't know anyone who likes armor tanking, ive never met a single person who even thought it was viable. Then again, I don't know many people who like dying over and over either.. so... yeah

Maybe we need to remove and rework remote rep tools if that's what holding back armor tanking, cause its not really an excuse, and I don't know anyone who is willing to do it outside of the newberry with no gun game in pub matches.

No one has the time to use a rep tool in PC, its constant action. You can't rely on another person to repair your armor in competitive play.

Shield tanking vs. armor tanking needs to be balanced purely by repair rate and effective hp. Then, penalties between shield extenders and armor plates need to be balanced against each other, separately from EHP. (I would prefer removing penalties altogether but I know some of you seem to adore module penalties).

I know why, because armor repairs at the speed of roadkill and the extenders for it make you move even slower. The speed debuff should either be racial or suit based - as in heavy's don't get a debuff or Gallente doesn't or something.

Also, if they ever get around to putting a downside on shield tanking, the scout should be the suit that has zero downside...

Like, you can make the modules work on every suit, but make them work more better-er on the suit they're intended for.

Why do they insist upon giving armor tanking a negative movement speed when it is the least useful tank in the game? Why make it even less useful?


Incomprehensible...

Look, its not that shields suck more than Armor... Its just. "Caldari Logis". And switching the shield bonus to Assault Caldari wont remedy it. There just needs to be a whole different bonus altogether.

I have no issue with the movement speed. Armour is IMO a great tank, better than those shield pussies who think they're all that.

At least Gallente scouts don't have to resort to shields anymore, thanks to ferroscale plates.

The upside to a scout is supposed to be hit and run, get out of battle, get your shields back up, and go back in shooting.
Unfortunately, since your lowslots are all eaten up by plates, you can't stack repair modules - and even if you did it still takes forever for them to regen, where as a regulator and extender combo occupy opposite slots allowing for better min/max capabilities.

At least Gallente scouts don't have to resort to shields anymore, thanks to ferroscale plates.

Shields need to give their user a larger scan signature and larger hitbox. Armor should affect max stamina and stamina regen rate.

While i'm okay with scan profile, you can't really mess with the hit boxes in this game or it'll go really bad really quick. hit boxes work very differently in eve, and it works, but in an fps hitboxes are everything.

I feel like the better way to do it would be to have armor plates affect sprint speed and stamina only, leave the regen rate in.
A profile penalty could work for shield extenders as long as shield tanking scouts get a significant bonus to profile dampening modules to help offset the penalty and still allow then to be viable.

While i'm okay with scan profile, you can't really mess with the hit boxes in this game or it'll go really bad really quick. hit boxes work very differently in eve, and it works, but in an fps hitboxes are everything.

I feel like the better way to do it would be to have armor plates affect sprint speed and stamina only, leave the regen rate in.
A profile penalty could work for shield extenders as long as shield tanking scouts get a significant bonus to profile dampening modules to help offset the penalty and still allow then to be viable.

Kitten, pointing to a massive thread that nobody is going to read and then claiming it invalidated everyones point is dumb. If you yourself have the brain power and reasoning to know why we are wrong, you have the ability to sum it up. But so far you keep focusing just on the weaknesses of armor and not its strengths.

Plus why do you care if shield versus armor tanking is better? Why cant one be better than the other? Every player has option to do either or both. They are in different slots so they arent "competiting" with eachother. It would be like arguing that damage mods are better than kin cat mods. Who cares? They dont compete.

I will summarise. You will likely try to argue against this summary with an argument I have already countered in my thread, so it is still good reading material. I doubt you'll bother, though.

- Armour gets less HP than shields overall, unless they stack plates in which case they cannot rep and move at the speed of a heavy.
- Armour gets much much slower regen than shields, the constant regeneration does not compensate for this sufficiently.
- Having a logistics player use an armour rep prevents them from shooting their gun, which is significantly more useful.
- Armour moves slower than shields, making it easier to hit a player using armour
- A logistics repairer repairs at a similar rate to shield regen. Using the prototype focused rep in an example is extremely biased.

There are very few areas where armour beats shield. Can you give me an example of one?


At this point, you realise that your argument is weak/wrong, so you begin to say "who cares anyway?"

Believe it or not, I'd actually quite like to play a balanced game.

Scout should be immune to the penalty - heavies should be immune to the armor penalty, every "role" while being fully customizable SHOULD get a bonus for using gear and mods central to their theoretical role.

