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Slow, constant shield recharge and active armor reps

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:19:00 - [1] - Quote Obviously shield vehicles will have a higher recharge rate. Active reps are needed so that armor tanks aren't completely outclassed in every aspect. And vehicles just need to be better overall. AV is already exceedingly powerful, they don't need any more damage. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17190	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:35:00 - [2] - Quote Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:46:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I can be on at midnight Friday night my time. I can show you what a tank can do to enemies. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 7761	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:50:00 - [4] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: AV is already exceedingly powerful, they don't need any more damage. wut I routinely slam volleys of swarms into HAV and ADS only to have them harden and blap me, or hard and run to a side of the map that hasn't fitted AV yet to continue the mass murder. "You don't want McSyphilis. Don't nobody want McSyphilis." - One Eyed King
Banjo Robertson Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 454	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:55:00 - [5] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more?
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:56:00 - [6] - Quote As far as that, there are far too many people that don't listen to the beep, and have no idea I'm putting REs on their hull. I have a Gal scout I do that with; Boundless REs (yes I have them, for any others reading), packed Lai Dai, and ADV plasma. With those that have no clue, I just put the REs on the hull, fire a plasma then blow the REs, easily destroying a tank. With those that move, I need to bide my time to get enough REs on them. It's doable though. Thing is, there's those that have no clue, those that have some experience, and guys like me that tanked in PC. I hate tooting my horn, but those that tank in PC are a few cuts above the rest. We pay attention at all times, unless we're drunk. We know the advantages and disadvantages of the hulls and turrets, the limitations of our fits, etc. 1.7 was a huge blow to the crotch as far as options went, and any random person could go into vehicles and make a joke out of my experience. I'm not saying I don't want competition, or that it should take so much SP as to make vehicles unobtainable, but I want the experience and SP investment to be worth it. Bringing back some of the old vehicle attributes will certainly make things better, as well as 5% per level for shield, armor, CPU and PG. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 15575	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:57:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. That's because you were fighting people who know how to use a vehicle. The OP is not one of those people. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17192	Posted - 2015.02.12 13:57:00 - [8] - Quote Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 245	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:01:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I see your problem. You are trying to kill an Hardened vehicle all by yourself while your teamates don't do squat. In pc....I hate driving vehicles. Choo Choo
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:12:00 - [10] - Quote Atiim wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. That's because you were fighting people who know how to use a vehicle. The OP is not one of those people. Says a guy that thinks because he has SP into vehicles, that makes him a tanker. Oh, and my crazy month of PC experience > your assumptions based on very little experience. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2487	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:13:00 - [11] - Quote Killed two gunloggis this week(play about 7 matches a week) with minmando/proto swarms, but not solo. Also had one match where i held an outside point for about 5 minutes from two tanks and one infantry - died several times, ofc. AV Proto AV can currently push vehicles off points, temporarily. AV infantry has to run, hide, reposition if they want to survive the return encounter, or else find a damn sweet spot to operate from. PSN: RationalSpark
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2487	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:23:00 - [12] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Obviously shield vehicles will have a higher recharge rate. Active reps are needed so that armor tanks aren't completely outclassed in every aspect. And vehicles just need to be better overall. AV is already exceedingly powerful, they don't need any more damage. I so rarely agree with you but i do here. We've reached the point in balancing where damage/EHP are prolly not the answer. Would be far more interesting/productive to focus on things like tools that could modify a vehicle's mobility, repair cycle, visibility(on the HUD and on the tacnet). And let's not forget Evicer's LAV-mounted swarm launchers. Yes it requires devtime, but it's prolly something we want in the final game(Legion or DUST) anyway. PSN: RationalSpark
Slave of MORTE Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 289	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:24:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Try a demolition scout Adv packed av nade swarms re's Nanohive on a armor type scout running 1 kinkat the rest complex reactive with damage mods in highs ...say hello to cqc vehicle devastation .. Run adv packed av nades proto are not worth fitting cost Minmando is mostly for posting For gers in the current meta mostly post however if you really wanna test av effectiveness Fit a assault forge and packed av nades on a sentinel call a lav ..and go jump a tank . Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
