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Pocket Rocket Girl
Psygod9
295
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Posted - 2015.02.12 21:32:00 -
[151] - Quote
Mary Sedillo wrote:Pocket Rocket Girl wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:Pocket Rocket Girl wrote:[
Still too OP for Spker they need to be nerfed meow, how do you expect balanced game if tanks are being pelted by cotton balls and causing them to drive off backwards in a straight line.... up a hill.... with 1200 shields.... and 4000 armor Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team. Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit. oh i know hun i was just being sarcastic the last part is actually what happened when i came across spker and i was using a dual swarm minmando I've seen those. Can tell by how hard they hit lol.
I can say even when i have squad mate i never go in with the expectation of destroying a vehicle. i do ADS, DS and at times use a tank but rarely ( not really a good driving them) but when i do i have no problem with AV from my experience rail tanks are another story though. When i do get shot down its because of AV using team work, im not paying attention to whats around me and hitting a building, or being too cocky or a combo of the 3 other than that i have no problem out flying swarms dodging forge rounds and when i do get hit by the plazma cannon its a female dog to recover from the kockback but other than that i think AV is fine and so are vehicles
Sir Dukey-
If one person is smart he should be able to keep vehicle at bay but not destroy it unless its a stupid driver
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1755
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Posted - 2015.02.12 22:02:00 -
[152] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it.
As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective.
Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily.
2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory.
Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side.
Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher.
The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least.
You are probably a bad player because there is no one HAV that can be effective when I am around. I may not kill him but hey, i'm happy with getting +75 +75 +75. Not to mention, that when I am around in my ADV minmando swarm fit, most tanks and especially ADS stay away. Now, had there been 2 Minmandos, those tanks and ADS's would literally have certain death.
Get gud?
Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
1755
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Posted - 2015.02.12 22:02:00 -
[153] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Banjo Robertson wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it.
As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective.
Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily.
2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory.
Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side.
Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher.
The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more?  The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms.
False, a Gallante Commando with Dual PLC's can bring my unhardened 5300 shields to 1000.
Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7162
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Posted - 2015.02.12 22:40:00 -
[154] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Banjo Robertson wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it.
As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective.
Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily.
2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory.
Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side.
Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher.
The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. False, a Gallante Commando with Dual PLC's can bring my unhardened 5300 shields to 1000.
You're not going to gain much traction complaining that AV bonused for your tank type hits hard when your hardeners are down.
And the commando is not the only suit that can employ the PLC effectively.
AV
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
17259
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Posted - 2015.02.12 23:10:00 -
[155] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it.
As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective.
Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily.
2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory.
Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side.
Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher.
The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Are you experimenting with HAV's on an Alt as well? I know, as you have pointed out before, you don't have to have personal experience with something to develop it, however, it does certainly help. And since the vehicle balance is a fairly in-depth and long term project, it would be worth trying to get a bit of a feel for the vehicle experience. I spent a month focused exclusively on piloting HAV's a while back so that I would have a more informed opinion when it came to AV balance discussions. (I wrote a guide after the experience.) Anyway, I found it to be a very useful exercise, and I would recommend it to you.
Yes I am, but it's really just because I want to be able to deploy a DHAV and take HAVS out, so I can go back to shooting people with rifles 
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
17143
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Posted - 2015.02.12 23:12:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Yes I am, but it's really just because I want to be able to deploy a DHAV and take HAVS out, so I can go back to shooting people with rifles
That statement, conjouring imagines of a youthful gleam in the eye and rife with exuberant cheek, is rather disconcerting.......
"This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
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pumping up
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
209
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Posted - 2015.02.12 23:23:00 -
[157] - Quote
Slave of MORTE wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it.
As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective.
Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily.
2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory.
Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side.
Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher.
The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Try a demolition scout Adv packed av nade swarms re's Nanohive on a armor type scout running 1 kinkat the rest complex reactive with damage mods in highs ...say hello to cqc vehicle devastation .. Run adv packed av nades proto are not worth fitting cost Minmando is mostly for posting For gers in the current meta mostly post however if you really wanna test av effectiveness Fit a assault forge and packed av nades on a sentinel call a lav ..and go jump a tank .