Unfortunately that isn't the case so now we have super caldari logi troopers.

I will summarise. You will likely try to argue against this summary with an argument I have already countered in my thread, so it is still good reading material. I doubt you'll bother, though.

- Armour gets less HP than shields overall, unless they stack plates in which case they cannot rep and move at the speed of a heavy.
- Armour gets much much slower regen than shields, the constant regeneration does not compensate for this sufficiently.
- Having a logistics player use an armour rep prevents them from shooting their gun, which is significantly more useful.
- Armour moves slower than shields, making it easier to hit a player using armour
- A logistics repairer repairs at a similar rate to shield regen. Using the prototype focused rep in an example is extremely biased.

There are very few areas where armour beats shield. Can you give me an example of one?


At this point, you realise that your argument is weak/wrong, so you begin to say "who cares anyway?"

Believe it or not, I'd actually quite like to play a balanced game.

lolno.
Armor is worse in every way even to an assault.
Speaking about stuff before you research is bad, mm'kay.
Go to the threadnaught on the original post to get details, otherwise don't say things you don't understand.

I will summarise. You will likely try to argue against this summary with an argument I have already countered in my thread, so it is still good reading material. I doubt you'll bother, though.

- Armour gets less HP than shields overall, unless they stack plates in which case they cannot rep and move at the speed of a heavy.
- Armour gets much much slower regen than shields, the constant regeneration does not compensate for this sufficiently.
- Having a logistics player use an armour rep prevents them from shooting their gun, which is significantly more useful.
- Armour moves slower than shields, making it easier to hit a player using armour
- A logistics repairer repairs at a similar rate to shield regen. Using the prototype focused rep in an example is extremely biased.

There are very few areas where armour beats shield. Can you give me an example of one?


At this point, you realise that your argument is weak/wrong, so you begin to say "who cares anyway?"

Believe it or not, I'd actually quite like to play a balanced game.

I wonder if CCP is not increasing armor EHP because of the remote rep tool and that is why they aren't doing anything.

Cause if you remove the rep tool then it becomes painfully clear how bad armor tanking is.

Oh please. I dont need to read some stupid thread that some wannabe physics major typed up.

Why? Because i actually play the game. My main is Amarrian. So yes i do know what the **** im talking about.

Im not going to waste my going back through the thread to see if you have anymore posts so i know where you are coming from, but its obvious you are a typical QQ'r who says everything is OP/UP when you die instead of just excepting the fact you got killed.

Instead of bringing in more crap, they need to just look back over the racial suit traits.

Any scientist will tell you personal experience is the least credible source.
This post has FACTS, mathematical ones, proving how shield beats armor by a mile.
Go live in ignorance.

Oh and im sure you are the scientist who is going to tell me im wrong. Why dont you pick your tin foil hat up and carry on excepting everything that seems intelligent and true.

Well I asked for a blog about this but the Dev involved said he won't be able to do it until after vacation (Dragon Boat Festival) . As long as the plates are however functional the numbers can be changed later.

I do agree shields needs penalties but right now the sensors are all screwed up.

Honestly Anita,

As a Caldari Logi.. even if they removed the extender bonus it really wouldn't change that much. My shield tank build would still be more effective than armor tanking.

I do agree that the racial bonuses need to be looked at and reworked, but the move speed penalty still continues to make armor tanking inferior.

But the new armor dont have speed penalty and are pretty much equal to shield tanking. A little worse, but also a little less on the requirements and dont compete with damage mods.

Plus, and heres the big kicker, introducing penalty-less armor mods just opens up these mods to players who never would have used them before. Your caldari logi can now tank BOTH armor and shield without worrying about speed.

The debate of armor versus shield tanking seems relatively pointless since most suits can do some of both. The big questions are shield tanking versus damage mods and armor tanking versus speed tanking.

Right now it seems like shield tanking is a bit OP compared to damage mods, but not crazy. But speed tanking is way OP compared to armor tanking. Thats why you dont see armor a lot, it has very little to do with the balance between shield and armor.

I wonder if people realize that the current armor mods right now are better than these new ones lol.

I'd like to challenge someone to find a fit using these new armor mods that will be better than the ones we already have..

I can't come up with one at least...

And you're missing the point.
I'm done arguing, you have nothing to contribute to this thread.

