You are looking at it from a tank drivers perspective though. How it will benefit you. Not how the game mechanics will effect the success of the game.

You can tell me to get in a tank all you want. That doesn't adress the issue with the bulky gun mechanics of this game. I did read the post. You don't want heavies to have a speed boost so it won't effect your tank camping.

Sorry I misread. Heavy suit does need a speed boost.

CCP do not handhold people with large amounts of aim assist and slow strafe speeds. God forbid this games gun mechanics actually take skill.

That was a typo. I meant to say heavy doesn't, sorry.

EDIT-I'm full of fail today. First a misread and then a type. MY BAD.

I'm actually wondering what kind of shooter CCP wants to turn this into mechanics wise, because I've never heard any statements about this. Do they want a 'quick fast paced twitch shooter' or do they want a 'slow bulky shoot for hours on end shooter'? Genuine question.

NO SIR REDLINING HAPPENS BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU USE TANKS AND THERE IS NO DEFENSE FOR THAT EXCEPT FOR SPECING OUT IN THINGS THAT ARE EITHER BORING OR TOO EXPENSIVE

Plateau's is a flawed map, but redlining is what happens when gameplay is slowed down.

MAG 2.0 beta vs. 2.0 retail is a prime example of this.

MAG 2.0 beta gameplay was incredibly fast and most games really felt like a true struggle. People begin to QQ and cry about gameplay being too fast for them although it catered to both players that can't do anything but ADS and also those that like to both hipfire and ADS.

MAG 2.0 retail rolls around and redlining is alive and well.

When gameplay is slowed down players play much more defensively and allows for people to camp much easier.

APOLOGIES I GET EMOTIONAL okay that was just caps lock

Replication was the sweet spot. If gameplay isn't sped up in the next build DS3 users aren't going to have much of a chance against KB+M players and the game will fail because people wanted it to play like a SOCOM trailer. (used for advertisement purposes only)

Personally, i find the strafe speed to be good at this point, as last build you were able to strafe ads to fast, as idk if anyone here actually has done that, but u cant run and stafe while ads fast like you could build. This build allowes good strafe speed for hipfire and reduced for ads firing which it should. Either skill into a scout suit to get upclose and hipfire or make each shot count while adsNot saying dont have skill, as have seen u play, but i think movement speed is actually one of the things i find that work really well

You can't skill into anything to fix the bulky strafe speed mechanics.

Higher strafe speed is a necessity. Just like having a gun or having a HUD.

One thing need to remember is strafe speed isnt constant like in CoD. Strafe speed DOES depend on your dropsuit, hence scouts are strafe fast, assault/logi med, and heavies dont strafe much since they are supposed to soak up bullets essentially

If you can create "virtual cover" just by wagging back and forth on the left thumbstick, then 90% of the map design is just backdrop for your "elite'" gunfights. We have mixed arms and cover, and sprint mods. You are SIGNIFICANTLY more stable from a nearly immobile stance, but no prone. This means they want good mobility between fights, but you shouldn't be dodging bullets unless you are scout vs heavy. And even then one mistake and the scout is spaghetti. You don't have to like it, but crossing open terrain is supposed to be very dangerous. That is why the defender spawn in Plateau is SO bad - completely open without cover.

I wouldn't see why they would want that though. Its not really not a good formula for a high health fps imo. Watch the E3 trailer. The strafe speed is much higher. I am actually quite confident that they just lowered the strafe speeds until they fix hit detection.

I guess we will have to wait and see.

Head glitching behind cover is still very much a tactic in strafe and shoot fps. I see people doing it all the time. Not always effectively but they sure do try it a lot.

Realism arguments are negated since we are playing a scifi shooter with regenerating shield, lasers, and armor. When it comes to videogames gameplay trumps realism unless you are looking for authenticity. If CCP was looking for realism when I shoot at the treads on a tank after a certain damage threshold it should become immobile and even inoperable. Or when I drop gets shot in one of the thrusters it loses handling.

Shielding is cover in this game.

Slower game speeds has promoted the pile of crap that has been the E3 build of this game.

I don't really understand this post considering I can run across open terrain and just turn on any scrub that tries to shoot me in the back. Ccp made the health high so that skill is a more of a factor. In CoD If someone sneezes on you your dead.

So I am a bit confused by this post.

Still I don't think movement speeds should be nerfed in the name of complexity considering this is a high health complex strafe and shoot fps. Strafe speed adds to the complexity of gun fights therefor making dust a more complex game.

If I just wanted to blast people and head glitch behind cover, I would go play any other console fps.

Understand that a high strafing speed makes a good game that takes skill. A realistic game would be really boring and take no skill. Two shots to kill everyone. One shot extremely wounded.

