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Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:33:00 - [61] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Deterrent =/= useless That's not a number. Answer my question. There is no number. Deterrent is not the same as useless. Proxy mines work great. A pair of forges work great. A pair of swarms work great on a straight line. Why do pilots have to tell you how to destroy us? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4930	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:35:00 - [62] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Deterrent =/= useless That's not a number. Answer my question. There is no number. Deterrent is not the same as useless. Proxy mines work great. A pair of forges work great. A pair of swarms work great on a straight line. Why do pilots have to tell you how to destroy us? So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
NINEinch WEAPON WarRavens Capital Punishment. 55	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:36:00 - [63] - Quote The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? "winning" an inch at a time
Gabriel Ceja Ready to Play 89	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:36:00 - [64] - Quote I'm not sure about when the new tanks come out but with the status quo AV is in a pretty good spot the problem is not the AV because you never hear about a armor tank, DS, or ADS that they couldn't kill because it ate their swarms. The problem according to most threads like this is the shield tanks that can just stand there and take the beating but even the tanks itself is not to blame it is the ability to stack shield hardeners. When shield hardeners are stacked swarms can no longer do enough damage to stop the shield regen from kicking in so if anything the best thing to do is not allow hardeners to be stacked, even if it does lower the already scarce fitting options, because it's not only a problem for AV but it also poses a problem to armor tank users. The stacking of hardeners is also an imbalance among tanks because if you think swarms look bad hitting a harden stacked shield tank you should see how pitiful the large blaster turret is against a tank like that. "Throw on the flux capacitor." activates fuel injector "WOOOOOO!!!"
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4931	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:40:00 - [65] - Quote NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? You have to shoot for balancing around the average skill level. Obviously if people are idiots they're going to die easier, and if they're really good they're going to be harder to kill. In reality you can't balance against player skill, but in design you just assume average skill to minimize large disparities due to skill. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2169	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:07:00 - [66] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I can be on at midnight Friday night my time. I can show you what a tank can do to enemies. Like get wrecked by malleus? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:22:00 - [67] - Quote Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
DDx77 The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 125	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:23:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. --- You have highlighted every single problem I have with av. The worst is getting picked off by other infantry while trying to lock on a hav. - half the time it is the driver or a secondary player that leaves the vehicle to kill me I think the main issue is the large blaster. No matter how much you reduce dispertion, players will always try to use it to farm infantry. What if (in an alt universe:)......remove that weapon but buff small turrets. Especially small rail so they can target high targets. Or turn it into a infantry shield killing weapon/ emp vehicle disable tool? You've probably noticed that when there are two or more capable hav the match quickly turns into a stomp. In general I have found it best when not in a coordinated team to not chase any hav. Use speed to get in a good position and run away as needed but wait for the hav to come to you. I am using: C/1 scout All dmg mods Cloak Kin cat Adv swarms Ps....please please please remove bandwidth from proxy mines and re's - for av purposes Boosting : Allowing the server to protect people from other countries from taking damage
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:23:00 - [69] - Quote NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? We can't always hear them. Experience can't be factored in. Experience leads to nerfs. We get handicapped because we have experience. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7137	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:26:00 - [70] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable learn to do math. I's significantly more than 5 seconds. AV