Lol someones giving up easily. You are just mad. Give yourself a few days to un rustle your jimmies.

You think you know how everything should be, but balancing armor and shields is alot harder than what people make it out to be. Maybe if you could think harder about the outcome of some random change to Shield/Armor and how it effects the game itself instead of you personally... you may come up with a conclusion.

Caldari Logi..

But the new armor dont have speed penalty and are pretty much equal to shield tanking. A little worse, but also a little less on the requirements and dont compete with damage mods.

Plus, and heres the big kicker, introducing penalty-less armor mods just opens up these mods to players who never would have used them before. Your caldari logi can now tank BOTH armor and shield without worrying about speed.

The debate of armor versus shield tanking seems relatively pointless since most suits can do some of both. The big questions are shield tanking versus damage mods and armor tanking versus speed tanking.

Right now it seems like shield tanking is a bit OP compared to damage mods, but not crazy. But speed tanking is way OP compared to armor tanking. Thats why you dont see armor a lot, it has very little to do with the balance between shield and armor.

I meant try making an armor tank fit with these new mods.

Has anyone started a "shields are OP" thread yet? I bet it would end up being 20 pages.

Shield extenders need a goddamn penalty to be balanced. Armor is already bad without passive regen. They should increase scan profile or something c'mon.

Lol someones giving up easily. You are just mad. Give yourself a few days to un rustle your jimmies.

You think you know how everything should be, but balancing armor and shields is alot harder than what people make it out to be. Maybe if you could think harder about the outcome of some random change to Shield/Armor and how it effects the game itself instead of you personally... you may come up with a conclusion.

I personally think they may help out the Gallente Scouts a bit. Potentially create a scout who's not paper thin, and still almost as fast as a Minnie.

Ok, the speed issue is legit, but that is removed from the equation with the new plates. Now you have shield and armor which are both very similar to eHP with no speed penalty.

So the only issue left is regen. I dont disagree with anything you said, but I think you are overstating the importance. The reason is because you are talking about regen during battle. (Logi not being able to shoot etc.)

First, shield regen does not start right away. 4 seconds. In that time, most fights are already decided. Either you are dead in 4 seconds, they are dead, or someone has retreated. Active regen of shield will almost never come into play. Even after the 4 second pass, you are looking at 2-3 more to survive a single shot based on your regen. That is not much help.

It is out of combat regen that actually matters. How quickly can you get back into the fight. Here, passively shield is better than armor. However, repair tools or nanohives can make armor superior. You arent "taking a gun out of the fight" with repair tools, because you are already out of the fight.

This isnt EVE or another RPG, you cant regen tank, kill times are too quick. If im armor tanking, im either a heavy with a logi, or I have a triage nanohive on me. This gets me back up to full health and back in the fight a lot quicker than shield regen. There are drawbacks sure, but it isnt as cut and dry as "the regen on shields is better" its just different, and lazier.

So speed, the new plates solve. Regen isnt better or worse on either one, its simply different. If you have some numbers that dispute the claim that regen taking is worthless and is viable, then you may have a point. But I dont think thats the case.

Has anyone started a "shields are OP" thread yet? I bet it would end up being 20 pages.

So what you're saying then is... are your 2-3 damage mods worth my being able to shield regen 30hp/s.

I guess we'll find out when 1.2 drops!

LOL you all do realize that the stuff in this video is still a good two-three years out of being released right?

No need to get all worked up about it yet.

LOL

I'm a Gallente scout...these new mods wouldn't help at all...

My gal scout currently runs 70 shield 255 armor with a 12.5 repair rate and 8.5 sprint.
That's all 4 slots between 1 enhanced plate 2 complex repairs and 1 comp kinetic

Honestly... I'm still going to stick with this even after the new plates come out because the regular plates with reps are better than these new ****** ones. Sure no speed penalty is cool but with the amount of health it gives its not worth it.

Don't even get me started on the reactive plates... Wow.. Are they ******** or what? They aren't even worth looking at imo lol.

2 armor repair Lolz

In an armor tank fit you're better of with what we have currently.

Coming in Uprising 1.2.
Are you telling me they will release 4-6 expansions (1 every 6 months), then revert back to Uprising?

LOL you all do realize that the stuff in this video is still a good two-three years out of being released right?

No need to get all worked up about it yet.

