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Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:12:00 - [331] - Quote Larheon 25% + 25% = 50% 15% regen and repair I'm just listing a couple of examples and like a **** you can't even do the basic Maths required. This is why I come to the forums. In the hope that MAYBE CCP might finish up with a decent game. @mike, Snakes on my flist, :) Anyone else talks to me like that they usually get ignored (see Lurchasarus)
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:17:00 - [332] - Quote Just to throw in a quick fact. Guild Wars2 is a RPG and it has PVP that doesn't rely on stats & gear. Why Dust 514, that is a PVP FPS, wants to rely so much on stats & gear while Guild Wars is going the other way around? Why Guild Wars 2 understand the stupidity of stats & gear in a PVP game and Dust doesn't?
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 153	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:18:00 - [333] - Quote Heh. Erm, sadly, no. Let's say your dropsuit has equal amounts shield and armor. 25% boost to shield = 12.5% boost to EHP. 25% boost to armor = 12.5% boost to EHP. Add them up... 25%. I think I can do simple statistics, let alone basic maths :) No, really, even if they had 50% more HP from skills, I'd still be confident of killing them. They can't shoot what they can't see, and if I'm behind them, they can't see me.
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:38:00 - [334] - Quote Yeah, the regen doesn't count for anything. Scouts never get to use their full shield allowance two or 3 time Ima fight because it comes bak so fast. Never ever. If you want to be statistics man, then DO correct me. However if your going to ignore the other areas I mentioned that's fine too. Gz. The % are huge regardless of your opinion. The "if they don't see me" argument is just lol funny again. This is why I come to these forums. To laugh at people who think they're ninjas. Btw I did bother to do some Maths with it in another post (probably same error) but the % just stack until your so much better than another militia kitted char.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 153	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:46:00 - [335] - Quote The regen DOESN'T count for anything, and it requires a break between getting hit before starting up. I don't see how you've not realised this. I did correct you, but please, go on. What did I miss? So far I've addressed most, if not all, your concerns. I've addressed the balance issues you've brought up, I've addressed the SP advantage, I've addressed gear advantage, I've addressed... pretty much everything. I don't think I'm a ninja. Sometimes they see me coming, sometimes they don't. I run behind an obstacle then try to bluff or double bluff. Sometimes I end up behind their back, sometimes I end up staring down the barrel of a HMG. But I do try. I can address the SP and gear balance issue just by thinking "what can I do that they won't expect". It's really very simple. p.s. thanks for the insults. It's nice to be insulted after trying to be civil. Especially when you're wrong and I'm right.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:52:00 - [336] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: Right, but that's pretty standard in FPS. A miss is a miss. Now how is 30% damage and 50% health not a massive advantage? My original point was that you guys focused on these little examples. Which you are. And not the fact that no-one gives a decent, explaination. I'm quite beyond caring. Wouldnt call it a massive advanatage tbh It defo no worse than having a heli gun/cruise missile and nuke which basically shows where everyone is in the map and wtfpwns everything on the field of play with no way of killing the guy while he wins the game on his own The beta we are all skilling at 4times the usual rate So release we will be doing it 4times less so 25k in SP for every 100k in the beta, so the margins between players are going to be alot less overall than they are now
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.08.02 18:14:00 - [337] - Quote Larheon I agree your right about the %. The trouble is your not adding it ALL up. But like I say. I'm not fussed. Your right about the % the skills give you. But your still focusing on 3 little example I posted in answer to why I don't bother with much thought these days on Dust. And why I cba to play, because I don't find anyone a challenge on the EU servers in general (snake is the only guy I come across). Apologies if your butthurt, but you are proving my original point. (can you post in the Feedback thread about SP balance please, no-one else pointed that error out. While I may disagree with you on a great deal of things, atleast your posts usually add something to a thread) @ Snake I think while the speed the gap appears will be slower, I think a month or 2 from release there will be new players signing up. Think "own IGN nubs weekend" but lasting longer. Edit: Ask Proto or some other top boy if regen/repairs matter. That's actually very relevant to strafe speed.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 153	Posted - 2012.08.02 18:27:00 - [338] - Quote Your problem with the game is that people turn around and say things are balanced when you don't think they are. Is that it? Is your problem with the community, and NOT the game (or CCP)? I'm not butthurt, I'm trying to understand your points. AFAIK, some of your concerns have come through misunderstandings and frustrations. Some things you're concerned about, such as webbing (and other such features to come in), may not have the effect you think they might have, or may be easily countered. Maybe you don't like the direction the game is going in, maybe you don't like what a lot of players want to happen. All I can say is, wait until the next build, or wait until these features come out. It's up to CCP to develop this game well, and if they don't... Well, punish them by not playing. However, if it's the community that's annoying you... Learn to be civil and just ignore them.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 153	Posted - 2012.08.02 18:28:00 - [339] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: Edit: Ask Proto or some other top boy if regen/repairs matter. That's actually very relevant to strafe speed. I strafe pretty much all the time. The only time I see shield regen come into effect (maybe one burst, or two) is if they're reloading. That gives me, maybe an extra 70-80 health. That's less than two shots from a creodron, three from a Duvolle.
