DUST Search - Ferroscale and Reactive plates stats!

Cross Atu wrote:

So assuming these actually turn out to be final values (look at 1:08), there are a few things to be said and a couple to be asked as well.

First current plates, they still need a balance pass to enhance their internal balance (from base to complex within the line) and their contextual balance (as compared with shields, after all even if the new plates bring more parity to the armor line as a whole they do nothing to change the balance issues with the current plates).

Second Ferroscale Plates, text in the video is a bit grainy for me but it looks very much like these will be low slot shield mods with 6 less HP per mod and higher fitting requirements than the current complex plates. They do maintain the higher load on PG as opposed to CPU when compared with shields (a good thing IMO since it keeps the lines diverse) but this puts armor tank in an even tighter bind when it comes to PG. The new plates as shown in the video do seem to be a boon for scouts but I wonder about the comparative fitting numbers both between Complex Plates/Complex Ferroscale and between Complex Ferroscale/Complex Extenders.

The other aspect here is base tank between armor vs shields derived from slot layout, and suit/racial bonuses.
Right now outside of the Amarr Logi there's essentially no bonus to armor tank from racial skills, the only arguable exception being the +1 HP/s from the proto Logi role bonus. This means in essence that for everyone not playing Logi the new plates do nothing to increase the validity of an armor tank, further this omission of armor tank skill buffs on armor related racial suits will push any "slayers" who want to armor tank into a position of looking to the Logi line more favorably than the Assault.
There are already generally unfounded cries to nerf the Logi due to the underwhelming racial/proto skills possessed by the Assault line, we need less of this skill buff bias not more.

There is a counter point, armor tankers can now stack the 60HP plates in low slots and stack damage mods in the highs, but while this is a good balancing element between the mods it once again distorts under the weight of suit skill buffs as due to the underwhelming Assault suit buffs many 'slayers' may now look on the Gal Logi suit as the new Cal Logi 'slayer' fit. Additional counter point would be the Min Assault built in rep of 1 HP/s, this will be a net win for the Minmatar Assault suits.

Reactive Plates These plates sport the new 'higher than Complex Plates' fittings costs of 36 CPU/15 PG.
For that price you get 45 HP (20 HP less than a basic plate with 1% less speed reduction) 2 HP/s (the value of a basic repper mod). Total cost for those two items 30 CPU/2 PG, that's 6 CPU/13PG more spent to in essence save one low slot.
Assuming the rep from these plates is buffed by the Amarr Logi racial bonus this may help that suit out a little bit but the buff is rather minimal.

The more fittings cost for free slots idea is a novel concept and I actual like it for flavor and flex however I'm not sure how this applies to current suits. On balance the Reactive plates with their minimal speed debuff and their 2-for-1 slot count may be a net gain for the Assault suits as it would allow them some on board reps, a bit more HP and not hit their speed that much, while leaving some slots free for other things like Regulators, Kinetic Catalyzes, et al. If combined with a bit more 'gank' from some of the Assault skill buffs, or some armor specific Assault skill buffs on the Amarr/Gallente suits this could help even the field nicely. Also the speed penilty on these plates is low enough for some scout builds to adopt the use of one for on board reps, or for Heavies in some roles/squad configurations to really benefit.
All in all the Reactive Plates seem to be the big winner in the new changes with the single class gaining the least utility from them being the Logi who already have on board reps via skills, will have fewer reps to give out as self rep becomes more common and who (outside the Gal Logi) won't have the slots + PG to really make significant use of them for the most part.

Final thoughts the new plates seem like good additions and they'll help some of the problem aspects present but other changes are most certainly needed to bring armor/shields into balance. Further care must be taken not to have the new mods create another misplaced wave of nerf threads as racial skills distort overall game effects.

That's my current analysis assuming that the stats in the video turn out to be the same stats upon release of the new mods.

