btw was I the only one that seen the commando ak. 0
shields 392 and 312 armor(shields had a complex extender) 2 high slots and 1 low slot 1 equipment slot no grenades.

Of course I mean armor vs shield balancing.
Do I really need to spell it out?

I said this in another thread, but it's starting to look like they're bringing things in pre-nerfed just to eliminate the middle man.

so you can't prove me wrong, thank you and have a nice day. the imbalance between shields and armor is totally different matter that I am not touching.

Armor tanking has advantages in EVE that do not exist in Dust. Shield tanking in EVE has drawbacks that do not exist in Dust.

Personally I think CCP needs to go back to the drawing board with their tanking concept, because EVE mechanics do not easily fit in an FPS, certainly not in present-day Dust.

Kitten, pointing to a massive thread that nobody is going to read and then claiming it invalidated everyones point is dumb. If you yourself have the brain power and reasoning to know why we are wrong, you have the ability to sum it up. But so far you keep focusing just on the weaknesses of armor and not its strengths.

Plus why do you care if shield versus armor tanking is better? Why cant one be better than the other? Every player has option to do either or both. They are in different slots so they arent "competiting" with eachother. It would be like arguing that damage mods are better than kin cat mods. Who cares? They dont compete.

Wait, what? What did you expect from these two new armors? 60 for complex is almost as much as a complex shield extender, did you honestly expect it to eb MORE than a shield extender? 45 + 2 regen is in between enhanced and complex shield regen AND gives you a small armor regen. Keep in mind, the difference between a small armor regen that can top you off after fights and no armor regen is huge.

These things seem INCREDIBLY balanced. What were you expecting? More health than shield but no penalties too? Maybe, just to placate some weird feelings, they shouldve made then equal to the shield extenders but meh, they are pretty damned close. There is very little chance another 6 health from a module will be the difference between a shot killing you or not.

There is no downside to running shield extenders, recharger, or regulators - zero downside.

None.

Zip.

Zilch.

Nada.

SUCH INCREDIBLE BALANCE!

link please?

Are they bringing stuff in pre-nerfed to cut out the middle man?

Kitten, pointing to a massive thread that nobody is going to read and then claiming it invalidated everyones point is dumb. If you yourself have the brain power and reasoning to know why we are wrong, you have the ability to sum it up. But so far you keep focusing just on the weaknesses of armor and not its strengths.

Plus why do you care if shield versus armor tanking is better? Why cant one be better than the other? Every player has option to do either or both. They are in different slots so they arent "competiting" with eachother. It would be like arguing that damage mods are better than kin cat mods. Who cares? They dont compete.

I do agree that it appears that armor plates are balanced with eachother, that does seem legit to me.

So they need to find a good ratio of EHP that armor should have vs. shields then, and add in a penalty to shields or reduce the penalty to armor.

Seems like EHP on armor should be ~1.5 that of shields, but at this point it really isn't, not without a severe movement speed penalty.

I don't know anyone who likes armor tanking, ive never met a single person who even thought it was viable. Then again, I don't know many people who like dying over and over either.. so... yeah

Maybe we need to remove and rework remote rep tools if that's what holding back armor tanking, cause its not really an excuse, and I don't know anyone who is willing to do it outside of the newberry with no gun game in pub matches.

No one has the time to use a rep tool in PC, its constant action. You can't rely on another person to repair your armor in competitive play.

Shield tanking vs. armor tanking needs to be balanced purely by repair rate and effective hp. Then, penalties between shield extenders and armor plates need to be balanced against each other, separately from EHP. (I would prefer removing penalties altogether but I know some of you seem to adore module penalties).

Because everytime I sum it up, people start saying wrong things.
You just can't sum it all up, its too long.
Every point has reasoning, because on the surface it might sound good, but when you actually crunch the numbers shield wins every time.
If you don't feel like reading a good and long explanation that disproves any "advantage" armor has, then you have no say in balancing.
Because you're gonig to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

"Plus why do you care if shield versus armor tanking is better? Why cant one be better than the other? Every player has option to do either or both. They are in different slots so they arent "competiting" with eachother. It would be like arguing that damage mods are better than kin cat mods. Who cares? They dont compete."

There is a whole race called Gallente that relies on armor tanking.
Its currently the most useless race.
You know why?

I do agree that it appears that armor plates are balanced with eachother, that does seem legit to me.

So they need to find a good ratio of EHP that armor should have vs. shields then, and add in a penalty to shields or reduce the penalty to armor.