Brush Master Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1439	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:25:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Are you running with a squad? I think this threads shows the large gaps between the perception and skill gaps of players. AV nades, yes, they need the amount carried increased. I will also point out that every time we buff AV to deal with tanks we majorly effect Dropships as they are not tanks and are hit by the same AV weapons plus are much more exposed. To me, I think weapons need to be a bit more specialized, like short range swarms with massive damage with lower tracking and long range swarms with less damage and better tracking. Dust Veteran. June 2012 - ? True Logi. Flying DS from the start. @dustreports
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 9549	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:39:00 - [15] - Quote By any chance Rattati were you facing Shield Gunlogis? Because Shield Gunlogis are a pain by itself but then you have the dual tanked issue which makes it even worse Rattati. I run Plasma Cannon as my only AV and you are correct, it is painfully UP even against shields when compared to swarms which it's supposed to be good at but even then Swarms outperform PLCs against a defense they are supposed to be weak against. Madrugars on the other hand are pretty easy for me to take out compared to Gunlogis and even Sicas that are properly fitted. But that's more of an issue of the Gallente HAVs being terrible. I digress and have no clue what I'm rambling on about but what I'm trying to say is that Dual Tanked Gunlogis are the main issue with HAVs right now. The ease of dual tanking is way too easy and way too effective and coupled with the fact that all AV save for one is weak against shields you're always going to have a terrible time taking out HAVs in this game as long as this meta is around. *~New Eden's #1 Gallente Arm's Dealer*
Ku Shala UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE 1251	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:52:00 - [16] - Quote the only way to effectively take out a gunlogi is to trap it with 2-3 av players most tankers have a routine pay attention to the retreat path. *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Superior technology will privale.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12048	Posted - 2015.02.12 14:57:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. Yes, and I hope one day the PLC will be good enough to justify having it on Gallente AV starter fits. If you ever give the MD full efficacy against vehicles, would fit nicely on Minmatar anti-armor starter fit (though honestly should just be called anti-vehicle for clarity) Support 'Keshava' for the new Gallente HAV name in honor of Cat Merc's cat which recently passed away.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7133	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:14:00 - [18] - Quote Hey Rattati I don't have the ability to record. So if you're willing, I can show you what it takes to solo the vehicles manually in squad. It's not impossible, but it can seem so for someone who has not been doing it forever. But it's absolutely stupid the level of setup and time it takes to pull off. Also I'm willing to bet you haven't fought a madrugar rather than boatloads of sica and gunnlogi. So if you want to get in on it let me know. I'll show you all of the dirty tricks and tactics that don't involve tower sniping. AV
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 415	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:20:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Thanks for taking the time to experience the bullshit that is being AV. I just want to say that I think the major problems with AV v. Tank right now is the Gunnlogi being absurdly overpowered and the "windows of opportunity" philosophy of balancing tilts everything in favor of vehicles, especially when those windows are long enough and the cooldown is short enough that the vehicle can use them whenever they are engaged, since vehicles generally control the time and place of engagement this becomes an overwhelming and insurmountable advantage (think scouts, if scouts had modules that made them largely invincible for half their run time). In my personal experience when both running AV and running my vehicle character that, while I may not have as rough a time as you are having (you scrub), I feel its pretty much impossible to kill a pilot who is paying attention and is basically competent. AV feels useless except as a way to drive away vehicles for very short amounts of time. Add to this that firing AV is very obvious and you have very limited ammo, and those short amounts of time generally result in being picked off either by infantry or by vehicles from very long range, or getting driven off your nanohive and having it popped, leaving you with less and less ammo over time, eventually making you useless by attrition. The same dynamic exists against dropshippers, but is much more tightly balanced, so that while a single AV player cannot ever really kill a dropship that is paying attention, multiple AV can make running a dropship prohibitively dangerous. This makes running dropships pretty un-fun especially given that swarms pretty much will hit you unless you run away (evasive action is limited to running as far away as possible, unlike vs. forge guns). Anyway I can keep going about how un-fun the current vehicle balance is, but Ill just stop here.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 875	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:31:00 - [20] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. have you tried.... suicide jeep?