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=http%3a%2f%2fgoo.gl%2fsnCv7c&domain=goo.gl
add AV nade bonus to it :p
Help me gain the C-II Dropsuit
Pilot & Saboteur
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
677
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:01:00 -
[158] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it.
As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective.
Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily.
2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory.
Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side.
Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher.
The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least.
And in contrast I killed multiple vehicles in the last few games I played with an Apex Sentinel.
But we did it as a we -- with other AVers in concert. I won't say that vehicles are easy to pop. Any good tanker or DS pilot runs the hell away SUPER fast. So they are super hard to pop. But doable in a good squad.
And ONLY in a good squad.
Part of that problem is the amount of mobility HAVs have and the lack of durability + afterburner speed DSs have. Maybe ya'll could try moving to the trifecta "got 3 choose 2 model?"
You know, if you use a service you can get Cheap, Fast, or Well Done -- choose 2.
Vehicles: Offense, Defense, Speed -- choose 2.
EDit note: Italics added to separate vehicles by attributes -- not add emphasis. |
tritan abbattere
DBAG CORE
38
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:01:00 -
[159] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:
Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team.
Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant
to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit.
1 player = 1 player A single AVer should be able to stand toe to toe with any single vehicle. Stop with all this "teamwork for thee, but not for me" bullshit. Accept that 1 player should be able to kill you without too much trouble, because that's just how good FPSs work.
Thats how a generic FPS works. This is a FPS based on economics. For this to be fair tanks should be cheaper then even though it will not make sense at all. A basic tank should cost maybe 20K isk. I agree for now as long as this is match making it should be 1 on 1 should be a flip of the coin weighted by skill. If you can not do this the second best thing is keep there current price and make them better in which case new players will just hate the game and vets will counter with tanks and lose isk. One of my friends tried to do a respec only into vehicles and he could not make isk at all. in 1 day of trying to make isk while playing his specialized role of being an ADS he lost 20 million in 1 day.
Mary Sedillo wrote:
Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team.
Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant
to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit.
Because there not meant to be lost often yet you do causes a lot of friction between vehicle pilots and people that spec in AV. And what is said about tanks about working as a team to prevent a loss of a tank is true for drop suits just as well. A full squad that has a few needles and a logi working together will survive and make profit on the battlefield. This includes Proto gear. Right now vehicles are the least looked at thing for balance in terms of profitability.
Now if I'm missing something or a mechanic that is placing this in the wrong please point it out.
I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
677
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:07:00 -
[160] - Quote
tritan abbattere wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:
Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team.
Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant
to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit.
1 player = 1 player A single AVer should be able to stand toe to toe with any single vehicle. Stop with all this "teamwork for thee, but not for me" bullshit. Accept that 1 player should be able to kill you without too much trouble, because that's just how good FPSs work. Thats how a generic FPS works. This is a FPS based on economics. For this to be fair tanks should be cheaper then even though it will not make sense at all. A basic tank should cost maybe 20K isk. I agree for now as long as this is match making it should be 1 on 1 should be a flip of the coin weighted by skill. If you can not do this the second best thing is keep there current price and make them better in which case new players will just hate the game and vets will counter with tanks and lose isk. One of my friends tried to do a respec only into vehicles and he could not make isk at all. in 1 day of trying to make isk while playing his specialized role of being an ADS he lost 20 million in 1 day. Mary Sedillo wrote:
Guys, tanks aren't that hard to run off if you work as a team.
Also consider the price of a well-fit tank. They aren't meant
to lose as many of them per game as a dropsuit.
