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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4928
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Posted - 2015.02.12 15:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Banjo Robertson wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it.
As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective.
Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily.
2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory.
Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side.
Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher.
The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more?  The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms.
The PLC is for sure a very difficult to use weapon and while it can be used at range, typically my most successful runs with it involve me getting up close and personal with an HAV which almost always ends in my death or the HAV's death, rarely do they run at that point. Also note that when I do get an HAV kill with it, its typically because I can alpha down the shield's buffer before the hardener goes up. Once that hardener is up....good luck.
I think the main problem with swarms is their concept in general. Typically Missiles in EVE are known for 2 things.
1. They're useful from their max range all the way down to 0km. They don't suffer from tracking issues, so they can target anything if its within their effective range.
2. They never miss. Damage can be reduced if the target is small/moving fast, and in exceedingly rare instances they can outrun/outrange the missiles.
What this leads to is a philosophy of "Constant Sustained DPS". They don't tear targets apart like say a Blaster would with crazy close range DPS, but what they do allow is that once you start firing on the target, that target is going to sustain moderate amounts of damage for a long period of time while they try to either kill the AVer or simply outrange the enemy. I think after the range of the Swarms got castrated, the obvious assumption was that the DPS had to increase to compensate which was reasonable...but it's also not quite working right.
I'm not advocating for a return to the crazy ranges we had before (What was it, 400m?) but it might be interesting to take a look at the concept for a longer range, lower DPS swarm launcher that is built more around long term sustained DPS rather than shorter range higher DPS.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4929
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 16:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
2. Not true you can dodge a missile for all intents and purposes by outflying the explosion forcing it to do diddly squat for damage. Its the whole reason why you don't use citadel torpedoes against interceptors.
That's damage reduction, not a miss, as I pointed out.
Obviously such comparisons of Citadels vs Frig class ships is not exactly translatable to Dust anyways.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4929
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 16:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Proto galmando shares the same difficulty getting into an optimal firing position as a sentinel.
His choice of the scout is tactically sound.
If gaining optimal position is the goal, Scout is actually pretty legit. If you're going for raw DPS with a PLC, Nothing can come close to the Gallmando. They both have merit and it comes down more so to personal playstyle.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4930
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 16:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:why should we stop at "drive off?"
No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all?
*facepalm* The reason an AV weapon would cause a vehicle pilot to be driven off IS BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT TO KILL HIM.
If a weapon isn't lethal, it's not going to drive off anyone. Otherwise people would just carry around a bag of cotton balls in order to throw to drive off muggers. "Get back or I'll swab you!"
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4930
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 16:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:why should we stop at "drive off?"
No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. As I said just before, if AV was that powerful why would anybody use vehicles at all? What's the point of all those vehicles skills then? What's the point that of Rattati trying to bring hulls back? Why have vehicles at all? why have dropsuits at all? the red dots can kill me in them! Why have LAVs at all? The red dots can kill me in them! Why have... It's a BATTLE SIMULATION! NOT A GODDAMNED TANK LOVER FAIRYLAND!
Spkr's ideal AV weapon. The Swab Launcher.
Fires harmless cotton balls at enemy vehicles. They don't do damage but the sound of cotton relentlessly bouncing off of the tanks hull will annoy them into submission and cause them to drive off.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4930
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 17:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:
Anything a vehicle can do, infantry can do 10x better, except taking good links off a roof. Again, what's the point of vehicles in that case?
And thus you've finally reached the point of the conversation where everyone has been saying "Vehicles need a more defined role on the battlefield." Congrats.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4930
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 17:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:
When have I ever said I want AV to be useless?
When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do.
But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4930
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 17:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
When have I ever said I want AV to be useless?
When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Deterrent =/= useless
That's not a number. Answer my question.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4930
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 17:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
When have I ever said I want AV to be useless?
When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Inb4 spkr, The correct answer is zero. Never assume there is only one swarmer. But that's my incubus instinct kicking in when i'm tanking.
Thats very true, but again this is speaking in a general sense. Obviously if there are 2, the time would be half, and if there are 3, the time would be a third. I just want to hear what his idea of a reasonable TTK per AVer is.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4930
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 17:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
When have I ever said I want AV to be useless?
