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Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Bones McGavins wrote:

Kitten, pointing to a massive thread that nobody is going to read and then claiming it invalidated everyones point is dumb. If you yourself have the brain power and reasoning to know why we are wrong, you have the ability to sum it up. But so far you keep focusing just on the weaknesses of armor and not its strengths.

Plus why do you care if shield versus armor tanking is better? Why cant one be better than the other? Every player has option to do either or both. They are in different slots so they arent "competiting" with eachother. It would be like arguing that damage mods are better than kin cat mods. Who cares? They dont compete.

I will summarise. You will likely try to argue against this summary with an argument I have already countered in my thread, so it is still good reading material. I doubt you'll bother, though.

- Armour gets less HP than shields overall, unless they stack plates in which case they cannot rep and move at the speed of a heavy.
- Armour gets much much slower regen than shields, the constant regeneration does not compensate for this sufficiently.
- Having a logistics player use an armour rep prevents them from shooting their gun, which is significantly more useful.
- Armour moves slower than shields, making it easier to hit a player using armour
- A logistics repairer repairs at a similar rate to shield regen. Using the prototype focused rep in an example is extremely biased.

There are very few areas where armour beats shield. Can you give me an example of one?

At this point, you realise that your argument is weak/wrong, so you begin to say "who cares anyway?"
Straight

