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CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8708	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:09:00 - [1] - Quote Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, Iwe're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 114	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:18:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, Iwe're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes Very good, and finally, my python will actually not get instagibbed or get 3 shotted by forges... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6414	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:19:00 - [3] - Quote Seems pretty solid to me, honestly. I figured that six missiles would be more beneficial (less likely to lose damage from hitting something en route to the target) but when you mentioned the physical impact against Dropships, four seems fine. I am -kinda- concerned about the impact the EHP increases will have, particularly on the disparity between the two as far as maneuverability vs EHP is concerned, but it's nothing that's game-breaking. Keep up the good work. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1758	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:22:00 - [4] - Quote All I read was Python buff. This is going to be a good update.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11230	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:23:00 - [5] - Quote I'm not speaking from my own experience but rather an Assault dropship pilot I know, and according to him Pythons are already better than Incubi. The extra HP they gain isn't worth the mobility loss at all, couple that with how the only AV that can reliably hit a dropship is anti armor and that Pythons get the best turret, and Incubi are already quite bad. The only good part is that they don't get knocked around as much from swarms but that's being reduced. This would seal the deal. Would also like to ask, is it really smart to reduce swarm damage AND increase dropship HP? In addition to reducing the amount of knockback they have. To me it just seems like an unnecessary buff, Assault dropships already kick major arse, and only need a slight ISK cost reduction. A good dropship pilot cannot be taken down 1v1. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 115	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:31:00 - [6] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I'm not speaking from my own experience but rather an Assault dropship pilot I know, and according to him Pythons are already better than Incubi. The extra HP they gain isn't worth the mobility loss at all, couple that with how the only AV that can reliably hit a dropship is anti armor and that Pythons get the best turret, and Incubi are already quite bad. The only good part is that they don't get knocked around as much from swarms but that's being reduced. This would seal the deal. Would also like to ask, is it really smart to reduce swarm damage AND increase dropship HP? In addition to reducing the amount of knockback they have? To me it just seems like an unnecessary buff, Assault dropships already kick major arse, and only need a slight ISK cost reduction. A good dropship pilot cannot be taken down 1v1. Edit: The Assault Dropship pilot is DUST Fiend. Every incubus has afterburnurs, doesn't get all wierd when hovering, looks better, and has constant regen... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Cheydinhal Guard Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 137	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:31:00 - [7] - Quote I don't know about this. Maybe you should choose one first and see how it works out. Either nerf Swarms and keep the Hp the same, or leave swarms untouched and buff Dropship HP. As we learned in 1.7, buffing something and nerfing it's counter simultaneously isn't a good idea. AmarrAssault, GalAssault, GalLogi, CalScout GalLogi to the end
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 115	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:32:00 - [8] - Quote Cheydinhal Guard wrote: I don't know about this. Maybe you should choose one first and see how it works out. Either nerf Swarms and keep the Hp the same, or leave swarms untouched and buff Dropship HP. As we learned in 1.7, buffing something and nerfing it's counter simultaneously isn't a good idea. Have you seen pythons get wrecked? Swarms wreck them, forges 3 shot them, and swarms are mainly used on tanks I think. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 706	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:34:00 - [9] - Quote I will commence to construct a Myron with over 9k ehp. It will be glorious. And slow. Would you mind adjusting the transport assist ratio up a (tiny) bit?
boba's fetta Shining Flame Amarr Empire 762	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:43:00 - [10] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I'm not speaking from my own experience but rather an Assault dropship pilot I know, and according to him Pythons are already better than Incubi. The extra HP they gain isn't worth the mobility loss at all, couple that with how the only AV that can reliably hit a dropship is anti armor and that Pythons get the best turret, and Incubi are already quite bad. The only good part is that they don't get knocked around as much from swarms but that's being reduced. This would seal the deal. Would also like to ask, is it really smart to reduce swarm damage AND increase dropship HP? In addition to reducing the amount of knockback they have? To me it just seems like an unnecessary buff, Assault dropships already kick major arse, and only need a slight ISK cost reduction. A good dropship pilot cannot be taken down 1v1. Edit: The Assault Dropship pilot is DUST Fiend. Every incubus has afterburnurs, doesn't get all wierd when hovering, looks better, and has constant regen... swarm user here. incubus are way easier to take down.

Silver Strike44 Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 114	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:43:00 - [11] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: I don't know about this. Maybe you should choose one first and see how it works out. Either nerf Swarms and keep the Hp the same, or leave swarms untouched and buff Dropship HP. As we learned in 1.7, buffing something and nerfing it's counter simultaneously isn't a good idea. Have you seen pythons get wrecked? Swarms wreck them, forges 3 shot them, and swarms are mainly used on tanks I think. Why shouldnt dropships be 3 shotted by forges? Doesnt a full clip being needed from a non-locking, charge-up av weapon on one of the fastest and hard to hit targets in the game seem a bit extreme? Me: Donate to The Rammeh McRam House Charity. Scrub: What's the cause? Rammeh: I'm retarded.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11235	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:49:00 - [12] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I'm not speaking from my own experience but rather an Assault dropship pilot I know, and according to him Pythons are already better than Incubi. The extra HP they gain isn't worth the mobility loss at all, couple that with how the only AV that can reliably hit a dropship is anti armor and that Pythons get the best turret, and Incubi are already quite bad. The only good part is that they don't get knocked around as much from swarms but that's being reduced. This would seal the deal. Would also like to ask, is it really smart to reduce swarm damage AND increase dropship HP? In addition to reducing the amount of knockback they have? To me it just seems like an unnecessary buff, Assault dropships already kick major arse, and only need a slight ISK cost reduction. A good dropship pilot cannot be taken down 1v1. Edit: The Assault Dropship pilot is DUST Fiend. Every incubus has afterburnurs, doesn't get all wierd when hovering, looks better, and has constant regen... I told that to Fiend, apparently Pythons are still faster than an Incubus with an afterbrurner. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11235	Posted - 2014.07.24 18:50:00 - [13] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: I don't know about this. Maybe you should choose one first and see how it works out. Either nerf Swarms and keep the Hp the same, or leave swarms untouched and buff Dropship HP. As we learned in 1.7, buffing something and nerfing it's counter simultaneously isn't a good idea. Have you seen pythons get wrecked? Swarms wreck them, forges 3 shot them, and swarms are mainly used on tanks I think. Both of those wreck Incubi even harder. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cheydinhal Guard Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 137	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:01:00 - [14] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: I don't know about this. Maybe you should choose one first and see how it works out. Either nerf Swarms and keep the Hp the same, or leave swarms untouched and buff Dropship HP. As we learned in 1.7, buffing something and nerfing it's counter simultaneously isn't a good idea. Have you seen pythons get wrecked? Swarms wreck them, forges 3 shot them, and swarms are mainly used on tanks I think. Yes i have. Pythons are pretty easy to take down, so maybe it's best if we just buff their HP to make them less squishy. AmarrAssault, GalAssault, GalLogi, CalScout GalLogi to the end
CommanderBolt Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1404	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:03:00 - [15] - Quote You are slightly nerfing swarms and are buffing the Python? Ok that's pretty awesome but totally undeeded to be quite honest.~ The only problem I see currently is the small rails on an Incubus but they are working as their intended AV role. I just feel they might be working a little too well...... The shield buff in this regard will be nice I guess. Of course CCP Rattati I dont always agree with you but I DO really appreciate the fact you are trying things mate. Thankyou. -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 2234	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:15:00 - [16] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Have you seen pythons get wrecked? Swarms wreck them, forges 3 shot them, and swarms are mainly used on tanks I think. It's rather difficult though to actually land three shots with a FG considering with a nitro you can zoom away enough that you only have to tank the second shot, but alright. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1425	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:24:00 - [17] - Quote I don't see the logic behind nerfing swarms. Dropships are so incredibly hard to kill with swarms its not even worth bringing them out. The only AV weapon that is slightly useful to dropships are proto assault forge guns with three complex damage mods; and you only kill the dropship if you empty your entire clip, reload and get another shot or two off. Any dropship pilot worth his salt will be long gone before the third shot connects. Not to mention dropship pilots easily outrun swarms that have already been fired. The lock-on distance is so close the bird is nearly on top of you and all they have to do is climb straight up to avoid another barrage. We should not be "forcing" people to utilize a commando in order to utilize swarms My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Gabriel Ceja Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 24	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:24:00 - [18] - Quote This is cool and all I think these changes are good but since all swarms will be firing four missiles only have you guys thought about a way to differentiate the assault swarms because the dual targeting function of it is pretty useless as it is and will be even more useless splitting off two missiles out of four despite the damage increase. One solution I have in mind for the assault swarm launcher is to keep its dual targeting however instead of splitting the missiles to the target it should fire a full volley to both targets and this would not be OP because both targets have to be within the reticle to be locked on to. "Throw on the flux capacitor." activates fuel injector "WOOOOOO!!!"
Killar-12 The Exemplars Top Men. 3022	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:26:00 - [19] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I'm not speaking from my own experience but rather an Assault dropship pilot I know, and according to him Pythons are already better than Incubi. The extra HP they gain isn't worth the mobility loss at all, couple that with how the only AV that can reliably hit a dropship is anti armor and that Pythons get the best turret, and Incubi are already quite bad. The only good part is that they don't get knocked around as much from swarms but that's being reduced. This would seal the deal. Would also like to ask, is it really smart to reduce swarm damage AND increase dropship HP? In addition to reducing the amount of knockback they have? To me it just seems like an unnecessary buff, Assault dropships already kick major arse, and only need a slight ISK cost reduction. A good dropship pilot cannot be taken down 1v1. Edit: The Assault Dropship pilot is DUST Fiend. I agree Nerf Pythons, flies away in Incubus DUST fiend can keep doing whatever, Incubuses tank is better than pythons' gank I am an Idiot, and so are you!
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2615	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:30:00 - [20] - Quote Can their be a slight color difference between tiers so that a pilot recognizes when PRO swarms are coming and not militia, we could previously tell by missile count but now you will not be able to. Tanker/Logi

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11243	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:48:00 - [21] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I'm not speaking from my own experience but rather an Assault dropship pilot I know, and according to him Pythons are already better than Incubi. The extra HP they gain isn't worth the mobility loss at all, couple that with how the only AV that can reliably hit a dropship is anti armor and that Pythons get the best turret, and Incubi are already quite bad. The only good part is that they don't get knocked around as much from swarms but that's being reduced. This would seal the deal. Would also like to ask, is it really smart to reduce swarm damage AND increase dropship HP? In addition to reducing the amount of knockback they have? To me it just seems like an unnecessary buff, Assault dropships already kick major arse, and only need a slight ISK cost reduction. A good dropship pilot cannot be taken down 1v1. Edit: The Assault Dropship pilot is DUST Fiend. I agree Nerf Pythons, flies away in Incubus DUST fiend can keep doing whatever, Incubuses tank is better than pythons' gank When it comes to dropships, speed tank is best tank. No amount of tank you can get will allow you to survive for more than a few volleys. So the Python's higher speed and agility makes it ideal. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
iKILLu osborne WarRavens Final Resolution. 111	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:51:00 - [22] - Quote lowering isk cost of ads buffing ehp of ads *nerfing swarms Yep time to take forge from lvl.4 to lvl.5 and start speccing profiency "uh guys" "i got to go back to the mcc those 10 ads's made me crap my dropsuit"
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 115	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:57:00 - [23] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I'm not speaking from my own experience but rather an Assault dropship pilot I know, and according to him Pythons are already better than Incubi. The extra HP they gain isn't worth the mobility loss at all, couple that with how the only AV that can reliably hit a dropship is anti armor and that Pythons get the best turret, and Incubi are already quite bad. The only good part is that they don't get knocked around as much from swarms but that's being reduced. This would seal the deal. Would also like to ask, is it really smart to reduce swarm damage AND increase dropship HP? In addition to reducing the amount of knockback they have? To me it just seems like an unnecessary buff, Assault dropships already kick major arse, and only need a slight ISK cost reduction. A good dropship pilot cannot be taken down 1v1. Edit: The Assault Dropship pilot is DUST Fiend. Every incubus has afterburnurs, doesn't get all wierd when hovering, looks better, and has constant regen... I told that to Fiend, apparently Pythons are still faster than an Incubus with an afterbrurner. Well that is just a damm lie Whoever is giving you this info is bullshitting you. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 115	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:59:00 - [24] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Have you seen pythons get wrecked? Swarms wreck them, forges 3 shot them, and swarms are mainly used on tanks I think. It's rather difficult though to actually land three shots with a FG considering with a nitro you can zoom away enough that you only have to tank the second shot, but alright. Not everyone uses afterburner on a python, which makes it weaker than a armor lav and weak as a shield lav, and I 3 shot pythons easy because I'm good. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1483	Posted - 2014.07.24 19:59:00 - [25] - Quote Swarms are and will continue to pretty much useless untill one thing is sorted. Speed. I've no problem with Dropships outmaneuvering a missile or using cover to protect themselves. That requires some skill from the pilots. But outrunning them in a straight line race.... that is so moronicly stupid and pretty much is against all laws of aerodynamics and flight. And is really a pretty big immersion breaker. Make them be able to tank a missile salvo by all means, make them more nimble to dodge 'em but out run them? No way. If the Dropships really did have a greater power to weight ratio than a bleeding missile then the acceleration G-Forces would be spreading the pilots like a chunky salsa dip all over the back wall of the cockpit!!!!!! Sort that out and most swarm users will be happy. I know I will. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 115	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:00:00 - [26] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Killar-12 wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I'm not speaking from my own experience but rather an Assault dropship pilot I know, and according to him Pythons are already better than Incubi. The extra HP they gain isn't worth the mobility loss at all, couple that with how the only AV that can reliably hit a dropship is anti armor and that Pythons get the best turret, and Incubi are already quite bad. The only good part is that they don't get knocked around as much from swarms but that's being reduced. This would seal the deal. Would also like to ask, is it really smart to reduce swarm damage AND increase dropship HP? In addition to reducing the amount of knockback they have? To me it just seems like an unnecessary buff, Assault dropships already kick major arse, and only need a slight ISK cost reduction. A good dropship pilot cannot be taken down 1v1. Edit: The Assault Dropship pilot is DUST Fiend. I agree Nerf Pythons, flies away in Incubus DUST fiend can keep doing whatever, Incubuses tank is better than pythons' gank When it comes to dropships, speed tank is best tank. No amount of tank you can get will allow you to survive for more than a few volleys. So the Python's higher speed and agility makes it ideal. Uh huh, while every incubus fitting has afterburner and it's more stable. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Dustbunny Durrr ReD or DeaD 246	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:05:00 - [27] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Can their be a slight color difference between tiers so that a pilot recognizes when PRO swarms are coming and not militia, we could previously tell by missile count but now you will not be able to. That's actually a very good point. Different color missile trails?
Dustbunny Durrr ReD or DeaD 246	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:08:00 - [28] - Quote lowering ADS cost, + AV nerf (slight swarms) + DS HP buff. It seems like you have too many moving parts at once. Any one of these change, may be fine, but combining them all at once seems like it COULD lead to an overpowered FOTM. Just my $.02
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1484	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:14:00 - [29] - Quote Dustbunny Durrr wrote: lowering ADS cost, + AV nerf (slight swarms) + DS HP buff. It seems like you have too many moving parts at once. Any one of these change, may be fine, but combining them all at once seems like it COULD lead to an overpowered FOTM. Just my $.02 I agree. There are too many variables being altered in one go here and I've been around long enough to know that doing that has never, ever worked out well in Dust. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 47	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:18:00 - [30] - Quote WHAT ? Reduce the swarm proto ? Give a buff to ADS ? For the moment, python and incubus reflect two kind of fight style : Python : - powerful DPS against both infantry and vehicles (with skills point) BUT as a counterpart, it can't camp a position too long to provide cover and support. Except if the pilot want to be destroyed Incubus : - powerful DPS against vehicles only and master of dogfight, - flying an incubus with a missile launcher can provide support and cover for infantry over the time, but don't have a good DPS. With the modifications, the main problem I see is that the python would be allow a greater time to hover over a position and fire at will. Making the less harmfull incubus loose it's position as heavy close range support. Which leave us with a problem. For a player that is full skilled in incubus. Will it be completely unable to do support work except by killing vehicles (which is it's main speciality). While a python would be able to fulfill both tasks ? I have begin to play with python, and a shield buff is clearly needed, but in order to give the incubus the possibility to support infantry, would it be possible for the rail turret to become like the plasma cannon ? By that, I mean heavy damages for the main hit, but with a SLIGHT area damages ; not enough to kill infantry without a precise shot, but effective enough to quickly destroy equipments ? As a counterpart for those area damages, a nerf of the main damages would be needed so it would not become more effective against vehicles than it is already. Another thing, why are proto swarm being inferior than they are already ? Except if you intend to increase their range to at least 200m, why do you nerf the damages when a forge gun deal more damages AND have twice the range of the current swarm. Yeah, I know, the swarm have an auto aim yes, but remember that the missiles often hit buildings, and because dropships with afterburners can outrange missiles where a forge gun projectile can't be outspeed (except in case of bad aim). Incubus pilot

Jadd Hatchen Kinda New here 633	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:20:00 - [31] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Swarms are and will continue to pretty much useless untill one thing is sorted. Speed. I've no problem with Dropships outmaneuvering a missile or using cover to protect themselves. That requires some skill from the pilots. But outrunning them in a straight line race.... that is so moronicly stupid and pretty much is against all laws of aerodynamics and flight. And is really a pretty big immersion breaker. Make them be able to tank a missile salvo by all means, make them more nimble to dodge 'em but out run them? No way. If the Dropships really did have a greater power to weight ratio than a bleeding missile then the acceleration G-Forces would be spreading the pilots like a chunky salsa dip all over the back wall of the cockpit!!!!!! Sort that out and most swarm users will be happy. I know I will. Yes this is the real issue with using swarms... they shouldn't be as slow as they are when used against air vehicles. I still believe in creating two types of swarm launchers: Anti-Air - Very fast missiles with lower damage Anti-Ground - Slow missiles (like now) with higher damage Both types would be able to lock onto and shoot at both air and ground vehicles, but the anti-air versions wouldn't do much damage versus tanks due to their lower volley damage and the anti-ground version wouldn't hit a dropship in most cases because the dropship could outrun them. Stop trying to make one tool to fit them all and that sucks. Make the right tool for the right job.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8715	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:22:00 - [32] - Quote We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships. If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) and the anti-dropship (faster missiles) would also be on the table if these changes improve things. Weapons for dropships are a bit of a different topic, though we are making changes to the small blaster. Details for that will come in another topic, so I would ask you put your discussion there or in a new thread. (And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! ) CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1484	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:25:00 - [33] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships. If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) would also be on the table if these changes improve things. (And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! ) Off topic but an EM AV grenade would be VERY welcome. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6416	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:26:00 - [34] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships. If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) would also be on the table if these changes improve things. (And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! ) Off topic but an EM AV grenade would be VERY welcome. So a homing flux? Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1484	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:28:00 - [35] - Quote Basically yes.. CPM1 Candidate CEO of DUST University
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3685	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:29:00 - [36] - Quote If you are allready at it could you please find a usable function for assault swarm launchers? Beeing aible to lock 2 targets is not really helpfull. Maybe faster lock on or better range or you could make it so that it is the only swarm launcher that has unguided missiles. Basically a shotgun av which works only up close vs vehicles but not against infantry. That could make it a viable option for sneaky scouts that get up close to a tank and quickly unleash 3 swarm volleys. Like in the old days where you could dumbfire it.
wripple WarRavens Final Resolution. 193	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:31:00 - [37] - Quote So any word on finally fixing the ADS bugs, ie. zoom glitch, illogical collision damage (Python insta-death at 10m/s and Incubus invincibility when ramming), or perhaps some stability and rendering fixes so that when my system lags from trying to render everything I don't loose half my thrust.
JIMvc2 UNREAL WARRIORS 188	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:33:00 - [38] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Cheydinhal Guard wrote: I don't know about this. Maybe you should choose one first and see how it works out. Either nerf Swarms and keep the Hp the same, or leave swarms untouched and buff Dropship HP. As we learned in 1.7, buffing something and nerfing it's counter simultaneously isn't a good idea. Have you seen pythons get wrecked? Swarms wreck them, forges 3 shot them, and swarms are mainly used on tanks I think. My python can take more than 3 shots. :p MAG Raven vet 7 times. Favorite weapon F90 and Highest Kills 78 and 23 deaths.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8717	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:35:00 - [39] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: If you are allready at it could you please find a usable function for assault swarm launchers? Beeing aible to lock 2 targets is not really helpfull. Maybe faster lock on or better range or you could make it so that it is the only swarm launcher that has unguided missiles. Basically a shotgun av which works only up close vs vehicles but not against infantry. That could make it a viable option for sneaky scouts that get up close to a tank and quickly unleash 3 swarm volleys. Like in the old days where you could dumbfire it. We're holding off making changes to the Assault Swarm Launcher while we wait to see what the changes we have lined up bring. Fixing them so that they're actually useful is on our to do list. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Constable Jones 3dge of D4rkness 26	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:36:00 - [40] - Quote I am utterly sick of the suggestion that Swarm Launchers are getting nerfed. I've been running Caldari Commando since day one, never run anything more than an ADV Swarm, but have run them on 95% of my clones. Never felt they were underpowered. (Sure, they may not kill dropships, but they regularly net me 150+ WP from damage in an encounter, whilst driving them off and keeping my teammates alive.) And now they are BETTER. Assuming these changes stick, I'll be able to drop my Damage Modifier and be causing more damage than I am currently, which means even faster shield regen for my all-comers suit. Anyway, back on-topic of responding to the OP suggestions: Great ideas, Logibro! (See, some of us can tell you aren't Rattati :-P) Normalising the Swarm damage around the ADV tier is a definite first step- the progression is far too high currently, but balancing STD and ADV to be closer to current PRO would render Swarms overpowered due to the sheer mass of low-level attacks able to be pulled out by players barely skilled into Swarm Launchers. As for the extra spare capacity, THANK YOU OH SO MUCH! Simple, yet effective. No direct difference to the Vehicle/Swarm kill ratio, but it allows me a chance at pushing off multiple DSs before having to drop a hive or go in search of ammo.