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4928	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:39:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. The PLC is for sure a very difficult to use weapon and while it can be used at range, typically my most successful runs with it involve me getting up close and personal with an HAV which almost always ends in my death or the HAV's death, rarely do they run at that point. Also note that when I do get an HAV kill with it, its typically because I can alpha down the shield's buffer before the hardener goes up. Once that hardener is up....good luck. I think the main problem with swarms is their concept in general. Typically Missiles in EVE are known for 2 things. 1. They're useful from their max range all the way down to 0km. They don't suffer from tracking issues, so they can target anything if its within their effective range. 2. They never miss. Damage can be reduced if the target is small/moving fast, and in exceedingly rare instances they can outrun/outrange the missiles. What this leads to is a philosophy of "Constant Sustained DPS". They don't tear targets apart like say a Blaster would with crazy close range DPS, but what they do allow is that once you start firing on the target, that target is going to sustain moderate amounts of damage for a long period of time while they try to either kill the AVer or simply outrange the enemy. I think after the range of the Swarms got castrated, the obvious assumption was that the DPS had to increase to compensate which was reasonable...but it's also not quite working right. I'm not advocating for a return to the crazy ranges we had before (What was it, 400m?) but it might be interesting to take a look at the concept for a longer range, lower DPS swarm launcher that is built more around long term sustained DPS rather than shorter range higher DPS. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5971	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:44:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Are you experimenting with HAV's on an Alt as well? I know, as you have pointed out before, you don't have to have personal experience with something to develop it, however, it does certainly help. And since the vehicle balance is a fairly in-depth and long term project, it would be worth trying to get a bit of a feel for the vehicle experience. I spent a month focused exclusively on piloting HAV's a while back so that I would have a more informed opinion when it came to AV balance discussions. (I wrote a guide after the experience.) Anyway, I found it to be a very useful exercise, and I would recommend it to you. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1196	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:48:00 - [23] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: ... If you ever give the MD full efficacy against vehicles... Yes please, I don't get why we don't have this :/ Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Vyuru Algintal Core Gallente Federation 84	Posted - 2015.02.12 15:54:00 - [24] - Quote I run a shield tanked Gunlogi, and I can break it down just a bit to how I react: Minmando with proto swarms - run away. I can get out of range without using any modules if I need to, but they hit hard and it's really easy for a second AV'er to take me out depending on circumstances. Most anything with Adv swarms - I can take a couple of hits before moving away, not terribly concerned if it's just one. Two makes me retreat. Militia/basic swarms - I can eat those almost all day long, the one time I faced them in an Adv fitted tank I am not sure they even broke my shield regen. Also, speaking as a player, I don't even bother with AV (I'm thinking primarily swarms) when fighting vehicles. I find it a little bit boring, though forge guns or plasma cannons can be fun when used right. The forge gun for me is almost a strictly anti dropship weapon. If I'm dealing with LAVs or HAVs, I either pull out a tank or go JLAV them. I can chase down a tank in another tank much easier than I can on foot with AV. JLAVs are just fun for the shock and awe effect they have on tanks, and the horror when you pin a enemy LAV against the wall, hop out, set off RE's, and blow the enemy LAV to pieces. And now I get to do it in Quafe LAV style Swarms and forge guns used correctly (typically with teamwork) work just fine against most vehicles IMO. Plasma Cannons on there own could use a little something, but they are devastatingly effective when used in conjunction with AV/Flux grenades, or REs. And you can count me in the group that thinks there should be a Mass Driver variant that deals good damage vs vehicles and maybe could be used as a light vehicles (LAV/DS) deterrent. Either in the form of a heavy weapon or just a variant on the existing MD we have.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2901	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:06:00 - [25] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: AV is already exceedingly powerful, they don't need any more damage. wut I routinely slam volleys of swarms into HAV and ADS only to have them harden and blap me, or hard and run to a side of the map that hasn't fitted AV yet to continue the mass murder. You already accomplished making them run away. What more do you want, a certain kill from just 3 volleys? If that were the case, what would be the point of using vehicles? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7137	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:09:00 - [26] - Quote why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. AV