Believe it or not, I'd actually quite like to play a balanced game.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 294	Posted - 2013.06.11 19:25:00 - [1] - Quote Wait, what? What did you expect from these two new armors? 60 for complex is almost as much as a complex shield extender, did you honestly expect it to eb MORE than a shield extender? 45 + 2 regen is in between enhanced and complex shield regen AND gives you a small armor regen. Keep in mind, the difference between a small armor regen that can top you off after fights and no armor regen is huge. These things seem INCREDIBLY balanced. What were you expecting? More health than shield but no penalties too? Maybe, just to placate some weird feelings, they shouldve made then equal to the shield extenders but meh, they are pretty damned close. There is very little chance another 6 health from a module will be the difference between a shot killing you or not.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 295	Posted - 2013.06.11 19:39:00 - [2] - Quote Complex SHield mods are 54/11, how is 40/14 unbalanced? You get about the same health for 3 more PG and 14 less cpu. This allows you to be way more flexible with your builds. Hell, overall the fitting usage is lower on these mods. The 3 PG difference means up 21.4% of the PG usages, the 14 CPU usage makes up 29% of the CPU usage. So your total fitting is easier with these armor plates... I honestly dont see a problem at all and these seem perfect, if anything they are a bit OP since they allow such flexibiliy on builds. Gallante scouts seem way more viable now.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 295	Posted - 2013.06.11 19:44:00 - [3] - Quote Yes because you have the OPTION of going big on armor and getting a speed penalty, or you forsake that speed penalty and get about the same health. You have the option of getting regen with your armor as well, taking two slots instead of 1. Shield regen is delayed, armor is instant. Shield regen doesnt have repair tools to help it, Armor does. Honestly, you guys have no idea what you are talking about if you think these look UP. They seem absolutely amazing and open up a world of possibilities for my builds I never had before because I didnt want to sacrifice speed. Keep in mind they are also LOW slots, not high. What modules are competiting for your low slots? Shield extenders have to compete with damage mods. Come on, use your heads here. If you could stack armor mods with no penalty over shield you would because then you could fit damage mods too. Armor regen is different, and perhaps a bit worse, but it does have some advantages over shield regen. Any more loud, wrong opinions you guys want to yell at me?
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 298	Posted - 2013.06.11 19:52:00 - [4] - Quote Kitten Empress wrote: Bones McGavins wrote: Yes because you have the OPTION of going big on armor and getting a speed penalty, or you forsake that speed penalty and get about the same health. You have the option of getting regen with your armor as well, taking two slots instead of 1. Shield regen is delayed, armor is instant. Shield regen doesnt have repair tools to help it, Armor does. Honestly, you guys have no idea what you are talking about if you think these look UP. They seem absolutely amazing and open up a world of possibilities for my builds I never had before because I didnt want to sacrifice speed. Keep in mind they are also LOW slots, not high. What modules are competiting for your low slots? Shield extenders have to compete with damage mods. Come on, use your heads here. If you could stack armor mods with no penalty over shield you would because then you could fit damage mods too. Armor regen is different, and perhaps a bit worse, but it does have some advantages over shield regen. Any more loud, wrong opinions you guys want to yell at me? Never. EVER. Post again when it comes to balancing. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83983 There, now I don't need to write a threadnaught myself. Sure, we can have damage mods, and you can have speed mods. Also, that delay means nothing. So I get a head start of a few cycles aaaaaand... in one cycle the shield user blew me away. Except you're getting shot at, so your shield doesnt regen at all, and all it takes is me landing a small hit on you to keep that regen from ever happening. Armor gets to keep repping. Plus armor tankers can carry nanos that can self heal. (if you dont, and you armror tank, you are bad at armor tanking) Plus armor tankers can have a logi heal you for 100+hp/s. Plus, armor tankers can run to supply depots and swap up for full health. Armor rep isnt nearly as bad as you say. Passively shield is a bit better, yes, but if you take an active role in healing your armor you can do so very well, even supperior to shield. Be better at the game before talking about balance.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 298	Posted - 2013.06.11 19:58:00 - [5] - Quote Lol dude. Get a gun off the field? What are you talking about? Regen tanking isnt viable in DUST. ALL regen is too small to counter mroe than like 1 shot of damage with these kill times. The rep tools heals you AFTER the fight or AFTER you retreat, not during. My shield regen doesnt help when im getting shot at. It has a 4 second delay, 10 if it depletes, and the 20 or so a second doesnt negate the hundreds of damage per second coming my way. I could see your problems if regen tanking was viable for shield but not for armor. Hell the only real regen tanking you can do is with the triage nanohives giving 70+ a second as you stand on it. Thats as close as we come in DUST to being able to do so. And geuss what, its with armor tankers, not shield.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 299	Posted - 2013.06.11 20:18:00 - [6] - Quote Kitten, pointing to a massive thread that nobody is going to read and then claiming it invalidated everyones point is dumb. If you yourself have the brain power and reasoning to know why we are wrong, you have the ability to sum it up. But so far you keep focusing just on the weaknesses of armor and not its strengths. Plus why do you care if shield versus armor tanking is better? Every player has option to do either or both. They are in different slots so they arent "competiting" with eachother. It would be like arguing that damage mods are better than kin cat mods. Who cares? They dont compete.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 302	Posted - 2013.06.11 21:15:00 - [7] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Bones McGavins wrote: Kitten, pointing to a massive thread that nobody is going to read and then claiming it invalidated everyones point is dumb. If you yourself have the brain power and reasoning to know why we are wrong, you have the ability to sum it up. But so far you keep focusing just on the weaknesses of armor and not its strengths. Plus why do you care if shield versus armor tanking is better? Why cant one be better than the other? Every player has option to do either or both. They are in different slots so they arent "competiting" with eachother. It would be like arguing that damage mods are better than kin cat mods. Who cares? They dont compete. I will summarise. You will likely try to argue against this summary with an argument I have already countered in my thread, so it is still good reading material. I doubt you'll bother, though. - Armour gets less HP than shields overall, unless they stack plates in which case they cannot rep and move at the speed of a heavy. - Armour gets much much slower regen than shields, the constant regeneration does not compensate for this sufficiently. - Having a logistics player use an armour rep prevents them from shooting their gun, which is significantly more useful. - Armour moves slower than shields, making it easier to hit a player using armour - A logistics repairer repairs at a similar rate to shield regen. Using the prototype focused rep in an example is extremely biased. There are very few areas where armour beats shield. Can you give me an example of one? At this point, you realise that your argument is weak/wrong, so you begin to say "who cares anyway?" Believe it or not, I'd actually quite like to play a balanced game. Ok, the speed issue is legit, but that is removed from the equation with the new plates. Now you have shield and armor which are both very similar to eHP with no speed penalty. So the only issue left is regen. I dont disagree with anything you said, but I think you are overstating the importance. The reason is because you are talking about regen during battle. (Logi not being able to shoot etc.) First, shield regen does not start right away. 4 seconds. In that time, most fights are already decided. Either you are dead in 4 seconds, they are dead, or someone has retreated. Active regen of shield will almost never come into play. Even after the 4 second pass, you are looking at 2-3 more to survive a single shot based on your regen. That is not much help. It is out of combat regen that actually matters. How quickly can you get back into the fight. Here, passively shield is better than armor. However, repair tools or nanohives can make armor superior. You arent "taking a gun out of the fight" with repair tools, because you are already out of the fight. This isnt EVE or another RPG, you cant regen tank, kill times are too quick. If im armor tanking, im either a heavy with a logi, or I have a triage nanohive on me. This gets me back up to full health and back in the fight a lot quicker than shield regen. There are drawbacks sure, but it isnt as cut and dry as "the regen on shields is better" its just different, and lazier. So speed, the new plates solve. Regen isnt better or worse on either one, its simply different. If you have some numbers that dispute the claim that regen taking is worthless and is viable, then you may have a point. But I dont think thats the case.