testguy242 44	Posted - 2012.08.02 18:40:00 - [340] - Quote Templar Two wrote: Just to throw in a quick fact. Guild Wars2 is a RPG and it has PVP that doesn't rely on stats & gear. Why Dust 514, that is a PVP FPS, wants to rely so much on stats & gear while Guild Wars is going the other way around? Why Guild Wars 2 understand the stupidity of stats & gear in a PVP game and Dust doesn't? You need to throw out any idea of what PvP is like in other games. EVE does not have balanced 5v5 or 12v12 or whatever arena-style combat. It has warfare. If one side has more money, more members, more skill points, etc, it will probably win and that's perfectly okay because it makes sense. There is no enforced balance. DUST will probably be the same way. Don't think matches, think unrestricted warfare.

Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.08.02 19:16:00 - [341] - Quote Larheon, testguy's post is another perfect example... Can you see why I get so frustrated with people seeming to think this will be EvE onfoot The only posts I get feisty in are about game mechanics. The basic parts of the FPS. Edit: my point isn't clear... Because "normal PvP FPS rules won't apply" I a bad reason the make the gameplay dull (IMHO caveat)
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 153	Posted - 2012.08.02 20:38:00 - [342] - Quote I can see why you would get frustrated, but then again, I can also see testguy's point. This is an extension of EVE online, which is reputed to be one of the most ruthless games of the last decade. Ruthless not due to mechanics (although they help), but what goes. People get blown up in one of the busiest market hubs, which also happens to be in highsec, all the time. I've heard of losses up to 40 billion isk. I've heard of one guy losing 120 PLEX (each costs $19.99, or 500 million in game), then being ransomed them. As DUST will be an extension of the EVE universe, I can't see how fairness would come into play here. But, I agree, the basic FPS mechanics have to be in. Feel, recoil, damage, etc, need to be balanced and feel right for the game to be fun. I think CCP are getting close, but are on the right track.
Aldz D Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 49	Posted - 2012.08.02 20:44:00 - [343] - Quote @_@ Seriously....by looking at you guys responding to his post wtf.......he was sayin that this game is bulky and a bit slow and u say to him go back to cod? GO BACK TO COD seriously.............you guys talkin like and responding like this,,,,,,,you are very very,,,,,,,,dimwitted....... 1.did he talked about killstreaks? NOPE 2.did he talked about one hit commando knife lounge?NOPE 3.did he even mention cod on his post? NOPE(but still people say "go back to cod" lmfao) 4.is call of duty the only shooter in the ps3?NOPE 5.would even 90% of the cod community play this battlefield/halo esque type of game even though they are not experience on open and wide environment with vehicular combat? NOPE so stop saying to go back to cod even though u guys don't even have a knowledge of knowing there are other shooters without even understanding his post...... this 2nd state of the beta as what they said are hell for new players right now cuz they have been left out and have not started leveling yet and upgrading their skill builds....... beta is 70%GUNS,30%SKILL
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.02 20:52:00 - [344] - Quote It's fine to make Dust a "anything goes" game. The general game mechanics of offering contracts in null sec, consumable weapons, eventual 1v1 arena combat, (that supposedly ppl can wager on) I'm even ok with corps having advantages because they have more money to throw into a battle in null sec, all that helps to accomplish this, but this is separate from the FPS mechanics. My problem is more with the ppl that deny the imbalance exists, more so than the imbalance itself. I'm actually one of the guys that's ok with imbalance as long as it's explained well by CCP. Imbalance should not exist in High Sec, should be managed in Low Sec, and can be left relatively untouched in Null Sec. (as long as it's not gamebreaking) The strafe argument, weapon balancing argument, etc, is one about FPS mechanics and making this game a good shooter. It has nothing to do with the general mechanics involved in making Dust a "deeper" gaming experience.