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 18659	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:10:00 - [27] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. The PLC is for sure a very difficult to use weapon and while it can be used at range, typically my most successful runs with it involve me getting up close and personal with an HAV which almost always ends in my death or the HAV's death, rarely do they run at that point. Also note that when I do get an HAV kill with it, its typically because I can alpha down the shield's buffer before the hardener goes up. Once that hardener is up....good luck. I think the main problem with swarms is their concept in general. Typically Missiles in EVE are known for 2 things. 1. They're useful from their max range all the way down to 0km. They don't suffer from tracking issues, so they can target anything if its within their effective range. 2. They never miss. Damage can be reduced if the target is small/moving fast, and in exceedingly rare instances they can outrun/outrange the missiles. What this leads to is a philosophy of "Constant Sustained DPS". They don't tear targets apart like say a Blaster would with crazy close range DPS, but what they do allow is that once you start firing on the target, that target is going to sustain moderate amounts of damage for a long period of time while they try to either kill the AVer or simply outrange the enemy. I think after the range of the Swarms got castrated, the obvious assumption was that the DPS had to increase to compensate which was reasonable...but it's also not quite working right. I'm not advocating for a return to the crazy ranges we had before (What was it, 400m?) but it might be interesting to take a look at the concept for a longer range, lower DPS swarm launcher that is built more around long term sustained DPS rather than shorter range higher DPS. 1. This is true they have full effectiveness within range HOWEVER because of that missiles cannot benefit from crits a mechanics eve online uses which is basically dice rolling every hit. 2. Not true you can dodge a missile for all intents and purposes by outflying the explosion forcing it to do diddly squat for damage. Its the whole reason why you don't use citadel torpedoes against interceptors. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 81	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:14:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Last night my ADD or OCD kicked and I wasted 8-9 Cal SCTs, proto nades, cmplx dmg mds x2, adv swarms. I got the tank after I surrounded him (Crotchgrab360). Tankers can hear way too much and swarms should be faster in flight.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4929	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:15:00 - [29] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: 2. Not true you can dodge a missile for all intents and purposes by outflying the explosion forcing it to do diddly squat for damage. Its the whole reason why you don't use citadel torpedoes against interceptors. That's damage reduction, not a miss, as I pointed out. Obviously such comparisons of Citadels vs Frig class ships is not exactly translatable to Dust anyways. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 839	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:15:00 - [30] - Quote @ Rattati Not going to disagree with your experiences, but do you mind if I try to put them into context? Any competent tanker will more often or not simply drive away. Vet tankers are also used to the ins and outs of AV, they know gunlogis are the most effective defense against swarms, the most common AV, and PLCs are too rare to really be taken as a legit threat. The biggest threat to a tank has always been another tank. This lead to rapid cull of militia/ part time tankers. Its only a tough solid core of tankers left from the 1.7 tank bonanza. Also, you need some significant alpha to kill a tank on the first go. A vet tanker knows he has the hp to survive alpha vs 1 AV. VS 2 AV the balance is in the AVs favor, time to retreat and pick them off. Its a wierd sort of balance where 1 tank beats 1 AV but two AV beat 1 tank. On your suits, Minandos wreck dropships because of high sustained damage, and dropship have only open sky to hide behind. Shield tanks can negate most of that damage and turn a corner to getaway. Since you're a big gallente fan i'm surprised your not useing a proto galmando for AV PLC. It has high HP, high native regen, +10% damage, + 10% reload speed, throw on a breach AR and a K2 and you have a much better chance than running up at a tank with a scout. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.



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