DUST Fiend Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 15722	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:28:00 - [71] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. Please just keep in mind that dropships aren't tanks, and if you go buffing AV without compensating our HP (or bringing back native resists) we will die to math in most engagements with no opportunity to evade said firey, mathematic fate. My YouTube (currently inactive) Homeless Dropship Enthusiast "See You Space Cowboy"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7138	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:29:00 - [72] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? We can't always hear them. Experience can't be factored in. Experience leads to nerfs. We get handicapped because we have experience. experience has nothing to do with it. I actually fought a good tanker who supported their squad and was supported by them. gunnlogi surived on fire with a sliver of armor at the EoM. so precisely what difficulty are you having surviving AV if you're as slick as you think you are? AV
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:29:00 - [73] - Quote Gabriel Ceja wrote: I'm not sure about when the new tanks come out but with the status quo AV is in a pretty good spot the problem is not the AV because you never hear about a armor tank, DS, or ADS that they couldn't kill because it ate their swarms. The problem according to most threads like this is the shield tanks that can just stand there and take the beating but even the tanks itself is not to blame it is the ability to stack shield hardeners. When shield hardeners are stacked swarms can no longer do enough damage to stop the shield regen from kicking in so if anything the best thing to do is not allow hardeners to be stacked, even if it does lower the already scarce fitting options, because it's not only a problem for AV but it also poses a problem to armor tank users. The stacking of hardeners is also an imbalance among tanks because if you think swarms look bad hitting a harden stacked shield tank you should see how pitiful the large blaster turret is against a tank like that. Swarms kill the regen with 2 hardeners active. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 841	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:32:00 - [74] - Quote NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? Thats a tough one, and i don't think anybody in dust has a satisfactory answer. The nature of the infantry gameplay and vehicle gameplay are just so wildly different, and unique just to dust because of the isk player economy. Because of whichVehicle priority is about surviving first and getting kills second. Infantry priority is getting kills first and surviving second. I can illustrate it like this: Getting 20-6 in a infantry suit is considered at worst pretty good match. 20-6 for a tanker is, well utterly disasterous. Vehicles will never have a similar k/d ration or metric as infantry. If you cant keep your tank/dropship alive on a consistent basis, then you can't afford to tank or fly. The metrics i'm aware of is only good for an approximation. You can tell if numbers are far out of line, but only within a limitied context. Like the "godmode" dropships seemed to enjoy to players who didnt fly or used swarms felt hardmode to anybody in the air. Swarmers assumed because dropships escaped from them dropships never died, Pilots assumed they always died to everything except swarms. Escaping swarms took little skill then, and getting hit by swarms takes little skill now. Niether scenario has still been balanced. Or Tank spam post 1.7 was when powerful expensive rare tanks became powerfull cheap spammable tanks, which lead to nerfing every aspect of the then most common tank, the armor blaster. Reps, hardner, turret and speed took a hit, and its hard counter, the large missile turret got a major buff. Now people rarely use the armor tank anymore. Getting armor tanks balanced again has been going on since the end of 2014. All everyone has to go on is rough guidlines on kill/spawn and anecdotal evidence from each balance pass. Since the "feeling" in will always be a bit subjective, we just have to roll with the punches and try to make as good an argument we can about how our individual subjective experiences can work out for the general group of dut gamers. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:36:00 - [75] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I can be on at midnight Friday night my time. I can show you what a tank can do to enemies. Like get wrecked by malleus? I wasn't soloed. What part about that don't you understand? It takes 2 or more to take me out in most cases: 2 tanks, 2 AV, combo of the two. You just don't accept that I have extensive experience. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2380	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:37:00 - [76] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? We can't always hear them. Experience can't be factored in. Experience leads to nerfs. We get handicapped because we have experience. experience has nothing to do with it. I actually fought a good tanker who supported their squad and was supported by them. gunnlogi surived on fire with a sliver of armor at the EoM. so precisely what difficulty are you having surviving AV if you're as slick as you think you are? He just doesn't want to die or use teamwork, while insisting AVers die to him easily and require teamwork to kill him. Home at Last <3
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:39:00 - [77] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable learn to do math. I's significantly more than 5 seconds. Switching to a second swarm is 0 reload time. Play the game more than once every 3 months. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7140	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:42:00 - [78] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable learn to do math. I's significantly more than 5 seconds. Switching to a second swarm is 0 reload time. Play the game more than once every 3 months. basing your argument on an outlier fit that's rarely used isn't valid for setting the discussion standard. Learn to talk to people without being a douche. AV