S-PANZA Expert Intervention Caldari State 6	Posted - 2014.07.24 20:37:00 - [41] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: I don't see the logic behind nerfing swarms. Dropships are so incredibly hard to kill with swarms its not even worth bringing them out. The only AV weapon that is slightly useful to dropships are proto assault forge guns with three complex damage mods; and you only kill the dropship if you empty your entire clip, reload and get another shot or two off. Any dropship pilot worth his salt will be long gone before the third shot connects. Not to mention dropship pilots easily outrun swarms that have already been fired. The lock-on distance is so close the bird is nearly on top of you and all they have to do is climb straight up to avoid another barrage. We should not be "forcing" people to utilize a commando in order to utilize swarms A decent pilot will bolt / duck behind structures or both after the first hit. Its when more than 1 AVer focusing on the same dropship that AV becomes a problem for ADS. The only easy AV kills are when ADS hover and take whatever comes without evading. Flying an ADS shouldnt be worry free. I agree that if changes are coming , its best not to nerf one and buff the other in one shot. Do the swarm changes and see what the effect will be. Reduce ADS prices if need be.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers 248	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:00:00 - [42] - Quote the changes look good, more likely to get killed by standard or advanced swarms now i'm guessing incubus will still be able to ram a python and fly away sustaining little damage itself. closer ehp values willl really help
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11247	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:25:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships. If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) and the anti-dropship (faster missiles) would also be on the table if these changes improve things. Weapons for dropships are a bit of a different topic, though we are making changes to the small blaster. Details for that will come in another topic, so I would ask you put your discussion there or in a new thread. (And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! ) WHY are you reducing the HP gap? Their mobility is hugely better, and they have a killing machine for a weapon. Best anti infantry weapon by far. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
MINA Longstrike 1055	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:33:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships. If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) and the anti-dropship (faster missiles) would also be on the table if these changes improve things. Weapons for dropships are a bit of a different topic, though we are making changes to the small blaster. Details for that will come in another topic, so I would ask you put your discussion there or in a new thread. (And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! ) Swarms are already insanely fast rattati. Half the reason that people complain about dropships is because swarms are so fast that most pilots feel the only consistently viable option to get away from swarms or forges is an afterburner, it makes the need for an afterburner a completely ubiquitous thing - you must have one to either accelerate out of swarm range or break your relatively linear momentum vs forges or you will be throwing your isk investment away. There are a few changes that need to be made here (and I imagine I'm going to get some flames for this) but swarms need to be slowed down slightly: Yes I know this sounds completely crazy, but I pose the question "How many MLT / STD dropships have you seen escape from swarms without an afterburner? It's not easy to do without an afterburner even on an assault dropship", this first change makes the 'need' for an afterburner less ubiquitous, to compensate maybe swarms can have higher lock ranges or travel distances. The second change is that afterburner cooldown times need to be increased to about 40 seconds for basic, 35 for advanced and 30 seconds at proto, this means that while using your afterburner to break linear travel vs forges or accelerate from swarms is still a valid choice it becomes an actual choice you can engage this module to get away, but it will be on cooldown for a while - you can fit one with less cooldown but it will take more fitting space. The third thing is some serious changes need to be made to ground vehicle propulsion modules, in far too many cases I see tanks hit that button and just drive back and forth as fast as possible to dodge tons of fire, or simply drive away as fast as possible, these things shouldn't affect momentum so much. tl;dr Swarms need to be slowed down so that fitting an afterburner isn't a complete necessity, afterburners need increased cooldowns. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Dustbunny Durrr ReD or DeaD 248	Posted - 2014.07.24 21:39:00 - [45] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships. If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) and the anti-dropship (faster missiles) would also be on the table if these changes improve things. Weapons for dropships are a bit of a different topic, though we are making changes to the small blaster. Details for that will come in another topic, so I would ask you put your discussion there or in a new thread. (And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! ) Swarms are already insanely fast rattati. Half the reason that people complain about dropships is because swarms are so fast that most pilots feel the only consistently viable option to get away from swarms or forges is an afterburner, it makes the need for an afterburner a completely ubiquitous thing - you must have one to either accelerate out of swarm range or break your relatively linear momentum vs forges or you will be throwing your isk investment away. There are a few changes that need to be made here (and I imagine I'm going to get some flames for this) but swarms need to be slowed down slightly: Yes I know this sounds completely crazy, but I pose the question "How many MLT / STD dropships have you seen escape from swarms without an afterburner? It's not easy to do without an afterburner even on an assault dropship", this first change makes the 'need' for an afterburner less ubiquitous, to compensate maybe swarms can have higher lock ranges or travel distances. The second change is that afterburner cooldown times need to be increased to about 40 seconds for basic, 35 for advanced and 30 seconds at proto, this means that while using your afterburner to break linear travel vs forges or accelerate from swarms is still a valid choice it becomes an actual choice you can engage this module to get away, but it will be on cooldown for a while - you can fit one with less cooldown but it will take more fitting space. The third thing is some serious changes need to be made to ground vehicle propulsion modules, in far too many cases I see tanks hit that button and just drive back and forth as fast as possible to dodge tons of fire, or simply drive away as fast as possible, these things shouldn't affect momentum so much. tl;dr Swarms need to be slowed down so that fitting an afterburner isn't a complete necessity, afterburners need increased cooldowns. I agree that the afterburner recharges too quickly, and there is no real 'choice' when using it. Currently, the answer is "of course you use it, it will be available again soon". As for tank propulsion mods, I have no problem with them gaining forward momentum, their max momentum backwards should be limited however. Therefore, you would have tactics when positioning a tank, or tactics of flanking a tank.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3271	Posted - 2014.07.24 22:19:00 - [46] - Quote For whatever its worth ... Unless I am in a squad of friends, I will not run my swarm fits. To do so is the equivalent of throwing away Isk. I run proto swarms (+ damage amps) on a Gallente Scout. My cheapest AV fit runs roughly 120k Isk. My odds of survival after volleying swarms is far lower than those of whatever vehicle I'm swarming. I'm an undampened Scout with a Toxin SMG, and the enemy knows my position. I am 100% in favor of not being able to solo an ADS. My first volley gets their attention; by the time I've launched my third, they're typically well out of my range. Even when I'm paired with a partner Swarmer, an ADS has good odds of getting away so long as the pilot responds when first hit. I am a deterrent. I am not a threat. - Swarmer, Proficiency 5 Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3685	Posted - 2014.07.24 22:33:00 - [47] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships. If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) and the anti-dropship (faster missiles) would also be on the table if these changes improve things. Weapons for dropships are a bit of a different topic, though we are making changes to the small blaster. Details for that will come in another topic, so I would ask you put your discussion there or in a new thread. (And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! ) Swarms are already insanely fast rattati. Half the reason that people complain about dropships is because swarms are so fast that most pilots feel the only consistently viable option to get away from swarms or forges is an afterburner, it makes the need for an afterburner a completely ubiquitous thing - you must have one to either accelerate out of swarm range or break your relatively linear momentum vs forges or you will be throwing your isk investment away. There are a few changes that need to be made here (and I imagine I'm going to get some flames for this) but swarms need to be slowed down slightly: Yes I know this sounds completely crazy, but I pose the question "How many MLT / STD dropships have you seen escape from swarms without an afterburner? It's not easy to do without an afterburner even on an assault dropship", this first change makes the 'need' for an afterburner less ubiquitous, to compensate maybe swarms can have higher lock ranges or travel distances. The second change is that afterburner cooldown times need to be increased to about 40 seconds for basic, 35 for advanced and 30 seconds at proto, this means that while using your afterburner to break linear travel vs forges or accelerate from swarms is still a valid choice it becomes an actual choice you can engage this module to get away, but it will be on cooldown for a while - you can fit one with less cooldown but it will take more fitting space. The third thing is some serious changes need to be made to ground vehicle propulsion modules, in far too many cases I see tanks hit that button and just drive back and forth as fast as possible to dodge tons of fire, or simply drive away as fast as possible, these things shouldn't affect momentum so much. tl;dr Swarms need to be slowed down so that fitting an afterburner isn't a complete necessity, afterburners need increased cooldowns. You are so going to burn in hell for that.
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2000	Posted - 2014.07.24 22:38:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, Iwe're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes I'm all for buffing the ADS's a bit in order to make them more survivable against all AV (since all AV is a bit OP v an ADS atm). However.... swarms v tanks and LAV's are in a really good place right now on normal suits. Pulling the damage back might make the commando the ONLY suit worth running swarms on, and no-one wants that. Is there no way to reduce the damage bonus the Commando gets to swarms without messing up it's other weapons? As a Minmando user, I would rather my entire explosive bonus be dropped to 1%-1.5% rather than making the swarms unusable on my non-commando suits. Additionally, is there any way we can see all commando's getting a bonus to all light AV weapons? Might make the skill easier to adjust if the swarms stop being counted as explosive and started counting as AV, would also lend a lot more utility to the other commando suits.. Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 115	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:06:00 - [49] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Edit: would it be possible to instead add a second high to the Incubus and an additional high to the python with a suitable increase to pg/cpu? This would allow pilots an extra slot for their afterburner without having to sacrifice their survivability for it, or allow them to tank some additional eHP. http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/147/f/3/we__ll_bang__okay__by_emeraldyuna123-d5190ya.jpg Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Will Driver Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 186	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:13:00 - [50] - Quote I think re-tiering swarm damage is a good thing, but ultimately swarms are so under powered it will make little difference. Buffs to dropships at the same time are totally unnecessary and uncalled for, not to mention the idea of making them dirt cheap. Did you learn nothing from militia tanks, do you consider that a success? Nobody else does. Nerf to Minmando is uncalled for. Even with Minmando, swarms are mostly just for show. What difference does the extra ammo make, you can't stay alive in one (ineffective) swarm suit long enough to make use of it. Are all the other Commando suits losing their weapon bonuses? Derpship514. Good luck with that. GÇ£Creativity is knowing how to hide your sourcesGÇ¥ GÇò Albert Einstein

Ralden Caster KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 76	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:14:00 - [51] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: You are slightly nerfing swarms and are buffing the Python? Ok that's pretty awesome but totally undeeded to be quite honest.~ The only problem I see currently is the small rails on an Incubus but they are working as their intended AV role. I just feel they might be working a little too well...... The shield buff in this regard will be nice I guess. Of course CCP Rattati I dont always agree with you but I DO really appreciate the fact you are trying things mate. Thankyou. HE'S LOGIBRO. GIVE THE MAN SOME CREDIT. "AHAHAHAHAA, I TELEPORTED BREAD!!!" -Soldier 2014

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8723	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:22:00 - [52] - Quote Will Driver wrote: I think re-tiering swarm damage is a good thing, but ultimately swarms are so under powered it will make little difference. Buffs to dropships at the same time are totally unnecessary and uncalled for, not to mention the idea of making them dirt cheap. Did you learn nothing from militia tanks, do you consider that a success? Nobody else does. Nerf to Minmando is uncalled for. Even with Minmando, swarms are mostly just for show. What difference does the extra ammo make, you can't stay alive in one (ineffective) swarm suit long enough to make use of it. Are all the other Commando suits losing their weapon bonuses? Derpship514. Good luck with that. There's no change to the Commando suit bonuses as part of this change. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1173	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:40:00 - [53] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: OP POST All sounds good! People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3685	Posted - 2014.07.24 23:59:00 - [54] - Quote Swarms do work and can take out vehicles of all sorts. I for example use them on a gallente scout to avoid infantry and start AV'ing when im out sight of hostiles.
CHANCEtheChAn 0uter.Heaven 614	Posted - 2014.07.25 00:08:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes My main problem with this is that the Basic/Adv swarm damage may have been buffed a little too well (Not saying they didnt need a buff to begin with) Basically you can run a Basic swarm launcher with lv5 proficiency and do almost as well as a proto swarm launcher with 0 efficiency, basically making it so that you can run the much cheaper basic variant, and with high skills, can perform very well anti-AV with minimum ISK loss Also I fear for the loss of Armor tanks and ADS in pubs, as they are already a dying breed due to swarm launcher damage Now even more so with increased damage at lower tiers I think armor reps are gonna have to go back up to near Pre-Alpha/Bravo levels for Armor vehicles to be effective again after this... Closed Beta Vet/ Chromosome and Corp battle Vet/ Uprising 1.0-Now PC vet Ex D.F. Director Current Inner.Hell Director
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2008	Posted - 2014.07.25 00:42:00 - [56] - Quote CHANCEtheChAn wrote: I think armor reps are gonna have to go back up to near Pre-Alpha/Bravo levels for Armor vehicles to be effective again after this... I can see possibly plates getting a buff, but reps? A wyrikomi prof. 5 can still JUST keep up with a triple rep stacked maddy's regen as it is, we don't need to break the rep cycle balance again. Cross Atu for CPM1 Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1173	Posted - 2014.07.25 00:45:00 - [57] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships. If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) and the anti-dropship (faster missiles) would also be on the table if these changes improve things. Weapons for dropships are a bit of a different topic, though we are making changes to the small blaster. Details for that will come in another topic, so I would ask you put your discussion there or in a new thread. (And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! ) Swarms are already insanely fast rattati. Half the reason that people complain about dropships is because swarms are so fast that most pilots feel the only consistently viable option to get away from swarms or forges is an afterburner, it makes the need for an afterburner a completely ubiquitous thing - you must have one to either accelerate out of swarm range or break your relatively linear momentum vs forges or you will be throwing your isk investment away. There are a few changes that need to be made here (and I imagine I'm going to get some flames for this) but swarms need to be slowed down slightly: Yes I know this sounds completely crazy, but I pose the question "How many MLT / STD dropships have you seen escape from swarms without an afterburner? It's not easy to do without an afterburner even on an assault dropship", this first change makes the 'need' for an afterburner less ubiquitous, to compensate maybe swarms can have higher lock ranges or travel distances. The second change is that afterburner cooldown times need to be increased to about 40 seconds for basic, 35 for advanced and 30 seconds at proto, this means that while using your afterburner to break linear travel vs forges or accelerate from swarms is still a valid choice it becomes an actual choice you can engage this module to get away, but it will be on cooldown for a while - you can fit one with less cooldown but it will take more fitting space. The third thing is some serious changes need to be made to ground vehicle propulsion modules, in far too many cases I see tanks hit that button and just drive back and forth as fast as possible to dodge tons of fire, or simply drive away as fast as possible, these things shouldn't affect momentum so much. tl;dr Swarms need to be slowed down so that fitting an afterburner isn't a complete necessity, afterburners need increased cooldowns. -1 for this post. We need to have the swarms fast AND clumsy - so that with skillful maneuvering they can overshoot and therefore maybe miss. Also, currently swarms can be evaded by terrain and buildings. Only bad thing is that sometimes swarms still bend around corners... People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Lightning35 Delta514 48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE 48	Posted - 2014.07.25 00:46:00 - [58] - Quote YASSSSSS!!! SPAWN.KILL.DIE.RESPAWN.
Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 3688	Posted - 2014.07.25 00:54:00 - [59] - Quote I like the new changes(SL user since Crome with prof ) The std will actually be usable and the advanced looks pretty good, it's a shame the Proto had to lose some dmg but if it's for balance I can understand. Now can we make assault swarms less useless? Maybe give them 10 missiles per volley with lower dmg? Or just lower the dmg and give them a longer range then current SLs. Also, why buff base health for Assault dropships? It seems...unneeded, that's just my opinion. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 118	Posted - 2014.07.25 01:28:00 - [60] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: I like the new changes(SL user since Crome with prof ) The std will actually be usable and the advanced looks pretty good, it's a shame the Proto had to lose some dmg but if it's for balance I can understand. Now can we make assault swarms less useless? Maybe give them 10 missiles per volley with lower dmg? Or just lower the dmg and give them a longer range then current SLs. Also, why buff base health for Assault dropships? It seems...unneeded, that's just my opinion. Ever use a python? Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.

Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 3688	Posted - 2014.07.25 01:46:00 - [61] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I like the new changes(SL user since Crome with prof ) The std will actually be usable and the advanced looks pretty good, it's a shame the Proto had to lose some dmg but if it's for balance I can understand. Now can we make assault swarms less useless? Maybe give them 10 missiles per volley with lower dmg? Or just lower the dmg and give them a longer range then current SLs. Also, why buff base health for Assault dropships? It seems...unneeded, that's just my opinion. Ever use a python? I did ask for the reason for the buff. I have yet to take a python out by myself with swarms, and I can do it if I land 3-4 with my Proto assault FG. If I team up with someone they go down quick. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 118	Posted - 2014.07.25 01:56:00 - [62] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I like the new changes(SL user since Crome with prof ) The std will actually be usable and the advanced looks pretty good, it's a shame the Proto had to lose some dmg but if it's for balance I can understand. Now can we make assault swarms less useless? Maybe give them 10 missiles per volley with lower dmg? Or just lower the dmg and give them a longer range then current SLs. Also, why buff base health for Assault dropships? It seems...unneeded, that's just my opinion. Ever use a python? I did ask for the reason for the buff. I have yet to take a python out by myself with swarms, and I can do it if I land 3-4 with my Proto assault FG. If I team up with someone they go down quick. Well, I 3 shot pythons all day, forges. And your swarms shouldn't be super effective at killing a shuekd vehicle. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1764	Posted - 2014.07.25 02:03:00 - [63] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships. If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) and the anti-dropship (faster missiles) would also be on the table if these changes improve things. Weapons for dropships are a bit of a different topic, though we are making changes to the small blaster. Details for that will come in another topic, so I would ask you put your discussion there or in a new thread. (And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! ) Hey CCP Ratatouille, could you also consider a EM type Large/Small missile turret?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3277	Posted - 2014.07.25 02:04:00 - [64] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: And your swarms shouldn't be super effective at killing a ~~shuekd~~ shield-based vehicle. I can't speak for Commando, but mine already are not. Pretty much wasting my time if/when I swarm a Gunnlogi or Python. I'll do it for a 'bit to keep the vehicle from farming friends, but I don't expect to seriously threaten it unless somehow gets "stuck" or bumps into a building. Again, if I'm not squadded with buddies I'm not even going to waste my time trying. Hunting vehicles with swarms a sure-fire way to lose half a million Isk and come in dead last at the end of a match. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Tesfa Alem Until thee End 175	Posted - 2014.07.25 02:09:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes I think its great bonus to the Caldari ships 600 base shield is what they really really need to make up for losing a high slot to be anywhere as usefull as gallente ships. 100 more base armor for my incubus is okay, i'll take it but not overwhelmed by it. the swarm buff is... well tricky? I will no longer be able to ID what kind of swarms are heading for me and when your trying o judge wthere your fighting wyrokamis or not its very important iin terms of gauging whether or not to engage, or run. When i'm flying all I'll be able to do is run, and my tank will sit in the garage until they become more viable vs infantry. Right now I'll risk an engagement with basic and adv, but steer clear of proto. Now i probably wont do either, but at least my tank can utilize terrain and cover. My ADS is going to have to stick to Anti Air, and hope a bunch of swarmers aren't on a tower somewhere. Basic swarms is 1,040 damage per salvo, ADV is 1,144 proto is 1,248 Against armor it will be Basic 1,180 ADV 1258.4 and Proto1,372 As a primarily incubus pilot i don't like the looks of it at all. Since my first warning that there is swarms is the first hit, by the time which the second volley is in the air, well, lets just say i don't like the idea of autolocking forge rounds chasing me all over the sky. The thing is i would'nt mind at all if we had some sort of module to acitivate to give us a fighting chance rather than afterburn and hope they( missiles) explode. Sure we wont get flares or EWAR vs swarmse but a merc can dream right? I'll be sure to make good use of my minmatar commando though. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. CPM1 Candidate
Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 3688	Posted - 2014.07.25 02:25:00 - [66] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I like the new changes(SL user since Crome with prof ) The std will actually be usable and the advanced looks pretty good, it's a shame the Proto had to lose some dmg but if it's for balance I can understand. Now can we make assault swarms less useless? Maybe give them 10 missiles per volley with lower dmg? Or just lower the dmg and give them a longer range then current SLs. Also, why buff base health for Assault dropships? It seems...unneeded, that's just my opinion. Ever use a python? I did ask for the reason for the buff. I have yet to take a python out by myself with swarms, and I can do it if I land 3-4 with my Proto assault FG. If I team up with someone they go down quick. Well, I 3 shot pythons all day, forges. And your swarms shouldn't be super effective at killing a shuekd vehicle. 3 shotting a python is impressive. I've only got the 1 dmg mod and most smart pilots run away after 1 or 2nd shot. As for swarms, like I said, never took down a python or incubus with them. I've landed 3 rounds, reloaded, then watched them fly away before the 4th shot ever lands. I'm not sure why your so angry here...I'm just stating my thoughts and personal play history. It's pretty much just hear say tbh. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Senator Snipe Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 176	Posted - 2014.07.25 02:32:00 - [67] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Very good, and finally, my python will actually not get instagibbed or get 3 shotted by forges... That's what you think. my skills beg to differ :) My forge skills are unmatchable. It's not that i lose battles, its just that sometimes i don't feel like winning them.
MINA Longstrike 1055	Posted - 2014.07.25 03:33:00 - [68] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships. If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) and the anti-dropship (faster missiles) would also be on the table if these changes improve things. Weapons for dropships are a bit of a different topic, though we are making changes to the small blaster. Details for that will come in another topic, so I would ask you put your discussion there or in a new thread. (And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! ) Swarms are already insanely fast rattati. Half the reason that people complain about dropships is because swarms are so fast that most pilots feel the only consistently viable option to get away from swarms or forges is an afterburner, it makes the need for an afterburner a completely ubiquitous thing - you must have one to either accelerate out of swarm range or break your relatively linear momentum vs forges or you will be throwing your isk investment away. There are a few changes that need to be made here (and I imagine I'm going to get some flames for this) but swarms need to be slowed down slightly: Yes I know this sounds completely crazy, but I pose the question "How many MLT / STD dropships have you seen escape from swarms without an afterburner? It's not easy to do without an afterburner even on an assault dropship", this first change makes the 'need' for an afterburner less ubiquitous, to compensate maybe swarms can have higher lock ranges or travel distances. The second change is that afterburner cooldown times need to be increased to about 40 seconds for basic, 35 for advanced and 30 seconds at proto, this means that while using your afterburner to break linear travel vs forges or accelerate from swarms is still a valid choice it becomes an actual choice you can engage this module to get away, but it will be on cooldown for a while - you can fit one with less cooldown but it will take more fitting space. The third thing is some serious changes need to be made to ground vehicle propulsion modules, in far too many cases I see tanks hit that button and just drive back and forth as fast as possible to dodge tons of fire, or simply drive away as fast as possible, these things shouldn't affect momentum so much. tl;dr Swarms need to be slowed down so that fitting an afterburner isn't a complete necessity, afterburners need increased cooldowns. -1 for this post. We need to have the swarms fast AND clumsy - so that with skillful maneuvering they can overshoot and therefore maybe miss. Also, currently swarms can be evaded by terrain and buildings. Only bad thing is that sometimes swarms still bend around corners... Enjoy every dropship ever having an afterburner then. I didn't make the post to be popular, I made it to accurately illustrate the current problems. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
FabryX10 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 120	Posted - 2014.07.25 04:58:00 - [69] - Quote Is it a joke Logibro? Swarms will get a nerf again... @CCP Rattati: How to fix Assault's shields
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10913	Posted - 2014.07.25 05:11:00 - [70] - Quote Why are Swarm Launchers being nerfed, while Dropships being buffed at the same time? Unless of course, they're being nerfed in preparation of a Damage Modifier buff? And nothing of value was lost that day... -HAND