Seems like EHP on armor should be ~1.5 that of shields, but at this point it really isn't, not without a severe movement speed penalty.

I don't know anyone who likes armor tanking, ive never met a single person who even thought it was viable. Then again, I don't know many people who like dying over and over either.. so... yeah

Maybe we need to remove and rework remote rep tools if that's what holding back armor tanking, cause its not really an excuse, and I don't know anyone who is willing to do it outside of the newberry with no gun game in pub matches.

No one has the time to use a rep tool in PC, its constant action. You can't rely on another person to repair your armor in competitive play.

Shield tanking vs. armor tanking needs to be balanced purely by repair rate and effective hp. Then, penalties between shield extenders and armor plates need to be balanced against each other, separately from EHP. (I would prefer removing penalties altogether but I know some of you seem to adore module penalties).

I know why, because armor repairs at the speed of roadkill and the extenders for it make you move even slower. The speed debuff should either be racial or suit based - as in heavy's don't get a debuff or Gallente doesn't or something.

Also, if they ever get around to putting a downside on shield tanking, the scout should be the suit that has zero downside...

Like, you can make the modules work on every suit, but make them work more better-er on the suit they're intended for.

Why do they insist upon giving armor tanking a negative movement speed when it is the least useful tank in the game? Why make it even less useful?


Incomprehensible...

Look, its not that shields suck more than Armor... Its just. "Caldari Logis". And switching the shield bonus to Assault Caldari wont remedy it. There just needs to be a whole different bonus altogether.

I have no issue with the movement speed. Armour is IMO a great tank, better than those shield pussies who think they're all that.

At least Gallente scouts don't have to resort to shields anymore, thanks to ferroscale plates.

The upside to a scout is supposed to be hit and run, get out of battle, get your shields back up, and go back in shooting.
Unfortunately, since your lowslots are all eaten up by plates, you can't stack repair modules - and even if you did it still takes forever for them to regen, where as a regulator and extender combo occupy opposite slots allowing for better min/max capabilities.

At least Gallente scouts don't have to resort to shields anymore, thanks to ferroscale plates.

Shields need to give their user a larger scan signature and larger hitbox. Armor should affect max stamina and stamina regen rate.

While i'm okay with scan profile, you can't really mess with the hit boxes in this game or it'll go really bad really quick. hit boxes work very differently in eve, and it works, but in an fps hitboxes are everything.

I feel like the better way to do it would be to have armor plates affect sprint speed and stamina only, leave the regen rate in.
A profile penalty could work for shield extenders as long as shield tanking scouts get a significant bonus to profile dampening modules to help offset the penalty and still allow then to be viable.

While i'm okay with scan profile, you can't really mess with the hit boxes in this game or it'll go really bad really quick. hit boxes work very differently in eve, and it works, but in an fps hitboxes are everything.

I feel like the better way to do it would be to have armor plates affect sprint speed and stamina only, leave the regen rate in.
A profile penalty could work for shield extenders as long as shield tanking scouts get a significant bonus to profile dampening modules to help offset the penalty and still allow then to be viable.

Kitten, pointing to a massive thread that nobody is going to read and then claiming it invalidated everyones point is dumb. If you yourself have the brain power and reasoning to know why we are wrong, you have the ability to sum it up. But so far you keep focusing just on the weaknesses of armor and not its strengths.

Plus why do you care if shield versus armor tanking is better? Why cant one be better than the other? Every player has option to do either or both. They are in different slots so they arent "competiting" with eachother. It would be like arguing that damage mods are better than kin cat mods. Who cares? They dont compete.

I will summarise. You will likely try to argue against this summary with an argument I have already countered in my thread, so it is still good reading material. I doubt you'll bother, though.

- Armour gets less HP than shields overall, unless they stack plates in which case they cannot rep and move at the speed of a heavy.
- Armour gets much much slower regen than shields, the constant regeneration does not compensate for this sufficiently.
- Having a logistics player use an armour rep prevents them from shooting their gun, which is significantly more useful.
- Armour moves slower than shields, making it easier to hit a player using armour
- A logistics repairer repairs at a similar rate to shield regen. Using the prototype focused rep in an example is extremely biased.

There are very few areas where armour beats shield. Can you give me an example of one?


At this point, you realise that your argument is weak/wrong, so you begin to say "who cares anyway?"

Believe it or not, I'd actually quite like to play a balanced game.