LOL

I think he was making a joke :p

I'm making a joke too :P

as you can see I haven't made a post on there or even read a lick of it. I don't care that about the imbalance between shields and armor in infantry. the new modules are balanced within their type(armor infantry modules) and I dare you to prove me wrong and I won't even try to balance them out of their class because that makes no sense.

So assuming these actually turn out to be final values (look at 1:08), there are a few things to be said and a couple to be asked as well.

First current plates, they still need a balance pass to enhance their internal balance (from base to complex within the line) and their contextual balance (as compared with shields, after all even if the new plates bring more parity to the armor line as a whole they do nothing to change the balance issues with the current plates).

Second Ferroscale Plates, text in the video is a bit grainy for me but it looks very much like these will be low slot shield mods with 6 less HP per mod and higher fitting requirements than the current complex plates. They do maintain the higher load on PG as opposed to CPU when compared with shields (a good thing IMO since it keeps the lines diverse) but this puts armor tank in an even tighter bind when it comes to PG. The new plates as shown in the video do seem to be a boon for scouts but I wonder about the comparative fitting numbers both between Complex Plates/Complex Ferroscale and between Complex Ferroscale/Complex Extenders.

The other aspect here is base tank between armor vs shields derived from slot layout, and suit/racial bonuses.
Right now outside of the Amarr Logi there's essentially no bonus to armor tank from racial skills, the only arguable exception being the +1 HP/s from the proto Logi role bonus. This means in essence that for everyone not playing Logi the new plates do nothing to increase the validity of an armor tank, further this omission of armor tank skill buffs on armor related racial suits will push any "slayers" who want to armor tank into a position of looking to the Logi line more favorably than the Assault.
There are already generally unfounded cries to nerf the Logi due to the underwhelming racial/proto skills possessed by the Assault line, we need less of this skill buff bias not more.

There is a counter point, armor tankers can now stack the 60HP plates in low slots and stack damage mods in the highs, but while this is a good balancing element between the mods it once again distorts under the weight of suit skill buffs as due to the underwhelming Assault suit buffs many 'slayers' may now look on the Gal Logi suit as the new Cal Logi 'slayer' fit. Additional counter point would be the Min Assault built in rep of 1 HP/s, this will be a net win for the Minmatar Assault suits.

Reactive Plates These plates sport the new 'higher than Complex Plates' fittings costs of 36 CPU/15 PG.
For that price you get 45 HP (20 HP less than a basic plate with 1% less speed reduction) 2 HP/s (the value of a basic repper mod). Total cost for those two items 30 CPU/2 PG, that's 6 CPU/13PG more spent to in essence save one low slot.
Assuming the rep from these plates is buffed by the Amarr Logi racial bonus this may help that suit out a little bit but the buff is rather minimal.

The more fittings cost for free slots idea is a novel concept and I actual like it for flavor and flex however I'm not sure how this applies to current suits. On balance the Reactive plates with their minimal speed debuff and their 2-for-1 slot count may be a net gain for the Assault suits as it would allow them some on board reps, a bit more HP and not hit their speed that much, while leaving some slots free for other things like Regulators, Kinetic Catalyzes, et al. If combined with a bit more 'gank' from some of the Assault skill buffs, or some armor specific Assault skill buffs on the Amarr/Gallente suits this could help even the field nicely. Also the speed penilty on these plates is low enough for some scout builds to adopt the use of one for on board reps, or for Heavies in some roles/squad configurations to really benefit.
All in all the Reactive Plates seem to be the big winner in the new changes with the single class gaining the least utility from them being the Logi who already have on board reps via skills, will have fewer reps to give out as self rep becomes more common and who (outside the Gal Logi) won't have the slots + PG to really make significant use of them for the most part.

Final thoughts the new plates seem like good additions and they'll help some of the problem aspects present but other changes are most certainly needed to bring armor/shields into balance. Further care must be taken not to have the new mods create another misplaced wave of nerf threads as racial skills distort overall game effects.

That's my current analysis assuming that the stats in the video turn out to be the same stats upon release of the new mods.

0.02 ISK
Cross

Yes. Out of combat regen matters a lot more - and shields are superior here. A shield tanker can have 25-30 HP/s shield regeneration passively with no assistance. An armour tanker gets half that number, if even that. A pair of complex repairers repair at 12.5 HP/s. This is assuming the armour tanker gives up two slots, a chunk of SP, and a lot of fitting resources.
A remote armour repairer, which requires another player and isn't nearly as reliable as shield regen, regens at a very similar rate. It also requires that a player give up an equipment slot and fitting resources.