ReGnUm DEl Doomheim 622	Posted - 2012.08.02 21:05:00 - [345] - Quote Templar Two wrote: FPS with low TTK, near OHK, are the most difficult FPS. Being able to survive more bullets essential grants you 1 thing in FPS: more time to think. The more time to think you have while being shot the easier the game because you can escape that situation Bunny Hopping is only possible in FPS that have very high TTK: if I try to bunny hop in KZ I die, no way I can make silly COD 360 or Halo jumping! I am all for FPS with a very low TTK but still Dust 514 isn't' this FPS and I accept it, but do not advertise it as a very demanding FPS with emphasis of tactics because it has little. Want tactics: give me a command wheel as in Rainbow Six or Ghost Recon (not Future Soldier) or even BF3. I requested that for non mic players, which are the majority in FPS, and I was ignored. WRONG AGAIN, its just not your day Noc Furthermore, HALO JUMPING in gun battles is wide miss conception among many FPSers Many halo pros, I mean real pros ie paid to play, never bunny hopped. Simple reason, when you do hop your ability to strafe becomes impossible. Therefore, any enemy can easily predict or movement and finish you. Bunny hopping was only used in three key areas A. Finish shot, when you where on or fourth shot, or the enemy was no shields B. Jumping into cover. IE, losing a gun fight, so you decide to jump into a wall C. HALO Quick Scopes, classic jump zoom and Headshot... not easy to do, Noc I know you mean well and stuff. From my experience with competitive BF3, I find Tank drivers have a type of Tunnel vision when it comes to shooting stuff
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 153	Posted - 2012.08.02 21:12:00 - [346] - Quote Mike - what's your position in the strafe argument? I think it's fine where it is. Tony has been arguing for a buff to previous levels. Also, I think that highsec, any imbalance caused by gear will be balanced out. It will become wholly unprofitable to use advanced or higher gear in highsec, as the cost (if you die, which you will) will be too high. That pretty much eliminates any gear imbalance. Likewise, any vehicles will be sparsely used. It just won't be that profitable to use much in highsec. It will be used mostly for tutorials, as players running around in militia gear (or BPO gear) to get some easy SP at little to no cost. We're gaining isk and SP at an increased rate in the beta, so when the game gets released...