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2380	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:43:00 - [79] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. I can be on at midnight Friday night my time. I can show you what a tank can do to enemies. Like get wrecked by malleus? I wasn't soloed. What part about that don't you understand? It takes 2 or more to take me out in most cases: 2 tanks, 2 AV, combo of the two. You just don't accept that I have extensive experience. Then why do you always cry about vehicles being underpowered when, from your own mouth, it usually takes 2+ people to kill you? I don't get where you are coming from here. Are you a skilled player that 1v2s regularly, or a whiner? You can't be both without being an *******. Home at Last <3
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4932	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:43:00 - [80] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable learn to do math. I's significantly more than 5 seconds. Lol he's crying about a Minmatar Commando...with two swarm launchers? Let's talk about what benefit that actually offers. -10% Damage Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -25% Reload Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -Carrying two swarms basically means you save a couple fractions of a second between the third salvo and the 4th salvo by skipping the reload and switching to the other swarm. However the time savings is fairy small given the fact that the reload is already shortened from skills/bonuses. In exchange, the double swarm Commando literally has zero way to counter any infantry whatsoever. Unless I guess he wants to bring a fist to a gun fight and punch them to death. Like you're literally crying about a suit specifically designed to to kill armor tanks, so specialized in fact that it can't even defend itself against infantry, and you're upset that you died in 5 salvos because you somehow managed to never turn your hardener on during that entire time of being hit? You're actually upset....that a suit custom tailored to kill you, finished you off too quickly, because you were in your weakest, unhardened state? Not sure if I should laugh or just pity you. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 981	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:44:00 - [81] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. Different angle: How many vehicles should a pilot expect to lose in a typical public skirmish match? My favorite Myron comes in at ~180k ISK. I typically make less than that per match because I seldomly have the time to squad up and mCRUs are still bugged. That means I do my financial planning based on the hypothesis that I lose 1 or less DS per match. On the other hand catching AV-fire, including rail-HAVs, happens anywhere between 3-20 times a match (roughly guessing here...). That means, if I want to believe that flying dropships is financially stable, I need to expect AV have a 5-33% chance of killing me per engagement. That in turn means I must expect AV to be a deterrent to me at most. Thus, to provide a short answer: Due to the price of vehicles. By the way, this argument doesn't mean I expect to be able to withstand AV no problems. I gladly accept that, as soon as I had any chance to realize that someone spawned an AV fit, I need to gtfo and stay reasonably far away (>150 m). This is the direct counter to my role, after all. In turn, if you didn't bring any AV you need to stay out of open areas if you hear the DS-noise to avoid being blown up. That seems fair. Thus, to answer the other question about how long a pilot should be able to linger after becoming aware of AV: About 1 second sounds reasonable. If I hesitate any longer I should be required to considerably out-play the other player if I want to survive. Notice how this includes the fact that any time two (competently skilled) AV join up I accept defeat with no chance to counteract. This seems fair, even if very frustrating as a pilot.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 841	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:53:00 - [82] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Lol he's crying about a Minmatar Commando...with two swarm launchers? Let's talk about what benefit that actually offers. -10% Damage Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -25% Reload Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -Carrying two swarms basically means you save a couple fractions of a second between the third salvo and the 4th salvo by skipping the reload and switching to the other swarm. However the time savings is fairy small given the fact that the reload is already shortened from skills/bonuses. In exchange, the double swarm Commando literally has zero way to counter any infantry whatsoever. Unless I guess he wants to bring a fist to a gun fight and punch them to death. Like you're literally crying about a suit specifically designed to to kill armor tanks, so specialized in fact that it can't even defend itself against infantry, and you're upset that you died in 5 salvos because you somehow managed to never turn your hardener on during that entire time of being hit? You're actually upset....that a suit custom tailored to kill you, finished you off too quickly, because you were in your weakest, unhardened state? Not sure if I should laugh or just pity you. I'm going to stick up spkr here, albeit in a limited fashion. I would livid at a double swarm minando on a rooftop. That being said, thats the rarest form of AV i have seen or heard of. I would call it one a in a million but there arent that many people on dust. Non hardened armor tanks are regular enough. Dual swarm minandos, no way. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7141	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:57:00 - [83] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Lol he's crying about a Minmatar Commando...with two swarm launchers? Let's talk about what benefit that actually offers. -10% Damage Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -25% Reload Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -Carrying two swarms basically means you save a couple fractions of a second between the third salvo and the 4th salvo by skipping the reload and switching to the other swarm. However the time savings is fairy small given the fact that the reload is already shortened from skills/bonuses. In exchange, the double swarm Commando literally has zero way to counter any infantry whatsoever. Unless I guess he wants to bring a fist to a gun fight and punch them to death. Like you're literally crying about a suit specifically designed to to kill armor tanks, so specialized in fact that it can't even defend itself against infantry, and you're upset that you died in 5 salvos because you somehow managed to never turn your hardener on during that entire time of being hit? You're actually upset....that a suit custom tailored to kill you, finished you off too quickly, because you were in your weakest, unhardened state? Not sure if I should laugh or just pity you. I'm going to stick up spkr here, albeit in a limited fashion. I would livid at a double swarm minando on a rooftop. That being said, thats the rarest form of AV i have seen or heard of. I would call it one a in a million but there arent that many people on dust. Non hardened armor tanks are regular enough. Dual swarm minandos, no way. He's literally crying that the outlier justifies his claims that everything else in AV is broken. AV
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2902	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:01:00 - [84] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? We can't always hear them. Experience can't be factored in. Experience leads to nerfs. We get handicapped because we have experience. experience has nothing to do with it. I actually fought a good tanker who supported their squad and was supported by them. gunnlogi surived on fire with a sliver of armor at the EoM. so precisely what difficulty are you having surviving AV if you're as slick as you think you are? I'm frequently solo, but as I said, yes, experience does matter, as it has saved me many times. I don't usually have infantry backup, or tank backup. So yes, experience does matter. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4933	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:01:00 - [85] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: He's literally crying that the outlier justifies his claims that everything else in AV is broken. That's basically my point. I mean if you really want to get technical, a Gallmando with 2 Officer PLC can pop a shield tank in a couple seconds, but that doesn't mean Plasma cannons are innately broken. He's also taking an extreme case both in terms of a high specialized anti-armor AV suit vs a Madrugar which is widely regarded as being very underpowered compared to the Gunnlogi, and putting it in its weakest, unhardened state. Im not saying swarms don't need work, because I think they do, but I don't like when people cherry pick ultra extreme examples and then portray it as the norm or the average. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1270	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:03:00 - [86] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Depends on the tank type. Sure against a shield tank it's like hitting a brick wall. I know as I have run those exclusively for quite some time now. PLC is like impossible to apply consistent damage, though I came across a PLC user that really gave me quite a run for my money. Though for the most part they end as you describe it. Swarms on shields are mostly ineffective as well, even pro swarms and prof 4 (which doesn't do anything against shield tanks), it's a struggle to down even a SICA at times. And have you run across a shield tank running double smalls? You want to talk frustrating (I have seen it from both perspectives). Though if you throw in another swarm launcher or other AV source you WILL push that tank back. Unless it has a death wish (or good gunners) Get an armor tank out there though and it's a WHOLE different story. I don't even bother running armor anymore, because using one means eventual death. They turn like brick, take a while to get going and pretty much everything does HUGE BONUS DAMAGE. And forget running smalls to help out, just end up hurting yourself more losing all that tank to do it. EVERYONE I know and other tankers I have talked to all say the same thing. At one time they were big fans of armor tanks but all of them have had to migrate over to the gunnlogi. And rare is it they actually pull out armor, making it even harder on any AV out there. That said, I've had much more success than yourself against