Which, just to be argumentative at this point, DUST mercs are such freaking spec ops killing machines.

If you were a spec ops killing machine, you wouldn't need to ADS while running...

One of my friends shot a clay pigeon from hip fire, and he was just trying to look cool. Imagine being trained with guns day in and day out... You'd be insane.

You gotta understand where I'm coming from. I'm an fps shooter that wants skill over everything else in the game. Most experienced shooters will agree that it is harder to hit someone when they are moving faster, therefore it takes more skill to hit someone while they are moving fast. We also need low bullet damage(which is pretty good in this game) so we can turn on the people with less skill then us.

Just because I'm strafing doesn't mean I'm not behind cover.

I'm still on the defense about tanks. I mean I can't really go anywhere because I will get destroyed by tanks. With dropships I'm 100% screwed because now i REALLY have nowhere to hide.

The go and destroy it yourself mentality has always been crap. If I was a completely awful fps I would gladly destroy all tanks and noobships. Since I try to specialize in killing people and going for and defending objectives, I can't really take out tanks or dropships. The tanks are more do-able with my remote explosives, but dropships are just insane. They were OP in Dark Night Rises, they are OP here.

I really enjoyed the strafiness of the last build, had a lot of fun fights. I think this build supports tactical group play a bit better(if only there was group play).

Two ways to nerf strafiness are lower lateral velocity and increased suit inertia. It feels like CCP adjusted both of these - slower speed and greater inertia. I think they could adjust them back just a bit toward what they were last build.

But to address the 'bulky' isssue: I think most of the bulky feel comes from poor controls, not reduced strafiness. Slow and inconsistent weapon swapping, the annoying wheel, slow 'nade tosses, inability to interrupt animations, losing sprint everytime you get airborne, losing scope when you reload, having to hit R1 twice because you pressed it before the animation completed, and more issues which we're all too familiar with.

Anyway, my point is fixing these thing would go a long way towards giving the game a lighter, sweeter feel.

Man I have to wonder how loud all these 'gun game' aficionados are going to cry once they add in stasis webs.

Lurch, I know it seems ridiculously nitpicky, but it's like sprinting after catching air or pressing R1 a little too soon after reloading - the game doesn't register the button press. Plain and simple: bad control mechanics.

I don't know how I missed this thread. +1 on everything you've said crimson.
Regarding the audience they're after see here. I dont know how many times I have to put out this link... Everyone should realise, this game isn't for the EvE terribads. It's for te console FPS player, with a bit of extra support for kb/m ect.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/04/29/dust-514-promises-to-be-a-game-changer-an-interview-with-ccp-games-ceo-hilmar-petersson
Strafe speed is currently too low IMHO. Last build was fun. This is not.
Note in that link, Dust wasn't going to be linked with EvE. Needs to be a game in itself really then doesn't it. Which means changes.

Without faster strafing speeds KB+M players are going to dominate DS3 users.

Not as strong as with Lurch. Atleast Larheon posts constructive views instead of saying this is EvE on foot.

Alas we are to flipping bored since we cant shoot each other.

What I find very interesting is the fact that all those OP that continue to bash what we have been so graciously presented and invited to provide input to are continuously comparing it to the products of Activision and Electronic Arts. Both of these companies couldn't really give a rat's as* about the requests and input from their potential players and produce and release exactly what it is THEY want, not what their community is requesting or demanding.

I understand why people continue to compare there last 6 years of game with this one, it is the natural way humans figure what is good and what is bad: comparative analysis. Yet this is not a good enough reason, at least in my eyes, to continue to do so. Not to mention, and I have yet to see anyone to really touch upon this, the fact that you are attempting to compare 3 very different gaming engines and the application of those engines in the development of a vision. Most betas, like everyone has touched upon, are just glorified PR tools to drum up excitement over a game that just has improved mechanics (hopefully) and graphics (sometimes, just look at Black Ops 2, it looks worse than the first one IMHO). This on the other hand is a completely unique venture n the fact that it is expanding and existing universe while bridging the means of interaction.

@ Tony Calif: I have been reading your posts for some time. You seem to be unable to separate COD and BF3 from this experience. I understand why that can be so difficult. It is also probably the same set of reason why I REFUSE to play either games anymore. This game is having a TRUE beta, not just a PR stunt. Either you can enjoy it, or not. But the constant bashing is getting old. And i am too old to listen to it.

If this game has even just as much depth on release as what is being presented now, I will be happy. This is especially considering the fact that CCP continuously tinkers with and refines their games. That, I have to say, is very UNLIKE the makers of COD and the BF series. They have had some shinning moments, but the last 4 versions of each of these franchises (which they are used to JUST make money) have shown little growth beyond the development of Frostbite 2 by DICE.