Because there not meant to be lost often yet you do causes a lot of friction between vehicle pilots and people that spec in AV. And what is said about tanks about working as a team to prevent a loss of a tank is true for drop suits just as well. A full squad that has a few needles and a logi working together will survive and make profit on the battlefield. This includes Proto gear. Right now vehicles are the least looked at thing for balance in terms of profitability. Now if I'm missing something or a mechanic that is placing this in the wrong please point it out.
o.O so much reasonableness!!! |
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manboar thunder fist
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
364
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:07:00 -
[161] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it.
As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective.
Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily.
2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory.
Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side.
Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher.
The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least.
You're doing it wrong.
With a forge or minmando I can take out both infantry and vehicles extremely well. I guess it's just experience.
It only takes 2 forge shots if you hit the sweetspot, which you should aim for every time, it's pretty big.
You can one shot infantry which is pretty easy if you can aim, and that op dmg bonus on combat rifles and swarms firing a clip in less than 5 seconds makes it pretty easy to kill vehicles really.
Sorry, but it's true.
"If there is a strafe nerf in this game, remove hit detection"- manboar 2014
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killian178
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
121
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:07:00 -
[162] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:By any chance Rattati were you facing Shield Gunlogis?
Because Shield Gunlogis are a pain by itself but then you have the dual tanked issue which makes it even worse Rattati.
I run Plasma Cannon as my only AV and you are correct, it is painfully UP even against shields when compared to swarms which it's supposed to be good at but even then Swarms outperform PLCs against a defense they are supposed to be weak against.
Madrugars on the other hand are pretty easy for me to take out compared to Gunlogis and even Sicas that are properly fitted. But that's more of an issue of the Gallente HAVs being terrible.
I digress and have no clue what I'm rambling on about but what I'm trying to say is that Dual Tanked Gunlogis are the main issue with HAVs right now. The ease of dual tanking is way too easy and way too effective and coupled with the fact that all AV save for one is weak against shields you're always going to have a terrible time taking out HAVs in this game as long as this meta is around.
In order to dual tank a gunlogi, you need armor and shield optimizations to lvl 3-5, soooo, you kinda pay for that tiny, tiny, tiny advantage, with like 4 mil sp, just in those specializations..........
Just sayin
Every commando k.o, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
17147
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:23:00 -
[163] - Quote
killian178 wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:By any chance Rattati were you facing Shield Gunlogis?
Because Shield Gunlogis are a pain by itself but then you have the dual tanked issue which makes it even worse Rattati.
I run Plasma Cannon as my only AV and you are correct, it is painfully UP even against shields when compared to swarms which it's supposed to be good at but even then Swarms outperform PLCs against a defense they are supposed to be weak against.
Madrugars on the other hand are pretty easy for me to take out compared to Gunlogis and even Sicas that are properly fitted. But that's more of an issue of the Gallente HAVs being terrible.
I digress and have no clue what I'm rambling on about but what I'm trying to say is that Dual Tanked Gunlogis are the main issue with HAVs right now. The ease of dual tanking is way too easy and way too effective and coupled with the fact that all AV save for one is weak against shields you're always going to have a terrible time taking out HAVs in this game as long as this meta is around. In order to dual tank a gunlogi, you need armor and shield optimizations to lvl 3-5, soooo, you kinda pay for that tiny, tiny, tiny advantage, with like 4 mil sp, just in those specializations.......... Just sayin
Sure but in all honestly Dual Tanking, and especially on Caldari content, should not be viable or encouraged.
Especially not on a Standard Hull. 10,000 eHP is just too much.
Gimme some time because I don't think you need that much SP to build 10k eHP tank..... off the top of my head I think I could do it for less than 10 Million SP (Imma take that bet against myself)
"This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6647
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:23:00 -
[164] - Quote
Uprising 1.7 Pilots wrote:manboar thunder fist wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks.
You're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
419
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:48:00 -
[165] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Banjo Robertson wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it.
As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective.
Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily.
2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory.
Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side.
Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher.
The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. False, a Gallante Commando with Dual PLC's can bring my unhardened 5300 shields to 1000.
