DUST Search - Slow, constant shield recharge and active armor reps

All Channels

Feedback/Requests

Slow, constant shield recharge and active armor reps

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:19:00 - [1] - Quote Obviously shield vehicles will have a higher recharge rate. Active reps are needed so that armor tanks aren't completely outclassed in every aspect. And vehicles just need to be better overall. AV is already exceedingly powerful, they don't need any more damage. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17190	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:35:00 - [2] - Quote Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:46:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I can be on at midnight Friday night my time. I can show you what a tank can do to enemies. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 7761	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:50:00 - [4] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: AV is already exceedingly powerful, they don't need any more damage. wut I routinely slam volleys of swarms into HAV and ADS only to have them harden and blap me, or hard and run to a side of the map that hasn't fitted AV yet to continue the mass murder. "You don't want McSyphilis. Don't nobody want McSyphilis." - One Eyed King
Banjo Robertson Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 454	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:55:00 - [5] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more?
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:56:00 - [6] - Quote As far as that, there are far too many people that don't listen to the beep, and have no idea I'm putting REs on their hull. I have a Gal scout I do that with; Boundless REs (yes I have them, for any others reading), packed Lai Dai, and ADV plasma. With those that have no clue, I just put the REs on the hull, fire a plasma then blow the REs, easily destroying a tank. With those that move, I need to bide my time to get enough REs on them. It's doable though. Thing is, there's those that have no clue, those that have some experience, and guys like me that tanked in PC. I hate tooting my horn, but those that tank in PC are a few cuts above the rest. We pay attention at all times, unless we're drunk. We know the advantages and disadvantages of the hulls and turrets, the limitations of our fits, etc. 1.7 was a huge blow to the crotch as far as options went, and any random person could go into vehicles and make a joke out of my experience. I'm not saying I don't want competition, or that it should take so much SP as to make vehicles unobtainable, but I want the experience and SP investment to be worth it. Bringing back some of the old vehicle attributes will certainly make things better, as well as 5% per level for shield, armor, CPU and PG. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 15575	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:57:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. That's because you were fighting people who know how to use a vehicle. The OP is not one of those people. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17192	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:57:00 - [8] - Quote Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 245	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:01:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I see your problem. You are trying to kill an Hardened vehicle all by yourself while your teamates don't do squat. In pc....I hate driving vehicles. Choo Choo
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:12:00 - [10] - Quote Atiim wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. That's because you were fighting people who know how to use a vehicle. The OP is not one of those people. Says a guy that thinks because he has SP into vehicles, that makes him a tanker. Oh, and my crazy month of PC experience > your assumptions based on very little experience. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2487	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:13:00 - [11] - Quote Killed two gunloggis this week(play about 7 matches a week) with minmando/proto swarms, but not solo. Also had one match where i held an outside point for about 5 minutes from two tanks and one infantry - died several times, ofc. AV Proto AV can currently push vehicles off points, temporarily. AV infantry has to run, hide, reposition if they want to survive the return encounter, or else find a damn sweet spot to operate from. PSN: RationalSpark
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2487	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:23:00 - [12] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Obviously shield vehicles will have a higher recharge rate. Active reps are needed so that armor tanks aren't completely outclassed in every aspect. And vehicles just need to be better overall. AV is already exceedingly powerful, they don't need any more damage. I so rarely agree with you but i do here. We've reached the point in balancing where damage/EHP are prolly not the answer. Would be far more interesting/productive to focus on things like tools that could modify a vehicle's mobility, repair cycle, visibility(on the HUD and on the tacnet). And let's not forget Evicer's LAV-mounted swarm launchers. Yes it requires devtime, but it's prolly something we want in the final game(Legion or DUST) anyway. PSN: RationalSpark
Slave of MORTE Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 289	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:24:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Try a demolition scout Adv packed av nade swarms re's Nanohive on a armor type scout running 1 kinkat the rest complex reactive with damage mods in highs ...say hello to cqc vehicle devastation .. Run adv packed av nades proto are not worth fitting cost Minmando is mostly for posting For gers in the current meta mostly post however if you really wanna test av effectiveness Fit a assault forge and packed av nades on a sentinel call a lav ..and go jump a tank . Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
Brush Master Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1439	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:25:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Are you running with a squad? I think this threads shows the large gaps between the perception and skill gaps of players. AV nades, yes, they need the amount carried increased. I will also point out that every time we buff AV to deal with tanks we majorly effect Dropships as they are not tanks and are hit by the same AV weapons plus are much more exposed. To me, I think weapons need to be a bit more specialized, like short range swarms with massive damage with lower tracking and long range swarms with less damage and better tracking. Dust Veteran. June 2012 - ? True Logi. Flying DS from the start. @dustreports
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 9549	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:39:00 - [15] - Quote By any chance Rattati were you facing Shield Gunlogis? Because Shield Gunlogis are a pain by itself but then you have the dual tanked issue which makes it even worse Rattati. I run Plasma Cannon as my only AV and you are correct, it is painfully UP even against shields when compared to swarms which it's supposed to be good at but even then Swarms outperform PLCs against a defense they are supposed to be weak against. Madrugars on the other hand are pretty easy for me to take out compared to Gunlogis and even Sicas that are properly fitted. But that's more of an issue of the Gallente HAVs being terrible. I digress and have no clue what I'm rambling on about but what I'm trying to say is that Dual Tanked Gunlogis are the main issue with HAVs right now. The ease of dual tanking is way too easy and way too effective and coupled with the fact that all AV save for one is weak against shields you're always going to have a terrible time taking out HAVs in this game as long as this meta is around. *~New Eden's #1 Gallente Arm's Dealer*
Ku Shala UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE 1251	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:52:00 - [16] - Quote the only way to effectively take out a gunlogi is to trap it with 2-3 av players most tankers have a routine pay attention to the retreat path. *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Superior technology will privale.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12048	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:57:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. Yes, and I hope one day the PLC will be good enough to justify having it on Gallente AV starter fits. If you ever give the MD full efficacy against vehicles, would fit nicely on Minmatar anti-armor starter fit (though honestly should just be called anti-vehicle for clarity) Support 'Keshava' for the new Gallente HAV name in honor of Cat Merc's cat which recently passed away.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7133	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:14:00 - [18] - Quote Hey Rattati I don't have the ability to record. So if you're willing, I can show you what it takes to solo the vehicles manually in squad. It's not impossible, but it can seem so for someone who has not been doing it forever. But it's absolutely stupid the level of setup and time it takes to pull off. Also I'm willing to bet you haven't fought a madrugar rather than boatloads of sica and gunnlogi. So if you want to get in on it let me know. I'll show you all of the dirty tricks and tactics that don't involve tower sniping. AV
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 415	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:20:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Thanks for taking the time to experience the bullshit that is being AV. I just want to say that I think the major problems with AV v. Tank right now is the Gunnlogi being absurdly overpowered and the "windows of opportunity" philosophy of balancing tilts everything in favor of vehicles, especially when those windows are long enough and the cooldown is short enough that the vehicle can use them whenever they are engaged, since vehicles generally control the time and place of engagement this becomes an overwhelming and insurmountable advantage (think scouts, if scouts had modules that made them largely invincible for half their run time). In my personal experience when both running AV and running my vehicle character that, while I may not have as rough a time as you are having (you scrub), I feel its pretty much impossible to kill a pilot who is paying attention and is basically competent. AV feels useless except as a way to drive away vehicles for very short amounts of time. Add to this that firing AV is very obvious and you have very limited ammo, and those short amounts of time generally result in being picked off either by infantry or by vehicles from very long range, or getting driven off your nanohive and having it popped, leaving you with less and less ammo over time, eventually making you useless by attrition. The same dynamic exists against dropshippers, but is much more tightly balanced, so that while a single AV player cannot ever really kill a dropship that is paying attention, multiple AV can make running a dropship prohibitively dangerous. This makes running dropships pretty un-fun especially given that swarms pretty much will hit you unless you run away (evasive action is limited to running as far away as possible, unlike vs. forge guns). Anyway I can keep going about how un-fun the current vehicle balance is, but Ill just stop here.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 875	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:31:00 - [20] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. have you tried.... suicide jeep?

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4928	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:39:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. The PLC is for sure a very difficult to use weapon and while it can be used at range, typically my most successful runs with it involve me getting up close and personal with an HAV which almost always ends in my death or the HAV's death, rarely do they run at that point. Also note that when I do get an HAV kill with it, its typically because I can alpha down the shield's buffer before the hardener goes up. Once that hardener is up....good luck. I think the main problem with swarms is their concept in general. Typically Missiles in EVE are known for 2 things. 1. They're useful from their max range all the way down to 0km. They don't suffer from tracking issues, so they can target anything if its within their effective range. 2. They never miss. Damage can be reduced if the target is small/moving fast, and in exceedingly rare instances they can outrun/outrange the missiles. What this leads to is a philosophy of "Constant Sustained DPS". They don't tear targets apart like say a Blaster would with crazy close range DPS, but what they do allow is that once you start firing on the target, that target is going to sustain moderate amounts of damage for a long period of time while they try to either kill the AVer or simply outrange the enemy. I think after the range of the Swarms got castrated, the obvious assumption was that the DPS had to increase to compensate which was reasonable...but it's also not quite working right. I'm not advocating for a return to the crazy ranges we had before (What was it, 400m?) but it might be interesting to take a look at the concept for a longer range, lower DPS swarm launcher that is built more around long term sustained DPS rather than shorter range higher DPS. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5971	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:44:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Are you experimenting with HAV's on an Alt as well? I know, as you have pointed out before, you don't have to have personal experience with something to develop it, however, it does certainly help. And since the vehicle balance is a fairly in-depth and long term project, it would be worth trying to get a bit of a feel for the vehicle experience. I spent a month focused exclusively on piloting HAV's a while back so that I would have a more informed opinion when it came to AV balance discussions. (I wrote a guide after the experience.) Anyway, I found it to be a very useful exercise, and I would recommend it to you. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1196	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:48:00 - [23] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: ... If you ever give the MD full efficacy against vehicles... Yes please, I don't get why we don't have this :/ Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Vyuru Algintal Core Gallente Federation 84	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:54:00 - [24] - Quote I run a shield tanked Gunlogi, and I can break it down just a bit to how I react: Minmando with proto swarms - run away. I can get out of range without using any modules if I need to, but they hit hard and it's really easy for a second AV'er to take me out depending on circumstances. Most anything with Adv swarms - I can take a couple of hits before moving away, not terribly concerned if it's just one. Two makes me retreat. Militia/basic swarms - I can eat those almost all day long, the one time I faced them in an Adv fitted tank I am not sure they even broke my shield regen. Also, speaking as a player, I don't even bother with AV (I'm thinking primarily swarms) when fighting vehicles. I find it a little bit boring, though forge guns or plasma cannons can be fun when used right. The forge gun for me is almost a strictly anti dropship weapon. If I'm dealing with LAVs or HAVs, I either pull out a tank or go JLAV them. I can chase down a tank in another tank much easier than I can on foot with AV. JLAVs are just fun for the shock and awe effect they have on tanks, and the horror when you pin a enemy LAV against the wall, hop out, set off RE's, and blow the enemy LAV to pieces. And now I get to do it in Quafe LAV style Swarms and forge guns used correctly (typically with teamwork) work just fine against most vehicles IMO. Plasma Cannons on there own could use a little something, but they are devastatingly effective when used in conjunction with AV/Flux grenades, or REs. And you can count me in the group that thinks there should be a Mass Driver variant that deals good damage vs vehicles and maybe could be used as a light vehicles (LAV/DS) deterrent. Either in the form of a heavy weapon or just a variant on the existing MD we have.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:06:00 - [25] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: AV is already exceedingly powerful, they don't need any more damage. wut I routinely slam volleys of swarms into HAV and ADS only to have them harden and blap me, or hard and run to a side of the map that hasn't fitted AV yet to continue the mass murder. You already accomplished making them run away. What more do you want, a certain kill from just 3 volleys? If that were the case, what would be the point of using vehicles? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7137	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:09:00 - [26] - Quote why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. AV
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 18659	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:10:00 - [27] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. The PLC is for sure a very difficult to use weapon and while it can be used at range, typically my most successful runs with it involve me getting up close and personal with an HAV which almost always ends in my death or the HAV's death, rarely do they run at that point. Also note that when I do get an HAV kill with it, its typically because I can alpha down the shield's buffer before the hardener goes up. Once that hardener is up....good luck. I think the main problem with swarms is their concept in general. Typically Missiles in EVE are known for 2 things. 1. They're useful from their max range all the way down to 0km. They don't suffer from tracking issues, so they can target anything if its within their effective range. 2. They never miss. Damage can be reduced if the target is small/moving fast, and in exceedingly rare instances they can outrun/outrange the missiles. What this leads to is a philosophy of "Constant Sustained DPS". They don't tear targets apart like say a Blaster would with crazy close range DPS, but what they do allow is that once you start firing on the target, that target is going to sustain moderate amounts of damage for a long period of time while they try to either kill the AVer or simply outrange the enemy. I think after the range of the Swarms got castrated, the obvious assumption was that the DPS had to increase to compensate which was reasonable...but it's also not quite working right. I'm not advocating for a return to the crazy ranges we had before (What was it, 400m?) but it might be interesting to take a look at the concept for a longer range, lower DPS swarm launcher that is built more around long term sustained DPS rather than shorter range higher DPS. 1. This is true they have full effectiveness within range HOWEVER because of that missiles cannot benefit from crits a mechanics eve online uses which is basically dice rolling every hit. 2. Not true you can dodge a missile for all intents and purposes by outflying the explosion forcing it to do diddly squat for damage. Its the whole reason why you don't use citadel torpedoes against interceptors. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 81	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:14:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Last night my ADD or OCD kicked and I wasted 8-9 Cal SCTs, proto nades, cmplx dmg mds x2, adv swarms. I got the tank after I surrounded him (Crotchgrab360). Tankers can hear way too much and swarms should be faster in flight.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4929	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:15:00 - [29] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: 2. Not true you can dodge a missile for all intents and purposes by outflying the explosion forcing it to do diddly squat for damage. Its the whole reason why you don't use citadel torpedoes against interceptors. That's damage reduction, not a miss, as I pointed out. Obviously such comparisons of Citadels vs Frig class ships is not exactly translatable to Dust anyways. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 839	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:15:00 - [30] - Quote @ Rattati Not going to disagree with your experiences, but do you mind if I try to put them into context? Any competent tanker will more often or not simply drive away. Vet tankers are also used to the ins and outs of AV, they know gunlogis are the most effective defense against swarms, the most common AV, and PLCs are too rare to really be taken as a legit threat. The biggest threat to a tank has always been another tank. This lead to rapid cull of militia/ part time tankers. Its only a tough solid core of tankers left from the 1.7 tank bonanza. Also, you need some significant alpha to kill a tank on the first go. A vet tanker knows he has the hp to survive alpha vs 1 AV. VS 2 AV the balance is in the AVs favor, time to retreat and pick them off. Its a wierd sort of balance where 1 tank beats 1 AV but two AV beat 1 tank. On your suits, Minandos wreck dropships because of high sustained damage, and dropship have only open sky to hide behind. Shield tanks can negate most of that damage and turn a corner to getaway. Since you're a big gallente fan i'm surprised your not useing a proto galmando for AV PLC. It has high HP, high native regen, +10% damage, + 10% reload speed, throw on a breach AR and a K2 and you have a much better chance than running up at a tank with a scout. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7137	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:18:00 - [31] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: @ Rattati Not going to disagree with your experiences, but do you mind if I try to put them into context? Any competent tanker will more often or not simply drive away. Vet tankers are also used to the ins and outs of AV, they know gunlogis are the most effective defense against swarms, the most common AV, and PLCs are too rare to really be taken as a legit threat. The biggest threat to a tank has always been another tank. This lead to rapid cull of militia/ part time tankers. Its only a tough solid core of tankers left from the 1.7 tank bonanza. Also, you need some significant alpha to kill a tank on the first go. A vet tanker knows he has the hp to survive alpha vs 1 AV. VS 2 AV the balance is in the AVs favor, time to retreat and pick them off. Its a wierd sort of balance where 1 tank beats 1 AV but two AV beat 1 tank. On your suits, Minandos wreck dropships because of high sustained damage, and dropship have only open sky to hide behind. Shield tanks can negate most of that damage and turn a corner to getaway. Since you're a big gallente fan i'm surprised your not useing a proto galmando for AV PLC. It has high HP, high native regen, +10% damage, + 10% reload speed, throw on a breach AR and a K2 and you have a much better chance than running up at a tank with a scout. Proto galmando shares the same difficulty getting into an optimal firing position as a sentinel. His choice of the scout is tactically sound. AV
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4929	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:22:00 - [32] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Proto galmando shares the same difficulty getting into an optimal firing position as a sentinel. His choice of the scout is tactically sound. If gaining optimal position is the goal, Scout is actually pretty legit. If you're going for raw DPS with a PLC, Nothing can come close to the Gallmando. They both have merit and it comes down more so to personal playstyle. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:24:00 - [33] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 945	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:25:00 - [34] - Quote Although I have more success than Rattati on the Infantry AV side , I think it proves another painful point, there is just a lack of AV weapons in general, and especially so for Shield tanks. The Plasma cannon really just isn't effeective - people have their likes/dislikes about the curved trajectory, but what it needs is a damage boost and a speed boost to the projectile to become the de-facto shield destroyer. The forge gun hits hard, but has just so many disadvantages compared to swarms now.... mostly because swarms can be run by many suits, and the commando suit excels at them, especially the minmando.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:27:00 - [35] - Quote GLOBAL RAGE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Last night my ADD or OCD kicked and I wasted 8-9 Cal SCTs, proto nades, cmplx dmg mds x2, adv swarms. I got the tank after I surrounded him (Crotchgrab360). Tankers can hear way too much and swarms should be faster in flight. AV Flux nades? We hear too much? That's experience. Should we not be allowed to use gaming headsets? Should the volume lower itself when in a vehicle? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 840	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:30:00 - [36] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. You , as well as any vehicle AV or infantry AV, should not either stop or be satisfied at "drive off", but its up to you to pursue the tank and destroy it. Thats true for both tankers, ADS's and AV when engaging a tank. Fighting from a fixed point is good for area denial, but once the area has been denied, can't really expect most tanks that survived the ambush to come back to the same spot. Which is why we have damage points, rewards everybody for the ones that got away. Its the same vs Infantry. Scout/ min assaults may use speed to simply run away when in trouble. If i don't chase him/her down an kill them, thats on me, not the assault suit. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
MetalWolf-Cell ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 29	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:33:00 - [37] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. I see more of driving them away as making them useless. If there is 2 or more AV on the field in a domination, and he has to sit on a objective for his team so he can protect the hackers. The AV fire at him and he drives off, rinse and repeat. He is now useless, he can't help his teammates at all and now he has 2 options: A) keep going and hope for the best, or B) swap the tank and go infantry. That's how I look at it, since I seen this happen many times. However, I agree with you, it shouldn't always stop at "Drive-off" there should be potential to kill it always. after all it is ANTI-VEHICLE. It should always have the potential to kill a pilot. Making them powerful is good, however there would have to be adjustments to vehicles if going that route is a must. We don't need war point pinatas and vehicles only being used by the balls of steel elite. DUST 514/LEGION
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4930	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:37:00 - [38] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? facepalm The reason an AV weapon would cause a vehicle pilot to be driven off IS BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT TO KILL HIM. If a weapon isn't lethal, it's not going to drive off anyone. Otherwise people would just carry around a bag of cotton balls in order to throw to drive off muggers. "Get back or I'll swab you!" "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7137	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:42:00 - [39] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? why have dropsuits at all? the red dots can kill me in them! Why have LAVs at all? The red dots can kill me in them! Why have... It's a BATTLE SIMULATION! NOT A GODDAMNED TANK LOVER FAIRYLAND! AV
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 81	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:42:00 - [40] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: GLOBAL RAGE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Last night my ADD or OCD kicked and I wasted 8-9 Cal SCTs, proto nades, cmplx dmg mds x2, adv swarms. I got the tank after I surrounded him (Crotchgrab360). Tankers can hear way too much and swarms should be faster in flight. AV Flux nades? We hear too much? That's experience. Should we not be allowed to use gaming headsets? Should the volume lower itself when in a vehicle? The pilots sound quality and external volume should be nerfed and localized vehicle noise and on-board weapon report buffed.

