DUST Search - Slow, constant shield recharge and active armor reps

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it.

As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective.

Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily.

2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory.

Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side.

Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher.

The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least.

Here's the thing, the HAV is running away. That should not be the case. HAVs should endure AV, not dodge or avoid it. This is the crux of the issue for me. I want my HAV to be able to sit there and soak up AV damage when my modules are up. When my modules are down, escape should not be a likely scenario. I should either a. have backup to protect me or b. hope my modules are off cooldown. But I should by no means expect my 40 ton tank to be able to jet away nearly at LAV levels of speed. Tanks don't run. They endure, or they die.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 839	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:15:00 - [1] - Quote @ Rattati Not going to disagree with your experiences, but do you mind if I try to put them into context? Any competent tanker will more often or not simply drive away. Vet tankers are also used to the ins and outs of AV, they know gunlogis are the most effective defense against swarms, the most common AV, and PLCs are too rare to really be taken as a legit threat. The biggest threat to a tank has always been another tank. This lead to rapid cull of militia/ part time tankers. Its only a tough solid core of tankers left from the 1.7 tank bonanza. Also, you need some significant alpha to kill a tank on the first go. A vet tanker knows he has the hp to survive alpha vs 1 AV. VS 2 AV the balance is in the AVs favor, time to retreat and pick them off. Its a wierd sort of balance where 1 tank beats 1 AV but two AV beat 1 tank. On your suits, Minandos wreck dropships because of high sustained damage, and dropship have only open sky to hide behind. Shield tanks can negate most of that damage and turn a corner to getaway. Since you're a big gallente fan i'm surprised your not useing a proto galmando for AV PLC. It has high HP, high native regen, +10% damage, + 10% reload speed, throw on a breach AR and a K2 and you have a much better chance than running up at a tank with a scout. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 840	Posted - 2015.02.12 16:30:00 - [2] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: why should we stop at "drive off?" No one has yet provided an adequate explanation. You , as well as any vehicle AV or infantry AV, should not either stop or be satisfied at "drive off", but its up to you to pursue the tank and destroy it. Thats true for both tankers, ADS's and AV when engaging a tank. Fighting from a fixed point is good for area denial, but once the area has been denied, can't really expect most tanks that survived the ambush to come back to the same spot. Which is why we have damage points, rewards everybody for the ones that got away. Its the same vs Infantry. Scout/ min assaults may use speed to simply run away when in trouble. If i don't chase him/her down an kill them, thats on me, not the assault suit. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 840	Posted - 2015.02.12 17:25:00 - [3] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: When have I ever said I want AV to be useless? When you said "I want it to be a deterrent, not a means to counter vehicles". Id find the direct quote but I'm at work and honestly have better things to do. But hey I'll entertain the crown, tell me, if you're in a tank and someone is hitting you with swarms. How long do you feel is a reasonable amount of time that you can sit there and take it in the face before you have to leave? I want a number of seconds in a generalize situation. An average, if you will. Inb4 spkr, The correct answer is zero. Never assume there is only one swarmer. But that's my incubus instinct kicking in when i'm tanking. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 841	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:32:00 - [4] - Quote NINEinch WEAPON wrote: The other day we managed to drop a python with a lazor rifle, massdriver and combat rifle,... that was a bad pilot.. Not watching his health. Good pilots however, can hear the swarms before they hit. So my question is.. How do you factor pilot skills into your balancing? Thats a tough one, and i don't think anybody in dust has a satisfactory answer. The nature of the infantry gameplay and vehicle gameplay are just so wildly different, and unique just to dust because of the isk player economy. Because of whichVehicle priority is about surviving first and getting kills second. Infantry priority is getting kills first and surviving second. I can illustrate it like this: Getting 20-6 in a infantry suit is considered at worst pretty good match. 