Oh man, how convincing! Quick everyone lets balance AV around rediculous AV fits that dont work and tankers who dont react to damage! |
Mary Sedillo
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
389
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:58:00 -
[166] - Quote
I don't think they need to nerf AV. I just think they need to buff the Gallente Tanks a bit so the explosive-heavy AV'rs can have something to shoot at again! :) |
Pseudogenesis
Nos Nothi
1736
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Posted - 2015.02.13 01:16:00 -
[167] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms.
Be careful with what you do to the PLC. There are many people (myself included) who would be very upset if the PLC's anti infantry capabilities were changed. It's one of those weapons that doesn't necessarily have to be "balanced" to be fun.
If it was going to get buffed though, I would imagine that increasing the direct damage a bit would be the way to go.
Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ
I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
17150
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Posted - 2015.02.13 01:24:00 -
[168] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:
Oh man, how convincing! Quick everyone lets balance AV around ridiculous AV fits that don't work and tankers who don't react to damage!
You are now my favourite.
"This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2908
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Posted - 2015.02.13 02:37:00 -
[169] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
honestly it's pointless. Spkr4thedead is pissed off that he basically ignored by treating everyone in the HAV feedback thread like trash.
This is more of the same, only he's bringing his other buddy from back in the day who also liked to say get gud scrub when the HAVs were averaging between 20 and 50 KD in beta.
I treat people like trash by pointing out where they're wrong, as well as pointing out bad ideas? You make it sound like I'm saying bad things about their families.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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tritan abbattere
DBAG CORE
38
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Posted - 2015.02.13 02:43:00 -
[170] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:
honestly it's pointless. Spkr4thedead is pissed off that he basically ignored by treating everyone in the HAV feedback thread like trash.
This is more of the same, only he's bringing his other buddy from back in the day who also liked to say get gud scrub when the HAVs were averaging between 20 and 50 KD in beta.
I treat people like trash by pointing out where they're wrong, as well as pointing out bad ideas? You make it sound like I'm saying bad things about their families.
from the few replies i have read from you you seem to jump to conclusions with out thinking much.
Harpyja wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Would it be possible to set swarms faster but with a maximum turn rate of 30 degrees per second?
Is it also possible to make them update their trajectory relative to target location more often?
I of course have no nefarious intentions regarding these things at all.
Honest. You want them even faster? 60m/s isn't enough for you, now you want them even faster? Why? Escape velocity to hit the warbarge? And even smarter? Going around 3 corners? Can't we pilots have anything nice? You're not getting it. Even at 60m/s, a 30 degree / second turn speed equates to a turning radius of 115 meters. Simply doing a 180 results in a usage of almost its max 400 meters. All you have to do is get your transversal velocity high enough and you're almost guaranteed that they'll never hit you once they miss you the first time around.
Here this is a rebalanced if not a buff to drop ships if your skilled enough to figure out how to get your transverse high at the last second and you responded as if its a Complete buff to AV. I think its a neat post to look at and should be considered by talking about it in a creative and helpful way.
Link to post I quoted
I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
319
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Posted - 2015.02.13 04:27:00 -
[171] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it.
As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective.
Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily.
2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory.
Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side.
Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher.
The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least.
I don't see how you arent popping tanks in a scout if you are sneaking up to them unhardened and:
1- Plc blast to rear
2- Packed Lai dai X 2
3- Aim Plc and blast
or sneak up and
1-Swarm to rear
2-Packed Lai dai X 2
3- Swarm and Swarm again
or
1-Enter any building
2-Get as high as possible
3-Rain swarms at tank until dead
or
1-Find tiny hill
2-Stand on opposite side of hill as tank
3-Rain swarms on tank while dancing around hill for cover
or
1-take dropship to any highpoint on map
2-Rain AV on all tanks all match
or
1-drop nanohive behind tank
2-Packed Lai dai, Packed Lai dai, Packed Lai dai, Packed Lai dai
If you are saying you hit a tank once and he turns around and shoots you in his tank then I don't think you have this whole infantry AV thing figured out yet, your goal should be to have him jump out of his tank to try and kill you right before his tank pops. That is if he doesn't run away.