Crimson MoonV Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 658	Posted - 2012.08.02 21:16:00 - [347] - Quote ReGnUm DEl wrote: Templar Two wrote: FPS with low TTK, near OHK, are the most difficult FPS. Being able to survive more bullets essential grants you 1 thing in FPS: more time to think. The more time to think you have while being shot the easier the game because you can escape that situation Bunny Hopping is only possible in FPS that have very high TTK: if I try to bunny hop in KZ I die, no way I can make silly COD 360 or Halo jumping! I am all for FPS with a very low TTK but still Dust 514 isn't' this FPS and I accept it, but do not advertise it as a very demanding FPS with emphasis of tactics because it has little. Want tactics: give me a command wheel as in Rainbow Six or Ghost Recon (not Future Soldier) or even BF3. I requested that for non mic players, which are the majority in FPS, and I was ignored. WRONG AGAIN, its just not your day Noc Couldn't be more wrong. FPS with low TTK are incredibly easy if you have gun game.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.02 21:25:00 - [348] - Quote Laheon wrote: Mike - what's your position in the strafe argument? I think it's fine where it is. Tony has been arguing for a buff to previous levels. Also, I think that highsec, any imbalance caused by gear will be balanced out. It will become wholly unprofitable to use advanced or higher gear in highsec, as the cost (if you die, which you will) will be too high. That pretty much eliminates any gear imbalance. Likewise, any vehicles will be sparsely used. It just won't be that profitable to use much in highsec. It will be used mostly for tutorials, as players running around in militia gear (or BPO gear) to get some easy SP at little to no cost. We're gaining isk and SP at an increased rate in the beta, so when the game gets released... I think the strafe speed should be buffed. If not back to original levels, at least somewhere between now and then. I don't think the problems last build were with the strafe speed by itself. It was the fact that there was fast strafe speed along with HORRIFIC framerate and hit detection. That is a bad combo. The hit detection has gotten better, but still needs a little work. But as long as it continues to improve, the higher strafe speed will not be a too much of a problem for those that can aim. In fact, I would say that for a game with such a huge imbalance in character stats between a newb with under 1mil SP and a vet with 20mil SP, the higher strafe speed would be the only thing that gives a good newb a fighting chance against a vet. It would be balanced because the good newb could use lots of strafing and dancing and great aim, to counter the vets huge HP and dmg output advantage.
xprotoman23 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1452	Posted - 2012.08.03 00:59:00 - [349] - Quote played with a group of PUGS on defense today. needless to say none of them could get over 5 kills. They were spawn camped to death by a sagaris and a kid hiding up on a tower in a dropship. I told them to alternate between A+B but they couldn't do that. I still went 33/1 though. This game is either unbalanced or people are just dumb.
Mcfons knapperd Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 41	Posted - 2012.08.03 01:02:00 - [350] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: xprotoman23 wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: Sojuro Ryo wrote: Skillup ? I am skilled up? I have like 12 million SP. The problem is not me. The problem is what this game will look like to people thinking about playing the game. There is nothing that I can spec into to fix the bluky strafe speed mechanics. If the game is bulky with boring shooting mechanics people won't play it. So far I have never gotten into one gun fight that got my adrenaline going or afterwards I was think "that was epic". Please people don't try and make this about me. This about the future of dust. last build was for strafers but people cried They need to go back to CoD then. Joking aside people want this game to be complex and deep but they want the game mechanics to be bulky and simple. It makes no sense. Bud, it makes perfect sense, in fact the best games in gaming history have great depth with easy mechanics that are hard to master.

Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.08.03 01:53:00 - [351] - Quote Templar Two wrote: Just to throw in a quick fact. Guild Wars2 is a RPG and it has PVP that doesn't rely on stats & gear. Why Dust 514, that is a PVP FPS, wants to rely so much on stats & gear while Guild Wars is going the other way around? Why Guild Wars 2 understand the stupidity of stats & gear in a PVP game and Dust doesn't? because Dust is based on the EVE universe with EVE mechanics
Raix Shi Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.08.03 01:55:00 - [352] - Quote Have you guys tried adjusting your sensitivity? and last i checked there was a known issue with it and they are working on tweaking the balance.
xprotoman23 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1452	Posted - 2012.08.03 01:59:00 - [353] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Templar Two wrote: Just to throw in a quick fact. Guild Wars2 is a RPG and it has PVP that doesn't rely on stats & gear. Why Dust 514, that is a PVP FPS, wants to rely so much on stats & gear while Guild Wars is going the other way around? Why Guild Wars 2 understand the stupidity of stats & gear in a PVP game and Dust doesn't? because Dust is based on the EVE universe with EVE mechanics EVE doesn't have any FPS mechanics Shooting mechanics in EVE are complex spread sheet algorithms and setting your phazors to kill, while folding your laundry.