tritan abbattere DBAG CORE 36	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:43:00 - [41] - Quote Brush Master wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Are you running with a squad? I think this threads shows the large gaps between the perception and skill gaps of players. AV nades, yes, they need the amount carried increased. I will also point out that every time we buff AV to deal with tanks we majorly effect Dropships as they are not tanks and are hit by the same AV weapons plus are much more exposed. To me, I think weapons need to be a bit more specialized, like short range swarms with massive damage with lower tracking and long range swarms with less damage and better tracking. I was thinking for swarms you have the lock on time change based on the vehicle in question.. Kinda like the lock on system in EVE. Your swarm launcher has a Sensor strength and your vehicle Signature size. Dropships and LAVs could have this lowered while tanks have same lock on time. This could be another balancing factor for AV. Could even add Passive and active ewar to tanks to complement this system. I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4930	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:44:00 - [42] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? why have dropsuits at all? the red dots can kill me in them! Why have LAVs at all? The red dots can kill me in them! Why have... It's a BATTLE SIMULATION! NOT A GODDAMNED TANK LOVER FAIRYLAND! Spkr's ideal AV weapon. The Swab Launcher. Fires harmless cotton balls at enemy vehicles. They don't do damage but the sound of cotton relentlessly bouncing off of the tanks hull will annoy them into submission and cause them to drive off. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:02:00 - [43] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? facepalm The reason an AV weapon would cause a vehicle pilot to be driven off IS BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT TO KILL HIM. If a weapon isn't lethal, it's not going to drive off anyone. Otherwise people would just carry around a bag of cotton balls in order to throw to drive off muggers. "Get back or I'll swab you!" Again, what's the point of vehicles if they get destroyed so quickly? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2379	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:03:00 - [44] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? facepalm The reason an AV weapon would cause a vehicle pilot to be driven off IS BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT TO KILL HIM. If a weapon isn't lethal, it's not going to drive off anyone. Otherwise people would just carry around a bag of cotton balls in order to throw to drive off muggers. "Get back or I'll swab you!" Again, what's the point of vehicles if they get destroyed so quickly? Whats the point of AV if it doesn't destroy vehicles? Home at Last <3
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:04:00 - [45] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? why have dropsuits at all? the red dots can kill me in them! Why have LAVs at all? The red dots can kill me in them! Why have... It's a BATTLE SIMULATION! NOT A GODDAMNED TANK LOVER FAIRYLAND! Anything a vehicle can do, infantry can do 10x better, except taking good links off a roof. Again, what's the point of vehicles in that case? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Varoth Drac State of Purgatory General Tso's Alliance 584	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:06:00 - [46] - Quote Gotta say, whilst I don't think AV is necessarily op, I dont find destroying tanks terribly difficult. I think this is because it is quite rare to have a 1v1 av vs tank battle. Normally it's a mix of multiple tanks and av. In such a situation av can usually focus fire, greatly increasing the chance of a kill. Most of the time tanks are driven away, but they usually die eventually, at some point, unless they recall.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4930	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:08:00 - [47] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Anything a vehicle can do, infantry can do 10x better, except taking good links off a roof. Again, what's the point of vehicles in that case? And thus you've finally reached the point of the conversation where everyone has been saying "Vehicles need a more defined role on the battlefield." Congrats. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:08:00 - [48] - Quote GLOBAL RAGE wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: GLOBAL RAGE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Last night my ADD or OCD kicked and I wasted 8-9 Cal SCTs, proto nades, cmplx dmg mds x2, adv swarms. I got the tank after I surrounded him (Crotchgrab360). Tankers can hear way too much and swarms should be faster in flight. AV Flux nades? We hear too much? That's experience. Should we not be allowed to use gaming headsets? Should the volume lower itself when in a vehicle? The pilots sound quality and external volume should be nerfed and localized vehicle noise and on-board weapon report buffed. I should have suggested killing 3rd person view. 3rd person in Gran Turismo is for scrubs..lol Find a different game to kill. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 81	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:14:00 - [49] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? why have dropsuits at all? the red dots can kill me in them! Why have LAVs at all? The red dots can kill me in them! Why have... It's a BATTLE SIMULATION! NOT A GODDAMNED TANK LOVER FAIRYLAND! Anything a vehicle can do, infantry can do 10x better, except taking good links off a roof. Again, what's the point of vehicles in that case? good roof links? I despise links placed up high, GD idiots play like monkeys and get their team killed. go up high and you win fail, uplinks are disposable and replacable, respawns are not.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:15:00 - [50] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? why have dropsuits at all? the red dots can kill me in them! Why have LAVs at all? The red dots can kill me in them! Why have... It's a BATTLE SIMULATION! NOT A GODDAMNED TANK LOVER FAIRYLAND! Spkr's ideal AV weapon. The Swab Launcher. Fires harmless cotton balls at enemy vehicles. They don't do damage but the sound of cotton relentlessly bouncing off of the tanks hull will annoy them into submission and cause them to drive off. When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:19:00 - [51] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? facepalm The reason an AV weapon would cause a vehicle pilot to be driven off IS BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT TO KILL HIM. If a weapon isn't lethal, it's not going to drive off anyone. Otherwise people would just carry around a bag of cotton balls in order to throw to drive off muggers. "Get back or I'll swab you!" Again, what's the point of vehicles if they get destroyed so quickly? Whats the point of AV if it doesn't destroy vehicles? Why should infantry so easily solo a vehicle? What's the staying power and purpose of a vehicle if it can't assault or defend a point? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2380	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:20:00 - [52] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? why have dropsuits at all? the red dots can kill me in them! Why have LAVs at all? The red dots can kill me in them! Why have... It's a BATTLE SIMULATION! NOT A GODDAMNED TANK LOVER FAIRYLAND! Spkr's ideal AV weapon. The Swab Launcher. Fires harmless cotton balls at enemy vehicles. They don't do damage but the sound of cotton relentlessly bouncing off of the tanks hull will annoy them into submission and cause them to drive off. When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? It is strongly implied in every syllable of every word you contribute to the forums. Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2380	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:21:00 - [53] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Whats the point of AV if it doesn't destroy vehicles? Why should infantry so easily solo a vehicle? What's the staying power and purpose of a vehicle if it can't assault or defend a point? Chasing away infantry for 10-15 seconds at a time. Home at Last <3
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 81	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:22:00 - [54] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: GLOBAL RAGE wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: GLOBAL RAGE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Last night my ADD or OCD kicked and I wasted 8-9 Cal SCTs, proto nades, cmplx dmg mds x2, adv swarms. I got the tank after I surrounded him (Crotchgrab360). Tankers can hear way too much and swarms should be faster in flight. AV Flux nades? We hear too much? That's experience. Should we not be allowed to use gaming headsets? Should the volume lower itself when in a vehicle? The pilots sound quality and external volume should be nerfed and localized vehicle noise and on-board weapon report buffed. I should have suggested killing 3rd person view. 3rd person in Gran Turismo is for scrubs..lol Find a different game to kill. HAHA I was the 5th or 6th poster on the original DUST514.net site and have my Mordus E-MAIL...lol. Wow, you challenged a GT pro...lol, if I ever see you in a tank...BOOM! I heard you take it up the tail pipe like a pro.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4930	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:23:00 - [55] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:23:00 - [56] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Anything a vehicle can do, infantry can do 10x better, except taking good links off a roof. Again, what's the point of vehicles in that case? And thus you've finally reached the point of the conversation where everyone has been saying "Vehicles need a more defined role on the battlefield." Congrats. Of course they don't have a role. Skirmish 1.0 is gone, and vehicles have been marginalized for 3 years. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:24:00 - [57] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Deterrent =/= useless Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 840	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:25:00 - [58] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Inb4 spkr, The correct answer is zero. Never assume there is only one swarmer. But that's my incubus instinct kicking in when i'm tanking. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4930	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:26:00 - [59] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Deterrent =/= useless That's not a number. Answer my question. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4930	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:28:00 - [60] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Inb4 spkr, The correct answer is zero. Never assume there is only one swarmer. But that's my incubus instinct kicking in when i'm tanking. Thats very true, but again this is speaking in a general sense. Obviously if there are 2, the time would be half, and if there are 3, the time would be a third. I just want to hear what his idea of a reasonable TTK per AVer is. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:33:00 - [61] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Deterrent =/= useless That's not a number. Answer my question. There is no number. Deterrent is not the same as useless. Proxy mines work great. A pair of forges work great. A pair of swarms work great on a straight line. Why do pilots have to tell you how to destroy us? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4930	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:35:00 - [62] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Deterrent =/= useless That's not a number. Answer my question. There is no number. Deterrent is not the same as useless. Proxy mines work great. A pair of forges work great. A pair of swarms work great on a straight line. Why do pilots have to tell you how to destroy us? So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
NINEinch WEAPON WarRavens Capital Punishment. 55	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:36:00 - [63] - Quote The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? "winning" an inch at a time
Gabriel Ceja Ready to Play 89	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:36:00 - [64] - Quote I'm not sure about when the new tanks come out but with the status quo AV is in a pretty good spot the problem is not the AV because you never hear about a armor tank, DS, or ADS that they couldn't kill because it ate their swarms. The problem according to most threads like this is the shield tanks that can just stand there and take the beating but even the tanks itself is not to blame it is the ability to stack shield hardeners. When shield hardeners are stacked swarms can no longer do enough damage to stop the shield regen from kicking in so if anything the best thing to do is not allow hardeners to be stacked, even if it does lower the already scarce fitting options, because it's not only a problem for AV but it also poses a problem to armor tank users. The stacking of hardeners is also an imbalance among tanks because if you think swarms look bad hitting a harden stacked shield tank you should see how pitiful the large blaster turret is against a tank like that. "Throw on the flux capacitor." activates fuel injector "WOOOOOO!!!"
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4931	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:40:00 - [65] - Quote NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? You have to shoot for balancing around the average skill level. Obviously if people are idiots they're going to die easier, and if they're really good they're going to be harder to kill. In reality you can't balance against player skill, but in design you just assume average skill to minimize large disparities due to skill. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2169	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:07:00 - [66] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I can be on at midnight Friday night my time. I can show you what a tank can do to enemies. Like get wrecked by malleus? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:22:00 - [67] - Quote Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
DDx77 The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 125	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:23:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. --- You have highlighted every single problem I have with av. The worst is getting picked off by other infantry while trying to lock on a hav. - half the time it is the driver or a secondary player that leaves the vehicle to kill me I think the main issue is the large blaster. No matter how much you reduce dispertion, players will always try to use it to farm infantry. What if (in an alt universe:)......remove that weapon but buff small turrets. Especially small rail so they can target high targets. Or turn it into a infantry shield killing weapon/ emp vehicle disable tool? You've probably noticed that when there are two or more capable hav the match quickly turns into a stomp. In general I have found it best when not in a coordinated team to not chase any hav. Use speed to get in a good position and run away as needed but wait for the hav to come to you. I am using: C/1 scout All dmg mods Cloak Kin cat Adv swarms Ps....please please please remove bandwidth from proxy mines and re's - for av purposes Boosting : Allowing the server to protect people from other countries from taking damage
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:23:00 - [69] - Quote NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? We can't always hear them. Experience can't be factored in. Experience leads to nerfs. We get handicapped because we have experience. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7137	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:26:00 - [70] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable learn to do math. I's significantly more than 5 seconds. AV

DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15722	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:28:00 - [71] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. Please just keep in mind that dropships aren't tanks, and if you go buffing AV without compensating our HP (or bringing back native resists) we will die to math in most engagements with no opportunity to evade said firey, mathematic fate. My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7138	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:29:00 - [72] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? We can't always hear them. Experience can't be factored in. Experience leads to nerfs. We get handicapped because we have experience. experience has nothing to do with it. I actually fought a good tanker who supported their squad and was supported by them. gunnlogi surived on fire with a sliver of armor at the EoM. so precisely what difficulty are you having surviving AV if you're as slick as you think you are? AV
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:29:00 - [73] - Quote Gabriel Ceja wrote: I'm not sure about when the new tanks come out but with the status quo AV is in a pretty good spot the problem is not the AV because you never hear about a armor tank, DS, or ADS that they couldn't kill because it ate their swarms. The problem according to most threads like this is the shield tanks that can just stand there and take the beating but even the tanks itself is not to blame it is the ability to stack shield hardeners. When shield hardeners are stacked swarms can no longer do enough damage to stop the shield regen from kicking in so if anything the best thing to do is not allow hardeners to be stacked, even if it does lower the already scarce fitting options, because it's not only a problem for AV but it also poses a problem to armor tank users. The stacking of hardeners is also an imbalance among tanks because if you think swarms look bad hitting a harden stacked shield tank you should see how pitiful the large blaster turret is against a tank like that. Swarms kill the regen with 2 hardeners active. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 841	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:32:00 - [74] - Quote NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? Thats a tough one, and i don't think anybody in dust has a satisfactory answer. The nature of the infantry gameplay and vehicle gameplay are just so wildly different, and unique just to dust because of the isk player economy. Because of whichVehicle priority is about surviving first and getting kills second. Infantry priority is getting kills first and surviving second. I can illustrate it like this: Getting 20-6 in a infantry suit is considered at worst pretty good match. 20-6 for a tanker is, well utterly disasterous. Vehicles will never have a similar k/d ration or metric as infantry. If you cant keep your tank/dropship alive on a consistent basis, then you can't afford to tank or fly. The metrics i'm aware of is only good for an approximation. You can tell if numbers are far out of line, but only within a limitied context. Like the "godmode" dropships seemed to enjoy to players who didnt fly or used swarms felt hardmode to anybody in the air. Swarmers assumed because dropships escaped from them dropships never died, Pilots assumed they always died to everything except swarms. Escaping swarms took little skill then, and getting hit by swarms takes little skill now. Niether scenario has still been balanced. Or Tank spam post 1.7 was when powerful expensive rare tanks became powerfull cheap spammable tanks, which lead to nerfing every aspect of the then most common tank, the armor blaster. Reps, hardner, turret and speed took a hit, and its hard counter, the large missile turret got a major buff. Now people rarely use the armor tank anymore. Getting armor tanks balanced again has been going on since the end of 2014. All everyone has to go on is rough guidlines on kill/spawn and anecdotal evidence from each balance pass. Since the "feeling" in will always be a bit subjective, we just have to roll with the punches and try to make as good an argument we can about how our individual subjective experiences can work out for the general group of dut gamers. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:36:00 - [75] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I can be on at midnight Friday night my time. I can show you what a tank can do to enemies. Like get wrecked by malleus? I wasn't soloed. What part about that don't you understand? It takes 2 or more to take me out in most cases: 2 tanks, 2 AV, combo of the two. You just don't accept that I have extensive experience. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2380	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:37:00 - [76] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? We can't always hear them. Experience can't be factored in. Experience leads to nerfs. We get handicapped because we have experience. experience has nothing to do with it. I actually fought a good tanker who supported their squad and was supported by them. gunnlogi surived on fire with a sliver of armor at the EoM. so precisely what difficulty are you having surviving AV if you're as slick as you think you are? He just doesn't want to die or use teamwork, while insisting AVers die to him easily and require teamwork to kill him. Home at Last <3
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:39:00 - [77] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable learn to do math. I's significantly more than 5 seconds. Switching to a second swarm is 0 reload time. Play the game more than once every 3 months. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7140	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:42:00 - [78] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable learn to do math. I's significantly more than 5 seconds. Switching to a second swarm is 0 reload time. Play the game more than once every 3 months. basing your argument on an outlier fit that's rarely used isn't valid for setting the discussion standard. Learn to talk to people without being a douche. AV
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2380	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:43:00 - [79] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I can be on at midnight Friday night my time. I can show you what a tank can do to enemies. Like get wrecked by malleus? I wasn't soloed. What part about that don't you understand? It takes 2 or more to take me out in most cases: 2 tanks, 2 AV, combo of the two. You just don't accept that I have extensive experience. Then why do you always cry about vehicles being underpowered when, from your own mouth, it usually takes 2+ people to kill you? I don't get where you are coming from here. Are you a skilled player that 1v2s regularly, or a whiner? You can't be both without being an *******. Home at Last <3
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4932	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:43:00 - [80] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable learn to do math. I's significantly more than 5 seconds. Lol he's crying about a Minmatar Commando...with two swarm launchers? Let's talk about what benefit that actually offers. -10% Damage Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -25% Reload Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -Carrying two swarms basically means you save a couple fractions of a second between the third salvo and the 4th salvo by skipping the reload and switching to the other swarm. However the time savings is fairy small given the fact that the reload is already shortened from skills/bonuses. In exchange, the double swarm Commando literally has zero way to counter any infantry whatsoever. Unless I guess he wants to bring a fist to a gun fight and punch them to death. Like you're literally crying about a suit specifically designed to to kill armor tanks, so specialized in fact that it can't even defend itself against infantry, and you're upset that you died in 5 salvos because you somehow managed to never turn your hardener on during that entire time of being hit? You're actually upset....that a suit custom tailored to kill you, finished you off too quickly, because you were in your weakest, unhardened state? Not sure if I should laugh or just pity you. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 981	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:44:00 - [81] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. Different angle: How many vehicles should a pilot expect to lose in a typical public skirmish match? My favorite Myron comes in at ~180k ISK. I typically make less than that per match because I seldomly have the time to squad up and mCRUs are still bugged. That means I do my financial planning based on the hypothesis that I lose 1 or less DS per match. On the other hand catching AV-fire, including rail-HAVs, happens anywhere between 3-20 times a match (roughly guessing here...). That means, if I want to believe that flying dropships is financially stable, I need to expect AV have a 5-33% chance of killing me per engagement. That in turn means I must expect AV to be a deterrent to me at most. Thus, to provide a short answer: Due to the price of vehicles. By the way, this argument doesn't mean I expect to be able to withstand AV no problems. I gladly accept that, as soon as I had any chance to realize that someone spawned an AV fit, I need to gtfo and stay reasonably far away (>150 m). This is the direct counter to my role, after all. In turn, if you didn't bring any AV you need to stay out of open areas if you hear the DS-noise to avoid being blown up. That seems fair. Thus, to answer the other question about how long a pilot should be able to linger after becoming aware of AV: About 1 second sounds reasonable. If I hesitate any longer I should be required to considerably out-play the other player if I want to survive. Notice how this includes the fact that any time two (competently skilled) AV join up I accept defeat with no chance to counteract. This seems fair, even if very frustrating as a pilot.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 841	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:53:00 - [82] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Lol he's crying about a Minmatar Commando...with two swarm launchers? Let's talk about what benefit that actually offers. -10% Damage Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -25% Reload Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -Carrying two swarms basically means you save a couple fractions of a second between the third salvo and the 4th salvo by skipping the reload and switching to the other swarm. However the time savings is fairy small given the fact that the reload is already shortened from skills/bonuses. In exchange, the double swarm Commando literally has zero way to counter any infantry whatsoever. Unless I guess he wants to bring a fist to a gun fight and punch them to death. Like you're literally crying about a suit specifically designed to to kill armor tanks, so specialized in fact that it can't even defend itself against infantry, and you're upset that you died in 5 salvos because you somehow managed to never turn your hardener on during that entire time of being hit? You're actually upset....that a suit custom tailored to kill you, finished you off too quickly, because you were in your weakest, unhardened state? Not sure if I should laugh or just pity you. I'm going to stick up spkr here, albeit in a limited fashion. I would livid at a double swarm minando on a rooftop. That being said, thats the rarest form of AV i have seen or heard of. I would call it one a in a million but there arent that many people on dust. Non hardened armor tanks are regular enough. Dual swarm minandos, no way. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7141	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:57:00 - [83] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Lol he's crying about a Minmatar Commando...with two swarm launchers? Let's talk about what benefit that actually offers. -10% Damage Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -25% Reload Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -Carrying two swarms basically means you save a couple fractions of a second between the third salvo and the 4th salvo by skipping the reload and switching to the other swarm. However the time savings is fairy small given the fact that the reload is already shortened from skills/bonuses. In exchange, the double swarm Commando literally has zero way to counter any infantry whatsoever. Unless I guess he wants to bring a fist to a gun fight and punch them to death. Like you're literally crying about a suit specifically designed to to kill armor tanks, so specialized in fact that it can't even defend itself against infantry, and you're upset that you died in 5 salvos because you somehow managed to never turn your hardener on during that entire time of being hit? You're actually upset....that a suit custom tailored to kill you, finished you off too quickly, because you were in your weakest, unhardened state? Not sure if I should laugh or just pity you. I'm going to stick up spkr here, albeit in a limited fashion. I would livid at a double swarm minando on a rooftop. That being said, thats the rarest form of AV i have seen or heard of. I would call it one a in a million but there arent that many people on dust. Non hardened armor tanks are regular enough. Dual swarm minandos, no way. He's literally crying that the outlier justifies his claims that everything else in AV is broken. AV
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:01:00 - [84] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? We can't always hear them. Experience can't be factored in. Experience leads to nerfs. We get handicapped because we have experience. experience has nothing to do with it. I actually fought a good tanker who supported their squad and was supported by them. gunnlogi surived on fire with a sliver of armor at the EoM. so precisely what difficulty are you having surviving AV if you're as slick as you think you are? I'm frequently solo, but as I said, yes, experience does matter, as it has saved me many times. I don't usually have infantry backup, or tank backup. So yes, experience does matter. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4933	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:01:00 - [85] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: He's literally crying that the outlier justifies his claims that everything else in AV is broken. That's basically my point. I mean if you really want to get technical, a Gallmando with 2 Officer PLC can pop a shield tank in a couple seconds, but that doesn't mean Plasma cannons are innately broken. He's also taking an extreme case both in terms of a high specialized anti-armor AV suit vs a Madrugar which is widely regarded as being very underpowered compared to the Gunnlogi, and putting it in its weakest, unhardened state. Im not saying swarms don't need work, because I think they do, but I don't like when people cherry pick ultra extreme examples and then portray it as the norm or the average. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1270	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:03:00 - [86] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Depends on the tank type. Sure against a shield tank it's like hitting a brick wall. I know as I have run those exclusively for quite some time now. PLC is like impossible to apply consistent damage, though I came across a PLC user that really gave me quite a run for my money. Though for the most part they end as you describe it. Swarms on shields are mostly ineffective as well, even pro swarms and prof 4 (which doesn't do anything against shield tanks), it's a struggle to down even a SICA at times. And have you run across a shield tank running double smalls? You want to talk frustrating (I have seen it from both perspectives). Though if you throw in another swarm launcher or other AV source you WILL push that tank back. Unless it has a death wish (or good gunners) Get an armor tank out there though and it's a WHOLE different story. I don't even bother running armor anymore, because using one means eventual death. They turn like brick, take a while to get going and pretty much everything does HUGE BONUS DAMAGE. And forget running smalls to help out, just end up hurting yourself more losing all that tank to do it. EVERYONE I know and other tankers I have talked to all say the same thing. At one time they were big fans of armor tanks but all of them have had to migrate over to the gunnlogi. And rare is it they actually pull out armor, making it even harder on any AV out there. That said, I've had much more success than yourself against tanks running pro swarms. Not much more but I do have a few kills under my belt. Best suggestion is to run an LAV, using it to close distance and maintain it when needed. Or hell, use the damn thing as bait, calling another one in as they try to destroy the first one. Keeps them occupied and a little confused. But like I said before, this grand master plan of yours is just going to result in exactly the same thing when 1.6 hit. You aren't even balancing anything. You are basically starting from scratch for like the 3rd time now. Address the issues we have now and balance from there. Things are close to being balanced as it is, tanks are not utter crap as many have mentioned (as you yourself have seen), and yes we do need variety. Fix some of the glaring issues at hand first and build from there. So sick of these "do overs". Take our main battle tanks now, balance em out, then shift that balance proportionately in the direction you want for the new variants UHAV +25% armor, -25 large turret damage, -15% speed, +10% resist. Pulling stuff from my butt yes, but you really need a base line IE current tanks, then start doing the give and take tango for other variants. So fix current imbalances first please:) But keep in mind tanks are not totally useless at the moment. If you ever need proof, jump in my tank or another good driver running guns. Get good with those small rails and marvel at what a difference a tank can make on the outcome of a match. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2862	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:05:00 - [87] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. You should try the Forge Gun. Pretty much anything that's not a damage-modded proto FG doesn't even stand a chance. I have Proficiency V with 2 damage mods and I have trouble killing Sicas. I can't even imagine some newbie that's speccing into Forges for the first time feels like. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2903	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:10:00 - [88] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? We can't always hear them. Experience can't be factored in. Experience leads to nerfs. We get handicapped because we have experience. experience has nothing to do with it. I actually fought a good tanker who supported their squad and was supported by them. gunnlogi surived on fire with a sliver of armor at the EoM. so precisely what difficulty are you having surviving AV if you're as slick as you think you are? He just doesn't want to die or use teamwork, while insisting AVers die to him easily and require teamwork to kill him. Where did I say I don't want to die? It's inevitable in a huge target. I use teamwork, like in a Python when they were still good because I had my own SP into them. Where did I say I want infantry to die easily to me? You're literally pulling BS out of thin air, accusing me of things I've never said Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1271	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:12:00 - [89] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Anything a vehicle can do, infantry can do 10x better, except taking good links off a roof. Again, what's the point of vehicles in that case? And thus you've finally reached the point of the conversation where everyone has been saying "Vehicles need a more defined role on the battlefield." Congrats. Ever run a gunnlogi with double shield hardeners and a complex extender or double complex extenders and a single hardener with 2 small proto rails? The role becomes quite clear, killin infantry. Of course most maps don't allow for this too often given infantry's mobility in enclose areas over the tanks. And lots and lots of cover. But when you get a bridge map or other open map, you better look the ** out, cause I'm gonna ** something up. I've taken to physically switching to my top gun to kill infantry, leaving my large rail to take down big targets. Hmm and nothing sweeter than taking a tank down with a combination of your main gun, overheating it, then switching to the small to finish them off. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2903	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:15:00 - [90] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable learn to do math. I's significantly more than 5 seconds. Switching to a second swarm is 0 reload time. Play the game more than once every 3 months. basing your argument on an outlier fit that's rarely used isn't valid for setting the discussion standard. Learn to talk to people without being a douche. So you instantly dismiss it because you don't use it. Great argument you have there. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2903	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:19:00 - [91] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Then why do you always cry about vehicles being underpowered when, from your own mouth, it usually takes 2+ people to kill you? I don't get where you are coming from here. Are you a skilled player that 1v2s regularly, or a whiner? You can't be both without being an *******. 1. Experience 2. Experience 3. Experience Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 15588	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:21:00 - [92] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: So you instantly dismiss it because you don't use it. Great argument you have there. No, he instantly dismisses it because the odds of you facing someone with Dual Swarms is so low that it could be considered comical, and that dual swarms itself is so impractical that it is to be considered comical. Its a valid argument. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 841	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:21:00 - [93] - Quote You know guys, since the HAV and Turret feedback threads closed, I was wondering how long it would take for threads like these crop up. Ahhhh, so familiar. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7142	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:24:00 - [94] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: You know guys, since the HAV and Turret feedback threads closed, I was wondering how long it would take for threads like these crop up. Ahhhh, so familiar. Another episode of Spkr4thedead versus everyone else per usual. nothing to see here. AV
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4933	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:25:00 - [95] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Anything a vehicle can do, infantry can do 10x better, except taking good links off a roof. Again, what's the point of vehicles in that case? And thus you've finally reached the point of the conversation where everyone has been saying "Vehicles need a more defined role on the battlefield." Congrats. Ever run a gunnlogi with double shield hardeners and a complex extender or double complex extenders and a single hardener with 2 small proto rails? The role becomes quite clear, killin infantry. Of course most maps don't allow for this too often given infantry's mobility in enclose areas over the tanks. And lots and lots of cover. But when you get a bridge map or other open map, you better look the ** out, cause I'm gonna something up. I've taken to physically switching to my top gun to kill infantry, leaving my large rail to take down big targets. Hmm and nothing sweeter than taking a tank down with a combination of your main gun, overheating it, then switching to the small to finish them off. I have actually, those small rails do serious work on infantry. And I love swapping between my large and small to deal with different sized targets, it's a tactic that many AVers seem to get tripped up on which makes it all that much more effective. I was however speaking in a general sense that all vehicles can't simply be focused around killing infantry, namely because you start to run into issues where a vehicle performs more like a powerup instead of an alternate role. It's important to establish what each type of player can do and what they cannot do, and try to build a system where all of the bases get covered and everything has a means to counter each other, depending on the individual situation. So for example an HAV can't get into tiny spaces or climb ladders, but in exchange they're effectively immune to nearly all weapons in the game save a handful. Inversely, they're big and easy to hit with those AV weapons, but can also move far faster than infantry and have a longer TTK. There are tons of factors involved which makes balancing more difficult, but it also means that there is more to it than simply damage vs HP. The numbers are important but it's also important to take the maps and weapon performance into account. If you've ever taken a statistics class you'll know that you always throw out ouliers, which is why extreme examples or overly anecdotal evidence needs to be ignored. Whats important is looking at the general performance across a wide spread of settings and situations in order to get a proper feel for what the whole story is. "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 370	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:29:00 - [96] - Quote The Plasma Cannon WRECKS shields on a shield vehicle. Hits harder than most forge guns when it comes to damage. Definitely not UP. Most swarms my shields can shrug off a great deal of damage from my hardener, but that PLC can still burst through some of that hardener. As for killing tanks, due to CCP breaking the Madrugar, most people have been running the Shield tank, and with current meta, it is more survivable. With more SP and experience, one can be tough to kill. I notice that it takes very organized AV to down me and I am okay with that. I recommend Rattati if you are hunting tanks to bring a squad that can support you on the hunt. Mixed AV with some form of rail tank and you will make short work of a tank. If all else fails, fit up a Jihad Jeep and you can put the fear of fiery death into most tankers.
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 370	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:31:00 - [97] - Quote Oh gawd more vehicle nerfs incoming. >.< Infantry who don't know the role talking about the role that people have been practicing and skilling into about to screw it up some more.
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 370	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:35:00 - [98] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Atiim wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. That's because you were fighting people who know how to use a vehicle. The OP is not one of those people. Says a guy that thinks because he has SP into vehicles, that makes him a tanker. Oh, and my crazy month of PC experience > your assumptions based on very little experience. I've got plenty of PC tanking experience. Not that enjoyable to be honest. Vehicles in PC are more like cherries on a cake. One can get to killing a lot of infantry and holding a point, but there is always that nagging feeling that you are just killing the other teams tanks lol.
Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 294	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:35:00 - [99] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? why have dropsuits at all? the red dots can kill me in them! Why have LAVs at all? The red dots can kill me in them! Why have... It's a BATTLE SIMULATION! NOT A GODDAMNED TANK LOVER FAIRYLAND! Spkr's ideal AV weapon. The Swab Launcher. Fires harmless cotton balls at enemy vehicles. They don't do damage but the sound of cotton relentlessly bouncing off of the tanks hull will annoy them into submission and cause them to drive off. Still too OP for Spker they need to be nerfed meow, how do you expect balanced game if tanks are being pelted by cotton balls and causing them to drive off backwards in a straight line.... up a hill.... with 1200 shields.... and 4000 armor Sir Dukey- If one person is smart he should be able to keep vehicle at bay but not destroy it unless its a stupid driver
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 416	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:37:00 - [100] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Proto galmando shares the same difficulty getting into an optimal firing position as a sentinel. His choice of the scout is tactically sound. If gaining optimal position is the goal, Scout is actually pretty legit. If you're going for raw DPS with a PLC, Nothing can come close to the Gallmando. They both have merit and it comes down more so to personal playstyle. Scout also gains access to either remotes or cloak, and AV grenades, and much better evasion of the scans & infantry that will be trying to take a crap in your mouth the second you shoot a swarm/plc.

Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 370	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:38:00 - [101] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? why have dropsuits at all? the red dots can kill me in them! Why have LAVs at all? The red dots can kill me in them! Why have... It's a BATTLE SIMULATION! NOT A GODDAMNED TANK LOVER FAIRYLAND! Spkr's ideal AV weapon. The Swab Launcher. Fires harmless cotton balls at enemy vehicles. They don't do damage but the sound of cotton relentlessly bouncing off of the tanks hull will annoy them into submission and cause them to drive off. Still too OP for Spker they need to be nerfed meow, how do you expect balanced game if tanks are being pelted by cotton balls and causing them to drive off backwards in a straight line.... up a hill.... with 1200 shields.... and 4000 armor Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit.
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 370	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:41:00 - [102] - Quote I recommend you guys pick up either solid AV-fits to swap into, pick up a skilled rail tanker, or prepare jihad jeeps to take out a high-experience tanker. We are not Warpoint Pinatas and continuous nerfing won't make you any better. I run into groups of AV all the time. The difference between them getting me and me getting them or getting out of there is skill, coordination. Watch my routes, mix up your AV, and don't be sad if you don't get me. I won't be sad if you do catch and kill my tank. I'll "GG".
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2169	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:45:00 - [103] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. The PLC is for sure a very difficult to use weapon and while it can be used at range, typically my most successful runs with it involve me getting up close and personal with an HAV which almost always ends in my death or the HAV's death, rarely do they run at that point. Also note that when I do get an HAV kill with it, its typically because I can alpha down the shield's buffer before the hardener goes up. Once that hardener is up....good luck. I think the main problem with swarms is their concept in general. Typically Missiles in EVE are known for 2 things. 1. They're useful from their max range all the way down to 0km. They don't suffer from tracking issues, so they can target anything if its within their effective range. 2. They never miss. Damage can be reduced if the target is small/moving fast, and in exceedingly rare instances they can outrun/outrange the missiles. What this leads to is a philosophy of "Constant Sustained DPS". They don't tear targets apart like say a Blaster would with crazy close range DPS, but what they do allow is that once you start firing on the target, that target is going to sustain moderate amounts of damage for a long period of time while they try to either kill the AVer or simply outrange the enemy. I think after the range of the Swarms got castrated, the obvious assumption was that the DPS had to increase to compensate which was reasonable...but it's also not quite working right. I'm not advocating for a return to the crazy ranges we had before (What was it, 400m?) but it might be interesting to take a look at the concept for a longer range, lower DPS swarm launcher that is built more around long term sustained DPS rather than shorter range higher DPS. I think a great deal of swarm problems could be solved if they were simply required to sustain a lock and damage was buffed appropriately. Death to fire and forget. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 416	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:46:00 - [104] - Quote Gabriel Ceja wrote: I'm not sure about when the new tanks come out but with the status quo AV is in a pretty good spot the problem is not the AV because you never hear about a armor tank, DS, or ADS that they couldn't kill because it ate their swarms. The problem according to most threads like this is the shield tanks that can just stand there and take the beating but even the tanks itself is not to blame it is the ability to stack shield hardeners. When shield hardeners are stacked swarms can no longer do enough damage to stop the shield regen from kicking in so if anything the best thing to do is not allow hardeners to be stacked, even if it does lower the already scarce fitting options, because it's not only a problem for AV but it also poses a problem to armor tank users. The stacking of hardeners is also an imbalance among tanks because if you think swarms look bad hitting a harden stacked shield tank you should see how pitiful the large blaster turret is against a tank like that. Actually you can still stack hardeners on an ADS and on the... Saga II LAV I think? so that swarms cannot do enough damage to stop shield regen, effectively making the vehicle invincible while the hardeners are up (and before anyone starts the TRY THIS TRY THAT bullshit I was using a minmando with proto swarms and max dmg modding). But right now the biggest issue with vehicle balance is #1 railgun turret performance vs. dropships and #2 gunnlogi just needs to get nerfed somehow to bring it in line with the madruger.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2904	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:46:00 - [105] - Quote Atiim wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: So you instantly dismiss it because you don't use it. Great argument you have there. No, he instantly dismisses it because the odds of you facing someone with Dual Swarms is so low that it could be considered comical, and that dual swarms itself is so impractical that it is to be considered comical. Its a valid argument. Again, dismissing what I say simply because you don't like it. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17131	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:48:00 - [106] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Anything a vehicle can do, infantry can do 10x better, except taking good links off a roof. Again, what's the point of vehicles in that case? And thus you've finally reached the point of the conversation where everyone has been saying "Vehicles need a more defined role on the battlefield." Congrats. Ever run a gunnlogi with double shield hardeners and a complex extender or double complex extenders and a single hardener with 2 small proto rails? The role becomes quite clear, killin infantry. Of course most maps don't allow for this too often given infantry's mobility in enclose areas over the tanks. And lots and lots of cover. But when you get a bridge map or other open map, you better look the ** out, cause I'm gonna ** something up. I've taken to physically switching to my top gun to kill infantry, leaving my large rail to take down big targets. Hmm and nothing sweeter than taking a tank down with a combination of your main gun, overheating it, then switching to the small to finish them off. Which is ideally what you should be doing (I did it with missile and rail tanks) leaving the main to to be an anti tank/vehicle weapon. At the risk of Rattati saying "NO TRUE GODDAMNIT NO!" why are the so painfully wussy. Not in terms of stats but sounds and functionality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHfCyx5FRIs The important bit start at 1:50...... this is the kind of thing that defines a tank from an IFV. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 416	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:48:00 - [107] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: I recommend you guys pick up either solid AV-fits to swap into, pick up a skilled rail tanker, or prepare jihad jeeps to take out a high-experience tanker. We are not Warpoint Pinatas and continuous nerfing won't make you any better. I run into groups of AV all the time. The difference between them getting me and me getting them or getting out of there is skill, coordination. Watch my routes, mix up your AV, and don't be sad if you don't get me. I won't be sad if you do catch and kill my tank. I'll "GG". Your narrative of continuous nerfs is completely demolished by the simple reality that the Gunnlogi right now is basically invincible if its piloted by someone who isnt a complete moron. How do you explain how effective the gunnlogi is while still pretending tanks have been nerfed into the ground?
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 371	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:49:00 - [108] - Quote Swarm Launchers do NOT need a buff. I repeat, they are fine as they are. Work as a TEAM. You should NOT be able to easily lone wolf a tank. I need teamwork to survive, and AV should have the same weight on their shoulders.
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 371	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:51:00 - [109] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: I recommend you guys pick up either solid AV-fits to swap into, pick up a skilled rail tanker, or prepare jihad jeeps to take out a high-experience tanker. We are not Warpoint Pinatas and continuous nerfing won't make you any better. I run into groups of AV all the time. The difference between them getting me and me getting them or getting out of there is skill, coordination. Watch my routes, mix up your AV, and don't be sad if you don't get me. I won't be sad if you do catch and kill my tank. I'll "GG". Your narrative of continuous nerfs is completely demolished by the simple reality that the Gunnlogi right now is basically invincible if its piloted by someone who isnt a complete moron. How do you explain how effective the gunnlogi is while still pretending tanks have been nerfed into the ground? But current Gunnlogis AREN'T immortal. Let me let you in on a secret. Double Hardener Gunnlogi SEEMS great on the surface and I use them from time to time, but they have a key flaw. Over-reliance on the hardeners. Once those modules are on cooldown, they are HIGHLY vulnerable. Hit them with both active and they won't do anything. Here is what I've noticed to be effective against my double hardener build when I am roaming. Setting AV players along my retreat path. Usually as I am retreating, I have my hardeners down. Catch me on the retreat and you can have a treat of a tank.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2905	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:52:00 - [110] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: You know guys, since the HAV and Turret feedback threads closed, I was wondering how long it would take for threads like these crop up. Ahhhh, so familiar. Another episode of Spkr4thedead versus everyone else per usual. nothing to see here. That doesn't make you think that it's essentially 3-10 people ganging up and bullying me because I won't compromise on vehicles? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17133	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:53:00 - [111] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Swarm Launchers do NOT need a buff. I repeat, they are fine as they are. Work as a TEAM. You should NOT be able to easily lone wolf a tank. I need teamwork to survive, and AV should have the same weight on their shoulders. However that doesn't change as Vesta said that a Gunnlogi and a mild case of competency makes you effectually invincible on the field unless the JLAV'c come rolling in. That's not right. Hell I never felt like more of a scrub than when I picked up the Shield HAV...... made everything so easy and boring. Also one of your previous statements has me concerned when you talk about Railguns and skill...... you fire a round every 1.8 seconds and have very fair turret tracking values and stability. To put it into perspective you should try getting used to tanks that fire every 10.4 seconds and can't accurately be fired while on the move..... "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 371	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:54:00 - [112] - Quote I got your back bro. Haters gonna hate because they don't want to have think to take us down. We are going to think when trying to take down some infantry/tanks ;)
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 371	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:55:00 - [113] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Swarm Launchers do NOT need a buff. I repeat, they are fine as they are. Work as a TEAM. You should NOT be able to easily lone wolf a tank. I need teamwork to survive, and AV should have the same weight on their shoulders. However that doesn't change as Vesta said that a Gunnlogi and a mild case of competency makes you effectually invincible on the field unless the JLAV'c come rolling in. That's not right. Hell I never felt like more of a scrub than when I picked up the Shield HAV...... made everything so easy and boring. Also one of your previous statements has me concerned when you talk about Railguns and skill...... you fire a round every 1.8 seconds and have very fair turret tracking values and stability. To put it into perspective you should try getting used to tanks that fire every 10.4 seconds and can't accurately be fired while on the move..... I just told you they AREN'T invincible! Nerf em and watch as more tanks chill in the redline. They shouldn't be pricey pinatas for AV to mindlessly blow up.
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 371	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:57:00 - [114] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Swarm Launchers do NOT need a buff. I repeat, they are fine as they are. Work as a TEAM. You should NOT be able to easily lone wolf a tank. I need teamwork to survive, and AV should have the same weight on their shoulders. However that doesn't change as Vesta said that a Gunnlogi and a mild case of competency makes you effectually invincible on the field unless the JLAV'c come rolling in. That's not right. Hell I never felt like more of a scrub than when I picked up the Shield HAV...... made everything so easy and boring. Also one of your previous statements has me concerned when you talk about Railguns and skill...... you fire a round every 1.8 seconds and have very fair turret tracking values and stability. To put it into perspective you should try getting used to tanks that fire every 10.4 seconds and can't accurately be fired while on the move..... I am a ***** competent tanker and I use the Gunnlogi and I can confidently say they are NOT invincible if you use teamwork! For fucks sake, use your head when engaging! I have a whole squad who can spot for me as well, and I still get caught occasionally. If not caught, suppressed all to hell. What you want is a return to tanks being *** easy to kill by just about anything. Well, return our *** rail range and I'll chill in the back when you break the Gunnlogi like you guys broke the ***** Madrugar with your infantry bitching.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2905	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:01:00 - [115] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? why have dropsuits at all? the red dots can kill me in them! Why have LAVs at all? The red dots can kill me in them! Why have... It's a BATTLE SIMULATION! NOT A GODDAMNED TANK LOVER FAIRYLAND! Spkr's ideal AV weapon. The Swab Launcher. Fires harmless cotton balls at enemy vehicles. They don't do damage but the sound of cotton relentlessly bouncing off of the tanks hull will annoy them into submission and cause them to drive off. Still too OP for Spker they need to be nerfed meow, how do you expect balanced game if tanks are being pelted by cotton balls and causing them to drive off backwards in a straight line.... up a hill.... with 1200 shields.... and 4000 armor Proper placement ensures a vehicle will have a really tough time. That's why I messaged you saying to post about how hard it was for 5 swarms to kill me. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 373	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:01:00 - [116] - Quote The Madrugar is broken, we don't ******* need to break the Gunnlogi, just elevate the Madrugar to something more workable than as is. Bring the Gunnlogi down to the Madrugar's level and you will effectively force tanks, if they wish to remain ISK-positive without begging in Pubs, to be redline-snipers.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2905	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:05:00 - [117] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: I recommend you guys pick up either solid AV-fits to swap into, pick up a skilled rail tanker, or prepare jihad jeeps to take out a high-experience tanker. We are not Warpoint Pinatas and continuous nerfing won't make you any better. I run into groups of AV all the time. The difference between them getting me and me getting them or getting out of there is skill, coordination. Watch my routes, mix up your AV, and don't be sad if you don't get me. I won't be sad if you do catch and kill my tank. I'll "GG". Intelligence is OP. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17133	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:06:00 - [118] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Swarm Launchers do NOT need a buff. I repeat, they are fine as they are. Work as a TEAM. You should NOT be able to easily lone wolf a tank. I need teamwork to survive, and AV should have the same weight on their shoulders. However that doesn't change as Vesta said that a Gunnlogi and a mild case of competency makes you effectually invincible on the field unless the JLAV'c come rolling in. That's not right. Hell I never felt like more of a scrub than when I picked up the Shield HAV...... made everything so easy and boring. Also one of your previous statements has me concerned when you talk about Railguns and skill...... you fire a round every 1.8 seconds and have very fair turret tracking values and stability. To put it into perspective you should try getting used to tanks that fire every 10.4 seconds and can't accurately be fired while on the move..... I am a ***** competent tanker and I use the Gunnlogi and I can confidently say they are NOT invincible if you use teamwork! For fucks sake, use your head when engaging! I have a whole squad who can spot for me as well, and I still get caught occasionally. If not caught, suppressed all to hell. What you want is a return to tanks being *** easy to kill by just about anything. Well, return our *** rail range and I'll chill in the back when you break the Gunnlogi like you guys broke the *** Madrugar with your infantry bitching. Dude you need to get YOUR head around this. Vesta I'm pretty sure tanks. I drive tanks. I switched from the Madrugar to the Gunnlogi when I couldn't delude myself any further that the Shield HAV was statistically better in every sense than its armour counter part and that while using it could essentially be invincible. Yes I am a tanker and I am saying that I almost have to try to ** up to have AV destroy me while I use a Gunnlogi...... oddly for me I do better Anti Infantry in a Sica for some reason but that's besides the point. For what the Gunnlogi is, that being a standard or T1 tank hull, it is too cheap and too effective to justify the level of power it puts me on, especially in that it naturally has, with the current AV of Dust, great natural resistances and additional 15% more effecient resistances than its armour counter part allowing it to have the following. -Superior eHP values -165 regen sec after a manable 3-4 second cool down without the requirements of a module. -40% hardeners which are currently the cause of the superior eHP values -Better fitting stats -Better mobility attributes Putting all of these things together has yielded a tank that is understandably rather over powered. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2905	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:06:00 - [119] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. The PLC is for sure a very difficult to use weapon and while it can be used at range, typically my most successful runs with it involve me getting up close and personal with an HAV which almost always ends in my death or the HAV's death, rarely do they run at that point. Also note that when I do get an HAV kill with it, its typically because I can alpha down the shield's buffer before the hardener goes up. Once that hardener is up....good luck. I think the main problem with swarms is their concept in general. Typically Missiles in EVE are known for 2 things. 1. They're useful from their max range all the way down to 0km. They don't suffer from tracking issues, so they can target anything if its within their effective range. 2. They never miss. Damage can be reduced if the target is small/moving fast, and in exceedingly rare instances they can outrun/outrange the missiles. What this leads to is a philosophy of "Constant Sustained DPS". They don't tear targets apart like say a Blaster would with crazy close range DPS, but what they do allow is that once you start firing on the target, that target is going to sustain moderate amounts of damage for a long period of time while they try to either kill the AVer or simply outrange the enemy. I think after the range of the Swarms got castrated, the obvious assumption was that the DPS had to increase to compensate which was reasonable...but it's also not quite working right. I'm not advocating for a return to the crazy ranges we had before (What was it, 400m?) but it might be interesting to take a look at the concept for a longer range, lower DPS swarm launcher that is built more around long term sustained DPS rather than shorter range higher DPS. I think a great deal of swarm problems could be solved if they were simply required to sustain a lock and damage was buffed appropriately. Death to fire and forget. Even more damage? Jesus Christ, why is the only solution to buff AV? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 373	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:06:00 - [120] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: I recommend you guys pick up either solid AV-fits to swap into, pick up a skilled rail tanker, or prepare jihad jeeps to take out a high-experience tanker. We are not Warpoint Pinatas and continuous nerfing won't make you any better. I run into groups of AV all the time. The difference between them getting me and me getting them or getting out of there is skill, coordination. Watch my routes, mix up your AV, and don't be sad if you don't get me. I won't be sad if you do catch and kill my tank. I'll "GG". Intelligence is OP. So by infantry standards, nerf Intelligence. Got ya.

Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2380	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:07:00 - [121] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. 1 player = 1 player A single AVer should be able to stand toe to toe with any single vehicle. Stop with all this "teamwork for thee, but not for me" bullshit. Accept that 1 player should be able to kill you without too much trouble, because that's just how good FPSs work. Home at Last <3
Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 294	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:07:00 - [122] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable LOL still mad about that? well considering this: me 30m away you reversed in a straight line up and down hills: first down a hill ( gave me height advantage) your tank: shields 1200 armor 4000 (1st volly wiped your shields) Sir Dukey- If one person is smart he should be able to keep vehicle at bay but not destroy it unless its a stupid driver
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 373	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:08:00 - [123] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Swarm Launchers do NOT need a buff. I repeat, they are fine as they are. Work as a TEAM. You should NOT be able to easily lone wolf a tank. I need teamwork to survive, and AV should have the same weight on their shoulders. However that doesn't change as Vesta said that a Gunnlogi and a mild case of competency makes you effectually invincible on the field unless the JLAV'c come rolling in. That's not right. Hell I never felt like more of a scrub than when I picked up the Shield HAV...... made everything so easy and boring. Also one of your previous statements has me concerned when you talk about Railguns and skill...... you fire a round every 1.8 seconds and have very fair turret tracking values and stability. To put it into perspective you should try getting used to tanks that fire every 10.4 seconds and can't accurately be fired while on the move..... I am a ***** competent tanker and I use the Gunnlogi and I can confidently say they are NOT invincible if you use teamwork! For fucks sake, use your head when engaging! I have a whole squad who can spot for me as well, and I still get caught occasionally. If not caught, suppressed all to hell. What you want is a return to tanks being *** easy to kill by just about anything. Well, return our *** rail range and I'll chill in the back when you break the Gunnlogi like you guys broke the *** Madrugar with your infantry bitching. Dude you need to get YOUR head around this. Vesta I'm pretty sure tanks. I drive tanks. I switched from the Madrugar to the Gunnlogi when I couldn't delude myself any further that the Shield HAV was statistically better in every sense than its armour counter part and that while using it could essentially be invincible. Yes I am a tanker and I am saying that I almost have to try to ** up to have AV destroy me while I use a Gunnlogi...... oddly for me I do better Anti Infantry in a Sica for some reason but that's besides the point. For what the Gunnlogi is, that being a standard or T1 tank hull, it is too cheap and too effective to justify the level of power it puts me on, especially in that it naturally has, with the current AV of Dust, great natural resistances and additional 15% more effecient resistances than its armour counter part allowing it to have the following. -Superior eHP values -165 regen sec after a manable 3-4 second cool down without the requirements of a module. -40% hardeners which are currently the cause of the superior eHP values -Better fitting stats -Better mobility attributes Putting all of these things together has yielded a tank that is understandably rather over powered. Buff up the Madrugar, more PG, CPU, and that should do fine. Used to use Maddy for busting shields but with the removal of slots, CPU and the like, much harder to fit. Do you mean all you do is chill in redline? I mean, I could do that too if I wanted to be invincible. I've got a solid Gunnlogi, but if I roam, I can die. Makes me think you just chill near the back.
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:10:00 - [124] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. 1 player = 1 player A single AVer should be able to stand toe to toe with any single vehicle. Stop with all this "teamwork for thee, but not for me" bullshit. Accept that 1 player should be able to kill you without too much trouble, because that's just how good FPSs work. I do have to use teamwork to survive as a tank. I need my spotter to keep an eye out for drops. Infantry to handle AV, capturing nodes. And gunners on my tank for sweeping people nearby. I am NEVER running my tank solo. To easy to get ambushed and killed. If I have to use teamwork to survive against the enemy infantry and tanks, you need teamwork to handle me and my crews.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2382	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:13:00 - [125] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Swarm Launchers do NOT need a buff. I repeat, they are fine as they are. Work as a TEAM. You should NOT be able to easily lone wolf a tank. I need teamwork to survive, and AV should have the same weight on their shoulders. However that doesn't change as Vesta said that a Gunnlogi and a mild case of competency makes you effectually invincible on the field unless the JLAV'c come rolling in. That's not right. Hell I never felt like more of a scrub than when I picked up the Shield HAV...... made everything so easy and boring. Also one of your previous statements has me concerned when you talk about Railguns and skill...... you fire a round every 1.8 seconds and have very fair turret tracking values and stability. To put it into perspective you should try getting used to tanks that fire every 10.4 seconds and can't accurately be fired while on the move..... I am a ***** competent tanker and I use the Gunnlogi and I can confidently say they are NOT invincible if you use teamwork! For fucks sake, use your head when engaging! I have a whole squad who can spot for me as well, and I still get caught occasionally. If not caught, suppressed all to hell. What you want is a return to tanks being *** easy to kill by just about anything. Well, return our *** rail range and I'll chill in the back when you break the Gunnlogi like you guys broke the *** Madrugar with your infantry bitching. Dude you need to get YOUR head around this. Vesta I'm pretty sure tanks. I drive tanks. I switched from the Madrugar to the Gunnlogi when I couldn't delude myself any further that the Shield HAV was statistically better in every sense than its armour counter part and that while using it could essentially be invincible. Yes I am a tanker and I am saying that I almost have to try to up to have AV destroy me while I use a Gunnlogi...... oddly for me I do better Anti Infantry in a Sica for some reason but that's besides the point. For what the Gunnlogi is, that being a standard or T1 tank hull, it is too cheap and too effective to justify the level of power it puts me on, especially in that it naturally has, with the current AV of Dust, great natural resistances and additional 15% more effecient resistances than its armour counter part allowing it to have the following. -Superior eHP values -165 regen sec after a manable 3-4 second cool down without the requirements of a module. -40% hardeners which are currently the cause of the superior eHP values -Better fitting stats -Better mobility attributes Putting all of these things together has yielded a tank that is understandably rather over powered. Buff up the Madrugar, more PG, CPU, and that should do fine. Used to use Maddy for busting shields but with the removal of slots, CPU and the like, much harder to fit. Do you mean all you do is chill in redline? I mean, I could do that too if I wanted to be invincible. I've got a solid Gunnlogi, but if I roam, I can die.** Makes me think you just chill near the back. This makes me think that you just suck. I have absolutely no SP into vehicles at all, and I can easily survive an entire match in a Sica while roaming around. Only once 2-3 AVers ambush me does my tank get destroyed. I don't die, because I just pop out with a MLT HMG fit and kill them all. Vehicles are OP. Home at Last <3
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2905	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:14:00 - [126] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Gabriel Ceja wrote: I'm not sure about when the new tanks come out but with the status quo AV is in a pretty good spot the problem is not the AV because you never hear about a armor tank, DS, or ADS that they couldn't kill because it ate their swarms. The problem according to most threads like this is the shield tanks that can just stand there and take the beating but even the tanks itself is not to blame it is the ability to stack shield hardeners. When shield hardeners are stacked swarms can no longer do enough damage to stop the shield regen from kicking in so if anything the best thing to do is not allow hardeners to be stacked, even if it does lower the already scarce fitting options, because it's not only a problem for AV but it also poses a problem to armor tank users. The stacking of hardeners is also an imbalance among tanks because if you think swarms look bad hitting a harden stacked shield tank you should see how pitiful the large blaster turret is against a tank like that. Actually you can still stack hardeners on an ADS and on the... Saga II LAV I think? so that swarms cannot do enough damage to stop shield regen, effectively making the vehicle invincible while the hardeners are up (and before anyone starts the TRY THIS TRY THAT bullshit I was using a minmando with proto swarms and max dmg modding). But right now the biggest issue with vehicle balance is #1 railgun turret performance vs. dropships and #2 gunnlogi just needs to get nerfed somehow to bring it in line with the madruger. Or, you know, armor can be buffed so it can actually have a chance against shield. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2905	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:15:00 - [127] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: I recommend you guys pick up either solid AV-fits to swap into, pick up a skilled rail tanker, or prepare jihad jeeps to take out a high-experience tanker. We are not Warpoint Pinatas and continuous nerfing won't make you any better. I run into groups of AV all the time. The difference between them getting me and me getting them or getting out of there is skill, coordination. Watch my routes, mix up your AV, and don't be sad if you don't get me. I won't be sad if you do catch and kill my tank. I'll "GG". Your narrative of continuous nerfs is completely demolished by the simple reality that the Gunnlogi right now is basically invincible if its piloted by someone who isnt a complete moron. How do you explain how effective the gunnlogi is while still pretending tanks have been nerfed into the ground? Intelligence is OP. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:18:00 - [128] - Quote I don't ***** suck. Been playing since Open Beta. All I do is vehicles. I live em. I breath em. I know the ins-and-outs. I roam in either single hardener v. infantry, or double hardener v. tanks. With extenders or damage mods as appropriate. They are NOT invincible and if you are running a militia tank, you are . You haven't been tanking long enough to know what AV does and what the appropriate reaction is. Calling me an idiot? No, just calling out **-ass infantry who come to the forums because they want ALL tanks to be easy to kill.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17133	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:19:00 - [129] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: True Adamance wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Swarm Launchers do NOT need a buff. I repeat, they are fine as they are. Work as a TEAM. You should NOT be able to easily lone wolf a tank. I need teamwork to survive, and AV should have the same weight on their shoulders. However that doesn't change as Vesta said that a Gunnlogi and a mild case of competency makes you effectually invincible on the field unless the JLAV'c come rolling in. That's not right. Hell I never felt like more of a scrub than when I picked up the Shield HAV...... made everything so easy and boring. Also one of your previous statements has me concerned when you talk about Railguns and skill...... you fire a round every 1.8 seconds and have very fair turret tracking values and stability. To put it into perspective you should try getting used to tanks that fire every 10.4 seconds and can't accurately be fired while on the move..... I am a ***** competent tanker and I use the Gunnlogi and I can confidently say they are NOT invincible if you use teamwork! For fucks sake, use your head when engaging! I have a whole squad who can spot for me as well, and I still get caught occasionally. If not caught, suppressed all to hell. What you want is a return to tanks being *** easy to kill by just about anything. Well, return our *** rail range and I'll chill in the back when you break the Gunnlogi like you guys broke the *** Madrugar with your infantry bitching. Dude you need to get YOUR head around this. Vesta I'm pretty sure tanks. I drive tanks. I switched from the Madrugar to the Gunnlogi when I couldn't delude myself any further that the Shield HAV was statistically better in every sense than its armour counter part and that while using it could essentially be invincible. Yes I am a tanker and I am saying that I almost have to try to ** up to have AV destroy me while I use a Gunnlogi...... oddly for me I do better Anti Infantry in a Sica for some reason but that's besides the point. For what the Gunnlogi is, that being a standard or T1 tank hull, it is too cheap and too effective to justify the level of power it puts me on, especially in that it naturally has, with the current AV of Dust, great natural resistances and additional 15% more effecient resistances than its armour counter part allowing it to have the following. -Superior eHP values -165 regen sec after a manable 3-4 second cool down without the requirements of a module. -40% hardeners which are currently the cause of the superior eHP values -Better fitting stats -Better mobility attributes Putting all of these things together has yielded a tank that is understandably rather over powered. Buff up the Madrugar, more PG, CPU, and that should do fine. Used to use Maddy for busting shields but with the removal of slots, CPU and the like, much harder to fit. Do you mean all you do is chill in redline? I mean, I could do that too if I wanted to be invincible. I've got a solid Gunnlogi, but if I roam, I can die. Makes me think you just chill near the back. That depends. I'm more than willing to use the redline to access a specific area of the map from which to fire or to move down a different avenue that isn't being occupied. However that's besides the point... using a shield tank makes a significant difference to survivability and grants an absurd durability for a 200,000 or less ISK hull.... Gunnlogi cost what now? 95,000 ISK. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 379	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:20:00 - [130] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. 1 player = 1 player A single AVer should be able to stand toe to toe with any single vehicle. Stop with all this "teamwork for thee, but not for me" bullshit. Accept that 1 player should be able to kill you without too much trouble, because that's just how good FPSs work. I mean, I could spell it out for you, but its easier to move mountains than it is to convince someone with conversation.

Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 379	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:21:00 - [131] - Quote Full advance fit, you are looking at 350,000. Proto'd out to the hilt, 600,000.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2980	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:21:00 - [132] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. If you ask me, I think you're going about it all wrong. AV should be concerned with point defense and area denial, not necessarily killing vehicles all the time. Good positioning needs to be sought as well, you can't expect to just run up to an HAV and kill it every time solo. AV needs to distract vehicles from their other targets, either by forcing them to engage AVers or to flee, but I still hold that a single AVer should not necessarily kill a vehicle every time except when in very good position or having set a good trap, etc. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 379	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:23:00 - [133] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. If you ask me, I think you're going about it all wrong. AV should be concerned with point defense and area denial, not necessarily killing vehicles all the time. Good positioning needs to be sought as well, you can't expect to just run up to an HAV and kill it every time solo. AV needs to distract vehicles from their other targets, either by forcing them to engage AVers or to flee, but I still hold that a single AVer should not necessarily kill a vehicle every time except when in very good position or having set a good trap, etc. This guy gets it! This is what AV does currently rather well. Get some AV on the field and suddenly that tank has to be extremely cautious before engaging certain points. I have to be the same way when flying or driving the LAV.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2170	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:28:00 - [134] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: I think a great deal of swarm problems could be solved if they were simply required to sustain a lock and damage was buffed appropriately. Death to fire and forget. Even more damage? Jesus Christ, why is the only solution to buff AV? You saw 'increased damage' and didn't bother to look for any context beyond that did you? You just went for a straight kneejerk reaction of 'this means its a buff!!!!!' Instead of considering that by being forced to maintain lock swarms wouldn't be fire & forget things that always hit. I'm just sitting down after a blood donation, skimming the thread, I'll try to gather my thoughts for a big perspective on av balance type post soon. Main points: -high differences between std & pro -one av ineffectual, multiple av terrifyingly lethal -'waves of opportunity' incentivizes flight over fight -high cost of vehicles makes them unsustainable if so much as a single loss is occurred (which is why people want to not die) Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:29:00 - [135] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. 1 player = 1 player A single AVer should be able to stand toe to toe with any single vehicle. Stop with all this "teamwork for thee, but not for me" bullshit. Accept that 1 player should be able to kill you without too much trouble, because that's just how good FPSs work. You're not in a mech with double small turrets. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 62	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:34:00 - [136] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I think this is by far the best thing we have ever heard. The head of development on our game is tired of hearing the sausage is tasty by a few loud people and is walking into line to try one like everyone else. Yes, AV against shields is weak currently. Sorry vehicle guys, it happens. My militia sica pushes around 2 proto swarmers and yes, I am a jerk by jumping out in my heavy and feeding them some hmg. I think the coolest thing I saw in your post is that you understand AV grenades are not worth it unless you are standing next to a supply depot. They need work - plain and simple. My last observation for everyone who is complaining he is doing it wrong: Think about this, he is a noobish player running proto AV against non-proto vehicles and losing. He probably is going to tune out all the talk of AV being OP going forward. Ratiti - +1 those vehicles weren't in a PC, it is worse there with people bringing their best. If you don't have a vehicle you will lose to a vehicle heavy team outright. I liked the post from the tanker about REs, that is so true. Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:36:00 - [137] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I think this is by far the best thing we have ever heard. The head of development on our game is tired of hearing the sausage is tasty by a few loud people and is walking into line to try one like everyone else. Yes, AV against shields is weak currently. Sorry vehicle guys, it happens. My militia sica pushes around 2 proto swarmers and yes, I am a jerk by jumping out in my heavy and feeding them some hmg. I think the coolest thing I saw in your post is that you understand AV grenades are not worth it unless you are standing next to a supply depot. They need work - plain and simple. My last observation for everyone who is complaining he is doing it wrong: Think about this, he is a noobish player running proto AV against non-proto vehicles and losing. He probably is going to tune out all the talk of AV being OP going forward. Ratiti - +1 those vehicles weren't in a PC, it is worse there with people bringing their best. If you don't have a vehicle you will lose to a vehicle heavy team outright. I liked the post from the tanker about REs, that is so true. Lonewolfing an Experienced Tanker shouldn't be an easy option. You'll outright push tanks to the hills if you kneecap their survivability.
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:37:00 - [138] - Quote USE FLUXES. Hit me with a flux grenade when I have no hardener and you effectively nuke 1/3rd of my shields on my heavy extender build, or more than 1/2 on double hardener without hardener, effectively forcing me to evacuate the area. AV nades aren't as useful because Madrugars, which those work mostly against, have been broken and serious tankers don't use them as often anymore.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17134	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:43:00 - [139] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. 1 player = 1 player A single AVer should be able to stand toe to toe with any single vehicle. Stop with all this "teamwork for thee, but not for me" bullshit. Accept that 1 player should be able to kill you without too much trouble, because that's just how good FPSs work. Not really mate. I agree that tanks shouldn't be so tough to kill you don't even bother, but I'm against them being weak and not having proper weapons systems. However you know as well as I do that there will always be those people who dime the system. Not illegitimately by because they can use their tools to become worth more than the 1 = 1 paradigm. Regardless of what is done tankers will find ways to burns the maps and teams to the ground because that's what they do. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 387	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:48:00 - [140] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. 1 player = 1 player A single AVer should be able to stand toe to toe with any single vehicle. Stop with all this "teamwork for thee, but not for me" bullshit. Accept that 1 player should be able to kill you without too much trouble, because that's just how good FPSs work. Not really mate. I agree that tanks shouldn't be so tough to kill you don't even bother, but I'm against them being weak and not having proper weapons systems. However you know as well as I do that there will always be those people who dime the system. Not illegitimately by because they can use their tools to become worth more than the 1 = 1 paradigm. Regardless of what is done tankers will find ways to burns the maps and teams to the ground because that's what they do. Suppression. If you field AV, good tanks will begin to evacuate that area. Use cover. Don't charge a tank out in the open and expect to live. Use teamwork. Good tankers have a squad communicating with him. Do the same. If I am being AV'd, I have little time for much more than withdrawing to engage at another level. As for your militia tank, who was on the other side? Disorganized AV isn't good at killing much of anything, but run against an organized squad and you'll change that tune.

Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 388	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:50:00 - [141] - Quote Also, lets remove proto-suits in the game that are incredibly tough to 1v1 in basic or militia suits. 1 = 1 right? Even for Infantry.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7149	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:54:00 - [142] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Also, lets remove proto-suits in the game that are incredibly tough to 1v1 in basic or militia suits. 1 = 1 right? Even for Infantry. I find it hilarious that you think there's a tank nerf in the offing AV
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 388	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:55:00 - [143] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Also, lets remove proto-suits in the game that are incredibly tough to 1v1 in basic or militia suits. 1 = 1 right? Even for Infantry. I find it hilarious that you think there's a tank nerf in the offing Tank nerfs are always preceding by Infantry who know not the role bitching on the forums about it.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 842	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:58:00 - [144] - Quote Here is the whole balance in a nutshell. 1 tank vs Infantry = Tank wins 1 Infantry AV vs 1 tank = tank advantage 2 Infantry AV vs 1 Tank, = AV advantage 1 Tank + 1 infantry vs 2 AV = Infantry advantage, Tank and AV disadvantage. 1 Tank + 1 infantry AV vs 1 tank = Tank and AV advantage 2 Tank VS 2 AV = whoever gets first kill has advatange. 1 infantry vs 1 AV = infantry advantage. 1 infantry AV vs ADS = AV advantage 1 infantry vs 1 ADS= ADS wins 2 infantry AV vs 1 or more ADS= Infantry AV wins Most of threads are about people gettin the short end of the stick in each situation. Think outside the box. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 295	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:59:00 - [145] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: [ Still too OP for Spker they need to be nerfed meow, how do you expect balanced game if tanks are being pelted by cotton balls and causing them to drive off backwards in a straight line.... up a hill.... with 1200 shields.... and 4000 armor Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. oh i know hun i was just being sarcastic the last part is actually what happened when i came across spker and i was using a dual swarm minmando Sir Dukey- If one person is smart he should be able to keep vehicle at bay but not destroy it unless its a stupid driver
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 388	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:02:00 - [146] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: [ Still too OP for Spker they need to be nerfed meow, how do you expect balanced game if tanks are being pelted by cotton balls and causing them to drive off backwards in a straight line.... up a hill.... with 1200 shields.... and 4000 armor Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. oh i know hun i was just being sarcastic the last part is actually what happened when i came across spker and i was using a dual swarm minmando I've seen those. Can tell by how hard they hit lol.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17135	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:04:00 - [147] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Here is the whole balance in a nutshell. 1 tank vs Infantry = Tank wins 1 Infantry AV vs 1 tank = tank advantage 2 Infantry AV vs 1 Tank, = AV advantage 1 Tank + 1 infantry vs 2 AV = Infantry advantage, Tank and AV disadvantage. 1 Tank + 1 infantry AV vs 1 tank = Tank and AV advantage 2 Tank VS 2 AV = whoever gets first kill has advatange. 1 infantry vs 1 AV = infantry advantage. 1 infantry AV vs ADS = AV advantage 1 infantry vs 1 ADS= ADS wins 2 infantry AV vs 1 or more ADS= Infantry AV wins Most of threads are about people gettin the short end of the stick in each situation. Think outside the box. I dunno about you and I won't argue it. But I've noted that once AV vs Tank engagement gets into the 2v2's and more AV gains a distict advantage even against multiple tanks especially if they're smart about it and basically operate on a "Alpha Strike" principle. The most impressive AV I ever saw was 4 AVers (1 Forger 3x Swarms) vs 4 tanks (3 Shield and 1 Armour) they basically used the forger to Mark the targeted HAV and alpha'd it off field with missiles. Was honestly beautiful and with the space of 30 seconds 3 tanks were on fire and I couldn't more from behind a crate....... "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7150	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:06:00 - [148] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Also, lets remove proto-suits in the game that are incredibly tough to 1v1 in basic or militia suits. 1 = 1 right? Even for Infantry. I find it hilarious that you think there's a tank nerf in the offing Tank nerfs are always preceding by Infantry who know not the role bitching on the forums about it. the same could be said about vehicle drivers vs. AV AV
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17135	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:07:00 - [149] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Also, lets remove proto-suits in the game that are incredibly tough to 1v1 in basic or militia suits. 1 = 1 right? Even for Infantry. I find it hilarious that you think there's a tank nerf in the offing Tank nerfs are always preceding by Infantry who know not the role bitching on the forums about it. the same could be said about vehicle drivers vs. AV "Could be"? You mean "Is always" "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7156	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:21:00 - [150] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Also, lets remove proto-suits in the game that are incredibly tough to 1v1 in basic or militia suits. 1 = 1 right? Even for Infantry. I find it hilarious that you think there's a tank nerf in the offing Tank nerfs are always preceding by Infantry who know not the role bitching on the forums about it. the same could be said about vehicle drivers vs. AV "Could be"? You mean "Is always" honestly it's pointless. Spkr4thedead is pissed off that he basically ignored by treating everyone in the HAV feedback thread like trash. This is more of the same, only he's bringing his other buddy from back in the day who also liked to say get gud scrub when the HAVs were averaging between 20 and 50 KD in beta. AV

Pocket Rocket Girl Psygod9 295	Posted - 2015.02.12 21:32:00 - [151] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: [ Still too OP for Spker they need to be nerfed meow, how do you expect balanced game if tanks are being pelted by cotton balls and causing them to drive off backwards in a straight line.... up a hill.... with 1200 shields.... and 4000 armor Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. oh i know hun i was just being sarcastic the last part is actually what happened when i came across spker and i was using a dual swarm minmando I've seen those. Can tell by how hard they hit lol. I can say even when i have squad mate i never go in with the expectation of destroying a vehicle. i do ADS, DS and at times use a tank but rarely ( not really a good driving them) but when i do i have no problem with AV from my experience rail tanks are another story though. When i do get shot down its because of AV using team work, im not paying attention to whats around me and hitting a building, or being too cocky or a combo of the 3 other than that i have no problem out flying swarms dodging forge rounds and when i do get hit by the plazma cannon its a female dog to recover from the kockback but other than that i think AV is fine and so are vehicles Sir Dukey- If one person is smart he should be able to keep vehicle at bay but not destroy it unless its a stupid driver
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1755	Posted - 2015.02.12 22:02:00 - [152] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. You are probably a bad player because there is no one HAV that can be effective when I am around. I may not kill him but hey, i'm happy with getting +75 +75 +75. Not to mention, that when I am around in my ADV minmando swarm fit, most tanks and especially ADS stay away. Now, had there been 2 Minmandos, those tanks and ADS's would literally have certain death. Get gud? Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1755	Posted - 2015.02.12 22:02:00 - [153] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. False, a Gallante Commando with Dual PLC's can bring my unhardened 5300 shields to 1000. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7162	Posted - 2015.02.12 22:40:00 - [154] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. False, a Gallante Commando with Dual PLC's can bring my unhardened 5300 shields to 1000. You're not going to gain much traction complaining that AV bonused for your tank type hits hard when your hardeners are down. And the commando is not the only suit that can employ the PLC effectively. AV

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17259	Posted - 2015.02.12 23:10:00 - [155] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Are you experimenting with HAV's on an Alt as well? I know, as you have pointed out before, you don't have to have personal experience with something to develop it, however, it does certainly help. And since the vehicle balance is a fairly in-depth and long term project, it would be worth trying to get a bit of a feel for the vehicle experience. I spent a month focused exclusively on piloting HAV's a while back so that I would have a more informed opinion when it came to AV balance discussions. (I wrote a guide after the experience.) Anyway, I found it to be a very useful exercise, and I would recommend it to you. Yes I am, but it's really just because I want to be able to deploy a DHAV and take HAVS out, so I can go back to shooting people with rifles "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17143	Posted - 2015.02.12 23:12:00 - [156] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Yes I am, but it's really just because I want to be able to deploy a DHAV and take HAVS out, so I can go back to shooting people with rifles That statement, conjouring imagines of a youthful gleam in the eye and rife with exuberant cheek, is rather disconcerting....... "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 209	Posted - 2015.02.12 23:23:00 - [157] - Quote Slave of MORTE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Try a demolition scout Adv packed av nade swarms re's Nanohive on a armor type scout running 1 kinkat the rest complex reactive with damage mods in highs ...say hello to cqc vehicle devastation .. Run adv packed av nades proto are not worth fitting cost Minmando is mostly for posting For gers in the current meta mostly post however if you really wanna test av effectiveness Fit a assault forge and packed av nades on a sentinel call a lav ..and go jump a tank . https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=http%3a%2f%2fgoo.gl%2fsnCv7c&domain=goo.gl add AV nade bonus to it :p Help me gain the C-II Dropsuit Pilot & Saboteur
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 677	Posted - 2015.02.13 00:01:00 - [158] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. And in contrast I killed multiple vehicles in the last few games I played with an Apex Sentinel. But we did it as a we -- with other AVers in concert. I won't say that vehicles are easy to pop. Any good tanker or DS pilot runs the hell away SUPER fast. So they are super hard to pop. But doable in a good squad. And ONLY in a good squad. Part of that problem is the amount of mobility HAVs have and the lack of durability + afterburner speed DSs have. Maybe ya'll could try moving to the trifecta "got 3 choose 2 model?" You know, if you use a service you can get Cheap, Fast, or Well Done -- choose 2. Vehicles: Offense, Defense, Speed -- choose 2. EDit note: Italics added to separate vehicles by attributes -- not add emphasis.
tritan abbattere DBAG CORE 38	Posted - 2015.02.13 00:01:00 - [159] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. 1 player = 1 player A single AVer should be able to stand toe to toe with any single vehicle. Stop with all this "teamwork for thee, but not for me" bullshit. Accept that 1 player should be able to kill you without too much trouble, because that's just how good FPSs work. Thats how a generic FPS works. This is a FPS based on economics. For this to be fair tanks should be cheaper then even though it will not make sense at all. A basic tank should cost maybe 20K isk. I agree for now as long as this is match making it should be 1 on 1 should be a flip of the coin weighted by skill. If you can not do this the second best thing is keep there current price and make them better in which case new players will just hate the game and vets will counter with tanks and lose isk. One of my friends tried to do a respec only into vehicles and he could not make isk at all. in 1 day of trying to make isk while playing his specialized role of being an ADS he lost 20 million in 1 day. Mary Sedillo wrote: Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. Because there not meant to be lost often yet you do causes a lot of friction between vehicle pilots and people that spec in AV. And what is said about tanks about working as a team to prevent a loss of a tank is true for drop suits just as well. A full squad that has a few needles and a logi working together will survive and make profit on the battlefield. This includes Proto gear. Right now vehicles are the least looked at thing for balance in terms of profitability. Now if I'm missing something or a mechanic that is placing this in the wrong please point it out. I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 677	Posted - 2015.02.13 00:07:00 - [160] - Quote tritan abbattere wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Mary Sedillo wrote: Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. 1 player = 1 player A single AVer should be able to stand toe to toe with any single vehicle. Stop with all this "teamwork for thee, but not for me" bullshit. Accept that 1 player should be able to kill you without too much trouble, because that's just how good FPSs work. Thats how a generic FPS works. This is a FPS based on economics. For this to be fair tanks should be cheaper then even though it will not make sense at all. A basic tank should cost maybe 20K isk. I agree for now as long as this is match making it should be 1 on 1 should be a flip of the coin weighted by skill. If you can not do this the second best thing is keep there current price and make them better in which case new players will just hate the game and vets will counter with tanks and lose isk. One of my friends tried to do a respec only into vehicles and he could not make isk at all. in 1 day of trying to make isk while playing his specialized role of being an ADS he lost 20 million in 1 day. Mary Sedillo wrote: Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. Because there not meant to be lost often yet you do causes a lot of friction between vehicle pilots and people that spec in AV. And what is said about tanks about working as a team to prevent a loss of a tank is true for drop suits just as well. A full squad that has a few needles and a logi working together will survive and make profit on the battlefield. This includes Proto gear. Right now vehicles are the least looked at thing for balance in terms of profitability. Now if I'm missing something or a mechanic that is placing this in the wrong please point it out. o.O so much reasonableness!!!

manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 364	Posted - 2015.02.13 00:07:00 - [161] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. You're doing it wrong. With a forge or minmando I can take out both infantry and vehicles extremely well. I guess it's just experience. It only takes 2 forge shots if you hit the sweetspot, which you should aim for every time, it's pretty big. You can one shot infantry which is pretty easy if you can aim, and that op dmg bonus on combat rifles and swarms firing a clip in less than 5 seconds makes it pretty easy to kill vehicles really. Sorry, but it's true. "If there is a strafe nerf in this game, remove hit detection"- manboar 2014
killian178 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 121	Posted - 2015.02.13 00:07:00 - [162] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: By any chance Rattati were you facing Shield Gunlogis? Because Shield Gunlogis are a pain by itself but then you have the dual tanked issue which makes it even worse Rattati. I run Plasma Cannon as my only AV and you are correct, it is painfully UP even against shields when compared to swarms which it's supposed to be good at but even then Swarms outperform PLCs against a defense they are supposed to be weak against. Madrugars on the other hand are pretty easy for me to take out compared to Gunlogis and even Sicas that are properly fitted. But that's more of an issue of the Gallente HAVs being terrible. I digress and have no clue what I'm rambling on about but what I'm trying to say is that Dual Tanked Gunlogis are the main issue with HAVs right now. The ease of dual tanking is way too easy and way too effective and coupled with the fact that all AV save for one is weak against shields you're always going to have a terrible time taking out HAVs in this game as long as this meta is around. In order to dual tank a gunlogi, you need armor and shield optimizations to lvl 3-5, soooo, you kinda pay for that tiny, tiny, tiny advantage, with like 4 mil sp, just in those specializations.......... Just sayin Every commando k.o, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17147	Posted - 2015.02.13 00:23:00 - [163] - Quote killian178 wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: By any chance Rattati were you facing Shield Gunlogis? Because Shield Gunlogis are a pain by itself but then you have the dual tanked issue which makes it even worse Rattati. I run Plasma Cannon as my only AV and you are correct, it is painfully UP even against shields when compared to swarms which it's supposed to be good at but even then Swarms outperform PLCs against a defense they are supposed to be weak against. Madrugars on the other hand are pretty easy for me to take out compared to Gunlogis and even Sicas that are properly fitted. But that's more of an issue of the Gallente HAVs being terrible. I digress and have no clue what I'm rambling on about but what I'm trying to say is that Dual Tanked Gunlogis are the main issue with HAVs right now. The ease of dual tanking is way too easy and way too effective and coupled with the fact that all AV save for one is weak against shields you're always going to have a terrible time taking out HAVs in this game as long as this meta is around. In order to dual tank a gunlogi, you need armor and shield optimizations to lvl 3-5, soooo, you kinda pay for that tiny, tiny, tiny advantage, with like 4 mil sp, just in those specializations.......... Just sayin Sure but in all honestly Dual Tanking, and especially on Caldari content, should not be viable or encouraged. Especially not on a Standard Hull. 10,000 eHP is just too much. Gimme some time because I don't think you need that much SP to build 10k eHP tank..... off the top of my head I think I could do it for less than 10 Million SP (Imma take that bet against myself) "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6647	Posted - 2015.02.13 00:23:00 - [164] - Quote Uprising 1.7 Pilots wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. You're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 419	Posted - 2015.02.13 00:48:00 - [165] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. False, a Gallante Commando with Dual PLC's can bring my unhardened 5300 shields to 1000. Oh man, how convincing! Quick everyone lets balance AV around rediculous AV fits that dont work and tankers who dont react to damage!
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 389	Posted - 2015.02.13 00:58:00 - [166] - Quote I don't think they need to nerf AV. I just think they need to buff the Gallente Tanks a bit so the explosive-heavy AV'rs can have something to shoot at again! :)
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1736	Posted - 2015.02.13 01:16:00 - [167] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. Be careful with what you do to the PLC. There are many people (myself included) who would be very upset if the PLC's anti infantry capabilities were changed. It's one of those weapons that doesn't necessarily have to be "balanced" to be fun. If it was going to get buffed though, I would imagine that increasing the direct damage a bit would be the way to go. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17150	Posted - 2015.02.13 01:24:00 - [168] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Oh man, how convincing! Quick everyone lets balance AV around ridiculous AV fits that don't work and tankers who don't react to damage! You are now my favourite. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.13 02:37:00 - [169] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: honestly it's pointless. Spkr4thedead is pissed off that he basically ignored by treating everyone in the HAV feedback thread like trash. This is more of the same, only he's bringing his other buddy from back in the day who also liked to say get gud scrub when the HAVs were averaging between 20 and 50 KD in beta. I treat people like trash by pointing out where they're wrong, as well as pointing out bad ideas? You make it sound like I'm saying bad things about their families. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
tritan abbattere DBAG CORE 38	Posted - 2015.02.13 02:43:00 - [170] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: honestly it's pointless. Spkr4thedead is pissed off that he basically ignored by treating everyone in the HAV feedback thread like trash. This is more of the same, only he's bringing his other buddy from back in the day who also liked to say get gud scrub when the HAVs were averaging between 20 and 50 KD in beta. I treat people like trash by pointing out where they're wrong, as well as pointing out bad ideas? You make it sound like I'm saying bad things about their families. from the few replies i have read from you you seem to jump to conclusions with out thinking much. Harpyja wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Would it be possible to set swarms faster but with a maximum turn rate of 30 degrees per second? Is it also possible to make them update their trajectory relative to target location more often? I of course have no nefarious intentions regarding these things at all. Honest. You want them even faster? 60m/s isn't enough for you, now you want them even faster? Why? Escape velocity to hit the warbarge? And even smarter? Going around 3 corners? Can't we pilots have anything nice? You're not getting it. Even at 60m/s, a 30 degree / second turn speed equates to a turning radius of 115 meters. Simply doing a 180 results in a usage of almost its max 400 meters. All you have to do is get your transversal velocity high enough and you're almost guaranteed that they'll never hit you once they miss you the first time around. Here this is a rebalanced if not a buff to drop ships if your skilled enough to figure out how to get your transverse high at the last second and you responded as if its a Complete buff to AV. I think its a neat post to look at and should be considered by talking about it in a creative and helpful way. Link to post I quoted I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole

Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 319	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:27:00 - [171] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I don't see how you arent popping tanks in a scout if you are sneaking up to them unhardened and: 1- Plc blast to rear 2- Packed Lai dai X 2 3- Aim Plc and blast or sneak up and 1-Swarm to rear 2-Packed Lai dai X 2 3- Swarm and Swarm again or 1-Enter any building 2-Get as high as possible 3-Rain swarms at tank until dead or 1-Find tiny hill 2-Stand on opposite side of hill as tank 3-Rain swarms on tank while dancing around hill for cover or 1-take dropship to any highpoint on map 2-Rain AV on all tanks all match or 1-drop nanohive behind tank 2-Packed Lai dai, Packed Lai dai, Packed Lai dai, Packed Lai dai If you are saying you hit a tank once and he turns around and shoots you in his tank then I don't think you have this whole infantry AV thing figured out yet, your goal should be to have him jump out of his tank to try and kill you right before his tank pops. That is if he doesn't run away. Is it that you think by merely getting behind a tank with a scout that the tank should have a 90% chance of popping if the players are of equal skill? Because that makes running tanks pointless. If I run an AV fit as a pilot, does that mean in any tank engagement my opponents tank will always pop because even if he beats me fairly I can jump out and claim his wounded tank as a trophy? Because it's getting to the point that Missile tanks are emptying their clips into me then jumping out with AV while reloading only to jump back to empty 12 more Missiles at me. Ratatti, spawn as your minmando, shoot one volley at a gunlogi, lock on again, watch him activate hardeners, release swarms, count his shield loss, then watch where he goes... reload your swarms and watch out for infantry, now take 20 seconds to relocate closer to his redline, his hardeners will wear off and you can fire 3 volleys into a paper thin tank. If you notice he only has one hardener then empty a couple clips into him and he will pop. HARDENERS ARE THE ONLY THING KEEPING TANKS FROM INSTANTLY POPPING. Of course you could always do what everyone else is doing and just get on top of any structure and bunnyhop around with the av of your choice getting +75 every couple seconds.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.13 05:30:00 - [172] - Quote tritan abbattere wrote: from the few replies i have read from you you seem to jump to conclusions with out thinking much. I usually don't need to spend time thinking of a reply, or spending 3 seconds to read and absorb every single word. I can fire out responses quickly because I know what does and what does not work. I can point out when people lie as well, like someone saying a Soma can tank 7000 damage launched in a few seconds. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7168	Posted - 2015.02.13 08:38:00 - [173] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: tritan abbattere wrote: from the few replies i have read from you you seem to jump to conclusions with out thinking much. I usually don't need to spend time thinking of a reply, or spending 3 seconds to read and absorb every single word. I can fire out responses quickly because I know what does and what does not work. I can point out when people lie as well, like someone saying a Soma can tank 7000 damage launched in a few seconds. In short, he knows everything and anyobe who disagrees with him even slightly is wrong and trying to ruin the game. AV
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2174	Posted - 2015.02.13 09:10:00 - [174] - Quote I'm just going to do some stream of consciousness style posting here. Disclaimer: Not all points will be well argued or supported, but I feel that they have some merit to them, most of this is opinion but I'll try to ground with some supported reasoning. This post may have some terrible formatting in places, I hope it doesn't get to be too wall-of-texty. To start with, I feel like 'waves of opportunity' is a failed design premise, the way it has ended up panning out is that vehicles are either alive and nigh-invincible (we'll get to the madrugar being underpowered in a bit) or they're about to be really ing dead. In the case of smart vehicle users any situation where they would be about to be dead, they instead opt to leave the battlefield and wait for modules to cool down. When all of this is paired with the high rep values currently in game it's akin to always having to fight a lightning fast sentinel suit that has full hp if it gets out of your sight for 15 seconds. In short it's impossible to grind down a vehicle due to speed & rep values. Vehicle hp is either full & modules are up (they're invincible), or their hp is full & modules are down (they're going to flee) or their hp isn't full and their modules are down (they're about to die). When experiencing this as an av player, you always feel like you're fighting a vehicle when it's 'invincible' and you cant do anything to them. When playing like this as a vehicle user you feel horrifically weak and underpowered unless your cooldowns are all up - your best option is to flee because you feel underpowered instead of reasonably durable. On both sides of the equation, there's horrific differences between standard weapons/modules and prototype weapons/modules. Proto swarms are 20% better than basic before proficiency, the commando bonus that minmatar (should not) have then you toss complex damage mods on that and you can have a massive damage gap. In essence higher levels of sp/isk investment (in any role) is similar to choosing to play with an advantageous 'handicap' in dust... a handicap that can amount to >30% damage and +100-200% hp on top of having more experience actually playing that role. With all this variance it's hard to achieve any points of balance. On vehicles you want to fit multiple of the 'best' module so you're never weak / always playing with advantageous handicap. PLC and Forge operation should be changed to reload speed (3% per level) and with all AV weapons damage should be standardized a bit more (buff weaker weapons, nerf overperformers), Minmando needs to lose swarm 'bonus' (seriously, it is the FOTM AV fit), Proficiency on AV weapons should go towards fitting cost reduction or something. On vehicle side I'm not certain how to correct, I'd probably favor a return to 1.6 style things of better modules being easier to fit, and vehicles more oriented towards passive resistances and slightly slower speeds, less incentive to flee the battlefield after killing your one installation / vehicle etc. This ties in with both of my previous walls of text. One source of anti-vehicle or anti-infantry (infantry or vehicle) is often ineffectual against a target... it may be a 'threat' but vehicles/infantry can avoid it but multiple sources of av/ai utterly smash the crap out of things. I'll admit that this is more oriented as an av rant, but I feel that there's a bit too much disparity between how good one av/ai is and how good multiples are. Nyain-San / DunaCorp tankbush was real and couldn't be stopped because there were too many targets and there's also a flipped situation where one av is 'whatever' but two avers can instakill things (2x wiyrkomi breach forge, or 2x wiyrkomi swarm vs armor tank). I had a bullet point here that I want to re-iterate: "waves of opportunity" design incentivizes flight over fight, massively. Vehicles feel incredibly weak with modules down or like unstoppable gods with modules up. If we moved back to a system like 1.6 (with not-terrible shield recharge. Seriously 5 ***ing minutes to get shields back on a gunnlogi? I'm okay with a minute or so) vehicles would feel like they could stay on the field with their passive modules and wait it out for their repairers / boosters / recharge, this would probably be much less frustrating for infantry and vehicles alike, it would also allow vehicles to be flanked / overwhelmed. Finally getting to my bullet point that certain hulls / vehicles perform MUCH better or MUCH worse than intended because there's a lack of weapon parity and the 'good' weapons are too powerful at certain things. Madrugars don't exist on the battlefield currently because swarms / missile tanks instantly kill them... whereas the 'good' av weapons aren't as good vs shields, and the weapons that are* good against shields are either underpowered or can be mitigated to the point of being ineffectual. More types of AV means more variables, this could be very good. Final bullet point: Vehicle users hate dying simply because it means that we go deep in the red if so much as a single loss is incurred... due to the isk costs associated with vehicles it feels like we shouldn't be losing them, if vehicles cost less in terms of isk, people would be much more okay with losing them. Edit: Forgot my random bit of hatespeech about the swarm launcher being disproportionately easier to use than other av because of its 'fire and forget' and 'cant miss' (yes you can lose missiles to terrain) nature. There's been many suggestions on this - I wouldn't mind seeing it have to maintain target lock to hit and getting a proportional damage buff because of it. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7168	Posted - 2015.02.13 10:52:00 - [175] - Quote Sorry mina, thoroughly disagree with you on the skill changes. Minnatar explosive bonus is a borderline nonfactor, and even at advanced the primary benefit comes from the reload bonus which sharply increases the long term DPS. At no point does the math bear up to the claim that the minmando is notably superior. Perception can lie. Removing the charge bonus from forges will neuter the entire weapon line and make it impossible to do enough damage fast enough to kill a vehicle. The reload benefit is of marginal utility, not even failing to mitigate the loss of sustained DPS which is already sub-400. what seems at first to be a reasonable change rapidly becomes a critical issue (we will cite charge times and madrugar fitting), or covers up the actual problem (minmatar commando explosive bonus). There are actual problems but you're missing the mark on wgwhat they are. AV
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2176	Posted - 2015.02.13 11:02:00 - [176] - Quote ^Breakin, I didn't mean to imply that forge guns should be left at current (pre operation) charge values. Much like the plasma cannon I'd like to see them standardized at their current (max operation) charge values. Forge guns do need some improving (notably on the standard / breach variants). And if minmatar explosive bonus is a non-factor why is EVERYONE running that suit? EVERYONE. I can see it several times a match and a lot of the time it's from PC corps. All adv/proto minmando with 2x damage mods and wiyrkomi swarms. It may not have an 'effect' on dropship TTK, but something seems out of line with it being so omnipresent. In short I want to see some of the gap closed between basic and proto on both sides and I want vehicle players to stay on the field where they can be worn down instead of running away to the red line the moment they don't have modules up. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y General Tso's Alliance 516	Posted - 2015.02.13 11:18:00 - [177] - Quote Personally I feel rail tanks need something done with them, as they re perfect for both infantry and anti-tanking. It doesn't make sense to really run anything else and that's why 80% of the tankers use gunlogis with a rail on it. They need to shake violently so they can't kill infantry or something, it's kinda making the blaster obsolete. As a proto forge gun user, I can tell you the problem are with the gunlogis more then the madrugers. Since there are no shield proficient AV weapons in the game, armor tanks are outclassed in both speed and survivability. Not to mention they are hard to fit a missile or rail onto, so your left with the blaster to make the most of it, but again, the rail outclasses it even in killing infantry. I find most people kill me while I'm running, even in a scout suit, and seldom need a second shot with even a militia rail turret. G.L.O.R.Y Soldier, I'm that Amarr heavy you warn your team about <3 -Heavy/Logi/Assault/Scout-
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7171	Posted - 2015.02.13 12:24:00 - [178] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: ^Breakin, I didn't mean to imply that forge guns should be left at current (pre operation) charge values. Much like the plasma cannon I'd like to see them standardized at their current (max operation) charge values. Forge guns do need some improving (notably on the standard / breach variants). And if minmatar explosive bonus is a non-factor why is EVERYONE running that suit? EVERYONE. I can see it several times a match and a lot of the time it's from PC corps. All adv/proto minmando with 2x damage mods and wiyrkomi swarms. It may not have an 'effect' on dropship TTK, but something seems out of line with it being so omnipresent. In short I want to see some of the gap closed between basic and proto on both sides and I want vehicle players to stay on the field where they can be worn down instead of running away to the red line the moment they don't have modules up. Minmatar explosive bonus is a psychological advantage. The core problem with the minmando is not the minmando. The bonus doesn't. Alter the number of shots to kill. If you want to see the culprit click on the link on my sig. Go to the swarm tab Look at the bottom table. Three Damage mods, max skill vs. Shields. The DPS counts have to be scrolled right to locate. If the mando bonus was OP the galsent PLC combo wouldn't still be a joke. WHat the minmando adds to that table of DPS is an approximate 4% boost. The Sustained (with reloads) is further right. The universal 25% commando reload speed affects THAT. But not the raw DPS. AV
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.13 13:17:00 - [179] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: tritan abbattere wrote: from the few replies i have read from you you seem to jump to conclusions with out thinking much. I usually don't need to spend time thinking of a reply, or spending 3 seconds to read and absorb every single word. I can fire out responses quickly because I know what does and what does not work. I can point out when people lie as well, like someone saying a Soma can tank 7000 damage launched in a few seconds. In short, he knows everything and anyobe who disagrees with him even slightly is wrong and trying to ruin the game. I don't try to ruin infantry just because I get out-ranged by a rail rifle, or try to fight a sprint strafing scout. Why are you trying to ruin vehicles simply because you don't use them? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
emm kay Direct Action Resources 257	Posted - 2015.02.13 13:32:00 - [180] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: AV is already exceedingly powerful, they don't need any more damage. wut I routinely slam volleys of swarms into HAV and ADS only to have them harden and blap me, or hard and run to a side of the map that hasn't fitted AV yet to continue the mass murder. you're bad at AV, then :P you don't just fire and forget, ripley. You fire and follow up. There is a reason you never see me in battle. it's because I see you first.

Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2546	Posted - 2015.02.13 13:48:00 - [181] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Here's the thing, the HAV is running away. That should not be the case. HAVs should endure AV, not dodge or avoid it. This is the crux of the issue for me. I want my HAV to be able to sit there and soak up AV damage when my modules are up. When my modules are down, escape should not be a likely scenario. I should either a. have backup to protect me or b. hope my modules are off cooldown. But I should by no means expect my 40 ton tank to be able to jet away nearly at LAV levels of speed. Tanks don't run. They endure, or they die. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
tritan abbattere DBAG CORE 40	Posted - 2015.02.13 14:15:00 - [182] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: I don't try to ruin infantry just because I get out-ranged by a rail rifle, or try to fight a sprint strafing scout. Why are you trying to ruin vehicles simply because you don't use them? Well first off Again i feel your not reading enough of a post and not backing what your saying. Second Don't bash people it is driving me insane. If i disagree with something or someone I give them reasons why. Example: I disagree how your handling in this thread your not quote or stating anything but your opinion. Then after words bashing people. This to me is not something I want to see on the forums I would rather see creative thinking to help make this game better. That is what the forums are here for. People want more AV variants dose not mean they will be anymore powerful. Just specialized towards Shields rather then armor. If they add a Amarr variant of AV they may need to nerf Armor AV so shields have an easier time vrs swarms and the goto anti gunlogi will be the Amarr AV so you no you need to back off asap if you see a giant Pulse Laser. If you know your right please try to prove it with statistics and numbers back up by quotes and references. Other wise everyone is just gonna look at your posts and may agree with you but the majority that dose not will see you as a complete idiot and you will have no chance in changing there minds. TBH i think everyone should do what is stated in this paragraph. Right now I will agree use of vehicles is a hard role because of the extreme pressure on your wallet. As of right now tanks are the leased look at thing in terms AV vrs tankers. Both in isk terms and Play-ability terms. Cost of a basic tank is a Proto(160K+ isk) suit so i can only lose 1 per match if i want to make isk. That is why i don't run vehicles really anymore, Because of the cost. I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 766	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:26:00 - [183] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. No one is going to argue (or at least shouldn't) that the plasma cannon is useless as AV. If you try to change the plasma cannon, everyone who likes running up to infantry and blapping them with it is going to complain. So the best option is a specific AV varient that doesn't have splash, but fires a much faster shot with less of an arc. As for your av grenades being useless, are you throwing them at shields? Because against armour they tend to plow through it. If you're in a proto scout with a cloak, can you try sneaking up behind the tank, throwing a flux grenade or 2 and then laying a shot into it's weakpoint. If it doesn't die within 2 hits, then I'll agree there's something wrong with the tank... Or it's fitted a lot of armour and your shield weapon shouldn't down it that easily... But any other tank will wipe it off the face of the planet. Also shield hardeners have been stupidly over the top for a long time, fit 1 and you have massive survivability, fit 2 and you're immortal until the cd ends, then you're boned. The key being to wait the timer out. Either drop the active time & the cooldown, or drop the amount of damage it's blocking... Or kill off stacking and watch people stack hp mods instead.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 845	Posted - 2015.02.13 21:49:00 - [184] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Here's the thing, the HAV is running away. That should not be the case. HAVs should endure AV, not dodge or avoid it. This is the crux of the issue for me. I want my HAV to be able to sit there and soak up AV damage when my modules are up. When my modules are down, escape should not be a likely scenario. I should either a. have backup to protect me or b. hope my modules are off cooldown. But I should by no means expect my 40 ton tank to be able to jet away nearly at LAV levels of speed. Tanks don't run. They endure, or they die. I'm just throwing these hypotheticasl at you. If you could endure AV from several players, wouldn't you be better off running before your modules reach cooldown anyways? Isnt this what we currently have with armor AV engaging shield tanks? Putting us right back at square one? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7181	Posted - 2015.02.13 23:20:00 - [185] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Here's the thing, the HAV is running away. That should not be the case. HAVs should endure AV, not dodge or avoid it. This is the crux of the issue for me. I want my HAV to be able to sit there and soak up AV damage when my modules are up. When my modules are down, escape should not be a likely scenario. I should either a. have backup to protect me or b. hope my modules are off cooldown. But I should by no means expect my 40 ton tank to be able to jet away nearly at LAV levels of speed. Tanks don't run. They endure, or they die. I'm just throwing these hypotheticasl at you. If you could endure AV from several players, wouldn't you be better off running before your modules reach cooldown anyways? Isnt this what we currently have with armor AV engaging shield tanks? Putting us right back at square one? spkr wants it that way. he has literally said being killed in a tank by infantry is unfair in the past. AV
Feldt-Grace Anaheim Electronics Manufacture Company 75	Posted - 2015.02.14 13:05:00 - [186] - Quote Chuu~ Flux-Swarms~ TRANS-AM! Gundam, DUST and more Gameplays
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.14 13:13:00 - [187] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: spkr wants it that way. he has literally said being killed in a tank by infantry is unfair in the past. All I've said is that I want vehicle SP and ISK to be worth it. Never have I said I want to be invincible. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2908	Posted - 2015.02.14 13:19:00 - [188] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Here's the thing, the HAV is running away. That should not be the case. HAVs should endure AV, not dodge or avoid it. This is the crux of the issue for me. I want my HAV to be able to sit there and soak up AV damage when my modules are up. When my modules are down, escape should not be a likely scenario. I should either a. have backup to protect me or b. hope my modules are off cooldown. But I should by no means expect my 40 ton tank to be able to jet away nearly at LAV levels of speed. Tanks don't run. They endure, or they die. I'm just throwing these hypotheticasl at you. If you could endure AV from several players, wouldn't you be better off running before your modules reach cooldown anyways? Isnt this what we currently have with armor AV engaging shield tanks? Putting us right back at square one? You probably don't know the pounding swarms and forges give to shield tanks. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7184	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:49:00 - [189] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: spkr wants it that way. he has literally said being killed in a tank by infantry is unfair in the past. All I've said is that I want vehicle SP and ISK to be worth it. Never have I said I want to be invincible. The beta forum posts are still available if you would like me to go trawling. Theyre locked too, so you can't edit them to save face. Never say never sparky. AV
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2550	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:54:00 - [190] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Here's the thing, the HAV is running away. That should not be the case. HAVs should endure AV, not dodge or avoid it. This is the crux of the issue for me. I want my HAV to be able to sit there and soak up AV damage when my modules are up. When my modules are down, escape should not be a likely scenario. I should either a. have backup to protect me or b. hope my modules are off cooldown. But I should by no means expect my 40 ton tank to be able to jet away nearly at LAV levels of speed. Tanks don't run. They endure, or they die. I'm just throwing these hypotheticasl at you. If you could endure AV from several players, wouldn't you be better off running before your modules reach cooldown anyways? Isnt this what we currently have with armor AV engaging shield tanks? Putting us right back at square one? But you assume the tank has it's current speed. I want the resistance/hp buffed, and the speed nerfed to a higher magnitude. Tanks should be about staying power. You roll up on a location, pop your modules, and go nuts. But if the enemy isn't dead by the time your stuff is off coldown, running should not be viable. I'm talking at least 25% less speed and 50% less acceleration, minimum. My tank should be a slow behemoth, not a nimble quick hit-and-run vehicle like it is now. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me

Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 320	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:09:00 - [191] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Here's the thing, the HAV is running away. That should not be the case. HAVs should endure AV, not dodge or avoid it. This is the crux of the issue for me. I want my HAV to be able to sit there and soak up AV damage when my modules are up. When my modules are down, escape should not be a likely scenario. I should either a. have backup to protect me or b. hope my modules are off cooldown. But I should by no means expect my 40 ton tank to be able to jet away nearly at LAV levels of speed. Tanks don't run. They endure, or they die. I'm just throwing these hypotheticasl at you. If you could endure AV from several players, wouldn't you be better off running before your modules reach cooldown anyways? Isnt this what we currently have with armor AV engaging shield tanks? Putting us right back at square one? But you assume the tank has it's current speed. I want the resistance/hp buffed, and the speed nerfed to a higher magnitude. Tanks should be about staying power. You roll up on a location, pop your modules, and go nuts. But if the enemy isn't dead by the time your stuff is off coldown, running should not be viable. I'm talking at least 25% less speed and 50% less acceleration, minimum. My tank should be a slow behemoth, not a nimble quick hit-and-run vehicle like it is now. Would have to nerf Nitro, or else every behemoth will have one..
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7190	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:32:00 - [192] - Quote As a side note if Rattati sticks close to the numbers he has now, UHAVs will be able to eat between 7 and 10 successive AV shots from a solo gunner. The IAFG will require a reload vs. Maddy and gunnlogi. When I make my recommendations to Rattati I'm not going to recommend AV alpha be raised except on a couple specific weapons that are trash Anyway. So if Rattati takes my recommendations the alpha strike capacity will remain completely untouched except for the vanilla forge gun to put it's DPS solidly between the AFG and Breach. So it will be the middle RoF/DPS weapon. None of the weapon changes I can cook up will bring the base DPS closer to a heavy turret than about 300 DPS less at baseline based on current numbers in Rattati's proposal. So if the proto rail unmodified sits at 870 I am shooting for 500 on the IAFG Unmodded and unskilled. I firmly think that HAV main guns should have the advantage as a killer of vehicles with the infantry weapons depending more on skill, timing, positioning and personal finesse. The wall I am banging on currently is the plasma cannon. The galmando breaks it because of the reload bonus. Currently a maxed, 3 mod assault does 640 shield DPS with the PLC. Not a competitive number. The Galmando, with the universal commando reload bonus, hits 805 DPS. So that's the crux of my problem there. So short of reworking commandos entirely (don't mention the minmando, it's advantage is negligible and I have math to prove it) do any of you have ideas for mitigating this? I could simply recommend buffs for the PLC and ignore the outlier factor but I have a feeling that the outlier will make most pilots sh*t kittens. Does anyone have a creative solution idea? AV
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1271	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:33:00 - [193] - Quote I want things to go back to exactly as they were after 1.6 hit. Indestructible triple rep maddie. Stacking damage mods. Insane MLT nitros. Infantry tears. Super OP ADS Pinpoint accurate large blasters. Ect. There is absolutely NO reason anything but another tank should even stand a chance against me. Come on guys, things were fair and balanced just the way they should be back then. Kinda like Fox News. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1271	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:34:00 - [194] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: As a side note if Rattati sticks close to the numbers he has now, UHAVs will be able to eat between 7 and 10 successive AV shots from a solo gunner. I gotta ask, are you just looking at the "stock" tank? If so, you are doing it wrong. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7190	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:36:00 - [195] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: As a side note if Rattati sticks close to the numbers he has now, UHAVs will be able to eat between 7 and 10 successive AV shots from a solo gunner. I gotta ask, are you just looking at the "stock" tank? If so, you are doing it wrong. No. Some delightful bastard did EHP extrapolations based on the proto tier of each chassis using the current modules. I am going off the UHAV proto extrapolation. My assessments aren't final in any reality that we don't have finalized HAV proposal ninumbers. And they won't be relevant till phase 2 or phase 3 of the rebalance. AV
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7190	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:37:00 - [196] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: I want things to go back to exactly as they were after 1.6 hit. Indestructible triple rep maddie. Stacking damage mods. Insane MLT nitros. Infantry tears. Super OP ADS Pinpoint accurate large blasters. Ect. There is absolutely NO reason anything but another tank should even stand a chance against me. Come on guys, things were fair and balanced just the way they should be back then. Kinda like Fox News. 10/10. Will recommend to friends. AV
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1272	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:53:00 - [197] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: As a side note if Rattati sticks close to the numbers he has now, UHAVs will be able to eat between 7 and 10 successive AV shots from a solo gunner. I gotta ask, are you just looking at the "stock" tank? If so, you are doing it wrong. No. Some delightful bastard did EHP extrapolations based on the proto tier of each chassis using the current modules. I am going off the UHAV proto extrapolation. My assessments aren't final in any reality that we don't have finalized HAV proposal numbers. And they won't be relevant till phase 2 or phase 3 of the rebalance. Oh, well I don't care your "assessment", just another AV turd But are modules going to get a rework then? Because I think that's where our biggest imbalances are atm, with the current modules. And what kind of fit did this person come up with? I've been field testing different fits and there are a few very solid ones. Double extender, single hardener. Or the double hardener and single extender. Hell, I had one guy beat me in a PC with double hardeners and a nitro. Used to be a favorite fit of mine, been out of it for so long I've forgotten how well things can perform. But I'm sure there are a few more out there, especially with the buff the specialist vehicles will have. Might be a couple of different angles you should look at when you do AV and Vehicle comparisons. Is basically what I'm saying. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7192	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:05:00 - [198] - Quote I don't know, I think Pokey did the baseline fits but tentatively it looks like the Cal UHAV will have up to roughly 11,749 EHP. current alpha if I recall that's 7.72 Forge gun shots, so 8 shots to solo. Don't miss. the gallente will float around 12,706 EHP 5.94 shots with the IAFG. so 6 shots with an anti-armor weapon. But that makes sense. the cal UHAV should be more resistant. the Caldari MBT will take 4.80 shots, so 5 shots solo. the Gallente MBT 4.22 shots, so still 5 shots. that's with current. Bear in mind this is a rough guesstimate based on an extrapolation. This is pure crystal balling, so take it as a theory, not expectation of fact. If modules are addressed then the guesswork changes. but tentatively the EHP stuff is looking fairly good. I won't know more until Rattati actually finishes, but I'm fairly sure you can see why I'm against adding alpha to AV in most cases. Swarms are another ball of weird. I can't even begin to guess how well they will do, but my gut says overkill. AV
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2910	Posted - 2015.02.15 14:22:00 - [199] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I don't know, I think Pokey did the baseline fits but tentatively it looks like the Cal UHAV will have up to roughly 11,749 EHP. current alpha if I recall that's 7.72 Forge gun shots, so 8 shots to solo. Don't miss. the gallente will float around 12,706 EHP 5.94 shots with the IAFG. so 6 shots with an anti-armor weapon. But that makes sense. the cal UHAV should be more resistant. the Caldari MBT will take 4.80 shots, so 5 shots solo. the Gallente MBT 4.22 shots, so still 5 shots. that's with current. Bear in mind this is a rough guesstimate based on an extrapolation. This is pure crystal balling, so take it as a theory, not expectation of fact. If modules are addressed then the guesswork changes. but tentatively the EHP stuff is looking fairly good. I won't know more until Rattati actually finishes, but I'm fairly sure you can see why I'm against adding alpha to AV in most cases. Swarms are another ball of weird. I can't even begin to guess how well they will do, but my gut says overkill. these rough ballparks are assuming max proto vs. max proto. Of course, keeping TTK the same even with a "super awesome maximum heavy tank." The thing should have 15,000 base armor. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 320	Posted - 2015.02.15 16:13:00 - [200] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I don't know, I think Pokey did the baseline fits but tentatively it looks like the Cal UHAV will have up to roughly 11,749 EHP. current alpha if I recall that's 7.72 Forge gun shots, so 8 shots to solo. Don't miss. the gallente will float around 12,706 EHP 5.94 shots with the IAFG. so 6 shots with an anti-armor weapon. But that makes sense. the cal UHAV should be more resistant. the Caldari MBT will take 4.80 shots, so 5 shots solo. the Gallente MBT 4.22 shots, so still 5 shots. that's with current. Bear in mind this is a rough guesstimate based on an extrapolation. This is pure crystal balling, so take it as a theory, not expectation of fact. If modules are addressed then the guesswork changes. but tentatively the EHP stuff is looking fairly good. I won't know more until Rattati actually finishes, but I'm fairly sure you can see why I'm against adding alpha to AV in most cases. Swarms are another ball of weird. I can't even begin to guess how well they will do, but my gut says overkill. these rough ballparks are assuming max proto vs. max proto. Of course, keeping TTK the same even with a "super awesome maximum heavy tank." The thing should have 15,000 base armor. Yeah I am concerned the new tanks are going to have a similar base HP as the current LAV, and everyone is trying to balance the numbers around a tank being able to pop in one reload because ' It's not fair that a tank doesn't pop when I shoot in its general vicinity for 10 seconds', when I can't remember the last time drove a tank towards the letter for support and one of the following hasn't occurred in combination to one guy with proto swarms: A. Another tank starts firing on you - with swarms and missiles = near insta pop B. A manned 15, 000 ehp rail turret in redline - with swarms = near insta pop C. Every infantry player near a supply depot switching to commando or forger = insta pop D. Any 2 AV that have put a days worth of sp into AV, = unhardened certain death, hardened race to the redline. E. A random Flux, AV Nade, Remote/mine combo, = with swarms near insta death. First of all, let's make the scenario rediculous by saying there are no friendly tanks available and no installations to man. When a tank starts rolling around, the consensus is not ' it's ok we have a forger that only needs to reload once if he doesn't hit the sweet spot, just ignore it " or ' don't worry those two blueberry scouts are chasing it with militia swarms it's as good as dead '...... anyone killed by a red tank spawns in with AV nades on thier fit or fluxes MINIMUM. Everyone around a supply depot immediately swaps to thier most powerful AV fit, every squad with OBS checks to see if they can at least drop a minor Flux on said tank. 10,000 EHP is nothing when a team is focused on taking you down. If a team wanted a Thales sniper dead it would be dead, if a team wanted a rooftop uplink gin it would be gone. My concern is if players start sinking thier sp into these slow behemoth tanks, and every time ' killed by sagaris ion cannon ' comes up in the kill feed AV goes giant hunting, that the AV community is going to start an uproar about pilots not being able to get out of their redline, asking for webifiers and redline tank nerfs because it's not 'fair' that they didn't get to pop a tank. I have lost countless tanks driving into the enemy redline trying to make another tanker dead, not because it helped the team win the match, but simply to chase the dragon, which is what most AV players are doing. Tanks are like mini bosses that roll in and distract infantry enough to get the friendly hack off, if they get a couple kills with thier hardners are up they can be sure the next hardner cycle will get them hit twice as hard if you don't get popped.

Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2994	Posted - 2015.02.16 18:07:00 - [201] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: . It kinda is your fault for losing tanks in the redline chasing red tanks back to it. But you know I agree on AV. It relentlessly pounds the ever loving hell out of any and all vehicles, rendering them useless and powerless to take on enemy vehicles. Why have vehicles if AV does it cheaper and better? Why use vehicles at all? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 397	Posted - 2015.02.24 17:58:00 - [202] - Quote Well -- shield tanks are meant to be nimble beasts. Make them slow, and you will kill their effectiveness in engaging anything outside of the redline. Super AV will ******* GRIND slower tanks to a pulp. Doubt that you even know the costs of being a tanker and the uselessness we suffer when AV focus on us.
Mary Sedillo Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 397	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:00:00 - [203] - Quote Doc DDD wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I don't know, I think Pokey did the baseline fits but tentatively it looks like the Cal UHAV will have up to roughly 11,749 EHP. current alpha if I recall that's 7.72 Forge gun shots, so 8 shots to solo. Don't miss. the gallente will float around 12,706 EHP 5.94 shots with the IAFG. so 6 shots with an anti-armor weapon. But that makes sense. the cal UHAV should be more resistant. the Caldari MBT will take 4.80 shots, so 5 shots solo. the Gallente MBT 4.22 shots, so still 5 shots. that's with current. Bear in mind this is a rough guesstimate based on an extrapolation. This is pure crystal balling, so take it as a theory, not expectation of fact. If modules are addressed then the guesswork changes. but tentatively the EHP stuff is looking fairly good. I won't know more until Rattati actually finishes, but I'm fairly sure you can see why I'm against adding alpha to AV in most cases. Swarms are another ball of weird. I can't even begin to guess how well they will do, but my gut says overkill. these rough ballparks are assuming max proto vs. max proto. Of course, keeping TTK the same even with a "super awesome maximum heavy tank." The thing should have 15,000 base armor. Yeah I am concerned the new tanks are going to have a similar base HP as the current LAV, and everyone is trying to balance the numbers around a tank being able to pop in one reload because ' It's not fair that a tank doesn't pop when I shoot in its general vicinity for 10 seconds', when I can't remember the last time drove a tank towards the letter for support and one of the following hasn't occurred in combination to one guy with proto swarms: A. Another tank starts firing on you - with swarms and missiles = near insta pop B. A manned 15, 000 ehp rail turret in redline - with swarms = near insta pop C. Every infantry player near a supply depot switching to commando or forger = insta pop D. Any 2 AV that have put a days worth of sp into AV, = unhardened certain death, hardened race to the redline. E. A random Flux, AV Nade, Remote/mine combo, = with swarms near insta death. First of all, let's make the scenario rediculous by saying there are no friendly tanks available and no installations to man. When a tank starts rolling around, the consensus is not ' it's ok we have a forger that only needs to reload once if he doesn't hit the sweet spot, just ignore it " or ' don't worry those two blueberry scouts are chasing it with militia swarms it's as good as dead '...... anyone killed by a red tank spawns in with AV nades on thier fit or fluxes MINIMUM. Everyone around a supply depot immediately swaps to thier most powerful AV fit, every squad with OBS checks to see if they can at least drop a minor Flux on said tank. 10,000 EHP is nothing when a team is focused on taking you down. If a team wanted a Thales sniper dead it would be dead, if a team wanted a rooftop uplink gin it would be gone. My concern is if players start sinking thier sp into these slow behemoth tanks, and every time ' killed by sagaris ion cannon ' comes up in the kill feed AV goes giant hunting, that the AV community is going to start an uproar about pilots not being able to get out of their redline, asking for webifiers and redline tank nerfs because it's not 'fair' that they didn't get to pop a tank. I have lost countless tanks driving into the enemy redline trying to make another tanker dead, not because it helped the team win the match, but simply to chase the dragon, which is what most AV players are doing. Tanks are like mini bosses that roll in and distract infantry enough to get the friendly hack off, if they get a couple kills with thier hardners are up they can be sure the next hardner cycle will get them hit twice as hard if you don't get popped. On a side note, I love fighting you in my tank. You are experienced, and my god do your squad tankers fight rough as well. Happy that I've cost you as many tanks as you've cost me. Remember that one bridge match with tank spam on both sides? Yeah, good times.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1789	Posted - 2015.02.25 01:22:00 - [204] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Try the forge (again) It's the most reliable if not the most offensive The answer


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.

Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris

Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris

"If there is a strafe nerf in this game, remove hit detection"- manboar 2014