Is it that you think by merely getting behind a tank with a scout that the tank should have a 90% chance of popping if the players are of equal skill? Because that makes running tanks pointless.
If I run an AV fit as a pilot, does that mean in any tank engagement my opponents tank will always pop because even if he beats me fairly I can jump out and claim his wounded tank as a trophy? Because it's getting to the point that Missile tanks are emptying their clips into me then jumping out with AV while reloading only to jump back to empty 12 more Missiles at me.
Ratatti, spawn as your minmando, shoot one volley at a gunlogi, lock on again, watch him activate hardeners, release swarms, count his shield loss, then watch where he goes... reload your swarms and watch out for infantry, now take 20 seconds to relocate closer to his redline, his hardeners will wear off and you can fire 3 volleys into a paper thin tank. If you notice he only has one hardener then empty a couple clips into him and he will pop. HARDENERS ARE THE ONLY THING KEEPING TANKS FROM INSTANTLY POPPING.
Of course you could always do what everyone else is doing and just get on top of any structure and bunnyhop around with the av of your choice getting +75 every couple seconds.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2908
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Posted - 2015.02.13 05:30:00 -
[172] - Quote
tritan abbattere wrote:
from the few replies i have read from you you seem to jump to conclusions with out thinking much.
I usually don't need to spend time thinking of a reply, or spending 3 seconds to read and absorb every single word. I can fire out responses quickly because I know what does and what does not work. I can point out when people lie as well, like someone saying a Soma can tank 7000 damage launched in a few seconds.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7168
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Posted - 2015.02.13 08:38:00 -
[173] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:tritan abbattere wrote:
from the few replies i have read from you you seem to jump to conclusions with out thinking much.
I usually don't need to spend time thinking of a reply, or spending 3 seconds to read and absorb every single word. I can fire out responses quickly because I know what does and what does not work. I can point out when people lie as well, like someone saying a Soma can tank 7000 damage launched in a few seconds.
In short, he knows everything and anyobe who disagrees with him even slightly is wrong and trying to ruin the game.
AV
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2174
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Posted - 2015.02.13 09:10:00 -
[174] - Quote
I'm just going to do some stream of consciousness style posting here. Disclaimer: Not all points will be well argued or supported, but I feel that they have some merit to them, most of this is opinion but I'll try to ground with some supported reasoning. This post may have some terrible formatting in places, I hope it doesn't get to be too wall-of-texty.
To start with, I feel like 'waves of opportunity' is a failed design premise, the way it has ended up panning out is that vehicles are either alive and nigh-invincible (we'll get to the madrugar being underpowered in a bit) or they're about to be really ****ing dead. In the case of smart vehicle users any situation where they would be about to be dead, they instead opt to leave the battlefield and wait for modules to cool down. When all of this is paired with the high rep values currently in game it's akin to always having to fight a lightning fast sentinel suit that has full hp if it gets out of your sight for 15 seconds. In short it's impossible to grind down a vehicle due to speed & rep values. Vehicle hp is either full & modules are up (they're invincible), or their hp is full & modules are down (they're going to flee) or their hp isn't full and their modules are down (they're about to die). When experiencing this as an av player, you always feel like you're fighting a vehicle when it's 'invincible' and you cant do anything to them. When playing like this as a vehicle user you feel horrifically weak and underpowered unless your cooldowns are all up - your best option is to flee because you feel underpowered instead of reasonably durable.