These plates are more useful to shield tankers than armor tankers, that's why you have all these scrubs without a clue about the problems with armor tanking, and how these don't address them, coming in here saying how awesome these new plates are.

Thanks CCP, great job!

My first thoughts from a related thread on this subject.

These plates are more useful to shield tankers than armor tankers, that's why you have all these scrubs without a clue about the problems with armor tanking, and how these don't address them, coming in here saying how awesome these new plates are.

Thanks CCP, great job!

Again, armor tanking versus shield tanking doesnt matter, at all. You can do one or both. If you have some weird philishophical reason you NEED to armor tank and therefore it NEEDS to be the same as shield in all sense, well I'm sorry.

There is no reason the two tanking need to fulfill similar roles. Armor tanking can be worse in a lot of ways that shield tanking, it doesnt make any balance bad.

Explain to me why you need your build to revolve around armor tanking?

Yes, with speed penalties, armor was inferior. But the new mods seem to help fix that. Plus, now one of the advantages to armor tanking is versatility. You have choices now. eHP similar to shield but without rep, eHp less than shield but with minimal rep, eHP greater than shield but no rep and speed penalty. I can see each of those, or even combinations of those, being used for different playstyles.

Again, armor tanking versus shield tanking doesnt matter, at all. You can do one or both. If you have some weird philishophical reason you NEED to armor tank and therefore it NEEDS to be the same as shield in all sense, well I'm sorry.

There is no reason the two tanking need to fulfill similar roles. Armor tanking can be worse in a lot of ways that shield tanking, it doesnt make any balance bad.

Explain to me why you need your build to revolve around armor tanking?

To clearify, I dont get why its an "us versus them." What makes someone a shield tanker or an armor tanker? Why are they exclusive things? So your fit has more low slots? Why did you pick that fit to begin with? If it was to get good eHP with speed penalty and repair penalty, cool. If not...then why didnt you pick a suit with more high slots than low?

Balance doesnt mean everything does the same thing. There is zero reason to view armor tanking as in competition with shield tanking, they go in different slots. Itd be like me complaining my pistol doesnt have the range as my rifle.

Actually the AR is balanced against the pistol. The fact that the AR should and does have a longer range is evidence of that balance, not against it. All the weapons are balanced relatively to each other, heavy, light and sidearm. It's function that determines what something compares to and since both shield and armor mods function to add HP and alter regen of course they should be balanced.

Please show me with numbers how the current armor plate line is properly balanced internally, note not against the new mods, just the current line of plates internally.

Further when providing comments on overall fittings and balance between new mods and current mods please include slots and CPU/PG costs to attain each. I point this out because, while I admittedly haven't had the chance to go over them in as much detail as I want yet, the fittings costs seem to be the real stumbling block... tho I suppose they might be less of an issue if you're not interested in considering their usefulness or balance implications game wide and are only trying to do a direct comparison of mods internal to the armor line. Even so I'd like to see your break down with those fittings numbers included.

Cheers,
Cross

The AR is anything but balanced when more than 90% of the playerbase is using an AR compared to the 80% in Chrome and everything else is a novelty by comparison.

Perhaps Armor isn't meant to be tanked, it's basically the Dust equivalent of red bar health from other games. Or maybe it's not meant to be tanked yet. For all we know Gallente Assualt and Heavy suits might get racial bonues that add to armor module efficiency by say lowering the speed reduction, raising the HP given, or adding a passive damage reduction. At this point we don't have all the suits or even all the weapons. I understand people might want to Armor Tank, and say that now it's not balanced to Shield Tanking, however we don't have all the pieces, so you can't say it's not balanced until we do.

Having been steamrolled by the best I can vouch that in order to be competitive, you need to use the same Doctrine that every powerhouse is currently using. The DUST 514 tm method.

Drop
Uplinks
Shield
Tank

5 Complex Shield Extenders
1 team of Caldari Logistics ck.0 with Uplinks and Hives
4 Complex Shield Regulators

Troll via mail
Make an abusive forum thread



I welcome any improvements to Armor-based gameplay and personally feel something needs to be done about drop uplink spam too - while clever in theory it just isn't enjoyable or realistic having to clear 48 spawn points every few minutes.