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 302	Posted - 2013.06.11 21:28:00 - [8] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Honestly Anita, As a Caldari Logi.. even if they removed the extender bonus it really wouldn't change that much. My shield tank build would still be more effective than armor tanking. I do agree that the racial bonuses need to be looked at and reworked, but the move speed penalty still continues to make armor tanking inferior. But the new armor dont have speed penalty and are pretty much equal to shield tanking. A little worse, but also a little less on the requirements and dont compete with damage mods. Plus, and heres the big kicker, introducing penalty-less armor mods just opens up these mods to players who never would have used them before. Your caldari logi can now tank BOTH armor and shield without worrying about speed. The debate of armor versus shield tanking seems relatively pointless since most suits can do some of both. The big questions are shield tanking versus damage mods and armor tanking versus speed tanking. Right now it seems like shield tanking is a bit OP compared to damage mods, but not crazy. But speed tanking is way OP compared to armor tanking. Thats why you dont see armor a lot, it has very little to do with the balance between shield and armor.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 305	Posted - 2013.06.11 21:48:00 - [9] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Bones McGavins wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Honestly Anita, As a Caldari Logi.. even if they removed the extender bonus it really wouldn't change that much. My shield tank build would still be more effective than armor tanking. I do agree that the racial bonuses need to be looked at and reworked, but the move speed penalty still continues to make armor tanking inferior. But the new armor dont have speed penalty and are pretty much equal to shield tanking. A little worse, but also a little less on the requirements and dont compete with damage mods. Plus, and heres the big kicker, introducing penalty-less armor mods just opens up these mods to players who never would have used them before. Your caldari logi can now tank BOTH armor and shield without worrying about speed. The debate of armor versus shield tanking seems relatively pointless since most suits can do some of both. The big questions are shield tanking versus damage mods and armor tanking versus speed tanking. Right now it seems like shield tanking is a bit OP compared to damage mods, but not crazy. But speed tanking is way OP compared to armor tanking. Thats why you dont see armor a lot, it has very little to do with the balance between shield and armor. So what you're saying then is... are your 2-3 damage mods worth my being able to shield regen 30hp/s. I guess we'll find out when 1.2 drops! Thats exactly the question, really. I predict it depends on play style, tbh. Your 30hp/s doesnt kick in for 4 seconds. I use scramble rifles and try to land a charge shot from mid range to start the fight, if I miss, Ill likely fall back behind cover and wait for cooldown. In close quarters, i switch to my pistol and aim for the head for very quick kills. If I miss all my pistol shots, well im in trouble. If I land even 1, im likely in good spot to switch back to the rifle and spam at the body for a kill before i overheat. In either case, its likely one way or another, the fight is decided by the time your regen kicks in. So for me, the damage mod does help more than regen likely will. I can see for others, it not being the case.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 306	Posted - 2013.06.11 22:05:00 - [10] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Yes. Out of combat regen matters a lot more - and shields are superior here. A shield tanker can have 25-30 HP/s shield regeneration passively with no assistance. An armour tanker gets half that number, if even that. A pair of complex repairers repair at 12.5 HP/s. This is assuming the armour tanker gives up two slots, a chunk of SP, and a lot of fitting resources. A remote armour repairer, which requires another player and isn't nearly as reliable as shield regen, regens at a very similar rate. It also requires that a player give up an equipment slot and fitting resources. Well it honestly seems like this comes down to the crux of our disagreement. In everything else, we can pretty much agree on. It comes to out of combat regen, and how much that matters and which has an advantage. Personally, I find logis with repair tools or nanohives with repair to be much better than shield regen. Its quicker. I can drop a nano pre-combat and simply fall back behind that wall and start instantly healing. I cant do that with shield, and not as quickly either. I can see the strengths of shield regen, but I just dont think its completely valid to say its 100% superior. Its situational. Is it easier? Yes. Does it take less to get to a decent rate, yes (it takes nothing). But is it overall better? I dont think so. I dont think either is better, they are different, for different play styles. If they were equal in all senses, what would the point of having both be? Solo play, without wanting to rely on nanohives as an equipment slot, shields will almost always be better. But team play or solo with nanos and its no where near as cut and dry. As much as it "takes another player" to rep you, its also free WP for your squad, leading to an orbital that shield regen doesnt have. Theres a lot of factors that play into overall effectiveness, and I dont feel shield is automatically better in all cases. Yes, with speed penalties, armor was inferior. But the new mods seem to help fix that. Plus, now one of the advantages to armor tanking is versatility. You have choices now. eHP similar to shield but without rep, eHp less than shield but with minimal rep, eHP greater than shield but no rep and speed penalty. I can see each of those, or even combinations of those, being used for different playstyles.

Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 307	Posted - 2013.06.11 22:11:00 - [11] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: These plates are more useful to shield tankers than armor tankers, that's why you have all these scrubs without a clue about the problems with armor tanking, and how these don't address them, coming in here saying how awesome these new plates are. Thanks CCP, great job! Again, armor tanking versus shield tanking doesnt matter, at all. You can do one or both. If you have some weird philishophical reason you NEED to armor tank and therefore it NEEDS to be the same as shield in all sense, well I'm sorry. There is no reason the two tanking need to fulfill similar roles. Armor tanking can be worse in a lot of ways that shield tanking, it doesnt make any balance bad. Explain to me why you need your build to revolve around armor tanking? To clearify, I dont get why its an "us versus them." What makes someone a shield tanker or an armor tanker? Why are they exclusive things? So your fit has more low slots? Why did you pick that fit to begin with? If it was to get good eHP with speed penalty and repair penalty, cool. If not...then why didnt you pick a suit with more high slots than low? Balance doesnt mean everything does the same thing. There is zero reason to view armor tanking as in competition with shield tanking, they go in different slots. Itd be like me complaining my pistol doesnt have the range as my rifle.