DUST Search - Lets talk game mechanics.

EnglishSnake wrote:

Templar Two wrote:

Dust 514, on the FPS side, doesn't offer anything that PlanetSide din't do already in 9 years ago or BF 2142.
What Dust 514 is offering is access to the EVE universe.

Now BF 3 is a military FPS so going down easy it's essentially intended.
Also BF is not easy on vehicles, objectively not as much as Dust 514; in Dust 514 vehicles don't have weak spots, can self repair, have shields shields + you get SP that improve vehicles...it's really, really giving you a lot of help.
Maybe BF for you it's frustrating, or simply you don't like that kind of FPS but it's supposed to be easier to die there because it's a military FPS.

COD despite the low TTK is also cheapened by: lack of recoil, killstreaks, killcam, autoaim, minimap, etc...
Dust actually takes lot from COD: mini map, perma spotting, killstreaks (war points), perks (SP)

Now, I never said I don't accept Dust 514 TTK.
I favor low TTK FPS but I enjoy perfectly high TTK shooters...simply I don't think it' right to call Dust a very skill demanding FPS, not wit so many arcade FPS mechanics.

BF3 maybe military intended but tbh its far from it gameplay wise and only looks like one

BF3 vehicles can self repair but tbh once it gets hit its now useless and 1 engy can take out 3 tanks easily or disable them at least, DUST on the otherhand have made them damn useful atm and strong but because its beta we havnt got full access to the AV weapons and lack of grouping makes the problem worse

Alot of FPS have mini maps in general so you cant say DUST takes that from COD it takes it from the genre, perma spotting also in BF3 spam select and with war points we dont know what effect that will have yet

Perks wise its not a perk but more of a bonus for learning a skill,its not like BF3 where you can basically equip it and change it and plus its with you forever and each match, its how EVE is so they have carried it into DUST

DUST may become more skill demanding as more is added, right now its bare bones kinda stuff