Seems a little OP with invisible reds spawning from any given direction as your knee deep in a field of them.

Never.
EVER.
Post again when it comes to balancing.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83983
There, now I don't need to write a threadnaught myself.

Sure, we can have damage mods, and you can have speed mods.
Also, that delay means nothing.
So I get a head start of a few cycles aaaaaand... in one cycle the shield user blew me away.

The AR is anything but balanced when more than 90% of the playerbase is using an AR compared to the 80% in Chrome and everything else is a novelty by comparison.

Are you actually assigning intent to the decisions thy make concerning this game?

Stop doing that, you'll put your eye out.

Hey guys.

Yeah, obviously having this information released in a trailer isn't the best thing in the world. We are working on getting dev blogs out about all the new stuff we'll be releasing in our next patch, which is currently scheduled for early July (we'll have an exact release date ready for you in the near future).

But all numbers are still subject to change and we will of course monitor feedback on these numbers and make tweaks as appropriate.

A little late to the party, but this is the kind of transparency we needed before. Instead people have to dissect trailers and go into WMG mode.

Indeed. Like I said, it's not the best way to disseminate information and I promise you we're trying really really hard to keep things like this from happening and get you information on changes and additions the game out in a timely and appropriate manner (definitely for real this time, honest!)

I think I'll be sticking with my dual basic plates and complex reppers...

CCP, you look like a cheating wife, who after being caught again promises that it's the last time. Your information transparency is same as North Korea's. We have laterally no info and at the moment it looks like even you are runing from this sinking ship.

Indeed. Like I said, it's not the best way to disseminate information and I promise you we're trying really really hard to keep things like this from happening and get you information on changes and additions the game out in a timely and appropriate manner (definitely for real this time, honest!)

Hey guys.

Yeah, obviously having this information released in a trailer isn't the best thing in the world. We are working on getting dev blogs out about all the new stuff we'll be releasing in our next patch, which is currently scheduled for early July (we'll have an exact release date ready for you in the near future).

But all numbers are still subject to change and we will of course monitor feedback on these numbers and make tweaks as appropriate.

There's a simple and beautiful answer here - armor resistance amplifiers.

Make the ability to modify resistance to damage types the advantage that armor has over sheilds. Make it a lowslot module so it competes with plates for slots.

We are working on getting dev blogs out about all the new stuff we'll be releasing in our next patch

There's a simple and beautiful answer here - armor resistance amplifiers.

Make the ability to modify resistance to damage types the advantage that armor has over sheilds. Make it a lowslot module so it competes with plates for slots.

Where have we heard this be- OH YEAH! Always!

Btw, were still waiting on that Dropsuit dev blog from April.

You're like a bad date, every time we show up to the restaurant and order the surf and turf and you just never show up.

Seriously, just -stop-. Stop telling us there's going to be dev blogs (for real this time, again) when we all know they're not coming out. You've done cried wolf so many times even the wolves are pissed

@CCP Eterne:

Everyone here voicing there discontent are proving my point. You guys have 10 years under your belt in the PC market, but console gamers are seeing what you have to offer for the first time.

Indeed. Like I said, it's not the best way to disseminate information and I promise you we're trying really really hard to keep things like this from happening and get you information on changes and additions the game out in a timely and appropriate manner (definitely for real this time, honest!)

To make it clearer, when are you going to release information on the upcoming patch and if you don't know, then who does ?

It's rather dissappointing that someone comes touting how they want to be more transparent with information while at the same time they show us how they aren't going to be. So how about getting bit honesty in here and telling us, will you give us information on the upcoming changes? When will you give information if you will? That's 2 things that are easy to tell and you have the roadmap ready anywho.

Dude, you know he's just going to say SoonTM.

Hey guys.

Yeah, obviously having this information released in a trailer isn't the best thing in the world. We are working on getting dev blogs out about all the new stuff we'll be releasing in our next patch, which is currently scheduled for early July (we'll have an exact release date ready for you in the near future).

But all numbers are still subject to change and we will of course monitor feedback on these numbers and make tweaks as appropriate.

READ
THIS
POST
Every single thing you just said is invalid.

Can you at least confirm these are not the final stats?

Indeed. Like I said, it's not the best way to disseminate information and I promise you we're trying really really hard to keep things like this from happening and get you information on changes and additions the game out in a timely and appropriate manner (definitely for real this time, honest!)