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3289	Posted - 2014.07.25 05:30:00 - [71] - Quote Atiim wrote: Why are Swarm Launchers being nerfed, while Dropships being buffed at the same time? Unless of course, they're being nerfed in preparation of a Damage Modifier buff? This. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10916	Posted - 2014.07.25 05:52:00 - [72] - Quote CHANCEtheChAn wrote: Basically you can run a Basic swarm launcher with lv5 proficiency and do almost as well as a proto swarm launcher with 0 efficiency, basically making it so that you can run the much cheaper basic variant, and with high skills, can perform very well anti-AV with minimum ISK loss This is already possible with every other weapon in DUST, and even possible for Small Turrets given you train the Assault Dropship Operation to Level V. This is a non-issue. CHANCEtheChAn wrote: I think armor reps are gonna have to go back up to near Pre-Alpha/Bravo levels for Armor vehicles to be effective again after this... The previous Armor Repairers made them immune to all Infantry weapons than the IAFG, and even then if the pilot evaded even a single shot the pilot would be unscathed. This was broken, and should not return. Not to mention that it made Shield Tanks worthless, as it's main strength was supposed to it's regen capabilities, but those were being out-classed by the 'Triple Rep' Madrugar And nothing of value was lost that day... -HAND
Fremder V1 Armed And Aimless 18	Posted - 2014.07.25 07:45:00 - [73] - Quote Might be too much too soon, Logibro. A price reduction alone will increase the commonness of ADS and thus their available data, and (at this point even more important) should broaden the perspective of some of the pilots... Balance is achieved when both sides die regularly.
Jace Silencerwolf Outcasts For Hire 3	Posted - 2014.07.25 08:37:00 - [74] - Quote LOL WOW basic gets a buff and adv get a slight buff but proto get nerfed LOL OK ccp logi - first tell me why the proto swarms are getting nerfed? second not everyone uses the Minnie commando for swarms. third REALLY?! what are you guys thinking a nerfed to proto swarms and a buff to dropships hp (are you serioius?!) it takes 2 swarms adv or better to drop an assault dropships armor or shield 7-9 times out of 10 the assault dropship gets away.
Macchi00 LORD-BRITISH 99	Posted - 2014.07.25 11:03:00 - [75] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes Python is OP in this adjustments. Shield over the 3000 to withstand three times the direct hit of forgegun. Time is too python is enough to wipe out the infantry this. I love ForgeGun. I made ForgeGun montage in YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIhuGxfbjSQ
RECON BY FIRE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 407	Posted - 2014.07.25 11:41:00 - [76] - Quote So youre nerfing swarm damage again!? Wtf is wrong with you people! Furthermore, it looks like this whole change is nothing but a huge buff to dropships. Are they not already invulnerable enough to swarms as is!? Stuff....?
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 306	Posted - 2014.07.25 12:01:00 - [77] - Quote Buffing standard and advanced Swarms = Good. They were way under-powered. Nerfing proto swarms because of Minmandos = Why? If a weapon available to every class in the game becomes overpowered due to the bonus on one suit, the problem is with the suit bonus, not the weapon. Keep proto swarm damage up where it is, and if minmando AV players get too overpowered, knock the bonus down a peg instead of nerfing every other conceivable fitting. Especially if you are going to buff dropship HP at the same time..
Demandred Moores Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 10	Posted - 2014.07.25 13:46:00 - [78] - Quote Swarms are area denial for a dropship, and the best way to keep one at bay with a forge friend. Try using team work and see how fast a python goes down. It's like you scrubs think one person should be equal to one vehicle. Your suit and wepon can't do everything this is abteam based game.
RECON BY FIRE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 409	Posted - 2014.07.25 15:01:00 - [79] - Quote Demandred Moores wrote: Swarms are area denial for a dropship, and the best way to keep one at bay with a forge friend. Try using team work and see how fast a python goes down. It's like you scrubs think one person should be equal to one vehicle. Your suit and wepon can't do everything this is abteam based game. Its like you scrubs think one vehicle should be equal to an entire team. Stuff....?
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3695	Posted - 2014.07.25 15:14:00 - [80] - Quote The 600HP buff wont help the python to not get 3 shoted by a proto assault forge. Espacially if the guy is using a CK.0 sentinel with tripple damage mods. The swarm buff however is going to spice things up for alot of pilots. Lets say for a example there are 2 swarm launcher guys. One is your average blueberry scrub with militia swarms and the other guy is using proto swarms. You have no way to identify which 1 is the bigger thread cause both swarms shot the same amount of missiles. Its even better cause the low end launchers getting buffed means that pilots will panic when they see the swarms coming for them. Its psychological warfare of the finest like with forgeguns. No pilot in their mind is going to figure out if the guy on the ground is using a militia forge or a proto. Both hurt and can screw you over and you have no way to tell what the hell just hit you. And in 1vs1 fights vs a incubus that 600 shields allows it to take less then 2 additional small rail hits.

Demandred Moores Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 10	Posted - 2014.07.25 15:24:00 - [81] - Quote RECON BY FIRE wrote: Demandred Moores wrote: Swarms are area denial for a dropship, and the best way to keep one at bay with a forge friend. Try using team work and see how fast a python goes down. It's like you scrubs think one person should be equal to one vehicle. Your suit and wepon can't do everything this is abteam based game. Its like you scrubs think one vehicle should be equal to an entire team. Have you flown in a pc vs a top five corp? A python is not op I'm sorry you have such a hard time.
headbust SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 99	Posted - 2014.07.25 15:34:00 - [82] - Quote i always fly the incubus because i use the rails ao im an anti-vehicle dropship never have i lost to a python so im not sure how the incubus is weak as many of u stated. now i have seen a triple stacked python with missles which probably would've done it but that was before my flying days lol. but wat im saying is if u r going to put missles on ur incubus and fly low to take out infantry u r going to get shot down easier by av. if u use a python u r more likely to survive getting outta there quicker and ur shields recharge will save u from straggling missles from swarms if u cant out run them.using a rail incubus once u have practice all u gotta worry about is a forger really because i can still out run missles in my incubus but the first 2 volleys do usually hit. a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
Demandred Moores Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 10	Posted - 2014.07.25 15:35:00 - [83] - Quote In adition a incubis will still destroy a python, I don't see why you think swarms should be a great way to take out a shielded vehicle.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3961	Posted - 2014.07.25 16:24:00 - [84] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. This is the key point in my mind. The mechanics change of varying missile damage rather than missile number between tiers will make Swarm Launchers easier to balance, but we need base line data on the Swarm Launcher after this change is in place before we can have an educated discussion of what needs to be done to balance Swarms. For instance, what effect will buffing the Militia Swarm Launcher on the Starter AV suit have on the overall AV balance? I think Swarm Launcher balance needs to be one of the focuses in Hot Fix Delta, so we can discuss how to tweak it after the mechanic has been changed. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Greiv Rabbah KiLo. 13	Posted - 2014.07.25 16:56:00 - [85] - Quote i came to read on swarms, but i feel compelled to speak instead on dropships and such... regarding afterburners, which became quite a bit of chatter here, and whether to fit them (lol) i feel theres a big problem and it ISNT swarms... sure afterburners evade swarms and thats FINE as long as there is a viable option for tackling. if tackling dropships is not possible then afterburners will continue to make dropships invulnerable and will remain essentially a non-customizable slot. we need to be able to slow down an ads as it tries to jet off. stasis webifiers run by enemy dropships/lavs(if caught close enough to tack on) can slow down evading ships as long as theyre caught within the beam alternatively, scramming isnt completely absurd to consider here... i mean you could hit them with a pulse that knocks the AB offline for 15 seconds or something.... if you take any tackling option from eve and apply it here, that little stretch of "run away so i can hoard moar isk for evars" becomes a little less of a clown act for the AV and the pilot actually has to work for his pay for a change. just a thought.... MTACs would also make dropships easier to kill... yall know that... i know that yall know that... tldr with some logistics vehicles and some logistical options and yadda yadda ads vs swarms could and should be a non issue
S-PANZA Expert Intervention Caldari State 14	Posted - 2014.07.25 16:59:00 - [86] - Quote Lets be honest , the only real swarms that pose a threat now are proto swarms with prof. I cant begin to tell you how many times Ive witnessed ADS playing with infantry like a cat plays with a mouse. ADS should fear swarms , doesnt mean swarms should down an ADS with one volley but ADS shouldnt be able to hover worry free with swarms coming at them. Depending on the build , it takes 3-4 volleys from a proto swarm now to down an ADS and for that to happen the ADS has to stay in locking range for the duration, meaning the pilot either made a mistake or decided to ignore the incoming swarms. For those of you that think that an ADS should survive 3 shots from a Ck.O Sent with 3 comp dam mods and a pro forge gun, are being a bit unreasonable. A forger getting 3 consecutive hits is no easy task and after the first hit the pilot should think run. I think the swarrn changes are good except the nerfing proto swarm damage . Again you should consider changing one side first so you can see the effect . ADS dont need a buff at this time, they need an ISK price reduction and changes in collision damage done by building and other friendly vehicles.
Assault Swarm Launcher Caldari State 218	Posted - 2014.07.25 17:28:00 - [87] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: And your swarms shouldn't be super effective at killing a shuekd vehicle. Assuming the Pilot plays defensively and uses a Hardener, they aren't effective by any means. "Chances are I'm going to kill you or replace you with something new..." -CCP Logibro
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10928	Posted - 2014.07.25 18:07:00 - [88] - Quote I fail to see how Swarm Launchers were overpowered, even with the Matari Commando. Since Proficiency Skills don't effect Anti-Shield Damage, the highest amount of damage against shields your volleys could reach is 1277HP. And to do that, you would need to Stack 2 Complex Damage Modifiers, which in turn removes any and all defenses your Dropsuit has, as your 'tank' came from your dual High-Slots. Assuming a Pilot plays defensively and runs Shield Hardener (like they should), that would lower the Volley to 776HP, making the TTK against Shielded Vehicles: Python = 4 Volleys (7.5s) Myron = 4 Volleys (7.5s) Gunnlogi = 6 Volleys (9.6s) This is already extremely generous given the amount of time vehicles have to evade a Swarm Launcher's lock range. With that in mind, I don't see why Swarm Launchers needed a nerf, or why Dropships needed a buff. Let alone both at the same time. And nothing of value was lost that day... -HAND
Derpty Derp It's All Gone Derp 224	Posted - 2014.07.25 18:09:00 - [89] - Quote Well that's nice... But will the 4 missiles actually render now? I guess at least when they do we'll see less of a fps drop... Hopefully.
Peregrinuus 5	Posted - 2014.07.25 18:46:00 - [90] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I'm not speaking from my own experience but rather an Assault dropship pilot I know, and according to him Pythons are already better than Incubi. The extra HP they gain isn't worth the mobility loss at all, couple that with how the only AV that can reliably hit a dropship is anti armor and that Pythons get the best turret, and Incubi are already quite bad. The only good part is that they don't get knocked around as much from swarms but that's being reduced. Dude, the Incubus is very deadly with its railgun. So what, that missiles are better for anti-infantry? Railguns absolutely wreck vehicles. An Incubus can easily wreck my Python before I can even have time to react. The Incubus has a much easier time wrecking vehicles than the Python. 4 railgun shots at 430-something damage within a second is deadly for any vehicle. All I'm seeing is QQ. "My Incubus can't kill infantry as well as the Python, even though the Incubus is deadly against vehicles. QQ I want to be able to wreck everything!" Hi.