tanks running pro swarms. Not much more but I do have a few kills under my belt. Best suggestion is to run an LAV, using it to close distance and maintain it when needed. Or hell, use the damn thing as bait, calling another one in as they try to destroy the first one. Keeps them occupied and a little confused. But like I said before, this grand master plan of yours is just going to result in exactly the same thing when 1.6 hit. You aren't even balancing anything. You are basically starting from scratch for like the 3rd time now. Address the issues we have now and balance from there. Things are close to being balanced as it is, tanks are not utter crap as many have mentioned (as you yourself have seen), and yes we do need variety. Fix some of the glaring issues at hand first and build from there. So sick of these "do overs". Take our main battle tanks now, balance em out, then shift that balance proportionately in the direction you want for the new variants UHAV +25% armor, -25 large turret damage, -15% speed, +10% resist. Pulling stuff from my butt yes, but you really need a base line IE current tanks, then start doing the give and take tango for other variants. So fix current imbalances first please:) But keep in mind tanks are not totally useless at the moment. If you ever need proof, jump in my tank or another good driver running guns. Get good with those small rails and marvel at what a difference a tank can make on the outcome of a match. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2862	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:05:00 - [87] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Banjo Robertson wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Does this mean you wana buff the plasma cannon some more? The very least it means that AV is not inordinately powerful. The PLC is actually, as demonstrated by Breakin, painfully UP compared to Swarms. You should try the Forge Gun. Pretty much anything that's not a damage-modded proto FG doesn't even stand a chance. I have Proficiency V with 2 damage mods and I have trouble killing Sicas. I can't even imagine some newbie that's speccing into Forges for the first time feels like. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2903	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:10:00 - [88] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? We can't always hear them. Experience can't be factored in. Experience leads to nerfs. We get handicapped because we have experience. experience has nothing to do with it. I actually fought a good tanker who supported their squad and was supported by them. gunnlogi surived on fire with a sliver of armor at the EoM. so precisely what difficulty are you having surviving AV if you're as slick as you think you are? He just doesn't want to die or use teamwork, while insisting AVers die to him easily and require teamwork to kill him. Where did I say I don't want to die? It's inevitable in a huge target. I use teamwork, like in a Python when they were still good because I had my own SP into them. Where did I say I want infantry to die easily to me? You're literally pulling BS out of thin air, accusing me of things I've never said Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1271	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:12:00 - [89] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Anything a vehicle can do, infantry can do 10x better, except taking good links off a roof. Again, what's the point of vehicles in that case? And thus you've finally reached the point of the conversation where everyone has been saying "Vehicles need a more defined role on the battlefield." Congrats. Ever run a gunnlogi with double shield hardeners and a complex extender or double complex extenders and a single hardener with 2 small proto rails? The role becomes quite clear, killin infantry. Of course most maps don't allow for this too often given infantry's mobility in enclose areas over the tanks. And lots and lots of cover. But when you get a bridge map or other open map, you better look the ** out, cause I'm gonna ** something up. I've taken to physically switching to my top gun to kill infantry, leaving my large rail to take down big targets. Hmm and nothing sweeter than taking a tank down with a combination of your main gun, overheating it, then switching to the small to finish them off. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2903	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:15:00 - [90] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pokey wrote: So basically you have no idea what the appropriate time to kill is. In other words you are incapable of being constructive to the balance process, as you don't actually have a means to offer up any quantitative suggestions. At least every can see that clearly now. I'm sure you want it to be one second, probably less. Double swarm Minmando can take out an unhardened armor tank in 5 volleys. I would know, it's happened to me. So that's a little over 5 seconds. That's unacceptable learn to do math. I's significantly more than 5 seconds. Switching to a second swarm is 0 reload time. Play the game more than once every 3 months. basing your argument on an outlier fit that's rarely used isn't valid for setting the discussion standard. Learn to talk to people without being a douche. So you instantly dismiss it because you don't use it. Great argument you have there. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff



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