On both sides of the equation, there's horrific differences between standard weapons/modules and prototype weapons/modules. Proto swarms are 20% better than basic before proficiency, the commando bonus that minmatar (should not) have then you toss complex damage mods on that and you can have a massive damage gap. In essence higher levels of sp/isk investment (in any role) is similar to choosing to play with an advantageous 'handicap' in dust... a handicap that can amount to >30% damage and +100-200% hp on top of having more experience actually playing that role. With all this variance it's hard to achieve any points of balance. On vehicles you want to fit multiple of the 'best' module so you're never weak / always playing with advantageous handicap. PLC and Forge operation should be changed to reload speed (3% per level) and with all AV weapons damage should be standardized a bit more (buff weaker weapons, nerf overperformers), Minmando needs to lose swarm 'bonus' (seriously, it is the FOTM AV fit), Proficiency on AV weapons should go towards fitting cost reduction or something. On vehicle side I'm not certain how to correct, I'd probably favor a return to 1.6 style things of better modules being easier to fit, and vehicles more oriented towards passive resistances and slightly slower speeds, less incentive to flee the battlefield after killing your one installation / vehicle etc.
This ties in with both of my previous walls of text. One source of anti-vehicle or anti-infantry (infantry or vehicle) is often ineffectual against a target... it may be a 'threat' but vehicles/infantry can avoid it but multiple sources of av/ai utterly smash the crap out of things. I'll admit that this is more oriented as an av rant, but I feel that there's a bit too much disparity between how good one av/ai is and how good multiples are. Nyain-San / DunaCorp tankbush was real and couldn't be stopped because there were too many targets and there's also a flipped situation where one av is 'whatever' but two avers can instakill things (2x wiyrkomi breach forge, or 2x wiyrkomi swarm vs armor tank).
I had a bullet point here that I want to re-iterate: "waves of opportunity" design incentivizes flight over fight, massively. Vehicles feel incredibly weak with modules down or like unstoppable gods with modules up. If we moved back to a system like 1.6 (with not-terrible shield recharge. Seriously 5 ****ing minutes to get shields back on a gunnlogi? I'm okay with a minute or so) vehicles would feel like they could stay on the field with their passive modules and wait it out for their repairers / boosters / recharge, this would probably be much less frustrating for infantry and vehicles alike, it would also allow vehicles to be flanked / overwhelmed.
Finally getting to my bullet point that certain hulls / vehicles perform MUCH better or MUCH worse than intended because there's a lack of weapon parity and the 'good' weapons are too powerful at certain things. Madrugars don't exist on the battlefield currently because swarms / missile tanks instantly kill them... whereas the 'good' av weapons aren't as good vs shields, and the weapons that *are* good against shields are either underpowered or can be mitigated to the point of being ineffectual. More types of AV means more variables, this could be very good.
Final bullet point: Vehicle users hate dying simply because it means that we go deep in the red if so much as a single loss is incurred... due to the isk costs associated with vehicles it feels like we shouldn't be losing them, if vehicles cost less in terms of isk, people would be much more okay with losing them.
Edit: Forgot my random bit of hatespeech about the swarm launcher being disproportionately easier to use than other av because of its 'fire and forget' and 'cant miss' (yes you can lose missiles to terrain) nature. There's been many suggestions on this - I wouldn't mind seeing it have to maintain target lock to hit and getting a proportional damage buff because of it.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7168
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Posted - 2015.02.13 10:52:00 -
[175] - Quote
Sorry mina, thoroughly disagree with you on the skill changes.
Minnatar explosive bonus is a borderline nonfactor, and even at advanced the primary benefit comes from the reload bonus which sharply increases the long term DPS. At no point does the math bear up to the claim that the minmando is notably superior. Perception can lie.
Removing the charge bonus from forges will neuter the entire weapon line and make it impossible to do enough damage fast enough to kill a vehicle. The reload benefit is of marginal utility, not even failing to mitigate the loss of sustained DPS which is already sub-400.
what seems at first to be a reasonable change rapidly becomes a critical issue (we will cite charge times and madrugar fitting), or covers up the actual problem (minmatar commando explosive bonus).
There are actual problems but you're missing the mark on wgwhat they are.
AV
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2176
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 11:02:00 -
[176] - Quote
^Breakin, I didn't mean to imply that forge guns should be left at current (pre operation) charge values. Much like the plasma cannon I'd like to see them standardized at their current (max operation) charge values. Forge guns do need some improving (notably on the standard / breach variants).