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.08.03 02:00:00 - [354] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Templar Two wrote: Just to throw in a quick fact. Guild Wars2 is a RPG and it has PVP that doesn't rely on stats & gear. Why Dust 514, that is a PVP FPS, wants to rely so much on stats & gear while Guild Wars is going the other way around? Why Guild Wars 2 understand the stupidity of stats & gear in a PVP game and Dust doesn't? because Dust is based on the EVE universe with EVE mechanics EVE doesn't have any FPS mechanics Shooting mechanics in EVE are complex spread sheet algorithms and setting your phazors to kill, while folding your laundry. if you dont have enough common sense to understand what i was referring to than im not going to bother debating this.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.03 02:11:00 - [355] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Templar Two wrote: Just to throw in a quick fact. Guild Wars2 is a RPG and it has PVP that doesn't rely on stats & gear. Why Dust 514, that is a PVP FPS, wants to rely so much on stats & gear while Guild Wars is going the other way around? Why Guild Wars 2 understand the stupidity of stats & gear in a PVP game and Dust doesn't? because Dust is based on the EVE universe with EVE mechanics EVE doesn't have any FPS mechanics Shooting mechanics in EVE are complex spread sheet algorithms and setting your phazors to kill, while folding your laundry. I almost spit out my iced tea while reading this.
xprotoman23 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1452	Posted - 2012.08.03 06:32:00 - [356] - Quote Mike Gunnzito wrote: xprotoman23 wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Templar Two wrote: Just to throw in a quick fact. Guild Wars2 is a RPG and it has PVP that doesn't rely on stats & gear. Why Dust 514, that is a PVP FPS, wants to rely so much on stats & gear while Guild Wars is going the other way around? Why Guild Wars 2 understand the stupidity of stats & gear in a PVP game and Dust doesn't? because Dust is based on the EVE universe with EVE mechanics EVE doesn't have any FPS mechanics Shooting mechanics in EVE are complex spread sheet algorithms and setting your phazors to kill, while folding your laundry. I almost spit out my iced tea while reading this. Not letting this thread go.
WiZdomTooTh Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 7	Posted - 2012.08.03 07:28:00 - [357] - Quote LoL....why you guys with FPS experience want to ruin the Eve on the ground grinding experience? Imma get me a mining drop suit and bust me some rocks for some cash. Who's in?
Crimson MoonV Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 658	Posted - 2012.08.03 08:34:00 - [358] - Quote WiZdomTooTh wrote: LoL....why you guys with FPS experience want to ruin the Eve on the ground grinding experience? Imma get me a mining drop suit and bust me some rocks for some cash. Who's in?
Tak Kak 22	Posted - 2012.08.03 08:43:00 - [359] - Quote Bleh...a game of nothing but strafing... It looks horrible...Reminds me of how stupid fights looked in World of Warcraft. I don't care how its fixed but the direction to reduce it is getting better.
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.08.03 08:57:00 - [360] - Quote So for you being a bullet sponge (high TTK), having shield and HP that re-gen make a FPS hard. A FPS that protects you isn't hard: it's easy! When a FPS in unforgiving, when few deciseconds of distraction cost you death, when few bullets can kill you it's hard not when it covers you ass with all sort of health regenerative nonsense and armors/shields that can absorb bullets like a sponge. I have time to react/think in Halo or Dust when I am shot at: how can that be harder compered to a FPS that demands super fast reaction or you die. In low TTK FPS you don't have the luxury of thinking about "where to side side strafe" or "to switch to the secondary weapon" after 3 bullets hit your chest or your head. Requiring super fast reflexes are the elements that made a fps hard FPS not side strafing or letting shields delay death so that I can think about what I have to do! The quality of a soldier in rel life is measured on how quickly he ca react BEFORE he gets 3 bullets his his chest not AFTER he got them. FPS that aimed to deliver "Real life" experience are hard, not FPS where you can rocketjump of shields absorb bullets. Don't mistake Hard to kill for "hard". Dark Souls is a hard VG not because it takes a lot of time to kill a boss, but because it take little time to be killed.



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