Peregrinuus 5	Posted - 2014.07.25 18:53:00 - [91] - Quote Atiim wrote: I fail to see how Swarm Launchers were overpowered, even with the Matari Commando. Since Proficiency Skills don't effect Anti-Shield Damage, the highest amount of damage against shields your volleys could reach is 1277HP. And to do that, you would need to Stack 2 Complex Damage Modifiers, which in turn removes any and all defenses your Dropsuit has, as your 'tank' came from your dual High-Slots. Assuming a Pilot plays defensively and runs Shield Hardener (like they should), that would lower the Volley to 776HP, making the TTK against Shielded Vehicles: Python = 4 Volleys (7.5s) Myron = 4 Volleys (7.5s) Gunnlogi = 6 Volleys (9.6s) This is already extremely generous given the amount of time vehicles have to evade a Swarm Launcher's lock range. With that in mind, I don't see why Swarm Launchers needed a nerf, or why Dropships needed a buff. Let alone both at the same time. Quit your yapping and whining! Swarms are anti-armor, not anti-shield. They should be worse at killing shield vehicles than armor. It's like asking for the LR or ScR to wreck armor as well as it wrecks shield. And also, SL got buffed at standard and advanced levels. What more do you want? Kill everything in sight without reloading? I'm already having a good time using standard swarms and AV grenades against Sicas and Somas (and I can even pose a threat to Madrugars that are fitted properly). I don't expect to be able to take out Gunnlogis and Madrugars though because I only use standard, though I still try my best to pull some +75 damage points. Hi.
headbust SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 100	Posted - 2014.07.25 19:14:00 - [92] - Quote Peregrinuus wrote: Atiim wrote: I fail to see how Swarm Launchers were overpowered, even with the Matari Commando. Since Proficiency Skills don't effect Anti-Shield Damage, the highest amount of damage against shields your volleys could reach is 1277HP. And to do that, you would need to Stack 2 Complex Damage Modifiers, which in turn removes any and all defenses your Dropsuit has, as your 'tank' came from your dual High-Slots. Assuming a Pilot plays defensively and runs Shield Hardener (like they should), that would lower the Volley to 776HP, making the TTK against Shielded Vehicles: Python = 4 Volleys (7.5s) Myron = 4 Volleys (7.5s) Gunnlogi = 6 Volleys (9.6s) This is already extremely generous given the amount of time vehicles have to evade a Swarm Launcher's lock range. With that in mind, I don't see why Swarm Launchers needed a nerf, or why Dropships needed a buff. Let alone both at the same time. Quit your yapping and whining! Swarms are anti-armor, not anti-shield. They should be worse at killing shield vehicles than armor. It's like asking for the LR or ScR to wreck armor as well as it wrecks shield. And also, SL got buffed at standard and advanced levels. What more do you want? Kill everything in sight without reloading? I'm already having a good time using standard swarms and AV grenades against Sicas and Somas (and I can even pose a threat to Madrugars that are fitted properly). I don't expect to be able to take out Gunnlogis and Madrugars though because I only use standard, though I still try my best to pull some +75 damage points. y dont u quit using an alt an hop on ur main. if u would read there is no whining there it was just facts and him stating the obvious u dont nerf one thing then buff the thing it was against this is the problem we have always had . usually one gets over done. if u wanna reply to me then get on ur main coward. a scout = once you turn your back on me you'll never be able to look back
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3136	Posted - 2014.07.25 19:29:00 - [93] - Quote Looks good to me, the nerf at proto isn't much so I'm not gonna complain, especially when STD and ADV get much better. With a bit of luck this will encourage more people to actually use them when vehicles are on the field. That said I don't believe the Dropship buffs are necessary. 600 EHP for Shield Dropships is a lot, especially when they already outperform Armour on Speed Manoeuvrability Instantaneous Reps Resistance Passive Reps Pair this with the ability to put a light armour repper and people are gonna start complainging about them. I would suggest, just to start with you give Dropships a fitting power boost. Allow ADS's to be able to fit 2 'Heavy' Modules in their main tank. I think your giving them too much, in my opinion as a ADS pilot myself. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 709	Posted - 2014.07.25 20:55:00 - [94] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: I would suggest, just to start with you give Dropships a fitting power boost. Allow ADS's to be able to fit 2 'Heavy' Modules in their main tank. I think your giving them too much, in my opinion as a ADS pilot myself. Be very careful about CPU/PG bonuses. When you buff ehp you know exactly what effects this will have. When you buff CPU/PG you may accidentally make a completely new fitting possible that is much more powerful than before. Literally seconds ago I pondered a Myron with three shield hardeners and thought it good that it wasn't possible. So always double and triple check your CPU/PG buffs to vehicles.
taxi bastard jihad taxi co. 161	Posted - 2014.07.25 21:09:00 - [95] - Quote really not too happy. drop ships with a AB only need to face any direction and activate to evade swarms - atm swarms can be classed as area denial weapons for ADS unless the ADS piliot is a ******. fire off 3 swarm salvo's and if the piliot hits AB after the first they will only take damage from one. if all 3 hit you still have reload, lock and travel time of the next one one or 2 shots to press the AB. assuming ofcourse you have not decided to leave the short lock on range of the swarm launcher. with proto swarms i find that 95% of my ADS kills are due to the pilot just be too eager to kill me and taking too many risks. 1 missile splash shot and i am dead so i can see why they take the risk. - if the changes are to stay, i.e. decreased DPS, same swarm speed and ADS EHP buff and price reduction you need to nerf the AB recharge time and speed by a reasonable amount. i.e. speed 40% and recharge rate should take 3 times as long.
Peregrinuus 5	Posted - 2014.07.25 21:14:00 - [96] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Looks good to me, the nerf at proto isn't much so I'm not gonna complain, especially when STD and ADV get much better. With a bit of luck this will encourage more people to actually use them when vehicles are on the field. That said I don't believe the Dropship buffs are necessary. 600 EHP for Shield Dropships is a lot, especially when they already outperform Armour on Speed Manoeuvrability Instantaneous Reps Resistance Passive Reps Pair this with the ability to put a light armour repper and people are gonna start complainging about them. I would suggest, just to start with you give Dropships a fitting power boost. Allow ADS's to be able to fit 2 'Heavy' Modules in their main tank. I think your giving them too much, in my opinion as a ADS pilot myself. Caldari dropships do not outperform Gallente dropships. Gallente dropships can stack on a lot more EHP and have constant reps, albeit them being less than the shield recharge rate of Caldari dropships (this is intended). I think that the 600 HP buff to Caldari dropships is perfectly fine. They get swatted out of the sky too easily otherwise. I also don't see how you're getting the ability for Caldari dropships to put on light reps. Caldari dropships need to fit fitting enhancement modules to get the best performance out of their high slots. Armor on Caldari vehicles is not as useful as the shield on Gallente vehicles. As far as resistance goes, Caldari dropships are no different than Gallente dropships. Just because your main forms of AV are explosive and kinetic doesn't make it a vehicle problem. You should instead ask for a complete set of AV weaponry. Also, need I point you to the plasma cannon, which has a bonus toward shield, if you're complaining about resistance that much? Stop trying to make the ScR shred armor as easily as it does shield. Hi.
RECON BY FIRE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 412	Posted - 2014.07.25 22:15:00 - [97] - Quote Demandred Moores wrote: RECON BY FIRE wrote: Demandred Moores wrote: Swarms are area denial for a dropship, and the best way to keep one at bay with a forge friend. Try using team work and see how fast a python goes down. It's like you scrubs think one person should be equal to one vehicle. Your suit and wepon can't do everything this is abteam based game. Its like you scrubs think one vehicle should be equal to an entire team. Have you flown in a pc vs a top five corp? A python is not op I'm sorry you have such a hard time. When youre facing a top 5 corp, nothing is OP. If you and your corp cant send slayers to suppress the AV that's not my problem. It is neither the problem of 70% or more of the playerbase that dont participate in PC. The simple fact is that PC is likely the least played game mode, and being that this game is developmentally dead, the focus should be on the enjoyment of the majority of the playerbase and what they play most. Which would be the standard game modes where a dropship can annihilate the entire team without impunity. A proto swarm should at least be respected or feared, which it is currently neither by dropships. I have consistently shot at shield and armor dropships and watched them just sit there taking salvo after salvo of missiles and not caring, not even moving a bit. Until that forge gun comes and smacks them in the face, then they just fly straight up and come back after the slayers come and clear all the AV out. Stuff....?
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3137	Posted - 2014.07.25 22:59:00 - [98] - Quote Peregrinuus wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Looks good to me, the nerf at proto isn't much so I'm not gonna complain, especially when STD and ADV get much better. With a bit of luck this will encourage more people to actually use them when vehicles are on the field. That said I don't believe the Dropship buffs are necessary. 600 EHP for Shield Dropships is a lot, especially when they already outperform Armour on Speed Manoeuvrability Instantaneous Reps Resistance Passive Reps Pair this with the ability to put a light armour repper and people are gonna start complainging about them. I would suggest, just to start with you give Dropships a fitting power boost. Allow ADS's to be able to fit 2 'Heavy' Modules in their main tank. I think your giving them too much, in my opinion as a ADS pilot myself. Caldari dropships do not outperform Gallente dropships. Gallente dropships can stack on a lot more EHP and have constant reps, albeit them being less than the shield recharge rate of Caldari dropships (this is intended). I think that the 600 HP buff to Caldari dropships is perfectly fine. They get swatted out of the sky too easily otherwise. The python most certainly outclasses the Incubus in a number of important aspects, at the risk of imposing on the Incubus 'stand and deliver' territory. I think 600 is too much, especially when you consider a resistance mod drops swarm damage to just shy of 750. The Incubus however is getting a menial increase that will simply ensure that ADV swarms are no more of threat than before. I also don't see how you're getting the ability for Caldari dropships to put on light reps. Caldari dropships need to fit fitting enhancement modules to get the best performance out of their high slots. Armor on Caldari vehicles is not as useful as the shield on Gallente vehicles. *Fair enough I shall redact that there statement, using an Armour Repper does indeed hamper your shields.* As far as resistance goes, Caldari dropships are no different than Gallente dropships. Just because your main forms of AV are explosive and kinetic doesn't make it a vehicle problem. You should instead ask for a complete set of AV weaponry. Also, need I point you to the plasma cannon, which has a bonus toward shield, if you're complaining about resistance that much? Stop trying to make the ScR shred armor as easily as it does shield. I'm not trying to, HOWEVER, current AV DOES favour armour CONSIDERABLY. We know for a fact shield variants aren't going to be on the Table until probably hotfix Echo. The point to consider is that in the CURRENT climate making the dropship with a 10-20% resistance against the AV that can actually be used on it might not be a good idea, at least not right now. *Further more your active hardener gives a much greater resistance, which may present a problem when the EHP between the two dropships becomes smaller still.* They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3137	Posted - 2014.07.25 23:03:00 - [99] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I would suggest, just to start with you give Dropships a fitting power boost. Allow ADS's to be able to fit 2 'Heavy' Modules in their main tank. I think your giving them too much, in my opinion as a ADS pilot myself. Be very careful about CPU/PG bonuses. When you buff ehp you know exactly what effects this will have. When you buff CPU/PG you may accidentally make a completely new fitting possible that is much more powerful than before. Literally seconds ago I pondered a Myron with three shield hardeners and thought it good that it wasn't possible. So always double and triple check your CPU/PG buffs to vehicles. While this is true, I'm only talking a slight buff, proabaly not much more than 5%-10% enough to upgrade one more Mod from a light mod to a heavy. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1044	Posted - 2014.07.26 02:00:00 - [100] - Quote boba's fetta wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I'm not speaking from my own experience but rather an Assault dropship pilot I know, and according to him Pythons are already better than Incubi. The extra HP they gain isn't worth the mobility loss at all, couple that with how the only AV that can reliably hit a dropship is anti armor and that Pythons get the best turret, and Incubi are already quite bad. The only good part is that they don't get knocked around as much from swarms but that's being reduced. This would seal the deal. Would also like to ask, is it really smart to reduce swarm damage AND increase dropship HP? In addition to reducing the amount of knockback they have? To me it just seems like an unnecessary buff, Assault dropships already kick major arse, and only need a slight ISK cost reduction. A good dropship pilot cannot be taken down 1v1. Edit: The Assault Dropship pilot is DUST Fiend. Every incubus has afterburnurs, doesn't get all wierd when hovering, looks better, and has constant regen... swarm user here. incubus are way easier to take down. No dip smartbutt. You're using a armour damaging weapon on an armor tanking vehicle.

medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 879	Posted - 2014.07.26 10:00:00 - [101] - Quote I'm not sure why my python needs an EHP buff, but lower tier swarms definitely need a damage buff. Just killed a mlt swarm launcher user head on in my python. The damage his/her mlt swarms did was pitiful. [ :( ] Medium frame EHP is not medium
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3145	Posted - 2014.07.26 10:51:00 - [102] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: I don't see the logic behind nerfing swarms. Dropships are so incredibly hard to kill with swarms its not even worth bringing them out. The only AV weapon that is slightly useful to dropships are proto assault forge guns with three complex damage mods; and you only kill the dropship if you empty your entire clip, reload and get another shot or two off. Any dropship pilot worth his salt will be long gone before the third shot connects. Not to mention dropship pilots easily outrun swarms that have already been fired. The lock-on distance is so close the bird is nearly on top of you and all they have to do is climb straight up to avoid another barrage. We should not be "forcing" people to utilize a commando in order to utilize swarms The difference between now and what will be is 97 EHP at proto level. It's really not that bad especially when STD and ADV are getting buffed. You'll barely notice the difference on PRO, but I'm sure as hell gonna have to bug out faster even against MLT swarms. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 655	Posted - 2014.07.26 13:00:00 - [103] - Quote since the changes its never really been so much the damage of swarms but the lock range. as soon as you hit a tank or dropship then just hit the throttle and go up/back and before the next lock they'r eout of range. some corp mates and myself came up with a couple of options to change things either with specialization skills or a hislot module or introducing lv4 upwards swarms designed to combat dropships/LAVs with a longer lock range but lower damage. or introduce a swarm range amp so for swarm v tanks you go short range high damage with damage mods and for lav/ds use lock range mods for further lock but lower dmaage to compensate. or, specialization skills. 10% lock range per level. make it a 4x skill training so its fo rus guys who want to specialize. also perhaps ones which increase swarm missile flight time and swarm missile velocity by 10% per level again. this allows the swarms to keep up with and catch faster moving vehicles and chase them for a little longer and its enough of an SP sink to not be too op but those of us who like chasing vehicles can have a bit of somehtign to help out a bit Rolling with the punches
ladwar HEARTS OF PHOENIX 2016	Posted - 2014.07.26 14:03:00 - [104] - Quote finally!!!!! Level 2 Forum Warrior, bitter vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth doing reviews in free time, want 1?
Dalmont Legrand RUST 415 RUST415 490	Posted - 2014.07.26 15:40:00 - [105] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes So why not increasing speed of missiles? Impossible to get assault dropships unless you tackle with grenades as well, as far as I know I am the only one throwing grenades at assault drops that are way to confident about their ehp and skills and fly above your head, and then i might kill it unless it turns on reps and escapes the area and missiles following it are useless because their speed and range of flight are small. Now Kane Spero suggested that increasing aim distance from 175 to 200 would be ok since you can shoot more before first pack of missiles gets to drop, but as first gets there, pilot runs away as far as he can (never forget reps) from the area and other missiles will just selfdestruct running out of range. Increasing missile range is not an option as well since you can hide behind a building or a rock and there is end of story. You need at least two proto swarmers with 3 dmg mods each to get one dropship before he knows it is coming and as all good pilots know never stay in same place or you die(well you don't because jumping out time you have-more about that lower). So three conditions must be seen: 1. Aim range: Won't help 2. Missile flight range: Won't be effective considering obstacles 3. Missile speed: fast movement in 175 radius, pilots should be aware as well and not just have zero deaths. 175 meters is a ok aim, swarmers working in area of 175^2pi will cover active zone where dropship must fly to play, but speed missiles is crucial in this area, pilot should know as enters he must pay attention or will be shot and has seconds to none to flee or to eject. He can hide behind something in this area so increasing flight range won't help it, and even with speed he can simply hide from other launches. So all I ask is speed high enough to hit drops so they wouldn't escape missiles that were shot just by flying away. Of course increasing all three will make it new OP. You can pick two of them to make a great deal, and in that case I would choose slight speed increase of missiles and substantial range of flight. This will enable pilots to be more accurate than ever entering action zone. Tanks and jeeps are as well get affected but for them hiding is easier then for dropships and having greater speeds they easily can hide fast before I aim at them for the next shot. It can get long to explain why but I know that you should know what I am speaking about. Tanks and jeeps overall killing rate won't increase drmatically for swarmers, at least less crying about world of tanks in dust and taxi jeeps that still exist. What about falling dropship? When i hit tank or jeep it explodes and kills everyone, when i shoot dropship it falls on fire and then explodes and everyone jumps out before happy and alive, hard to draw air wreck? The best is yet to come No longer candidate
Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 655	Posted - 2014.07.26 17:22:00 - [106] - Quote Dalmont Legrand wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes So why not increasing speed of missiles? Impossible to get assault dropships unless you tackle with grenades as well, as far as I know I am the only one throwing grenades at assault drops that are way to confident about their ehp and skills and fly above your head, and then i might kill it unless it turns on reps and escapes the area and missiles following it are useless because their speed and range of flight are small. Now Kane Spero suggested that increasing aim distance from 175 to 200 would be ok since you can shoot more before first pack of missiles gets to drop, but as first gets there, pilot runs away as far as he can (never forget reps) from the area and other missiles will just selfdestruct running out of range. Increasing missile range is not an option as well since you can hide behind a building or a rock and there is end of story. You need at least two proto swarmers with 3 dmg mods each to get one dropship before he knows it is coming and as all good pilots know never stay in same place or you die(well you don't because jumping out time you have-more about that lower). So three conditions must be seen: 1. Aim range: Won't help 2. Missile flight range: Won't be effective considering obstacles 3. Missile speed: fast movement in 175 radius, pilots should be aware as well and not just have zero deaths. 175 meters is a ok aim, swarmers working in area of 175^2pi will cover active zone where dropship must fly to play, but speed missiles is crucial in this area, pilot should know as enters he must pay attention or will be shot and has seconds to none to flee or to eject. He can hide behind something in this area so increasing flight range won't help it, and even with speed he can simply hide from other launches. So all I ask is speed high enough to hit drops so they wouldn't escape missiles that were shot just by flying away. Of course increasing all three will make it new OP. You can pick two of them to make a great deal, and in that case I would choose slight speed increase of missiles and substantial range of flight. This will enable pilots to be more accurate than ever entering action zone. Tanks and jeeps are as well get affected but for them hiding is easier then for dropships and having greater speeds they easily can hide fast before I aim at them for the next shot. It can get long to explain why but I know that you should know what I am speaking about. Tanks and jeeps overall killing rate won't increase drmatically for swarmers, at least less crying about world of tanks in dust and taxi jeeps that still exist. What about falling dropship? When i hit tank or jeep it explodes and kills everyone, when i shoot dropship it falls on fire and then explodes and everyone jumps out before happy and alive, hard to draw air wreck? New stats will fit perfectly into combination of to buffs to speed and range of missiles without creating OP against any vehicles. missile velocity is deffinitly something. even if you do get a lock and fire a volley off the DS just blasts out of range before a second lock and outruns the swarms. i mean yeah you want a good pilot to be able to out manouver a swarm with skill but its far far too easy to do so at the moment. Rolling with the punches
dogmanpig black market bank 136	Posted - 2014.07.26 20:15:00 - [107] - Quote so whats going to happen to my two other missiles? do i still get that animation? because its about the looks You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way. Level 11 2/10 Forum alt. "Its worth half a penny and a reach around"
Greiv Rabbah KiLo. 14	Posted - 2014.07.26 21:08:00 - [108] - Quote seriously interdiction modules could work in the same way as armor reppers with a negative bonus to vehicle speed to debuff afterburners while in range. also please please logibro dont let vehicle subtypes go out the window. my calisto fit is still waiting to become valid again. but really... i think interdiction would be a better alternative to messing with av weapons more
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1182	Posted - 2014.07.26 22:59:00 - [109] - Quote Fremder V1 wrote: Might be too much too soon, Logibro. A price reduction alone will increase the commonness of ADS and thus their available data, and (at this point even more important) should broaden the perspective of some of the pilots... Balance is achieved when both sides die regularly. Price chang does nothing for battlefield balance. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1182	Posted - 2014.07.26 23:02:00 - [110] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: The 600HP buff wont help the python to not get 3 shoted by a proto assault forge. Espacially if the guy is using a CK.0 sentinel with tripple damage mods. The swarm buff however is going to spice things up for alot of pilots. Lets say for a example there are 2 swarm launcher guys. One is your average blueberry scrub with militia swarms and the other guy is using proto swarms. You have no way to identify which 1 is the bigger thread cause both swarms shot the same amount of missiles. Its even better cause the low end launchers getting buffed means that pilots will panic when they see the swarms coming for them. Its psychological warfare of the finest like with forgeguns. No pilot in their mind is going to figure out if the guy on the ground is using a militia forge or a proto. Both hurt and can screw you over and you have no way to tell what the hell just hit you. And in 1vs1 fights vs a incubus that 600 shields allows it to take less then 2 additional small rail hits. ^ A quality post. Read this. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11323	Posted - 2014.07.27 15:30:00 - [111] - Quote Just my 2 ISK: It is literally impossible to take down an ADS solo with swarms. If the pilot is worth his salt, he can "lol" at the swarms by outrunning them, and even as a deterant they can often fail since he will just attempt to kill me before I can get 4 volleys out. This is especially true with 3000 shields Pythons, who just omnomnom swarms for breakfast. Solo swarming an ADS is just asking to lose ISK, that's all it does. P.S: Prof IV, triple complex damage mods = My proto swarm fit Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11323	Posted - 2014.07.27 15:33:00 - [112] - Quote Peregrinuus wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I'm not speaking from my own experience but rather an Assault dropship pilot I know, and according to him Pythons are already better than Incubi. The extra HP they gain isn't worth the mobility loss at all, couple that with how the only AV that can reliably hit a dropship is anti armor and that Pythons get the best turret, and Incubi are already quite bad. The only good part is that they don't get knocked around as much from swarms but that's being reduced. Dude, the Incubus is very deadly with its railgun. So what, that missiles are better for anti-infantry? Railguns absolutely wreck vehicles. An Incubus can easily wreck my Python before I can even have time to react. The Incubus has a much easier time wrecking vehicles than the Python. 4 railgun shots at 430-something damage within a second is deadly for any vehicle. All I'm seeing is QQ. "My Incubus can't kill infantry as well as the Python, even though the Incubus is deadly against vehicles. QQ I want to be able to wreck everything!" Missiles are just as deadly against infantry as railguns are against vehicles. As a bonus, missiles can easily kill vehicles too. Not as effectively as railguns, but definitely a huge threat for any HAV. So basically, Pythons can kill everything, Incubi can kill vehicles and pythons. This is why in my opinion an Incubus should completely wreck a Python, unless Incubi get a decent anti infantry tool. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2595	Posted - 2014.07.27 15:39:00 - [113] - Quote If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging. I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced. Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class. I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage? Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11323	Posted - 2014.07.27 17:33:00 - [114] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging. I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced. Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class. I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage? For example how many militia swarm hits in Bravo how many in Charlie? I think it's fair to not give pilots that information. Pilots can survive longer and kill faster than the AV, so I think it's fair that only the AV person knows what he is engaging. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
S-PANZA Expert Intervention Caldari State 20	Posted - 2014.07.27 18:46:00 - [115] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging. I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced. Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class. I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage? For example how many militia swarm hits in Bravo how many in Charlie? Realistically an AVer can see an aircraft way before the aircraft sees him, and it should be that way. I agree that if your close enough to land on rooftop you should be able to see the redberry.. As you know thats a rendition problem,shouldnt be the reason for buffering something. If ADS doesnt anticipate an AVer being there, it may take a surprise first hit to identify what your dealing with. As it is now you can survive more than one hit and run. If the ADS spots infantry first, infantry wont survive the first hit and can only run if cover is nearby. When an ADS pilots sees swarms coming or takes a swarm hit, they should assume its a proto with prof . and take evasive action until proven otherwise. Its the prudent thing to do.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2595	Posted - 2014.07.27 18:47:00 - [116] - Quote For your fit then CatMerc how many vollys to kill a stationary Python with the best fit you can think of? In bravo and then compared to Charile? And do you think this is too high or too low? Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4912	Posted - 2014.07.27 20:51:00 - [117] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging. I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced. Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class. I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage? For example how many militia swarm hits in Bravo how many in Charlie? Sorry, but I do not agree at all with the informational disparity you claim, and that there is a dropship specific negative bias, Driving around in a HAV and getting forged does not tell you whether it's a militia or prototype forge. If you know your dropship well, you will know exactly what you are getting hit by, by the HP reduction of the hit. Also, engaging another Infantry tells you what about the weapon he has? I run away if I'm stripped down to armor in an engagement, or not. Same with being sniped, if he is going to kill me in the second shot, he probably has a Thales and I hide, if it's a militia sniper I shrug it off. He doesn't have differently colored bullet trails by tier nor is the color of his suit. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3319	Posted - 2014.07.27 21:13:00 - [118] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: For your fit then CatMerc how many vollys to kill a stationary Python with the best fit you can think of? In bravo and then compared to Charile? And do you think this is too high or too low? Proto Swarms + 2 cpm dmg amps + proficiency 5 vs Competently equipped python (position fixed in range) Alpha - Presumed Infinite Bravo - Presumed 6 or 7 Charlie - Presumed Greater than 6 or 7 Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11333	Posted - 2014.07.27 21:41:00 - [119] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: For your fit then CatMerc how many vollys to kill a stationary Python with the best fit you can think of? In bravo and then compared to Charile? And do you think this is too high or too low? Depends on the python. 4 volleys for most pythons, 5-6 on the heavily tanked pythons. I believe it's too high considering the ease at which they evade missiles. In charlie I believe it will rise to 5 and 7-8. I know you made that video talking about how swarms are difficult to evade, but I don't believe that's the case, considering I see pythons evade my volleys all the time. And I do mean ALL the time, the only time it hits is when I catch them by surprise (firing from behind), however once they realize I am a threat, not a single volley can hit. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3320	Posted - 2014.07.27 21:59:00 - [120] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: For your fit then CatMerc how many vollys to kill a stationary Python with the best fit you can think of? In bravo and then compared to Charile? And do you think this is too high or too low? Depends on the python. 4 volleys for most pythons, 5-6 on the heavily tanked pythons. Cmdr Marquess and I sync'd proto clips (his 3 volleys + my 3 volleys) into shield-hardened Python last week. Each volley connected; the bird got away with a sliver of armor remaining. This is the closest I've come since Bravo to downing a Python with swarms alone (hence my estimate of seven consecutive volleys). Your figure of four seems really low; are you assuming no HP modules / hardeners? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11334	Posted - 2014.07.27 22:01:00 - [121] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: For your fit then CatMerc how many vollys to kill a stationary Python with the best fit you can think of? In bravo and then compared to Charile? And do you think this is too high or too low? Depends on the python. 4 volleys for most pythons, 5-6 on the heavily tanked pythons. Cmdr Marquess and I sync'd proto clips (his 3 volleys + my 3 volleys) into shield-hardened Python last week. Each volley connected; the bird got away with a sliver of armor remaining as we reloaded. This is the closest I've come since Bravo to downing a Python with swarms alone (hence my estimate of seven swarm volleys). Four seems really low. Is the Commando bonus that strong? Are you assuming no HP modules / hardeners? I am not using the Commando, just Gal Assault gk.0. 4 is really the bare minimum with Pythons. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 307	Posted - 2014.07.27 22:05:00 - [122] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging. I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced. I'll piggyback on what Rattatti said. Infantry vs. infantry combat is far too fast paced to get accurate intel on exactly what you are squaring off against. Most people who die to shotguns don't see the shotgunner until they are on the ground. People killed by rifles in 1-on-1 engagements are often caught in the open with zero cover; the only option they have is to kill the other guy first. Most infantry combat has multiple shooters on each side, and the person who kills you is often not one who did the most damage to you. The only infantry situation that happens with any regularity where two player know exactly what their opponent is using, is HMG sentinel vs HMG sentinel.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11334	Posted - 2014.07.27 22:07:00 - [123] - Quote The only intel I can get in ground combat is usually: Frame - General Size Race - General Shape Weapon - Sounds and damage I cannot tell apart a Sentinel from a Heavy Basic, or Assault from a Basic Medium. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3322	Posted - 2014.07.27 22:27:00 - [124] - Quote Almost forgot! Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: ... And do you think this is too high or too low? I'm satisfied in the fact that dropships have consistently fled my swarms since Bravo. Their cycled missile launchers make short work of my 300-400 HP Scout. If they charged me when hit (rather than turned tail and fled) there's precisely zero chance I'd ever run swarms against them. That said, I don't pull out swarms thinking I'm going to accomplish anything. Every once in a while, I'll chase the bird away from buddies for an entire match and lose bunches of Isk to deaths by infantry, but it isn't much fun to end a match with zero kills and AFK-grade WP. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11335	Posted - 2014.07.27 22:56:00 - [125] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Almost forgot! Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: ... And do you think this is too high or too low? I'm satisfied in that dropships have consistently fled my swarms since Bravo. Their cycled missile launchers make short work of my 300-400 HP Scout. If they charged me when hit (rather than turned tail and fled) there'd be precisely zero chance I'd ever fire swarms at 'em. My 650eHP Assault dies in like, two missiles. The Python can sneeze in my general direction and kill me. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10986	Posted - 2014.07.27 23:05:00 - [126] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm skills, just the weapon damage? "Best Build" isn't really accurate as any pilot worth their salt should have multiple fittings for different engagements, so in my theory I'm going to use the best build which counters Swarm Launchers (or at least, what will be the best build). With this fitting: MLT Swarm Launcher: 6 Volleys (21.9s) PRO Swarm Launcher: 5 Volleys (15.3s) Considering how (without an Afterburner) a Python can evade a SL's lock range in 2.3s, in-order to actually kill a competent Python pilot with this fitting, you'd need: 10 Players with MLT Swarm Launchers 7 Players with PRO Swarm Launchers I understand that Swarms shouldn't be too effective against Shielded Vehicles, but does this seem a bit off (or broken) to anyone? And nothing of value was lost that day... -HAND
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3324	Posted - 2014.07.27 23:39:00 - [127] - Quote Atiim wrote: PRO Swarm Launcher: 5 Volleys (15.3s) 1. Does your math above account for the python's shield recovery during swarmer reload? 2. Looking at your fit ... would our "optimized v swarm" python be better off with a shield hardener? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10991	Posted - 2014.07.27 23:48:00 - [128] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Atiim wrote: PRO Swarm Launcher: 5 Volleys (15.3s) 1. Does your math above account for the python's shield recovery during swarmer reload? 2. Looking at your fit ... would our "optimized v swarm" python be better off with a shield hardener? No, I didn't factor in anything besides Damage and Reload Speed,Though you do raise an interesting question. I'll run some calculations and get back to you in a moment. And nothing of value was lost that day... -HAND
danie braz Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 57	Posted - 2014.07.28 00:09:00 - [129] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging. I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced. Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class. I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage? For example how many militia swarm hits in Bravo how many in Charlie? Sorry, but I do not agree at all with the informational disparity you claim, and that there is a dropship specific negative bias, Driving around in a HAV and getting forged does not tell you whether it's a militia or prototype forge. If you know your dropship well, you will know exactly what you are getting hit by, by the HP reduction of the hit. Also, engaging another Infantry tells you what about the weapon he has? I run away if I'm stripped down to armor in an engagement, or not. Same with being sniped, if he is going to kill me in the second shot, he probably has a Thales and I hide, if it's a militia sniper I shrug it off. He doesn't have differently colored bullet trails by tier nor is the color of his suit. My response: Active Scanners. You probably are proto everything. 3-4 volleys from a swarm should scare you away. DROPSHIPS or drop[off troops then move to another objetive]ship. When I get one/two shot from a FG I'm angry with myself. To much QQing. Fluoride uranium carbon potassium bismuth technetium helium sulfur germanium thulium Molybdenum neon yttrium
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 880	Posted - 2014.07.28 00:34:00 - [130] - Quote My python goes down in 3 volleys from a proto swarm launcher, 3-4 from advanced, and never from mlt; because mlt does negligible damage. Were are some of you getting numbers like 5-6 proto swarm volleys to down a python? Medium frame EHP is not medium