It would seem to me that while you are continue to bash what CCP is attempting to build both in the game and the community, you present this image to me of a major developer, or a fanboy tea bagging them. But I guess everyone has their place in life.

@OP: I only hope that some of you find the wisdom to see the potential of what is begin presented and ultimately will be handed over to us. Once the actual game finally releases, this is going to be a game that we will watch evolve and mutate much like life itself, and that is part of the experience that CCP brings to the table that other developers wish they could. This is not to say that CCP has not had their short comings between what the promise in comparison to what they deliver, but such is life. What they have done is involve their community of players a hell of a lot more than any other game company I have had the pleasure and displeasure to interact with.

This is not me tea bagging CCP, just being realizing of the potential of the game, the vision and intention of the company, and of the community.

+ 1
bring back strafe speed.

Game just feels slow now even with 3 x proto kinetics loaded

Fast mobility promotes good gun game lurch. Come to the fps side lurch. We are more elite and we have cookies.

1. High strafe speed takes more skill because it is harder to hit someone who is strafing. This makes aiming harder to do, henceforth more skill.

Strafing isn't meant to dodge a bullet that is "on target"...
Since it takes several bullets to kill, it's meant to get you out of the line of fire, in the hopes that the opponents aim is off enough to give you time to fire back. Moving targets aren't hard to hit because the bullet is too slow, their hard to hit because the timing of the shooter's aim is tested.

That means we look at things very differently. Strafing is to stop enemies from hitting you. If you want to run from your enemy you would want faster running speeds. Strafing is basically moving side to side.

Being able to track fast moving targets=skill in fps.

IKR

I am tired of getting into a gunfight and it consists of me staring at the enemy while he stares at me and we both hold R1. Most of the time all you can do is hope you have more skill points.

Yeah... Very tactical game play indeed.

Circle strafing is a legit tactic and is still quite prevalent in dust. Sorry you think its silly.

The control balance issue is that KB/M is even easier against slow moving targets. How easy do you want this game???

The problem people are having with gun fights is they are boring and slow as ****. Not the hit markers. Hit markers isn't even that much of an issue in this build. So I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Once hit markers are fixed people will play even more defensively because it will be even easier to camp.

You not wanting strafe speeds because they are silly is not a legit reason.

That's how 90% of my medium to long range gun end up. We both just stare at each other and hold R1.

You know if you guys really want to go play dust while the servers are down. Get on an LAN black ops server and put it to 200% health. There you go, have fun playing dust. Minus the tomahawks and killstreaks all that tomfoolery.

Come on lurch. It has been said before this is not EvE. The hardcore fps players are good at all fps players and win even at disadvantages. Unfortunately this disadvantage is just way to extreme for even the best fpsers like moejoe to handle. Skill points should not be too major of an advantage that the person with the least amount of skill points spent gets effed in the butt. You know how many kills moejoe and protoman would be getting if this game consistently took skill(no tanks, no dropships, no spawn camping, high strafing speed)?

Fast strafe speeds+good hit detection will make for epic 1 vs 1 gunfights.

You said somewhere on the forums that you defend this game from CoD fanboys that don't understand what this game is supposed to be. So then why are you defending CoD game mechanics in dust?

Just because Dust is doing something unique doesn't make it good! The only good unique thing they are doing is connecting Dust with Eve. But making a shooter where skill points not skill helps you win is not good. A proto already has an advantage over the lower tier stuff but then you have skills to further increase that gap it's just insane.

In Eve that may be fine but this is a shooter where people want balance. The only people who don't want balance in a shooter are the people who are not very good and need the advantage to make themselves feel better!

Game takes skills to be good not skill! Thank god CCP got experienced FPS people on a console testing this game!

If this was a computer game I would listen to everything you say.

Adding MMO (massive multiplayer online) aspects to a shooter is not unique because it's already been done Planetside, Tribes, Mag just those three alone come off the top.

Now if you want to talk about RPG elements with the use of skill points to advance your character that too has already been done, MAG, Planetside....

Even adding an MMOFPS to the console isn't unique because MAG did that already. The only thing they are doing unique is connecting to another game on another system.

The perfect imbalance doesn't belong in a shooter and they are definitely targeting the wrong group of gamer with that mind set. Perfect imbalance sounds more like something EVE players would like which means it should be on PC. Perfect imbalance actually makes gameplay stale...

Everyone uses setup A because it's OP until some people find it's useless against setup B then everyone uses B. BF3 tried perfect imbalance and you know what they ended up changing the way all attachments work because suppressor and foregrip was OP which in reality it wasn't because I never used a suppressor and netted plenty of high kill games.