0.02 ISK
Cross


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1135	Posted - 2013.06.11 22:04:00 - [1] - Quote ladwar wrote: Kitten Empress wrote: ladwar wrote: Kitten Empress wrote: ladwar wrote: I did the math a little while ago. and meh its balance. 5 complex reactive plates =225 HP 10hp per second with 10%(I didn't do the math but im guessing it lower with penalties for stacking) speed penalty. so two complex 115=230 hp with 2 complex repairers for 10hp you get more speed penalty. but with even a slight bonus to either hp or repair rates they are more powerful. I used 50 hp with 3hp repaired and you get 250hp with 15 hps with less speed penalty and more hp then a fit of 2 complex plates with 3 repairers. so just something different to think about for you armor guys. So armor getting less eHP and less recharge = balanced? Do you people even think? didn't even care to balance vs shields because that's a different issue with all the modules of one type vs another type and that's about weighing pros and cons. besides armor has the repair tools. shields have one LLAV that's difficult to use. IMO shields vs armor is balanced due to pros and cons and equipment to deal/help with them. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83983 as you can see I haven't made a post on there or even read a lick of it. I don't care that about the imbalance between shields and armor in infantry. the new modules are balanced within their type(armor infantry modules) and I dare you to prove me wrong and I won't even try to balance them out of their class because that makes no sense. Please show me with numbers how the current armor plate line is properly balanced internally, note not against the new mods, just the current line of plates internally. Further when providing comments on overall fittings and balance between new mods and current mods please include slots and CPU/PG costs to attain each. I point this out because, while I admittedly haven't had the chance to go over them in as much detail as I want yet, the fittings costs seem to be the real stumbling block... tho I suppose they might be less of an issue if you're not interested in considering their usefulness or balance implications game wide and are only trying to do a direct comparison of mods internal to the armor line. Even so I'd like to see your break down with those fittings numbers included. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1135	Posted - 2013.06.11 22:05:00 - [2] - Quote My first thoughts from a related thread on this subject. Cross Atu wrote: So assuming these actually turn out to be final values (look at 1:08), there are a few things to be said and a couple to be asked as well. First current plates, they still need a balance pass to enhance their internal balance (from base to complex within the line) and their contextual balance (as compared with shields, after all even if the new plates bring more parity to the armor line as a whole they do nothing to change the balance issues with the current plates). Second Ferroscale Plates, text in the video is a bit grainy for me but it looks very much like these will be low slot shield mods with 6 less HP per mod and higher fitting requirements than the current complex plates. They do maintain the higher load on PG as opposed to CPU when compared with shields (a good thing IMO since it keeps the lines diverse) but this puts armor tank in an even tighter bind when it comes to PG. The new plates as shown in the video do seem to be a boon for scouts but I wonder about the comparative fitting numbers both between Complex Plates/Complex Ferroscale and between Complex Ferroscale/Complex Extenders. The other aspect here is base tank between armor vs shields derived from slot layout, and suit/racial bonuses. Right now outside of the Amarr Logi there's essentially no bonus to armor tank from racial skills, the only arguable exception being the +1 HP/s from the proto Logi role bonus. This means in essence that for everyone not playing Logi the new plates do nothing to increase the validity of an armor tank, further this omission of armor tank skill buffs on armor related racial suits will push any "slayers" who want to armor tank into a position of looking to the Logi line more favorably than the Assault. There are already generally unfounded cries to nerf the Logi due to the underwhelming racial/proto skills possessed by the Assault line, we need less of this skill buff bias not more. There is a counter point, armor tankers can now stack the 60HP plates in low slots and stack damage mods in the highs, but while this is a good balancing element between the mods it once again distorts under the weight of suit skill buffs as due to the underwhelming Assault suit buffs many 'slayers' may now look on the Gal Logi suit as the new Cal Logi 'slayer' fit. Additional counter point would be the Min Assault built in rep of 1 HP/s, this will be a net win for the Minmatar Assault suits. Reactive Plates These plates sport the new 'higher than Complex Plates' fittings costs of 36 CPU/15 PG. For that price you get 45 HP (20 HP less than a basic plate with 1% less speed reduction) 2 HP/s (the value of a basic repper mod). Total cost for those two items 30 CPU/2 PG, that's 6 CPU/13PG more spent to in essence save one low slot. Assuming the rep from these plates is buffed by the Amarr Logi racial bonus this may help that suit out a little bit but the buff is rather minimal. The more fittings cost for free slots idea is a novel concept and I actual like it for flavor and flex however I'm not sure how this applies to current suits. On balance the Reactive plates with their minimal speed debuff and their 2-for-1 slot count may be a net gain for the Assault suits as it would allow them some on board reps, a bit more HP and not hit their speed that much, while leaving some slots free for other things like Regulators, Kinetic Catalyzes, et al. If combined with a bit more 'gank' from some of the Assault skill buffs, or some armor specific Assault skill buffs on the Amarr/Gallente suits this could help even the field nicely. Also the speed penilty on these plates is low enough for some scout builds to adopt the use of one for on board reps, or for Heavies in some roles/squad configurations to really benefit. All in all the Reactive Plates seem to be the big winner in the new changes with the single class gaining the least utility from them being the Logi who already have on board reps via skills, will have fewer reps to give out as self rep becomes more common and who (outside the Gal Logi) won't have the slots + PG to really make significant use of them for the most part. Final thoughts the new plates seem like good additions and they'll help some of the problem aspects present but other changes are most certainly needed to bring armor/shields into balance. Further care must be taken not to have the new mods create another misplaced wave of nerf threads as racial skills distort overall game effects. That's my current analysis assuming that the stats in the video turn out to be the same stats upon release of the new mods. 0.02 ISK Cross