20-6 for a tanker is, well utterly disasterous. Vehicles will never have a similar k/d ration or metric as infantry. If you cant keep your tank/dropship alive on a consistent basis, then you can't afford to tank or fly. The metrics i'm aware of is only good for an approximation. You can tell if numbers are far out of line, but only within a limitied context. Like the "godmode" dropships seemed to enjoy to players who didnt fly or used swarms felt hardmode to anybody in the air. Swarmers assumed because dropships escaped from them dropships never died, Pilots assumed they always died to everything except swarms. Escaping swarms took little skill then, and getting hit by swarms takes little skill now. Niether scenario has still been balanced. Or Tank spam post 1.7 was when powerful expensive rare tanks became powerfull cheap spammable tanks, which lead to nerfing every aspect of the then most common tank, the armor blaster. Reps, hardner, turret and speed took a hit, and its hard counter, the large missile turret got a major buff. Now people rarely use the armor tank anymore. Getting armor tanks balanced again has been going on since the end of 2014. All everyone has to go on is rough guidlines on kill/spawn and anecdotal evidence from each balance pass. Since the "feeling" in will always be a bit subjective, we just have to roll with the punches and try to make as good an argument we can about how our individual subjective experiences can work out for the general group of dut gamers. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 841	Posted - 2015.02.12 18:53:00 - [5] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Lol he's crying about a Minmatar Commando...with two swarm launchers? Let's talk about what benefit that actually offers. -10% Damage Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -25% Reload Bonus from Commando, that's fine, part of the role. -Carrying two swarms basically means you save a couple fractions of a second between the third salvo and the 4th salvo by skipping the reload and switching to the other swarm. However the time savings is fairy small given the fact that the reload is already shortened from skills/bonuses. In exchange, the double swarm Commando literally has zero way to counter any infantry whatsoever. Unless I guess he wants to bring a fist to a gun fight and punch them to death. Like you're literally crying about a suit specifically designed to to kill armor tanks, so specialized in fact that it can't even defend itself against infantry, and you're upset that you died in 5 salvos because you somehow managed to never turn your hardener on during that entire time of being hit? You're actually upset....that a suit custom tailored to kill you, finished you off too quickly, because you were in your weakest, unhardened state? Not sure if I should laugh or just pity you. I'm going to stick up spkr here, albeit in a limited fashion. I would livid at a double swarm minando on a rooftop. That being said, thats the rarest form of AV i have seen or heard of. I would call it one a in a million but there arent that many people on dust. Non hardened armor tanks are regular enough. Dual swarm minandos, no way. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 841	Posted - 2015.02.12 19:21:00 - [6] - Quote You know guys, since the HAV and Turret feedback threads closed, I was wondering how long it would take for threads like these crop up. Ahhhh, so familiar. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 842	Posted - 2015.02.12 20:58:00 - [7] - Quote Here is the whole balance in a nutshell. 1 tank vs Infantry = Tank wins 1 Infantry AV vs 1 tank = tank advantage 2 Infantry AV vs 1 Tank, = AV advantage 1 Tank + 1 infantry vs 2 AV = Infantry advantage, Tank and AV disadvantage. 1 Tank + 1 infantry AV vs 1 tank = Tank and AV advantage 2 Tank VS 2 AV = whoever gets first kill has advatange. 1 infantry vs 1 AV = infantry advantage. 1 infantry AV vs ADS = AV advantage 1 infantry vs 1 ADS= ADS wins 2 infantry AV vs 1 or more ADS= Infantry AV wins Most of threads are about people gettin the short end of the stick in each situation. Think outside the box. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 845	Posted - 2015.02.13 21:49:00 - [8] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Just as a player, I have not been able to kill a single vehicle in the last few weeks. And I am dedicating myself, to really see how it is, by always spawning in as AV when I see any vehicle and going after it. As an experiment I have had two to three proto AV fits, both a cloak scout plc and/or Minmando swarms, on my main. I am simply terrible with RE's so I don't even run them. I always fit Proto AV grenades, but they are not overly effective. Against a semi-competent driver that doesn't panic and drive into a wall, there is no way to kill a HAV. They simply harden and rail or blast me, fairly easily. 2 AV scare most HAV's away. Thing is about PLC is that it is very difficult to hit a moving target, the first shot is a hit, 2nd maybe and then you are in dream territory. Even fitted as I am, the last two week KDR against HAV's is approximately 0-20 on my side. Against random guys that start shooting me when I am trying to AV, I am probably a 5/30 KDR with my measly scout HP, or screenfilling swarm launcher. The situation is not even close to what you are describing, for me at least. Here's the thing, the HAV is running away. That should not be the case. HAVs should endure AV, not dodge or avoid it. This is the crux of the issue for me. I want my HAV to be able to sit there and soak up AV damage when my modules are up. When my modules are down, escape should not be a likely scenario. I should either a. have backup to protect me or b. hope my modules are off cooldown. But I should by no means expect my 40 ton tank to be able to jet away nearly at LAV levels of speed. Tanks don't run. They endure, or they die. I'm just throwing these hypotheticasl at you. If you could endure AV from several players, wouldn't you be better off running before your modules reach cooldown anyways? Isnt this what we currently have with armor AV engaging shield tanks? Putting us right back at square one? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.