This thread is full of laughs. We get more frames and better hit detection and that somehow ruined the game. I think you are just mad that you can't riverdance through bullets anymore and thus are promoting it as skill. As much as you chose to ignore it, the positioning at the start of the fight should be more important that your ability to weave through bullets.

Breaking down your argument, cover is merely something pretty between fights, since "good" games will let you dodge and strafe to equal terms before the disadvantageous position you've put yourself in asserts a penalty to you. EVE is famous for the butterfly effect. If you win handily a great gunfight but that leaves you in the middle of a street, a tank/sniper/"noobs" behind cover will level your ass and no game that awards real skill would prevent that.

Way to miss the point and you couldn't be more wrong. No one is against hit detection. You are dumb if that's what you got from this thread.

Says the guy that thought ADS and hip fire games were the same thing. No one is taking your unsupported posts seriously anymore. Sorry.

OR we just buff lateral movement and gun game becomes more about skill. The whole sandbox can have a fair chance of killing each other in gun fights. As opposed to skill points being the deciding factor because gun fights are so slow there is pretty much nothing you can do but hold R1 and hope you have more SP then the person on the other end.

That's all most people do this build is head glitch cause they freakout when somebody has the balls to use their shields soak up some damage and charge at people.

Don't compare COD pub matches to COD clan matches. They are completely separate experiences. You have to be stupid if you expect to win with a pubby loadout.

Different gravity for each planet?

Then we will just take all the planets with the lowest gravities. Problem solved.


You guys can keep your tactical game play on your planet.

Corban's post captures the crux of it.

I'm certain that the vocal minority's cry for a strafier, more mainstream fpsier dust are primarily motivated by a KDR farming playstyle. It allows for more lone wolfing, and demands less integrated, thoughtful, teamwork.

After months of trying to take their arguments seriously, for my money that's the beginning and the end of it.

I have a feeling you didn't even read the entire thread.

Run along children.

Try "going around the block" with the right people and your views will change.

I have said this before lurch. WE HAVE COOKIES

2). Reward camping-There are two kinds of skill. You want to reward the one that takes less. Yeah I gotcha. Reward people that camp in corners and head glitch because they don't have the gun game to take on the person that is better then them at shooting/strafing.

Really so you want defensive campy game play to trump actual skill.

I want you to go play CoD for 8 hours and you will see exactly whats wrong with that statement.

Have you ever played CoD? Lots of tactical gameplay and camping/positioning. You would love it.

It is a problem in CoD because no matter how good you play, there is no way to control the map. There are no lines of battle, only random chaos from any direction at any time, which is why that game would benefit from skill allowing dodging of bullets.

I HATE COD. Nothing but campers and random deaths galore. DUST plays nothing like that at the moments, with the exception of the broken defense spawn on plateau, which is easily avoided, albeit very hard to break.

The fact that you are saying one kind of "true skill" is making it very clear you have no idea what you're on about. Balance is moot, you just want to buff scissors since that's the only thing you bring to the table.

I don't see the good point. Dust at its standing right now plays very similarly to COD. "Scissors" is the only thing to bring to the table. Tanks aren't bringing anything to the table right now. They are being used to milk kills in the way that takes the least amount of skill possible right now.
These objectives aren't mcdonalds drive thrus. You can't cap objectives from your tanks.

I never thought otherwise. The whole "wanting a complex game while wanting simple game mechanics" was more or less just to get my point across. I know you want a complex game.

Just to throw in a quick fact.
Guild Wars2 is a RPG and it has PVP that doesn't rely on stats & gear.

Why Dust 514, that is a PVP FPS, wants to rely so much on stats & gear while Guild Wars is going the other way around?
Why Guild Wars 2 understand the stupidity of stats & gear in a PVP game and Dust doesn't?

EVE doesn't have any FPS mechanics

Shooting mechanics in EVE are complex spread sheet algorithms and setting your phazors to kill, while folding your laundry.

Here's a hint as to why you want to do this.
I'm not going to argue as to which type of FPS is better, but If you try and make a FPS that has a low TTK and slow clunky movement speed, where you cant really react much to incoming fire that hits you, and has vehicles... you get BF3. TRUST ME, you DON'T want to be BF3. You want to be different.

Because if you make the gameplay similar to BF3, ppl would rather just go and play BF3...because BF3 does it BETTER!

That's the reason so many FPS fail. Because they try and be a COD clone or BF clone... and you're not going to beat COD at its own game, or BF at its own game. You have to do your own thing to differentiate yourself. The FPS mechanics is one way. (and obviously the meta game in Dust, is an even bigger way)