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Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.01 19:46:00 - [1] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: lol @ ppl saying strafe speed was fine in the last build Last build was broke from top to ******* bottom how can you say it was any good when ppl jumped across the screen because of framerate and lag? I'd say that's the point. Ppl argued that strafe speed was TOO fast, but it was more a problem of horrific framerate and hit detection. As that continues to improve, that'll make tracking the fast movers easier... so no reason why we can't speed it back up. (just a little) Coincidentally, that'll fix other problems too. Like AR imbalance. That'll make the Duvolle AR more of an option over the Creo as well. Half the reason the Creo is king right now, is because framerate and hit detection (while improved) are still "questionable" at best. If half ur shots don't even register, you might as well use the gun that hits harder so that the rounds that DO hit, count. Once hit detection gets better, the higher ROF of the Duvolle will make more of an impact.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.01 21:23:00 - [2] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: 1. High strafe speed takes more skill because it is harder to hit someone who is strafing. This makes aiming harder to do, henceforth more skill. um....whether or not it makes it harder for someone to hit, and the "skill" differences that brings, the concept of strafing to dodge bullets is silly to me. Strafing isn't meant to dodge a bullet that is "on target"... Since it takes several bullets to kill, it's meant to get you out of the line of fire, in the hopes that the opponents aim is off enough to give you time to fire back. Moving targets aren't hard to hit because the bullet is too slow, their hard to hit because the timing of the shooter's aim is tested.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.02 01:59:00 - [3] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: This thread is full of laughs. We get more frames and better hit detection and that somehow ruined the game. I think you are just mad that you can't riverdance through bullets anymore and thus are promoting it as skill. As much as you chose to ignore it, the positioning at the start of the fight should be more important that your ability to weave through bullets. Breaking down your argument, cover is merely something pretty between fights, since "good" games will let you dodge and strafe to equal terms before the disadvantageous position you've put yourself in asserts a penalty to you. EVE is famous for the butterfly effect. If you win handily a great gunfight but that leaves you in the middle of a street, a tank/sniper/"noobs" behind cover will level your ass and no game that awards real skill would prevent that. OH MY GOD YES. they know about FPS's, ill give them that, but they refuse to accept that Dust will have a unique playstyle that might force them to play a little differently. Here's the disconnect. Crimson and crew want you to understand that their talking about FPS mechanics at the most fundamental level. Increase movement speed, so that there is more involvement on the 1v1 level... They want to be able to recover from incoming fire and retaliate. Not, "oh I see you first, I'll shoot 3 bullets into you, without you being able to move much, and win" IMO, the "different type of game" argument that Lurch and Noc are mentioning doesn't need to mean slow movement speed/tactical gameplay/etc. The "tactical" gameplay shouldn't be on the 1v1 level, but more on the macro level. Tactical gameplay mean the entire team playing with strategy and/or tactics. This can still be done, giving Dust it's "different" gameplay, while maintaining the type of FPS that Crimson (and others of us) want.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.02 02:03:00 - [4] - Quote Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: Yes!!! Mike for president I'll run independant. I'm Mike Gunnzito... and I approve this message. (shakes hands and kisses a baby on camera)
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:05:00 - [5] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: Right, but that's pretty standard in FPS. A miss is a miss. Now how is 30% damage and 50% health not a massive advantage? My original point was that you guys focused on these little examples. Which you are. And not the fact that no-one gives a decent, explaination. I'm quite beyond caring. Not sure why you bother with English... he's clearly re7arded. Not sure if it was eating lead paint chips as a child that caused it, or maybe shaken baby syndrome, but he's pretty... "challenged"