Ugh, the amount of inordinate bitching in this thread is indescribable. Don't you people use your heads?

- It was a five second glimpse of something that isn't even in the game yet. It could be a placeholder for all you know.
- The armor plates give you less, but they a) don't have a movement speed penalty, b) are cheaper and c) don't require as much PG/CPU.
- As much as you'd like to believe otherwise, you're not a game designer and you aren't able to tell if something is balanced or unbalanced just by looking at stats unless it's absolutely obvious that the weapon will be broken.

Ugh, the amount of inordinate bitching in this thread is indescribable. Don't you people use your heads?

- It was a five second glimpse of something that isn't even in the game yet. It could be a placeholder for all you know.
- The armor plates give you less, but they a) don't have a movement speed penalty, b) are cheaper and c) don't require as much PG/CPU.
- As much as you'd like to believe otherwise, you're not a game designer and you aren't able to tell if something is balanced or unbalanced just by looking at stats unless it's absolutely obvious that the weapon will be broken.

I would be willing to wager that only 10% of the people in thos thread who think armour is balanced, actually use armour.

Hey guys.

Yeah, obviously having this information released in a trailer isn't the best thing in the world. We are working on getting dev blogs out about all the new stuff we'll be releasing in our next patch, which is currently scheduled for early July (we'll have an exact release date ready for you in the near future).

But all numbers are still subject to change and we will of course monitor feedback on these numbers and make tweaks as appropriate.

People must be trolling...

Armor takes up low slots, leaving mids for damage mods.

All armor regen continues during combat, shield requires a few seconds out of combat.

The suits that are made to armor tank have more pg anway, just as shield suits have more cpu.

You can easily hit over 10 armor per second that never stops. Factor in the recharge delay into shield reps and consider the depleted delay while you're at it when weighting it vs shield.

The armor probably wins in many scenarios and the minor speed penalty is probably because damage mods go in the highs. Armor/shield balance is probably the only reason dust suits are the only thing in the eve universe that have dmg mods as high d l ot instead of low.

As I already said, the armor speed penalty sucks, yes, but you can still fit damage mods in your highs while using every low for tank.

Do you want armor to be exactly identical to shield? Auto regen, same fitting reqs, no speed penalty? If you make it exactly the same that tends to make it pointless even having two tanking options.

If shield is that much better then why push so hard for a buff to armor beyond what they are already doing? I tend to think some people here are looking to have a heavy suit with a ridiculous buffer and constant armor regen on top of that.

You need to look at more than just total buffer hp, and rep speed and consider what else goes in those slots. Also suit balance is a different discussion but I did read the gallente suits are supposed to get a speed bonus instead of one of their current racial bonuses so that would even things out further.

Shield tanking yields 0 repping when it actually counts (while being shot).

The recharge delay on assault and logi suits mean that for most engagements the amount of shield repped is almost always going to be less than armor tanks.

The fact is most suits in this game cannot tank for very long unless they are fitting tank in every slot. When you factor in an armor tank doing 19% more damage output, and repping during the fight vs a shield fit's larger buffer, no damage mods and no reps during the fight who comes out ahead?

Shield tanking yields 0 repping when it actually counts (while being shot).

The recharge delay on assault and logi suits mean that for most engagements the amount of shield repped is almost always going to be less than armor tanks.

The fact is most suits in this game cannot tank for very long unless they are fitting tank in every slot. When you factor in an armor tank doing 19% more damage output, and repping during the fight vs a shield fit's larger buffer, no damage mods and no reps during the fight who comes out ahead?

Shield tanking yields 0 repping when it actually counts (while being shot).

The fact is most suits in this game cannot tank for very long unless they are fitting tank in every slot. When you factor in an armor tank doing 19% more damage output, and repping during the fight vs a shield fit's larger buffer, no damage mods and no reps during the fight who comes out ahead?

Shield tanking yields 0 repping when it actually counts (while being shot).

The recharge delay on assault and logi suits mean that for most engagements the amount of shield repped is almost always going to be less than armor tanks.

The fact is most suits in this game cannot tank for very long unless they are fitting tank in every slot. When you factor in an armor tank doing 19% more damage output, and repping during the fight vs a shield fit's larger buffer, no damage mods and no reps during the fight who comes out ahead?