And if minmatar explosive bonus is a non-factor why is EVERYONE running that suit? EVERYONE. I can see it several times a match and a lot of the time it's from PC corps. All adv/proto minmando with 2x damage mods and wiyrkomi swarms. It may not have an 'effect' on dropship TTK, but something seems out of line with it being so omnipresent.
In short I want to see some of the gap closed between basic and proto on both sides and I want vehicle players to stay on the field where they can be worn down instead of running away to the red line the moment they don't have modules up.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Mortishai Belmont
G.L.O.R.Y
General Tso's Alliance
516
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Posted - 2015.02.13 11:18:00 -
[177] - Quote
Personally I feel rail tanks need something done with them, as they re perfect for both infantry and anti-tanking. It doesn't make sense to really run anything else and that's why 80% of the tankers use gunlogis with a rail on it. They need to shake violently so they can't kill infantry or something, it's kinda making the blaster obsolete.
As a proto forge gun user, I can tell you the problem are with the gunlogis more then the madrugers. Since there are no shield proficient AV weapons in the game, armor tanks are outclassed in both speed and survivability. Not to mention they are hard to fit a missile or rail onto, so your left with the blaster to make the most of it, but again, the rail outclasses it even in killing infantry.
I find most people kill me while I'm running, even in a scout suit, and seldom need a second shot with even a militia rail turret.
G.L.O.R.Y Soldier,
I'm that Amarr heavy you warn your team about <3
-Heavy/Logi/Assault/Scout-
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7171
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 12:24:00 -
[178] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:^Breakin, I didn't mean to imply that forge guns should be left at current (pre operation) charge values. Much like the plasma cannon I'd like to see them standardized at their current (max operation) charge values. Forge guns do need some improving (notably on the standard / breach variants).
And if minmatar explosive bonus is a non-factor why is EVERYONE running that suit? EVERYONE. I can see it several times a match and a lot of the time it's from PC corps. All adv/proto minmando with 2x damage mods and wiyrkomi swarms. It may not have an 'effect' on dropship TTK, but something seems out of line with it being so omnipresent.
In short I want to see some of the gap closed between basic and proto on both sides and I want vehicle players to stay on the field where they can be worn down instead of running away to the red line the moment they don't have modules up.
Minmatar explosive bonus is a psychological advantage. The core problem with the minmando is not the minmando. The bonus doesn't. Alter the number of shots to kill. If you want to see the culprit click on the link on my sig.
Go to the swarm tab
Look at the bottom table. Three Damage mods, max skill vs. Shields. The DPS counts have to be scrolled right to locate. If the mando bonus was OP the galsent PLC combo wouldn't still be a joke.
WHat the minmando adds to that table of DPS is an approximate 4% boost. The Sustained (with reloads) is further right. The universal 25% commando reload speed affects THAT. But not the raw DPS.
AV
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
2908
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Posted - 2015.02.13 13:17:00 -
[179] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:tritan abbattere wrote:
from the few replies i have read from you you seem to jump to conclusions with out thinking much.
I usually don't need to spend time thinking of a reply, or spending 3 seconds to read and absorb every single word. I can fire out responses quickly because I know what does and what does not work. I can point out when people lie as well, like someone saying a Soma can tank 7000 damage launched in a few seconds. In short, he knows everything and anyobe who disagrees with him even slightly is wrong and trying to ruin the game.
I don't try to ruin infantry just because I get out-ranged by a rail rifle, or try to fight a sprint strafing scout.
Why are you trying to ruin vehicles simply because you don't use them?
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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emm kay
Direct Action Resources
257
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 13:32:00 -
[180] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:AV is already exceedingly powerful, they don't need any more damage. wut I routinely slam volleys of swarms into HAV and ADS only to have them harden and blap me, or hard and run to a side of the map that hasn't fitted AV yet to continue the mass murder.
you're bad at AV, then :P
you don't just fire and forget, ripley.
You fire and follow up.
There is a reason you never see me in battle.
it's because I see you first.
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