When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Deterrent =/= useless That's not a number. Answer my question. There is no number. Deterrent is not the same as useless. Proxy mines work great. A pair of forges work great. A pair of swarms work great on a straight line. Why do pilots have to tell you how to destroy us?
So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4931
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 17:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
NINEinch WEAPON wrote:The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is..
How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing?
You have to shoot for balancing around the average skill level. Obviously if people are idiots they're going to die easier, and if they're really good they're going to be harder to kill. In reality you *can't* balance against player skill, but in design you just assume average skill to minimize large disparities due to skill.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4932
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 18:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Pokey wrote:
So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now.
I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable learn to do math. I's significantly more than 5 seconds.
Lol he's crying about a Minmatar Commando...with two swarm launchers?
Let's talk about what benefit that actually offers.
-10% Damage Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role.
-25% Reload Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role.
-Carrying two swarms basically means you save a couple fractions of a second between the third salvo and the 4th salvo by skipping the reload and switching to the other swarm. However the time savings is fairy small given the fact that the reload is already shortened from skills/bonuses.
In exchange, the double swarm Commando literally has zero way to counter any infantry whatsoever. Unless I guess he wants to bring a fist to a gun fight and punch them to death.
Like you're literally crying about a suit specifically designed to to kill armor tanks, so specialized in fact that it can't even defend itself against infantry, and you're upset that you died in 5 salvos because you somehow managed to never turn your hardener on during that entire time of being hit?
You're actually upset....that a suit custom tailored to kill you, finished you off too quickly, because you were in your weakest, unhardened state?
Not sure if I should laugh or just pity you.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4933
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 19:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
He's literally crying that the outlier justifies his claims that everything else in AV is broken.
That's basically my point. I mean if you really want to get technical, a Gallmando with 2 Officer PLC can pop a shield tank in a couple seconds, but that doesn't mean Plasma cannons are innately broken.
He's also taking an extreme case both in terms of a high specialized anti-armor AV suit vs a Madrugar which is widely regarded as being very underpowered compared to the Gunnlogi, and putting it in its weakest, unhardened state.
Im not saying swarms don't need work, because I think they do, but I don't like when people cherry pick ultra extreme examples and then portray it as the norm or the average.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4933
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 19:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:
Anything a vehicle can do, infantry can do 10x better, except taking good links off a roof. Again, what's the point of vehicles in that case?
And thus you've finally reached the point of the conversation where everyone has been saying "Vehicles need a more defined role on the battlefield." Congrats. Ever run a gunnlogi with double shield hardeners and a complex extender or double complex extenders and a single hardener with 2 small proto rails? The role becomes quite clear, killin infantry. Of course most maps don't allow for this too often given infantry's mobility in enclose areas over the tanks. And lots and lots of cover. But when you get a bridge map or other open map, you better look the **** out, cause I'm gonna **** something up. I've taken to physically switching to my top gun to kill infantry, leaving my large rail to take down big targets. Hmm and nothing sweeter than taking a tank down with a combination of your main gun, overheating it, then switching to the small to finish them off.
I have actually, those small rails do serious work on infantry. And I love swapping between my large and small to deal with different sized targets, it's a tactic that many AVers seem to get tripped up on which makes it all that much more effective.
I was however speaking in a general sense that all vehicles can't simply be focused around killing infantry, namely because you start to run into issues where a vehicle performs more like a powerup instead of an alternate role.
It's important to establish what each type of player can do and what they cannot do, and try to build a system where all of the bases get covered and everything has a means to counter each other, depending on the individual situation. So for example an HAV can't get into tiny spaces or climb ladders, but in exchange they're effectively immune to nearly all weapons in the game save a handful. Inversely, they're big and easy to hit with those AV weapons, but can also move far faster than infantry and have a longer TTK.
There are tons of factors involved which makes balancing more difficult, but it also means that there is more to it than simply damage vs HP. The numbers are important but it's also important to take the maps and weapon performance into account. If you've ever taken a statistics class you'll know that you always throw out ouliers, which is why extreme examples or overly anecdotal evidence needs to be ignored. Whats important is looking at the general performance across a wide spread of settings and situations in order to get a proper feel for what the whole story is.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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