Tesfa Alem Until thee End 175	Posted - 2014.07.28 01:00:00 - [131] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging. I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced. Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class. I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage? For example how many militia swarm hits in Bravo how many in Charlie? Sorry, but I do not agree at all with the informational disparity you claim, and that there is a dropship specific negative bias, Driving around in a HAV and getting forged does not tell you whether it's a militia or prototype forge. If you know your dropship well, you will know exactly what you are getting hit by, by the HP reduction of the hit. Also, engaging another Infantry tells you what about the weapon he has? I run away if I'm stripped down to armor in an engagement, or not. Same with being sniped, if he is going to kill me in the second shot, he probably has a Thales and I hide, if it's a militia sniper I shrug it off. He doesn't have differently colored bullet trails by tier nor is the color of his suit. Engaging another enemy does tell you what weapon he has. Blue flashes means rail rifle, sharp bursts means combat rifle, one long smoke trail means sniper, and long yellow stream means scrambler and a long line is laser. Its very easy to tell what weapon you enemy is using and its generaly very easy to differentiate between the races, as well as the classes i.e the logis scouts assaults and the heavies. All the weapons are clearly distinguishable by thier own sounds and bullet trail. Easy to distguish asault variants from tactical variants and so on. Also infantry has cover to hide behind and when you aim directly at someone you can read his suit stats (race, class and wither std basic or proto) if you cant already identify by the colors of the suit. The difference is that on the ground, infantry render at the same rate. I see you and you see me. The closest example for infantry as to what pilots go through is the cloaked scout debate. People were pissed at being shot by an invisble scout. So CCP changed it so scouts supposedly cannot shoot while cloaked because it was an unfair advantage. With dropships your first warning that there is even a swarm launcher on the field firing at you is either getting hit, or watching missiles flying through the air one their way to hit you. (we engage between 50 - 80m max swarms still chase us for 400M). The swarmer themself is impossible to identify unless you watch him firing missiles at you, because infantry render for dropships at a much smaller range than dropships render for infantry. The only way to defend yourself is to run away or kill him. The only way to gauge how dangerous he is (as things stand now about half a million isk vs at best a 200 K proto suit) is by number of missiles. wyrokamis eat my dropship alive. Heck it tricky fighting just one ADV swarm launcher, 2 and i am out the area pronto. Since all forge guns are deadly i steer clear whenever i see a blue flash. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ Swarms from the ADS point of veiw, explains much better than i can. Its so hard for infantry only players to comprehend, because you dont have to fight autolocking sniper rounds and your only option is to sprint 400 meters away without cover. The most common thing i hear on comms with other pilots or said on comms when i'm flying : GTFO. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3324	Posted - 2014.07.28 01:32:00 - [132] - Quote medomai grey wrote: 1. My python goes down in 3 volleys from a proto swarm launcher, 3-4 from advanced ... 2. Where are some of you getting numbers like 5-6 proto swarm volleys to down a python? 1. Your Python is performing differently from most others; what do you run on it? 2. Firsthand, in-game observations (it'd serve no purpose to make this stuff up). Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3150	Posted - 2014.07.28 01:35:00 - [133] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: For whatever its worth ... Unless I am in a squad of friends, I will not run my swarm fits. To do so is the equivalent of throwing away Isk. I run proto swarms (+ damage amps) on a Gallente Scout. My cheapest AV fit runs roughly 120k Isk. My odds of survival after volleying swarms are far lower than those of whatever vehicle I'm swarming. I'm an undampened Scout with a Toxin SMG, and the enemy knows my position. I am 100% in favor of not being able to solo an ADS. My first volley gets their attention; by the time I've launched my third, they're typically well out of my range. Even when I'm paired with a partner Swarmer, an ADS has good odds of getting away so long as the pilot responds when first hit. I am a deterrent. I am not a threat. - Swarmer, Proficiency 5 You cannot be detterent unless you are a threat to whatever it is you are detering. It's the fact you are a threat that deters them. While I'm all for a slight dropship buff, I think the 600 extra to shields will be too much! They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
S-PANZA Expert Intervention Caldari State 23	Posted - 2014.07.28 01:40:00 - [134] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: [quote= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ Swarms from the ADS point of veiw, explains much better than i can. Its so hard for infantry only players to comprehend, because you dont have to fight autolocking sniper rounds and your only option is to sprint 400 meters away without cover. The most common thing i hear on comms with other pilots or said on comms when i'm flying : GTFO. The link only shows how swarms are a mere distraction to an ADS massacring infantry. DISCLAIMER: No ADS were killed by swarms in the making of that video.
Weznof Nalek Prima Gallicus 71	Posted - 2014.07.28 04:48:00 - [135] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes Already the swarm launcher is not very effective against dropships. The driver just has to use the afterburner to be quiet. If you advertise a nerve damage and a buff dropships you make this completely useless weapon. Increase the speed of missiles and their flight times and you can consider nerve damage and improve dropships.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3324	Posted - 2014.07.28 05:27:00 - [136] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: ... I am a deterrent. I am not a threat. - Swarmer, Proficiency 5 You cannot be detterent unless you are a threat to whatever it is you are detering. It's the fact you are a threat that deters them. A damn fine point, good sir. I concede. ~~I am a deterrent. I am not a threat.~~ I am sufficiently threatening to effectively deter, though highly unlikely to kill. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Shadow of War88 0uter.Heaven 424	Posted - 2014.07.28 07:23:00 - [137] - Quote lol buff ADS as tanks fade to black (-.-)y-- & justice for all
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 349	Posted - 2014.07.28 07:51:00 - [138] - Quote There are a few things that are needed but a way to differentiate between the swarm level before getting hit isn't one of them(there is currently no way to tell what tier weapon is being used for anti-infantry weapons so why is there a need for an AV weapon). What should be prioritized is that the damage indicator needs to be fixed(simply capture and hold the first missile of a volleys indication should work) and infantry need to render from farther out consistently(at a minimum of their weapons max range) or you could de-render dropships randomly between 50m and 100m from the enemy infantry to level the playing field(also don't render until you have fired one to two shots). Breach forge bunny hopping should be fixed as well. As far as afterburners are concerned they're the only defense the dropship has vs AV. Until something else is added that gives a dropship another defense vs AV(such as chaff) no changes should be made to them(although the first thing to look at when the time comes would be cooldown time).

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4931	Posted - 2014.07.28 11:10:00 - [139] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging. I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced. Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class. I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage? For example how many militia swarm hits in Bravo how many in Charlie? Sorry, but I do not agree at all with the informational disparity you claim, and that there is a dropship specific negative bias, Driving around in a HAV and getting forged does not tell you whether it's a militia or prototype forge. If you know your dropship well, you will know exactly what you are getting hit by, by the HP reduction of the hit. Also, engaging another Infantry tells you what about the weapon he has? I run away if I'm stripped down to armor in an engagement, or not. Same with being sniped, if he is going to kill me in the second shot, he probably has a Thales and I hide, if it's a militia sniper I shrug it off. He doesn't have differently colored bullet trails by tier nor is the color of his suit. Engaging another enemy does tell you what weapon he has. Blue flashes means rail rifle, sharp bursts means combat rifle, one long smoke trail means sniper, and long yellow stream means scrambler and a long line is laser. Its very easy to tell what weapon you enemy is using and its generaly very easy to differentiate between the races, as well as the classes i.e the logis scouts assaults and the heavies. All the weapons are clearly distinguishable by thier own sounds and bullet trail. Easy to distguish asault variants from tactical variants and so on. Also infantry has cover to hide behind and when you aim directly at someone you can read his suit stats (race, class and wither std basic or proto) if you cant already identify by the colors of the suit. The difference is that on the ground, infantry render at the same rate. I see you and you see me. The closest example for infantry as to what pilots go through is the cloaked scout debate. People were pissed at being shot by an invisble scout. So CCP changed it so scouts supposedly cannot shoot while cloaked because it was an unfair advantage. With dropships your first warning that there is even a swarm launcher on the field firing at you is either getting hit, or watching missiles flying through the air one their way to hit you. (we engage between 50 - 80m max swarms still chase us for 400M). The swarmer themself is impossible to identify unless you watch him firing missiles at you, because infantry render for dropships at a much smaller range than dropships render for infantry. The only way to defend yourself is to run away or kill him. The only way to gauge how dangerous he is (as things stand now about half a million isk vs at best a 200 K proto suit) is by number of missiles. wyrokamis eat my dropship alive. Heck it tricky fighting just one ADV swarm launcher, 2 and i am out the area pronto. Since all forge guns are deadly i steer clear whenever i see a blue flash. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ Swarms from the ADS point of veiw, explains much better than i can. Its so hard for infantry only players to comprehend, because you dont have to fight autolocking sniper rounds and your only option is to sprint 400 meters away without cover. The most common thing i hear on comms with other pilots or said on comms when i'm flying : GTFO. Do you see the tier of the weapon by the muzzle flare? I am not talking about type. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 947	Posted - 2014.07.28 11:19:00 - [140] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Do you see the tier of the weapon by the muzzle flare? I am not talking about type. More to the point, if there's a much smaller difference between standard and prototype, then it doesn't really matter what tier, it will hurt about the same. Dust/Eve transfers

Greiv Rabbah KiLo. 14	Posted - 2014.07.28 12:00:00 - [141] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The only intel I can get in ground combat is usually: Frame - General Size Race - General Shape Weapon - Sounds and damage I cannot tell apart a Sentinel from a Heavy Basic, or Assault from a Basic Medium. you tell them apart either by receiving intel or by gathering it. either way, when you point at an enemy, tacnet supplies targeting info such as shields, hp, class, and tier. basically it gives you enough info to determine whether to attack, whether you need backup, how to attack, and whether theyre going to stomp you if they see you before you regroup with squad. that info can also be called out to improve the quality of scans and identify greater threats to call out for assassination. and for some reason, nothing about targeting enemies is ever explained anywhere in the entire game.... also, if a suit or weapon has excessive amounts of black and red... prototype. almost every time.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11349	Posted - 2014.07.28 12:15:00 - [142] - Quote Greiv Rabbah wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The only intel I can get in ground combat is usually: Frame - General Size Race - General Shape Weapon - Sounds and damage I cannot tell apart a Sentinel from a Heavy Basic, or Assault from a Basic Medium. you tell them apart either by receiving intel or by gathering it. either way, when you point at an enemy, tacnet supplies targeting info such as shields, hp, class, and tier. basically it gives you enough info to determine whether to attack, whether you need backup, how to attack, and whether theyre going to stomp you if they see you before you regroup with squad. that info can also be called out to improve the quality of scans and identify greater threats to call out for assassination. and for some reason, nothing about targeting enemies is ever explained anywhere in the entire game.... also, if a suit or weapon has excessive amounts of black and red... prototype. almost every time. I am well aware about the TacNet targeting info, however when I encounter a heavy in CQC and I have no where to run, I do not have time to look at the TacNet. These aren't vehicles, I can die in less than second, I don't have time to read text. I make my best assesment (Race? Armor/Shields? Prototype?) and engage according to that. 99% of the time, your intel is limited to Frame and Race, and if it's Prototype then tier. (The difference between STD and ADV in color is hard to spot in the middle of a fire fight or at range) Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3157	Posted - 2014.07.28 12:24:00 - [143] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: ... I am a deterrent. I am not a threat. - Swarmer, Proficiency 5 You cannot be detterent unless you are a threat to whatever it is you are detering. It's the fact you are a threat that deters them. A damn fine point, good sir. I concede. ~~I am a deterrent. I am not a threat.~~ I am sufficiently threatening to deter, though highly unlikely to kill. Exactly, which stems from the fact it takes 4 volleys from the a 3-round mag weapon to destroy most Dropships. They know you can't kill in one mag, but they also know if they don't leave soon they are gonna end up 6 feet under at rather high velocity of descent. They have to leave and they have the opportunity to do so. They are deterred. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11351	Posted - 2014.07.28 12:38:00 - [144] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: ... I am a deterrent. I am not a threat. - Swarmer, Proficiency 5 You cannot be detterent unless you are a threat to whatever it is you are detering. It's the fact you are a threat that deters them. A damn fine point, good sir. I concede. ~~I am a deterrent. I am not a threat.~~ I am sufficiently threatening to deter, though highly unlikely to kill. Exactly, which stems from the fact it takes 4 volleys from the a 3-round mag weapon to destroy most Dropships. They know you can't kill in one mag, but they also know if they don't leave soon they are gonna end up 6 feet under at rather high velocity of descent. They have to leave and they have the opportunity to do so. They are deterred. Not for long though. Lack of ammunition really makes it difficult to keep them at bay. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Greiv Rabbah KiLo. 14	Posted - 2014.07.28 12:43:00 - [145] - Quote medomai grey wrote: My python goes down in 3 volleys from a proto swarm launcher, 3-4 from advanced, and never from mlt; because mlt does negligible damage. Were are some of you getting numbers like 5-6 proto swarm volleys to down a python? awhile back this was a bit of an issue, should militia swarm launchers ever actually take down a vehicle? the general consensus was no, nerfs abounded, and everybody lived happily ever after, but id like to touch on this and revisit that every other militia weapon can kill and doing negligible damage(this is very true) makes the vehicle battle experience(already so barebones as dust becomes less new eden battles and more some lame shooter like cod or some ***) new player unfriendly. pretty much "new player unfriendly" in the exact opposite direction of giving us all free mlt cars in that any new player who ever sees a vehicle will be quitting dust soon. spotting a vehicle at low levels means getting blasted to a grease spot over and over until (no not until the battle ends but until) they turn off their ps3 and never play dust again. anyway... half the time it comes down to infantry with missiles that arent going to scratch your enemy vs vehicles with missiles also, except compared to (4 at a time, 6 sets, after you run out enemy at full health) the vehicle gets (1 at a time, 8 before reload, hit anywhere near opponent to vaporize with splash) i mean... using the same type of attack the difference in hurt* is "tickled" vs "nagasaki" so whats up with mlt swarms? now that there are no vehicles that are REALLY special, and new player weapons vs vehicles are designed to make you quit the game in 20 minutes or less, it gets harder to convince ppl that anyone at ccp doesnt want dust dead
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3157	Posted - 2014.07.28 12:47:00 - [146] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: ... I am a deterrent. I am not a threat. - Swarmer, Proficiency 5 You cannot be detterent unless you are a threat to whatever it is you are detering. It's the fact you are a threat that deters them. A damn fine point, good sir. I concede. ~~I am a deterrent. I am not a threat.~~ I am sufficiently threatening to deter, though highly unlikely to kill. Exactly, which stems from the fact it takes 4 volleys from the a 3-round mag weapon to destroy most Dropships. They know you can't kill in one mag, but they also know if they don't leave soon they are gonna end up 6 feet under at rather high velocity of descent. They have to leave and they have the opportunity to do so. They are deterred. Not for long though. Lack of ammunition really makes it difficult to keep them at bay. 1) Getting an extra mag + 1/2 enough to deter 4 dropships in a row or 6 with lvl 5 max ammo capacity. 2) Bring a Nanohive They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8757	Posted - 2014.07.28 13:21:00 - [147] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: ... I am a deterrent. I am not a threat. - Swarmer, Proficiency 5 You cannot be detterent unless you are a threat to whatever it is you are detering. It's the fact you are a threat that deters them. A damn fine point, good sir. I concede. ~~I am a deterrent. I am not a threat.~~ I am sufficiently threatening to deter, though highly unlikely to kill. Exactly, which stems from the fact it takes 4 volleys from the a 3-round mag weapon to destroy most Dropships. They know you can't kill in one mag, but they also know if they don't leave soon they are gonna end up 6 feet under at rather high velocity of descent. They have to leave and they have the opportunity to do so. They are deterred. Not for long though. Lack of ammunition really makes it difficult to keep them at bay. We're adding another 4 spare rounds base to all Swarm Launchers to help with that. We'll also be looking at Nanite cost next time we review the Swarm Launcher. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3157	Posted - 2014.07.28 13:21:00 - [148] - Quote I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much. Observe the following fitting http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594 It has 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred) 1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Missile Turret It has 2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150) 950 Armour +24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance. - Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened. +102 HP/s regen built in + Faster Speed and Acceleration Now observe this one http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902 1x MLT Afterburner 1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper 1x STD 120mm Armour Plate 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Rail Turret It has 950 Shields 3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477) - No Hardener +112 Passive Regen - Slower than Python If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Demandred Moores Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 11	Posted - 2014.07.28 13:38:00 - [149] - Quote Don't have enough amo? Bring hives, use a logi suit, min commando. I'll run from swarms faster than a forge generally.
Demandred Moores Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 11	Posted - 2014.07.28 13:59:00 - [150] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much. Observe the following fitting http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594 It has 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred) 1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Missile Turret It has 2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150) 950 Armour +24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance. - Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened. +102 HP/s regen built in + Faster Speed and Acceleration Now observe this one http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902 1x MLT Afterburner 1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper 1x STD 120mm Armour Plate 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Rail Turret It has 950 Shields 3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477) - No Hardener +112 Passive Regen - Slower than Python If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret. Replace woth proto heavy shield extender Proto after burner Proto scanner Xt missiles