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:11:00 - [6] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Tony Calif wrote: @Snake Stop being a **** snake. You know as well as I do that provided you have hands which move and eyes that see, SP is more important than actual ability. Give 2 militia guys same gear, the one with +30% damage and 50%ehp ha a massive advantage. Why are you saying they don't? You've got over 22 mil SP. Sounds like your out of touch with things. I have 26mil with about 2mil unused If you cant aim you wont kill them, 30% means ** all if you dont hit them because you cause 0 damage 0 damage if you cant aim ...and if my grandmother had a d!k, she'd be my grandfather. Why are you so dense? Clearly, if both players are evenly skilled, the one with the 20mil SP and better gear will win. The prob isn't even the advantage, it's the SIZE of the advantage that the player that grinds has. Obviously if there is a HUGE skill difference, then the better player has a chance to overcome the disadvantage, but with even a moderate difference in skill, the new "moderately better" player can't compete with the guy who has been grinding for 20mil SP. I personally don't care, but it's something that needs to be kept in mind if you are to attract a decent player base and not scare of new players after the game has been around for a while.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.02 20:52:00 - [7] - Quote It's fine to make Dust a "anything goes" game. The general game mechanics of offering contracts in null sec, consumable weapons, eventual 1v1 arena combat, (that supposedly ppl can wager on) I'm even ok with corps having advantages because they have more money to throw into a battle in null sec, all that helps to accomplish this, but this is separate from the FPS mechanics. My problem is more with the ppl that deny the imbalance exists, more so than the imbalance itself. I'm actually one of the guys that's ok with imbalance as long as it's explained well by CCP. Imbalance should not exist in High Sec, should be managed in Low Sec, and can be left relatively untouched in Null Sec. (as long as it's not gamebreaking) The strafe argument, weapon balancing argument, etc, is one about FPS mechanics and making this game a good shooter. It has nothing to do with the general mechanics involved in making Dust a "deeper" gaming experience.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.02 21:25:00 - [8] - Quote Laheon wrote: Mike - what's your position in the strafe argument? I think it's fine where it is. Tony has been arguing for a buff to previous levels. Also, I think that highsec, any imbalance caused by gear will be balanced out. It will become wholly unprofitable to use advanced or higher gear in highsec, as the cost (if you die, which you will) will be too high. That pretty much eliminates any gear imbalance. Likewise, any vehicles will be sparsely used. It just won't be that profitable to use much in highsec. It will be used mostly for tutorials, as players running around in militia gear (or BPO gear) to get some easy SP at little to no cost. We're gaining isk and SP at an increased rate in the beta, so when the game gets released... I think the strafe speed should be buffed. If not back to original levels, at least somewhere between now and then. I don't think the problems last build were with the strafe speed by itself. It was the fact that there was fast strafe speed along with HORRIFIC framerate and hit detection. That is a bad combo. The hit detection has gotten better, but still needs a little work. But as long as it continues to improve, the higher strafe speed will not be a too much of a problem for those that can aim. In fact, I would say that for a game with such a huge imbalance in character stats between a newb with under 1mil SP and a vet with 20mil SP, the higher strafe speed would be the only thing that gives a good newb a fighting chance against a vet. It would be balanced because the good newb could use lots of strafing and dancing and great aim, to counter the vets huge HP and dmg output advantage.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.03 02:11:00 - [9] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Templar Two wrote: Just to throw in a quick fact. Guild Wars2 is a RPG and it has PVP that doesn't rely on stats & gear. Why Dust 514, that is a PVP FPS, wants to rely so much on stats & gear while Guild Wars is going the other way around? Why Guild Wars 2 understand the stupidity of stats & gear in a PVP game and Dust doesn't? because Dust is based on the EVE universe with EVE mechanics EVE doesn't have any FPS mechanics Shooting mechanics in EVE are complex spread sheet algorithms and setting your phazors to kill, while folding your laundry. I almost spit out my iced tea while reading this.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.03 08:59:00 - [10] - Quote Tak Kak wrote: Bleh...a game of nothing but strafing... It looks horrible...Reminds me of how stupid fights looked in World of Warcraft. I don't care how its fixed but the direction to reduce it is getting better. Here's a hint as to why you want to do this. I'm not going to argue as to which type of FPS is better, but If you try and make a FPS that has a low TTK and slow clunky movement speed, where you cant really react much to incoming fire that hits you, and has vehicles... you get BF3. TRUST ME, you DON'T want to be BF3. You want to be different. Because if you make the gameplay similar to BF3, ppl would rather just go and play BF3...because BF3 does it BETTER! That's the reason so many FPS fail. Because they try and be a COD clone or BF clone... and you're not going to beat COD at its own game, or BF at its own game. You have to do your own thing to differentiate yourself. The FPS mechanics is one way. (and obviously the meta game in Dust, is an even bigger way)

Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:32:00 - [11] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Mike Gunnzito wrote: Tak Kak wrote: Bleh...a game of nothing but strafing... It looks horrible...Reminds me of how stupid fights looked in World of Warcraft. I don't care how its fixed but the direction to reduce it is getting better. Here's a hint as to why you want to do this. I'm not going to argue as to which type of FPS is better, but If you try and make a FPS that has a low TTK and slow clunky movement speed, where you cant really react much to incoming fire that hits you, and has vehicles... you get BF3. TRUST ME, you DON'T want to be BF3. You want to be different. Because if you make the gameplay similar to BF3, ppl would rather just go and play BF3...because BF3 does it BETTER! That's the reason so many FPS fail. Because they try and be a COD clone or BF clone... and you're not going to beat COD at its own game, or BF at its own game. You have to do your own thing to differentiate yourself. The FPS mechanics is one way. (and obviously the meta game in Dust, is an even bigger way) Dust is not trying to be BF...... I didn't say it was trying to be. My point is that they have some similarities, and you don't want them to be TOO similar. They are both FPS with vehicles, 12v12 grouping (PC has 32v32), game modes that are objective based and require some level of teamwork. However Dust has more RPG mechanics worked in, which differs from BF. My point was that if you start slowing down the gameplay too much, it starts to become even more like BF. It's a slippery slope. If it's TOO similar to BF, a lot of ppl would rather go and play BF.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:35:00 - [12] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Templar Two wrote: Dust 514, on the FPS side, doesn't offer anything that PlanetSide din't do already in 9 years ago or BF 2142. What Dust 514 is offering is access to the EVE universe. Now BF 3 is a military FPS so going down easy it's essentially intended. Also BF is not easy on vehicles, objectively not as much as Dust 514; in Dust 514 vehicles don't have weak spots, can self repair, have shields shields + you get SP that improve vehicles...it's really, really giving you a lot of help. Maybe BF for you it's frustrating, or simply you don't like that kind of FPS but it's supposed to be easier to die there because it's a military FPS. COD despite the low TTK is also cheapened by: lack of recoil, killstreaks, killcam, autoaim, minimap, etc... Dust actually takes lot from COD: mini map, perma spotting, killstreaks (war points), perks (SP) Now, I never said I don't accept Dust 514 TTK. I favor low TTK FPS but I enjoy perfectly high TTK shooters...simply I don't think it' right to call Dust a very skill demanding FPS, not wit so many arcade FPS mechanics. BF3 maybe military intended but tbh its far from it gameplay wise and only looks like one BF3 vehicles can self repair but tbh once it gets hit its now useless and 1 engy can take out 3 tanks easily or disable them at least, DUST on the otherhand have made them damn useful atm and strong but because its beta we havnt got full access to the AV weapons and lack of grouping makes the problem worse Alot of FPS have mini maps in general so you cant say DUST takes that from COD it takes it from the genre, perma spotting also in BF3 spam select and with war points we dont know what effect that will have yet Perks wise its not a perk but more of a bonus for learning a skill,its not like BF3 where you can basically equip it and change it and plus its with you forever and each match, its how EVE is so they have carried it into DUST DUST may become more skill demanding as more is added, right now its bare bones kinda stuff I like what they did with most of the vehicles after the patching. The vehicles became what they SHOULD be in a FPS... SUPPORT! Prior to patch, one good tank driver could DOMINATE a match, even if there were several decent engis trying to take him out. After patch, they were still relatively strong, but could not just bull their way through a match if the opposing team had a couple good engis. Making them a good support piece in a match, but not the OP game piece they were at BF's launch.
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.03 19:00:00 - [13] - Quote Gilliam Stargleam wrote: The strafing and jumping to dodge "bullets" in Dust 514 is almost joke like and very much a reason i want it eliminated. I'm not looking for some actiony arcade like shooter, if i'm dumpin a clip at a opponent and he/she/it has no cover them F em, they got caught out in the open and got killed. The scout types that move so fast they can run through a barrage of 3 opponents shooting at them and still not die is a bad idea to leave in the game. I'm not going to go on as i'll wait for the new build but damn, just damn. The REALLY fast scouts are using the sprint booster mods. And tbh, if they're running thru 3 guys and don't die, either the hit detection is acting up, or the 3 guys just suck at aiming. (prob a little of both) You say you're not into an "actiony arcade like shooter" . You realize this a FPS that takes place in the future, with clones, and lazer beams, plasma guns, force fields, etc..... what do you expect?
Mike Gunnzito 111	Posted - 2012.08.03 23:51:00 - [14] - Quote Gilliam Stargleam wrote: You REALLY want to go down this road with me Mike Gunnzito? Hmmm? Let us pretend your not just arguing debate club tactics to simply do so. IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW FAST THE GUY WAS/IS! But you already knew that, right? It may have been lag + no hit detection, But that really isn't the point either, and you already knew that to huh. And yes even though it's in the future blah blah blah etc cliche, i DO expect the GAME MECHASNICS to have a semblance of reality. But like i said, i'll just wait until the new build drops before i start digging in at the game. wow, you don't get. You want it gone not because its not realistic, (no part of this game is realistic, lol @ you using the "realistic argument) but because you don't like it. Like others have said, HTFU. This game mechanic is CRUCIAL as a balancing mechanism for the increased HP/dmg output/etc that vets have. It'll be the only thing giving newbies a fighting chance in this game. (although they'll still be at a disadvantage) +1 Crimson. Truth is, slower movement speed will break this game, because it'll crush the newer players, once Dust is 3-6months in.