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3159	Posted - 2014.07.28 14:02:00 - [151] - Quote Demandred Moores wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much. Observe the following fitting http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594 It has 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred) 1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Missile Turret It has 2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150) 950 Armour +24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance. - Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened. +102 HP/s regen built in + Faster Speed and Acceleration Now observe this one http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902 1x MLT Afterburner 1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper 1x STD 120mm Armour Plate 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Rail Turret It has 950 Shields 3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477) - No Hardener +112 Passive Regen - Slower than Python If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret. Replace woth proto heavy shield extender Proto after burner Proto scanner Xt missiles No, the hardener gives much greater survivability, to do otherwise would be pointless. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Greiv Rabbah KiLo. 14	Posted - 2014.07.28 14:23:00 - [152] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Greiv Rabbah wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The only intel I can get in ground combat is usually: Frame - General Size Race - General Shape Weapon - Sounds and damage I cannot tell apart a Sentinel from a Heavy Basic, or Assault from a Basic Medium. you tell them apart either by receiving intel or by gathering it. either way, when you point at an enemy, tacnet supplies targeting info such as shields, hp, class, and tier. basically it gives you enough info to determine whether to attack, whether you need backup, how to attack, and whether theyre going to stomp you if they see you before you regroup with squad. that info can also be called out to improve the quality of scans and identify greater threats to call out for assassination. and for some reason, nothing about targeting enemies is ever explained anywhere in the entire game.... also, if a suit or weapon has excessive amounts of black and red... prototype. almost every time. I am well aware about the TacNet targeting info, however when I encounter a heavy in CQC and I have no where to run, I do not have time to look at the TacNet. These aren't vehicles, I can die in less than second, I don't have time to read text. I make my best assesment (Race? Armor/Shields? Prototype?) and engage according to that. 99% of the time, your intel is limited to Frame and Race, and if it's Prototype then tier. (The difference between STD and ADV in color is hard to spot in the middle of a fire fight or at range) nobody said you should be reading info on your enemy while in a cqc fight. if youre in a cqc fight with someone you should already know about your enemy or you should have gotten jumped. if youre squadding up, look for someone who does intel. keep in mind not everybody is a combat unit. support abounds, you should be using it. also... this is supposed to be an mmo as well as a shooter. in any mmo, the guy that doesnt even target a mob to see whether hes baiting death gets laughed out and usually has trouble finding a group. it amuses me that here theres a mentality that if you see someone you need to kill them. so violent, all of you :P
Demandred Moores Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 11	Posted - 2014.07.28 15:43:00 - [153] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Demandred Moores wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much. Observe the following fitting http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594 It has 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred) 1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Missile Turret It has 2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150) 950 Armour +24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance. - Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened. +102 HP/s regen built in + Faster Speed and Acceleration Now observe this one http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902 1x MLT Afterburner 1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper 1x STD 120mm Armour Plate 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Rail Turret It has 950 Shields 3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477) - No Hardener +112 Passive Regen - Slower than Python If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret. Replace woth proto heavy shield extender Proto after burner Proto scanner Xt missiles No, the hardener gives much greater survivability, to do otherwise would be pointless. Come charlie you would have about 3500 shield I run this fit in pc and pub. Then hardner means you have to wait to come back more shielding is betterbif you're a good pilot. But whatever works for you is what works for you.
Dalmont Legrand RUST 415 RUST415 491	Posted - 2014.07.28 16:00:00 - [154] - Quote Rattati read my reply on page six of this topic for the sake of logic. All this cryies that pilots do are annoying, since I fly myself and know that good pilot can handle 2-3 proto swarmers at ease. I have been in 1 on 1 vs Judge Rhadamantus lately, what I had? 3 dmg mods proto, proto swarm ishukone, nanos, 600 ehp, what I did to him? Well first attack he wasn't aware so i got his shields and on third launch he already was running and rockets just self-destructed. He got back minute later and killed me in two shots as well getting my nanohives blown, I couldn't even get his shield as first time I shot rockets I was dead the next second. It was on a map with main road and three towers at each side with 4 objectives, it was domination as I remember. So now considering new stats for swarms and dropships I must say I need to try it before saying but still it seems it won't be so effective, still my data analysis, I will surely try it as soon as Charlie comes out. Where do you get those feedbacks from? From crying noobs that don't know how to fly? I think yes, since even Rhadamantus screams poor guy. The best is yet to come No longer candidate
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11354	Posted - 2014.07.28 16:06:00 - [155] - Quote Greiv Rabbah wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Greiv Rabbah wrote: Cat Merc wrote: The only intel I can get in ground combat is usually: Frame - General Size Race - General Shape Weapon - Sounds and damage I cannot tell apart a Sentinel from a Heavy Basic, or Assault from a Basic Medium. you tell them apart either by receiving intel or by gathering it. either way, when you point at an enemy, tacnet supplies targeting info such as shields, hp, class, and tier. basically it gives you enough info to determine whether to attack, whether you need backup, how to attack, and whether theyre going to stomp you if they see you before you regroup with squad. that info can also be called out to improve the quality of scans and identify greater threats to call out for assassination. and for some reason, nothing about targeting enemies is ever explained anywhere in the entire game.... also, if a suit or weapon has excessive amounts of black and red... prototype. almost every time. I am well aware about the TacNet targeting info, however when I encounter a heavy in CQC and I have no where to run, I do not have time to look at the TacNet. These aren't vehicles, I can die in less than second, I don't have time to read text. I make my best assesment (Race? Armor/Shields? Prototype?) and engage according to that. 99% of the time, your intel is limited to Frame and Race, and if it's Prototype then tier. (The difference between STD and ADV in color is hard to spot in the middle of a fire fight or at range) nobody said you should be reading info on your enemy while in a cqc fight. if youre in a cqc fight with someone you should already know about your enemy or you should have gotten jumped. if youre squadding up, look for someone who does intel. keep in mind not everybody is a combat unit. support abounds, you should be using it. also... this is supposed to be an mmo as well as a shooter. in any mmo, the guy that doesnt even target a mob to see whether hes baiting death gets laughed out and usually has trouble finding a group. it amuses me that here theres a mentality that if you see someone you need to kill them. so violent, all of you :P Except I am mostly a CQC fighter, which means corridors and tight places. Scanners don't give you intel about what the target is through walls, only its location. In those cases I have to observe it through a wall and see the speed at which it's moving to figure out the frame size. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Final Resolution. 281	Posted - 2014.07.28 17:00:00 - [156] - Quote Though it 'might' not be fair for a proto swarmer to solo an ADS, from my experience, when facing a skilled pilot I DO get the first surprise attack and even manage to empty my entire clip, this along the lines as to what Judge explained on his video defending Afterburners, by that point the ADS pilot is on evasive maneuvers getting as fast from my area as possible, not against it, they should be able to survive such encounters, but is my mission accomplished? making the pilot flee for 10 seconds? maybe. The problem for me is what happens next, Of course I can't just stand there scanning the skies with swarm launcher primed. Infantry rush to where the swarm missiles came from forcing an engagement. And to make matters worse, it only takes the time for me to stop looking up and turn around trying to hide from infantry for the ADS to recover and get back to my area - this time hunting specifically for me, only this time, I won't be able to land a surprise attack, any hives I have will be destroyed, my ammo will run low and with two or three indirect hits I will be dead. The ADS pilot can engage everything, the swarm user cannot, the Forge user 'can' engage everything, but I don't know if that's enough of a hard counter, is the automatic response to ADS a Forge Gun or another ADS? Swarms are great for hunting starter pilots though 3-4 sets of missiles = dead dropship This is just my experience, I've never piloted a dropship (successfully) but have faced them from the ground for a long time. www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2653	Posted - 2014.07.28 17:38:00 - [157] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Demandred Moores wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much. Observe the following fitting http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594 It has 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred) 1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Missile Turret It has 2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150) 950 Armour +24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance. - Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened. +102 HP/s regen built in + Faster Speed and Acceleration Now observe this one http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902 1x MLT Afterburner 1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper 1x STD 120mm Armour Plate 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Rail Turret It has 950 Shields 3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477) - No Hardener +112 Passive Regen - Slower than Python If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret. Replace woth proto heavy shield extender Proto after burner Proto scanner Xt missiles No, the hardener gives much greater survivability, to do otherwise would be pointless. XT-Missiles Enhanced light shield booster Complex heavy shield extender Basic Afterburner Complex Powergrid Upgrade Tanker/Logi
lobo christy G.R.A.V.E INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 4	Posted - 2014.07.28 18:47:00 - [158] - Quote I like the swarms the way there now Just leave them.
DaNizzle4shizle New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 860	Posted - 2014.07.28 18:55:00 - [159] - Quote idiots. 6 missiles were just fine. Desire means never quit. -New Age Empire. Director of logistics and recruitment. ,msg me in game. #Cockmeat Sandwiches
Demandred Moores Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 12	Posted - 2014.07.28 19:38:00 - [160] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Demandred Moores wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much. Observe the following fitting http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594 It has 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred) 1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Missile Turret It has 2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150) 950 Armour +24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance. - Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened. +102 HP/s regen built in + Faster Speed and Acceleration Now observe this one http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902 1x MLT Afterburner 1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper 1x STD 120mm Armour Plate 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Rail Turret It has 950 Shields 3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477) - No Hardener +112 Passive Regen - Slower than Python If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret. Replace woth proto heavy shield extender Proto after burner Proto scanner Xt missiles No, the hardener gives much greater survivability, to do otherwise would be pointless. XT-Missiles Enhanced light shield booster Complex heavy shield extender Basic Afterburner Complex Powergrid Upgrade One of my favorite fits Also to get back o subject, amarr logi and min comando make great av classes, and bring a forge friend with your swarms to reallyhurt an ads, one swarmer SHOULDN'T be enough. It just shouldn't and it isn't for a reason.

Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 369	Posted - 2014.07.28 19:51:00 - [161] - Quote Same crap again. Pilots cry they can't stay in an area all day so you give them more HP and nerf swarms again.
Cass Caul 9	Posted - 2014.07.29 01:18:00 - [162] - Quote Listen. Guys. I understand. You two are really trying hard to help put this game on the right track. You've done a mostly good job at that. A few faults, that in standard CCP mantra you refuse to admit was a mistake, but the vast majority of what has been done was good. Now you're busy. We've all been there. You've got deadlines. You've been staying at work late. You're exhausted. You need just a small little pick-me-up to get you through the day. You drink your coffee, but that stopped helping weeks ago. The guys above you are experience the same thing, someone comes in with a solution. Just a small amount of coke, just a bump. That's the invigoration you need to get all this work done. But I think you two have had enough. Just look at yourselves. Increasing dropship HP? How much crack have you had? Because it has needed to a Rockso amount to make these changes sound like a good idea. Give it a few days, sober up, and wise up. Dropships do not need more HP. If you want to equalize them then drop the HP on the ships. You're listening to these crybaby, insolent vehicle pilots again. Without Swarm Launcher, Plasma Cannon, and Forge Gun range increasing out to 500m those things are just gunboats floating in the air. If you can't keep up, shut up.
Right-wing Extremist Nos Nothi 370	Posted - 2014.07.29 01:37:00 - [163] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Listen. Guys. I understand. You two are really trying hard to help put this game on the right track. You've done a mostly good job at that. A few faults, that in standard CCP mantra you refuse to admit was a mistake, but the vast majority of what has been done was good. Now you're busy. We've all been there. You've got deadlines. You've been staying at work late. You're exhausted. You need just a small little pick-me-up to get you through the day. You drink your coffee, but that stopped helping weeks ago. The guys above you are experience the same thing, someone comes in with a solution. Just a small amount of coke, just a bump. That's the invigoration you need to get all this work done. But I think you two have had enough. Just look at yourselves. Increasing dropship HP? How much crack have you had? Because it has needed to be a Rockso amount to make these changes sound like a good idea. Give it a few days, sober up, and wise up. Dropships do not need more HP. If you want to equalize them then drop the HP on the ships. You're listening to these crybaby, insolent vehicle pilots again. Without Swarm Launcher, Plasma Cannon, and Forge Gun range increasing out to 500m those things are just gunboats floating in the air. This I opened the thread expecting to read about how Swarm Launchers were getting buffed into usefulness/effectiveness. Instead, I got to read about how Assault Dropships are being buffed. As if they needed it. They don't. AV needs buff, not ADS. ADS are invincible if a pilot is even halfway paying attention. Jaceon Pale-eye. Soon to be the deadliest prick in OSG. Unless Mal says no :(
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3163	Posted - 2014.07.29 01:41:00 - [164] - Quote Demandred Moores wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Demandred Moores wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much. Observe the following fitting http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594 It has 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred) 1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Missile Turret It has 2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150) 950 Armour +24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance. - Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened. +102 HP/s regen built in + Faster Speed and Acceleration Now observe this one http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902 1x MLT Afterburner 1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper 1x STD 120mm Armour Plate 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Rail Turret It has 950 Shields 3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477) - No Hardener +112 Passive Regen - Slower than Python If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret. Replace woth proto heavy shield extender Proto after burner Proto scanner Xt missiles No, the hardener gives much greater survivability, to do otherwise would be pointless. XT-Missiles Enhanced light shield booster Complex heavy shield extender Basic Afterburner Complex Powergrid Upgrade One of my favorite fits Also to get back o subject, amarr logi and min comando make great av classes, and bring a forge friend with your swarms to reallyhurt an ads, one swarmer SHOULDN'T be enough. It just shouldn't and it isn't for a reason. No so long as it is a 'Personally Operated Vehicle' - That is to say only one person is required to make it offensive - it should only require 1 man disable it. ADS, HAV's, Installations, Heavies, Scouts and anything else that only requires 1 man to operate should NEVER make a COMPULSORY REQUIREMENT of teamwork. Anything but this creates a force strength disparity and we end up exactly where we were with tanks in 1.6. The fact so many of you are happy to omit a shield hardener from your fittings (something that effectively triples your shield HP) only strengthens my arguement that a 600 Shield HP boost simply isn't required right now. It needs to be put aside, and left as an option if they need a buff in the future. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1061	Posted - 2014.07.29 01:56:00 - [165] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging. I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced. Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class. I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage? For example how many militia swarm hits in Bravo how many in Charlie? Sorry, but I do not agree at all with the informational disparity you claim, and that there is a dropship specific negative bias, Driving around in a HAV and getting forged does not tell you whether it's a militia or prototype forge. If you know your dropship well, you will know exactly what you are getting hit by, by the HP reduction of the hit. Also, engaging another Infantry tells you what about the weapon he has? I run away if I'm stripped down to armor in an engagement, or not. Same with being sniped, if he is going to kill me in the second shot, he probably has a Thales and I hide, if it's a militia sniper I shrug it off. He doesn't have differently colored bullet trails by tier nor is the color of his suit. Engaging another enemy does tell you what weapon he has. Blue flashes means rail rifle, sharp bursts means combat rifle, one long smoke trail means sniper, and long yellow stream means scrambler and a long line is laser. Its very easy to tell what weapon you enemy is using and its generaly very easy to differentiate between the races, as well as the classes i.e the logis scouts assaults and the heavies. All the weapons are clearly distinguishable by thier own sounds and bullet trail. Easy to distguish asault variants from tactical variants and so on. Also infantry has cover to hide behind and when you aim directly at someone you can read his suit stats (race, class and wither std basic or proto) if you cant already identify by the colors of the suit. The difference is that on the ground, infantry render at the same rate. I see you and you see me. The closest example for infantry as to what pilots go through is the cloaked scout debate. People were pissed at being shot by an invisble scout. So CCP changed it so scouts supposedly cannot shoot while cloaked because it was an unfair advantage. With dropships your first warning that there is even a swarm launcher on the field firing at you is either getting hit, or watching missiles flying through the air one their way to hit you. (we engage between 50 - 80m max swarms still chase us for 400M). The swarmer themself is impossible to identify unless you watch him firing missiles at you, because infantry render for dropships at a much smaller range than dropships render for infantry. The only way to defend yourself is to run away or kill him. The only way to gauge how dangerous he is (as things stand now about half a million isk vs at best a 200 K proto suit) is by number of missiles. wyrokamis eat my dropship alive. Heck it tricky fighting just one ADV swarm launcher, 2 and i am out the area pronto. Since all forge guns are deadly i steer clear whenever i see a blue flash. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ Swarms from the ADS point of veiw, explains much better than i can. Its so hard for infantry only players to comprehend, because you dont have to fight autolocking sniper rounds and your only option is to sprint 400 meters away without cover. The most common thing i hear on comms with other pilots or said on comms when i'm flying : GTFO. Do you see the tier of the weapon by the muzzle flare? I am not talking about type. I can tell if a weapon is protoype just by looking at it. I cannot tell the difference between ADV and STD.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 141	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:26:00 - [166] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Listen. Guys. I understand. You two are really trying hard to help put this game on the right track. You've done a mostly good job at that. A few faults, that in standard CCP mantra you refuse to admit was a mistake, but the vast majority of what has been done was good. Now you're busy. We've all been there. You've got deadlines. You've been staying at work late. You're exhausted. You need just a small little pick-me-up to get you through the day. You drink your coffee, but that stopped helping weeks ago. The guys above you are experience the same thing, someone comes in with a solution. Just a small amount of coke, just a bump. That's the invigoration you need to get all this work done. But I think you two have had enough. Just look at yourselves. Increasing dropship HP? How much crack have you had? Because it has needed to be a Rockso amount to make these changes sound like a good idea. Give it a few days, sober up, and wise up. Dropships do not need more HP. If you want to equalize them then drop the HP on the ships. You're listening to these crybaby, insolent vehicle pilots again. Without Swarm Launcher, Plasma Cannon, and Forge Gun range increasing out to 500m those things are just gunboats floating in the air. Your uninformed opinion is discarded, you have not flown a python, or a ship, and you can't aim while being hit. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 141	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:28:00 - [167] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Same crap again. Pilots cry they can't stay in an area all day so you give them more HP and nerf swarms again. Ah yes, because getting hit and being unable to aim is fair, getting e shotted by a forge is fair, we have to drop lowish to see people....breach forge is just stupid vs dropships... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11030	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:35:00 - [168] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: I can tell if a weapon is protoype just by looking at it. I cannot tell the difference between ADV and STD. Considering how the 3rd Person Model for the weapons all have the same color, I'm willing to bet that this is a lie. And nothing of value was lost that day... -HAND
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12305	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:39:00 - [169] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: I can tell if a weapon is protoype just by looking at it. I cannot tell the difference between ADV and STD. Considering how the 3rd Person Model for the weapons all have the same color, I'm willing to bet that this is a lie. Nah bro its like I can tell what tier of Small Turrets a player is using just by sniffing them.... "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 141	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:44:00 - [170] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Atiim wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: I can tell if a weapon is protoype just by looking at it. I cannot tell the difference between ADV and STD. Considering how the 3rd Person Model for the weapons all have the same color, I'm willing to bet that this is a lie. Nah bro its like I can tell what tier of Small Turrets a player is using just by sniffing them.... I can sense cloaked people by using a detection spell. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.

Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11032	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:45:00 - [171] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Nah bro its like I can tell what tier of Small Turrets a player is using just by sniffing them.... Most 20GJ Turrets are either on LAVs (in which case they're typically moving too fast to see the tier), or they are on an ADS, in which the former applies as well (even more-so considering how the area where the ADS' turret is very small and hard to spot). Though what do you mean by "sniffing" them. And nothing of value was lost that day... -HAND
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11032	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:46:00 - [172] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Same crap again. Pilots cry they can't stay in an area all day so you give them more HP and nerf swarms again. Ah yes, because getting hit and being unable to aim is fair, getting e shotted by a forge is fair, we have to drop lowish to see people....breach forge is just stupid vs dropships... Considering how your evasion time is only (at most) 1s longer than that FG's charge time, yes it's very fair. Not sure why you believe you should have both High HP, DPS, RoF, and M/S. And nothing of value was lost that day... -HAND
Cass Caul 17	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:47:00 - [173] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Your uninformed opinion is discarded, you have not flown a python, or a ship, and you can't aim while being hit. You're the reason we need people that are actually good at the game to help CCP balance the game. Not just a bunch of little self-entitled children that want everything that they use to be the absolute best. Kid, I've been piloting dropships since before your date of creation. If you can't keep up, shut up.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 141	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:48:00 - [174] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Your uninformed opinion is discarded, you have not flown a python, or a ship, and you can't aim while being hit. You're the reason we need people that are actually good at the game to help CCP balance the game. Not just a bunch of little self-entitled children that want everything that they use to be the absolute best. Kid, I've been piloting dropships since before your date of creation. Closed beta vet scrub, used a ads day 1. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 141	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:49:00 - [175] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Same crap again. Pilots cry they can't stay in an area all day so you give them more HP and nerf swarms again. Ah yes, because getting hit and being unable to aim is fair, getting e shotted by a forge is fair, we have to drop lowish to see people....breach forge is just stupid vs dropships... Considering how your evasion time is only (at most) 1s longer than that FG's charge time, yes it's very fair. Not sure why you believe you should have both High HP, DPS, RoF, and M/S. While heavies get dps, rof, ehp, and speed with lav... Getting 3 shotted is op, it's not that hard to aim 3 hits, no python has ever killed me while forging, which isn't fair, as he must flee immediately or die....and if 2 people use a forge and don't suck, you have a 90% mortality rate. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Tesfa Alem Until thee End 176	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:49:00 - [176] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much. Observe the following fitting http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594 It has 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred) 1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Missile Turret It has 2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150) 950 Armour +24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance. - Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened. +102 HP/s regen built in + Faster Speed and Acceleration Now observe this one http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902 1x MLT Afterburner 1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper 1x STD 120mm Armour Plate 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Rail Turret It has 950 Shields 3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477) - No Hardener +112 Passive Regen - Slower than Python If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret. Dont pay attention to protofits,if anything it shows a false view of air to air combat especialyy as it currently stands. if i encounter any Python with less than 3K shiels i will definitely engage in my Incubus and will most likley kill it if it doesn't run away especially with just an ADV turret. With the 600 more shields It wont be OP it will have a fighting chance. For the reverse sake for armor ships any pilot who flys an incubus with under 3K hp is asking for death. As an incubus pilot i like the buff to the python it makes thing a bit more fair. and to respond to rattati sure the only difference to discern in tier is whether its assault (either tier 4 or proto prof.1 RR,SCR, or Cr) or semi auto (all possible tiers except the AR which would be either tier 2, 4 or proto and the HMG which would be either tier 4 or proto) But just with the muzzle flash you can tell what type it is, whether its more powerful vs sheilds or armor and therefore how to engage it. You can gauge danger in many ways dropship pilots cannot. When all you to go by when fighting another infantry player is the muzze flash you tend to become quite good at it and it becomes a very valubale piece of information. All pilots have to ID swarms is 1) missiles fired from a pixel 2) how many missiles are in the air before i'm going to be hit or 3) getting hit. No way to tell which suit or as in most cases which way the swarms are even coming from. even with forge gunners you can tell by how quickly blue lughts flash accross your feild of view as you spin and afterburn like mad trying to stay alive. So now our only way to ID any sort of swarmer is to get hit or see the pixel as he fires. This is imprtant to gauge whether or not we should engage the swarmer or keep away, becuase its 30% or our total knowledge base. On the other hand i aim a weapon at antoher infantry player and i can tell down to the effiency % or my weapon damaging them. Try dropshipping every day for a month, you soon realise how dangerous and difficult is to fly dropships and how much we rely upon so little infromation. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11033	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:50:00 - [177] - Quote Since there hasn't been any statement regarding this, may we know the rationale behind the Dropship Buff-¦ and SL nerf? And nothing of value was lost that day... -HAND
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11033	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:54:00 - [178] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: While heavies get dps, rof, ehp, and speed with lav... That is another problem within itself. JRleo jr wrote: Getting 3 shotted is op, it's not that hard to aim 3 hits, no python has ever killed me while forging, which isn't fair, as he must flee immediately or die....and if 2 people use a forge and don't suck, you have a 90% mortality rate. 2v1 Engagements are null when discussing balance, and from my experience with piloting Pythons the first and second shots may connect (if the FGer is good), but with my maneuvering (and common sense) the 3rd will never connect. If getting 3HK'd is OP, then the Small Missile & 20GJ Railgun Turrets need a serious nerf. And nothing of value was lost that day... -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 141	Posted - 2014.07.29 03:00:00 - [179] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: While heavies get dps, rof, ehp, and speed with lav... That is another problem within itself. JRleo jr wrote: Getting 3 shotted is op, it's not that hard to aim 3 hits, no python has ever killed me while forging, which isn't fair, as he must flee immediately or die....and if 2 people use a forge and don't suck, you have a 90% mortality rate. 2v1 Engagements are null when discussing balance, and from my experience with piloting Pythons the first and second shots may connect (if the FGer is good), but with my maneuvering (and common sense) the 3rd will never connect. If getting 3HK'd is OP, then the Small Missile & 20GJ Railgun Turrets need a serious nerf. Infantry costs less, and is harder to get to than a big ass ship in the sky. And a python should win 1v1 a infantry av from a realistic view. Big ship that has its main tank that resists the av people use, or an infantry with a handheld gun...really I always wondered... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Shamarskii Simon Kinsho Swords Caldari State 0	Posted - 2014.07.29 03:55:00 - [180] - Quote It takes a lot to get me to post but here we go. Swarms vs Dropship; the battles for the sky. Seriously guys? Seriously? I've been in both situations: I've shot at a python w/ swarms and have been shot at by swarms in my python. There is one thing we are all forgetting; nothing should just be point and click. By point and click I mean don't shoot at a dropship chilling at 175m that is the FIRST problem. At that range (let's use lil logic here.), the missiles must travel 175m to the ship (if the ship does not move). The pilot would most likely wait until the second salvo of missiles. Why? Because the chances of outrunning them are now far more in the pilots favor. One can turn around, afterburners go, and then it's pray and do a barrel roll (if you could pull one off that is). do you see what I mean here guys? The swarm shouldn't be just point and shoot. Wait for the ship to come closer... It'll be in (effective) combat range around 100m. Now, it is far more likely to get the dropship, this is something I do as AV infantry. If it is an incubus you are dealing with the whole thing changes to when did you pull the trigger, when was the AB activated. I've dropped ships (and have been dropped) by reps. Simply the damage was unable to be avoided. The AB was activated too late. Now from the ship's point of view... Swarms. Swarms everywhere. Run... And run fast... When one salvo comes, a second is on its way. Unless, you feel lucky... Hoping your RoF and how you tilt the ship can kill the impending threat before you bite dust. Sadly, Missiles fail to render sometimes or a ghost seems to be shooting. That's up to you; challenge or naw? Honest, the missile turret ships do not have it easy, they aren't simply gunboats (unless you make a gunboat but the HP will have severe drawbacks.), they have a whole new plane to play with when it comes to killing in an AV vs Ship moment. One must use its pitch, yaw, and roll effectively while moving the turret up or down, whilst dodging swarms (most likely will pull out in that situation) or forges. AV isn't supposed to be easy neither is killing... It's supposed to be a work of art: well thought out and dangerously executed. To swarmers: it is not a lock and destroy weapon. One must time it; patience is a virtue. To pilots: the swarms are not strong against one. You have simply failed to do something most, if not, all pilots forget to do constantly: have an escape route and don't get low. You have failed, not the swarms are too strong. (now the swarms avoiding buildings is a pain....) Oh and the inky doesn't need 100hp boost... The python could take 3-500hp tho... Or it's simply glass.

Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11036	Posted - 2014.07.29 03:56:00 - [181] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Infantry costs less, and is harder to get to than a big ass ship in the sky. Not after Hotfix Charlie reduces the ADS' price. Though ISK/AUR/SP/LP are not valid arguments when engaging in balance discussions. JRleo jr wrote: And a python should win 1v1 a infantry av from a realistic view. From a realistic view, a Python being hit from a single Swarm volley should be instantly killed without the ability to 'bail', and a Forge Gun (aka kinetic slug powered by a capacitor traveling at 1200m/s) should cause the Python to vaporize[/i] JRleo jr wrote: Big ship that has its main tank that resists the av people use, or an infantry with a handheld gun...really I always wondered... Your comparison is incomplete, it should be: Big ship with: Superior DPS Superior HP Superior Movement Speed Superior Evasion Capabilities Superior Ammunition Capacity Superior Kills per Ammunition Capacity Superior Anti-infantry Capabilities Superior Anti-Vehicle Capabilities Superior Movement Capabilities Superior TTK or Infantry with Handheld gun -HAND
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 880	Posted - 2014.07.29 04:04:00 - [182] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Listen. Guys. I understand. You two are really trying hard to help put this game on the right track. You've done a mostly good job at that. A few faults, that in standard CCP mantra you refuse to admit was a mistake, but the vast majority of what has been done was good. Now you're busy. We've all been there. You've got deadlines. You've been staying at work late. You're exhausted. You need just a small little pick-me-up to get you through the day. You drink your coffee, but that stopped helping weeks ago. The guys above you are experience the same thing, someone comes in with a solution. Just a small amount of coke, just a bump. That's the invigoration you need to get all this work done. But I think you two have had enough. Just look at yourselves. Increasing dropship HP? How much crack have you had? Because it has needed to be a Rockso amount to make these changes sound like a good idea. Give it a few days, sober up, and wise up. Dropships do not need more HP. If you want to equalize them then drop the HP on the ships. You're listening to these crybaby, insolent vehicle pilots again. Without Swarm Launcher, Plasma Cannon, and Forge Gun range increasing out to 500m those things are just gunboats floating in the air. Your uninformed opinion is discarded, you have not flown a python, or a ship, and you can't aim while being hit. I have flown a python, and even I don't get the ADS EHP buff. Crack reference may have gone too far though. Medium frame EHP is not medium
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 141	Posted - 2014.07.29 04:41:00 - [183] - Quote medomai grey wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Cass Caul wrote: Listen. Guys. I understand. You two are really trying hard to help put this game on the right track. You've done a mostly good job at that. A few faults, that in standard CCP mantra you refuse to admit was a mistake, but the vast majority of what has been done was good. Now you're busy. We've all been there. You've got deadlines. You've been staying at work late. You're exhausted. You need just a small little pick-me-up to get you through the day. You drink your coffee, but that stopped helping weeks ago. The guys above you are experience the same thing, someone comes in with a solution. Just a small amount of coke, just a bump. That's the invigoration you need to get all this work done. But I think you two have had enough. Just look at yourselves. Increasing dropship HP? How much crack have you had? Because it has needed to be a Rockso amount to make these changes sound like a good idea. Give it a few days, sober up, and wise up. Dropships do not need more HP. If you want to equalize them then drop the HP on the ships. You're listening to these crybaby, insolent vehicle pilots again. Without Swarm Launcher, Plasma Cannon, and Forge Gun range increasing out to 500m those things are just gunboats floating in the air. Your uninformed opinion is discarded, you have not flown a python, or a ship, and you can't aim while being hit. I have flown a python, and even I don't get the ADS EHP buff. Crack reference may have gone too far though. Whaat? Haven't you ever been instakilled because your 2550 hp wasn't enough? Or got 3 shotted? Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 141	Posted - 2014.07.29 04:41:00 - [184] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Infantry costs less, and is harder to get to than a big ass ship in the sky. Not after Hotfix Charlie reduces the ADS' price. Though ISK/AUR/SP/LP are not valid arguments when engaging in balance discussions. JRleo jr wrote: And a python should win 1v1 a infantry av from a realistic view. From a realistic view, a Python being hit from a single Swarm volley should be instantly killed without the ability to 'bail', and a Forge Gun (aka kinetic slug powered by a capacitor traveling at 1200m/s) should cause the Python to vaporize[/i] JRleo jr wrote: Big ship that has its main tank that resists the av people use, or an infantry with a handheld gun...really I always wondered... Your comparison is incomplete, it should be: Big ship with: Superior DPS Superior HP Superior Movement Speed Superior Evasion Capabilities Superior Ammunition Capacity Superior Kills per Ammunition Capacity Superior Anti-infantry Capabilities Superior Anti-Vehicle Capabilities Superior Movement Capabilities Superior TTK or Infantry with Handheld gun Yet an infantry forger will always win 1v1 assuming it's not mlt. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11037	Posted - 2014.07.29 04:46:00 - [185] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Yet an infantry forger will always win 1v1 assuming it's not mlt. If you get killed by AV, it's because you made the decision to remain in the area as opposed to evading. That is in no way a problem. -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 141	Posted - 2014.07.29 04:48:00 - [186] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Yet an infantry forger will always win 1v1 assuming it's not mlt. If you get killed by AV, it's because you made the decision to remain in the area as opposed to evading. That is in no way a problem. I'm saying a python can never win a 1v1, that's all, which is unbalanced. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Zindorak 1.U.P 190	Posted - 2014.07.29 05:17:00 - [187] - Quote man i can't wait to get dropship skill to lvl 3 now to get the python Master of the Scrambler Pistol. Carthum Assault ScP <3
medomai grey WarRavens Final Resolution. 881	Posted - 2014.07.29 05:18:00 - [188] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Whaat? Haven't you ever been instakilled because your 2550 hp wasn't enough? Or got 3 shotted? I've been instant killed by well coordinated players, damage focused red-line tanks equipped large rail turret, and downed in 3 shots. Still not a good reason to increase ADS health. ADS are one of the most mobile things a player can control in game. Able to engage and disengage at the pilot's discretion. Increasing the ADS's EHP while maintaining it's current mobility would increase ADS's survivability to ridiculous levels. This would not be fair to AV users whose goal is to protect their team and interests from us, ADS pilots. ADS must remain fragile, as they currently are. PS: You've never 1v1 a forge gunner before and won? Medium frame EHP is not medium
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 142	Posted - 2014.07.29 05:34:00 - [189] - Quote medomai grey wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Whaat? Haven't you ever been instakilled because your 2550 hp wasn't enough? Or got 3 shotted? I've been instant killed by well coordinated players, damage focused red-line tanks equipped large rail turret, and downed in 3 shots. Still not a good reason to increase ADS health. ADS are one of the most mobile things a player can control in game. Able to engage and disengage at the pilot's discretion. Increasing the ADS's EHP while maintaining it's current mobility would increase ADS's survivability to ridiculous levels. This would not be fair to AV users whose goal is to protect their team and interests from us, ADS pilots. ADS must remain fragile. as they currently are. PS: You've never 1v1 a forge gunner before and won? I have just it's not really possible when they have so much hp in say pc, and I drive away pythons and incubi in 1 shot from my forge, so...... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 349	Posted - 2014.07.29 07:23:00 - [190] - Quote If ADS were balanced based on PC they would never be destroyed in pub matches.

Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 370	Posted - 2014.07.29 07:32:00 - [191] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: medomai grey wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Whaat? Haven't you ever been instakilled because your 2550 hp wasn't enough? Or got 3 shotted? I've been instant killed by well coordinated players, damage focused red-line tanks equipped large rail turret, and downed in 3 shots. Still not a good reason to increase ADS health. ADS are one of the most mobile things a player can control in game. Able to engage and disengage at the pilot's discretion. Increasing the ADS's EHP while maintaining it's current mobility would increase ADS's survivability to ridiculous levels. This would not be fair to AV users whose goal is to protect their team and interests from us, ADS pilots. ADS must remain fragile. as they currently are. PS: You've never 1v1 a forge gunner before and won? I have just it's not really possible when they have so much hp in say pc, and I drive away pythons and incubi in 1 shot from my forge, so...... So....what? Because a weapon that is designed to destroy a vehicle works its OP? Sniper can down most medium frames in 2-3 hits is that OP?
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Final Resolution. 282	Posted - 2014.07.29 07:43:00 - [192] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Dont pay attention to protofits,if anything it shows a false view of air to air combat especialyy as it currently stands. if i encounter any Python with less than 3K shiels i will definitely engage in my Incubus and will most likley kill it if it doesn't run away especially with just an ADV turret. With the 600 more shields It wont be OP it will have a fighting chance. Can I bother you on a more detailed opinion on how to accomplish a 'true view' for air combat, so far I just try to be true to the stats shown in game, but maybe there's another way www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3166	Posted - 2014.07.29 11:54:00 - [193] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much. Observe the following fitting http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594 It has 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred) 1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Missile Turret It has 2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150) 950 Armour +24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance. - Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened. +102 HP/s regen built in + Faster Speed and Acceleration Now observe this one http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902 1x MLT Afterburner 1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper 1x STD 120mm Armour Plate 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Rail Turret It has 950 Shields 3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477) - No Hardener +112 Passive Regen - Slower than Python If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret. Dont pay attention to protofits,if anything it shows a false view of air to air combat especialyy as it currently stands. if i encounter any Python with less than 3K shiels i will definitely engage in my Incubus and will most likley kill it if it doesn't run away especially with just an ADV turret. With the 600 more shields It wont be OP it will have a fighting chance. For the reverse sake for armor ships any pilot who flys an incubus with under 3K hp is asking for death. As an incubus pilot i like the buff to the python it makes thing a bit more fair. and to respond to rattati sure the only difference to discern in tier is whether its assault (either tier 4 or proto prof.1 RR,SCR, or Cr) or semi auto (all possible tiers except the AR which would be either tier 2, 4 or proto and the HMG which would be either tier 4 or proto) But just with the muzzle flash you can tell what type it is, whether its more powerful vs sheilds or armor and therefore how to engage it. You can gauge danger in many ways dropship pilots cannot. When all you to go by when fighting another infantry player is the muzze flash you tend to become quite good at it and it becomes a very valubale piece of information. All pilots have to ID swarms is 1) missiles fired from a pixel 2) how many missiles are in the air before i'm going to be hit or 3) getting hit. No way to tell which suit or as in most cases which way the swarms are even coming from. even with forge gunners you can tell by how quickly blue lughts flash accross your feild of view as you spin and afterburn like mad trying to stay alive. So now our only way to ID any sort of swarmer is to get hit or see the pixel as he fires. This is imprtant to gauge whether or not we should engage the swarmer or keep away, becuase its 30% or our total knowledge base. On the other hand i aim a weapon at antoher infantry player and i can tell down to the effiency % or my weapon damaging them. Try dropshipping every day for a month, you soon realise how dangerous and difficult is to fly dropships and how much we rely upon so little infromation. Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise. You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle. From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot. 1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above 2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason. Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability. As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back. Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this. Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie) Armour: 950 This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile. 600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND 1) They are reducing the price 2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms 3) They are nerfing Swarms + Minmando It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3168	Posted - 2014.07.29 12:02:00 - [194] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Infantry costs less, and is harder to get to than a big ass ship in the sky. Not after Hotfix Charlie reduces the ADS' price. Though ISK/AUR/SP/LP are not valid arguments when engaging in balance discussions. JRleo jr wrote: And a python should win 1v1 a infantry av from a realistic view. From a realistic view, a Python being hit from a single Swarm volley should be instantly killed without the ability to 'bail', and a Forge Gun (aka kinetic slug powered by a capacitor traveling at 1200m/s) should cause the Python to vaporize[/i] JRleo jr wrote: Big ship that has its main tank that resists the av people use, or an infantry with a handheld gun...really I always wondered... Your comparison is incomplete, it should be: Big ship with: Superior DPS Superior HP Superior Movement Speed Superior Evasion Capabilities Superior Ammunition Capacity Superior Kills per Ammunition Capacity Superior Anti-infantry Capabilities Superior Anti-Vehicle Capabilities Superior Movement Capabilities Superior TTK or Infantry with Handheld gun Yet an infantry forger will always win 1v1 assuming it's not mlt. You clearly have alot to learn when if comes to piloting dropships. I can win a Gùå Forge 1v1 Gùå Swarmer 1v1 Gùå Plasma Cannon 16v1 I have even managed to pull a Swarm Launcher 5v1 before, you are a very fast very mobile dropship, stop hovering infront of a guy and expect him to just die. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3168	Posted - 2014.07.29 12:05:00 - [195] - Quote Stile451 wrote: If ADS were balanced based on PC they would never be destroyed in pub matches. Which is exactly why PC is a poor medium for balance. PC is simply spam of the most effecient gear, in order for it to be regular in PC it's got to be overpowered. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Thee Otherwon ARMYDOGS 0	Posted - 2014.07.29 15:10:00 - [196] - Quote How about making the swarms a breach variant, instead of forcing it down my throat.
danie sous DUST BRASIL S.A Dark Taboo 9	Posted - 2014.07.29 15:44:00 - [197] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: ... I am a deterrent. I am not a threat. - Swarmer, Proficiency 5 You cannot be detterent unless you are a threat to whatever it is you are detering. It's the fact you are a threat that deters them. A damn fine point, good sir. I concede. ~~I am a deterrent. I am not a threat.~~ I am sufficiently threatening to deter, though highly unlikely to kill. Exactly, which stems from the fact it takes 4 volleys from the a 3-round mag weapon to destroy most Dropships. They know you can't kill in one mag, but they also know if they don't leave soon they are gonna end up 6 feet under at rather high velocity of descent. They have to leave and they have the opportunity to do so. They are deterred. Not for long though. Lack of ammunition really makes it difficult to keep them at bay. Problem is that they regen faster then we can damage them (looks at ADSs with afterburners) . Increase EHP and lower regen abilities. Lowers chances of OHK any vehicle, makes weapons vital for deterring vehicles and deadly for bad pilots.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3172	Posted - 2014.07.29 17:03:00 - [198] - Quote danie sous wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey wrote: You cannot be detterent unless you are a threat to whatever it is you are detering. It's the fact you are a threat that deters them. A damn fine point, good sir. I concede. ~~I am a deterrent. I am not a threat.~~ I am sufficiently threatening to deter, though highly unlikely to kill. Exactly, which stems from the fact it takes 4 volleys from the a 3-round mag weapon to destroy most Dropships. They know you can't kill in one mag, but they also know if they don't leave soon they are gonna end up 6 feet under at rather high velocity of descent. They have to leave and they have the opportunity to do so. They are deterred. Not for long though. Lack of ammunition really makes it difficult to keep them at bay. Problem is that they regen faster then we can damage them (looks at ADSs with afterburners) . Increase EHP and lower regen abilities. Lowers chances of OHK any vehicle, makes weapons vital for deterring vehicles and deadly for bad pilots. If they are retreating with afterburners active then you have damaged them faster than they could regen. Your statement makes no sense. Vehicles aren't OHKillable (with exception to the LAV), unless of course your talking about teamwork in which case Gùå By definition that isn't a OHK Gùå It's Teamwork HTFU Weapons are already vital to deterring the enemy a swarm launcher, forge gun, rail turret, blaster turret will all cause a Dropship pilot to retreat almost instantly. While tanks will stay that little bit longer before bugging. The majority of quick solo kills are as a direct result of the pilot not knowing, or not deciding to pullmout at the correct time. Most other vehicle deaths comprise of teamwork, traps, or another vehicle. Vehicles in general are pretty damn balanced right now. Swarm launchers are recieving a max ammo buff, plus damage at STD, ADV levels, so that every AVer is threat. Futhermore the buff to turret installations will result in a greater state of Vehicle Superiority since vehicles will require assistance in order to encroach upon Enemy territory. Nothing more needs to change at this point in time, especially not giving Pythons a near 40% additional shield HP. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 143	Posted - 2014.07.29 17:33:00 - [199] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: JRleo jr wrote: medomai grey wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Whaat? Haven't you ever been instakilled because your 2550 hp wasn't enough? Or got 3 shotted? I've been instant killed by well coordinated players, damage focused red-line tanks equipped large rail turret, and downed in 3 shots. Still not a good reason to increase ADS health. ADS are one of the most mobile things a player can control in game. Able to engage and disengage at the pilot's discretion. Increasing the ADS's EHP while maintaining it's current mobility would increase ADS's survivability to ridiculous levels. This would not be fair to AV users whose goal is to protect their team and interests from us, ADS pilots. ADS must remain fragile. as they currently are. PS: You've never 1v1 a forge gunner before and won? I have just it's not really possible when they have so much hp in say pc, and I drive away pythons and incubi in 1 shot from my forge, so...... So....what? Because a weapon that is designed to destroy a vehicle works its OP? Sniper can down most medium frames in 2-3 hits is that OP? That's harder to hi infantry than a big ship in the sky Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 143	Posted - 2014.07.29 17:35:00 - [200] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Infantry costs less, and is harder to get to than a big ass ship in the sky. Not after Hotfix Charlie reduces the ADS' price. Though ISK/AUR/SP/LP are not valid arguments when engaging in balance discussions. JRleo jr wrote: And a python should win 1v1 a infantry av from a realistic view. From a realistic view, a Python being hit from a single Swarm volley should be instantly killed without the ability to 'bail', and a Forge Gun (aka kinetic slug powered by a capacitor traveling at 1200m/s) should cause the Python to vaporize[/i] JRleo jr wrote: Big ship that has its main tank that resists the av people use, or an infantry with a handheld gun...really I always wondered... Your comparison is incomplete, it should be: Big ship with: Superior DPS Superior HP Superior Movement Speed Superior Evasion Capabilities Superior Ammunition Capacity Superior Kills per Ammunition Capacity Superior Anti-infantry Capabilities Superior Anti-Vehicle Capabilities Superior Movement Capabilities Superior TTK or Infantry with Handheld gun Yet an infantry forger will always win 1v1 assuming it's not mlt. You clearly have alot to learn when if comes to piloting dropships. I can win a Gùå Forge 1v1 Gùå Swarmer 1v1 Gùå Plasma Cannon 16v1 I have even managed to pull a Swarm Launcher 5v1 before, you are a very fast very mobile dropship, stop hovering infront of a guy and expect him to just die. [/quote] Ah, the noobs who can't read or understand anything and assume... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.

JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 143	Posted - 2014.07.29 17:36:00 - [201] - Quote Stile451 wrote: If ADS were balanced based on PC they would never be destroyed in pub matches. 1. Who cares about pubs 2. That just means they are underpowered in an competitive environment then, which it shouldn't be, it shoukd kinda be balanced around people who have an iq over 2. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11055	Posted - 2014.07.29 17:39:00 - [202] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Stile451 wrote: If ADS were balanced based on PC they would never be destroyed in pub matches. 1. Who cares about pubs 2. That just means they are underpowered in an competitive environment then, which it shouldn't be, it shoukd kinda be balanced around people who have an iq over 2. 1.) 99% of the DUST 514 community. 2.) Balance in general implies efficiency at a 1:1 ratio, which is indeed possible in both game-modes. -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 143	Posted - 2014.07.29 17:44:00 - [203] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Stile451 wrote: If ADS were balanced based on PC they would never be destroyed in pub matches. 1. Who cares about pubs 2. That just means they are underpowered in an competitive environment then, which it shouldn't be, it shoukd kinda be balanced around people who have an iq over 2. 1.) 99% of the DUST 514 community. 2.) Balance in general implies efficiency at a 1:1 ratio, which is indeed possible in both game-modes. If that's the case, why does every python I face with my forge never win? It's more like a 0.7:1 or so ratio. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11055	Posted - 2014.07.29 17:48:00 - [204] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: If that's the case, why does every python I face with my forge never win? This is anecdotal, and obviously fabricated. But if I had to guess, it's because they're terrible pilots. -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 143	Posted - 2014.07.29 17:50:00 - [205] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: If that's the case, why does every python I face with my forge never win? This is anecdotal, and obviously fabricated. But if I had to guess, it's because they're terrible pilots. 99% of enemy pythons will never 1v1 me, I either 3 shot them, they flee, or get knocked around and can't kill me. It isn't balanced at all... And I've destroyed pythons using an afterburner doing some twisting, I guess I'm good with a forge... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3356	Posted - 2014.07.29 17:56:00 - [206] - Quote Atiim wrote: Since there hasn't been any statement regarding this, may we know the rationale behind the Dropship Buff-¦ and SL nerf? ^ This. I can understand how a drop in ADS price is warranted. They're too expensive; most agree on this point. But what is the rationale/narrative behind the ADS buff and Swarm nerf? What is our goal here? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3358	Posted - 2014.07.29 18:01:00 - [207] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: If that's the case, why does every python I face with my forge never win? If Forge Guns are the big threat, why are we discussing Swarm nerfs? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 143	Posted - 2014.07.29 18:03:00 - [208] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: If that's the case, why does every python I face with my forge never win? If Forge Guns are the big threat, why are we discussing Swarm nerfs? Only proto is getting nerfed, slightly. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3360	Posted - 2014.07.29 19:15:00 - [209] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: If that's the case, why does every python I face with my forge never win? If Forge Guns are the big threat, why are we discussing Swarm nerfs? Only proto is getting nerfed, slightly. Did you see the "Destructive Data Mining" results? Why nerf Proto Swarms if they aren't over performing? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 143	Posted - 2014.07.29 19:28:00 - [210] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: If that's the case, why does every python I face with my forge never win? If Forge Guns are the big threat, why are we discussing Swarm nerfs? Only proto is getting nerfed, slightly. Did you see the "Destructive Data Mining" results? What does that tell you about the need to nerf Swarms. We should be discussing reasonable ways to make them better. Not worse. I see you go off people using them. I barely see any vehicles anymore. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3360	Posted - 2014.07.29 19:30:00 - [211] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: I see you go off people using them. I very, very rarely use mine. - Proficiency 5 Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 187	Posted - 2014.07.29 19:42:00 - [212] - Quote hmm. i will notify my corp... Dust servers will be a ghost town on 09/09/14 Destiny kicks ass... Like Halo knocked up Mass Effect and gave birth
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 143	Posted - 2014.07.29 19:46:00 - [213] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: I see you go off people using them. I very, very rarely use mine. - Proficiency 5 Use a scout? Damage mods and cloak+nano=pwnage. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3363	Posted - 2014.07.29 20:18:00 - [214] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: I see you go off people using them. I very, very rarely use mine. - Proficiency 5 Use a scout? Damage mods and cloak+nano=pwnage. 1. Yes. Gal and Cal. 2. Good for popping militia vehicles; need REs or a partner for non-militia HAV; need 1-2 partners to pop ADS. Assumes competitive vehicle loadout and a semi-conscious pilot. 3. Define "pwnage" and how it relates to swarms vs ADS. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 143	Posted - 2014.07.29 20:22:00 - [215] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: I see you go off people using them. I very, very rarely use mine. - Proficiency 5 Use a scout? Damage mods and cloak+nano=pwnage. 1. Yes. Gal and Cal. 2. Good for popping militia vehicles; need REs or a partner for non-militia HAV; need 1-2 partners to pop ADS. Assumes semi-conscious pilot. 3. Define pwnage and how it relates to swarms vs ADS. They stay, they die, or they have to flee because of the power and loss of the ability to aim. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3363	Posted - 2014.07.29 20:37:00 - [216] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 3. Define pwnage and how it relates to swarms vs ADS. They stay, they die, or they have to flee because of the power and loss of the ability to aim. Yes. My experience has been the same, though 9.5/10 times they readily escape. That's not what I understood "pwnage" to mean, but I'll take it. I suspect that such "pwnage" falls short of necessitating a nerf. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 143	Posted - 2014.07.29 20:55:00 - [217] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 3. Define pwnage and how it relates to swarms vs ADS. They stay, they die, or they have to flee because of the power and loss of the ability to aim. Yes. My experience has been the same, though 9.5/10 times they readily escape. That's not what I understood "pwnage" to mean, but I'll take it. I suspect that such "pwnage" falls short of necessitating a nerf. Oh relax, it's just proto and it's a lockon weapon... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3364	Posted - 2014.07.29 21:41:00 - [218] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 3. Define pwnage and how it relates to swarms vs ADS. They stay, they die, or they have to flee because of the power and loss of the ability to aim. Yes. My experience has been the same, though 9.5/10 times they readily escape. That's not what I understood "pwnage" to mean, but I'll take it. I suspect that such "pwnage" falls short of necessitating a nerf. Oh relax, it's just proto and it's a lockon weapon... Nice narrative. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 145	Posted - 2014.07.29 23:00:00 - [219] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Oh relax, it's just proto and it's a lockon weapon... Nice narrative. Anyone care to add to this? Experience tells us that swarms are crap. The "Expert Challenge" tells us that swarms are crap. Usage statistics likely tell us that swarms are crap. Let's make swarms less crappy. Let's start by notnerfing them. No vehicles are there to kill. Swarms shouldn't be that powerful in the first place. Imagine if we had a locking forge... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3386	Posted - 2014.07.30 01:21:00 - [220] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Imagine if we had a locking forge... Imagine if we had your momma... Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Tesfa Alem Until thee End 176	Posted - 2014.07.30 01:24:00 - [221] - Quote Cyrus Grevare wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Dont pay attention to protofits,if anything it shows a false view of air to air combat especialyy as it currently stands. if i encounter any Python with less than 3K shiels i will definitely engage in my Incubus and will most likley kill it if it doesn't run away especially with just an ADV turret. With the 600 more shields It wont be OP it will have a fighting chance. Can I bother you on a more detailed opinion on how to accomplish a 'true view' for air combat, so far I just try to be true to the stats shown in game, but maybe there's another way You make it sound like I'm trying to show things with an agenda. Best thing to do would be to strap yourself in an incubus with a rail turret and go hunting. With adv rails and incubus level three i can take out Vipers in one pass, myrons without having to reload and if i get the drop on a python i can usually take it down to armor before he starts to panic and run. It has zero to do with the kind of turret the python pilot is running, i fly a ship speciffically to kill other (specifficaly shield tanked) ships. Yes the python can dance but the incubs can as well, i have had little issue keeping up with pythons as these maps are incredibly small for flying in the first place. The harsh truth of it is all ADS will fit an afterburner on becuase our first course of action when engaged by AV or other vehicles is to get out of harms way. Pythons have to sacrifice alot of HP where the incubs does not. So giving them the equivalent of a shield extender is adding balance, not making them OP. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Until thee End 176	Posted - 2014.07.30 01:44:00 - [222] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: [ Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise. You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle. From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot. 1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above 2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason. Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability. As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back. Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this. Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie) Armour: 950 This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile. 600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND 1) They are reducing the price 2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms 3) They are nerfing Swarms + Minmando It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them. DISCLAIMER: Everything i say is anecdotal and was from my own personal experience. As far as i know any experienced pilot throws on an afterburner but lets say i do have a dogfight with python fit you just listed. Say he gets the drop on me, i burn away and he cant catch me, i have the power now to engage him at will hardener or not i can wait untill he's hardener is on cooldown out of range of his missiles. If he has no afterbuner he will never be faster than me and even if he lands a lot of rounds i can easily escape to regen. Might as well be a giant harderned LAV up there if he has no burner on in a dogfight. You can't kill what you can't catch. 300 more tank isnt too much given that one rail gun round does about 400. All in all really we are talking about raising the python in terms of hp into a little bit under a sica. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12354	Posted - 2014.07.30 01:52:00 - [223] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: [ Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise. You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle. From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot. 1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above 2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason. Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability. As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back. Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this. Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie) Armour: 950 This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile. 600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND 1) They are reducing the price 2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms 3) They are nerfing Swarms + Minmando It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them. Oh wow..... ADSers campaigned this hard to build Skytanks..... Quite frankly I found ADS to be fairly balanced. They'd wreck my vehicles with impunity, and annihilate infantry with the same build. But now with increased EHP....... good lord. The ADSpocalypse has begun. Hail Judge the first of the 4 Droppshippers of the End Times! "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 147	Posted - 2014.07.30 01:58:00 - [224] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: [ Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise. You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle. From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot. 1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above 2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason. Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability. As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back. Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this. Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie) Armour: 950 This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile. 600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND 1) They are reducing the price 2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms 3) They are nerfing Swarms + Minmando It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them. Oh wow..... ADSers campaigned this hard to build Skytanks..... Quite frankly I found ADS to be fairly balanced. They'd wreck my vehicles with impunity, and annihilate infantry with the same build. But now with increased EHP....... good lord. The ADSpocalypse has begun. Hail Judge the first of the 4 Droppshippers of the End Times! My python has 2555 shields and forges completely destroy them. Swarms do good damage to pythons even at adv. Python has needed some slrt of hp buff for a long time. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 374	Posted - 2014.07.30 02:09:00 - [225] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: JRleo jr wrote: medomai grey wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Whaat? Haven't you ever been instakilled because your 2550 hp wasn't enough? Or got 3 shotted? I've been instant killed by well coordinated players, damage focused red-line tanks equipped large rail turret, and downed in 3 shots. Still not a good reason to increase ADS health. ADS are one of the most mobile things a player can control in game. Able to engage and disengage at the pilot's discretion. Increasing the ADS's EHP while maintaining it's current mobility would increase ADS's survivability to ridiculous levels. This would not be fair to AV users whose goal is to protect their team and interests from us, ADS pilots. ADS must remain fragile. as they currently are. PS: You've never 1v1 a forge gunner before and won? I have just it's not really possible when they have so much hp in say pc, and I drive away pythons and incubi in 1 shot from my forge, so...... So....what? Because a weapon that is designed to destroy a vehicle works its OP? Sniper can down most medium frames in 2-3 hits is that OP? That's harder to hi infantry than a big ship in the sky Regardless of how difficult it is, its the same principle. You cannot complain a weapon that is designed to kill you works just because its 'difficult' have you ever tried to hit a DS with swarms that has pilot that knows what they are doing? Its hard becuase that 3rd volley isn't going to hit it.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 148	Posted - 2014.07.30 02:10:00 - [226] - Quote edomai grey wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: JRleo jr wrote: medomai grey wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Whaat? Haven't you ever been instakilled because your 2550 hp wasn't enough? Or got 3 shotted? I have just it's not really possible when they have so much hp in say pc, and I drive away pythons and incubi in 1 shot from my forge, so...... So....what? Because a weapon that is designed to destroy a vehicle works its OP? Sniper can down most medium frames in 2-3 hits is that OP? That's harder to hi infantry than a big ship in the sky Regardless of how difficult it is, its the same principle. You cannot complain a weapon that is designed to kill you works just because its 'difficult' have you ever tried to hit a DS with swarms that has pilot that knows what they are doing? Its hard becuase that 3rd volley isn't going to hit it. Because he was forced to run away...just because they run doesn't mean it's underpowered... Eh, whatever stupid quote system... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 374	Posted - 2014.07.30 02:16:00 - [227] - Quote I m not saying its under powered, im saying the balance is fine. Try using a hardener on that python and see how much punishment you can take from swarms. 5-6 volleys and you can still just fly off. It doesnt insta kill you, and you have plenty of time to fly off behind a building to recover. I want to know why you think swarms are OP, because they really aren't.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 148	Posted - 2014.07.30 02:18:00 - [228] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: I m not saying its under powered, im saying the balance is fine. Try using a hardener on that python and see how much punishment you can take from swarms. 5-6 volleys and you can still just fly off. It doesnt insta kill you, and you have plenty of time to fly off behind a building to recover. I want to know why you think swarms are OP, because they really aren't. you think I believe swarms are op? Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
emm kay New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 155	Posted - 2014.07.30 02:19:00 - [229] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. w00t w00t 600 more python HP to work with! ( seriously though this will be not affect dropship warfare whatsoever) what WILL affect dropship warfare: make the dropship scanner not discriminate in the Y range (give it scans from infinite height) and nerf the forge gun and the afterburner. -- You called, sir?
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 148	Posted - 2014.07.30 02:21:00 - [230] - Quote emm kay wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. w00t w00t 600 more python HP to work with! ( seriously though this will be not affect dropship warfare whatsoever) what WILL affect dropship warfare: make the dropship scanner not discriminate in the Y range (give it scans from infinite height) and nerf the forge gun and the afterburner. Erm, what? Nerf the forge? But WHAT ABOUT THE QQ! Think of the qq man... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3177	Posted - 2014.07.30 02:48:00 - [231] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Atiim wrote: Your comparison is incomplete, it should be: Big ship with: Superior DPS Superior HP Superior Movement Speed Superior Evasion Capabilities Superior Ammunition Capacity Superior Kills per Ammunition Capacity Superior Anti-infantry Capabilities Superior Anti-Vehicle Capabilities Superior Movement Capabilities Superior TTK or Infantry with Handheld gun Yet an infantry forger will always win 1v1 assuming it's not mlt. You clearly have alot to learn when if comes to piloting dropships. I can win a Gùå Forge 1v1 [ADV regularly, even Proto if Terrain allows] Gùå Swarmer 1v1 [ADV regularly, rarely Proto] Gùå Plasma Cannon 16v1 [Proto] I have even managed to pull a Swarm Launcher 5v1 before, you are a very fast very mobile dropship, stop hovering infront of a guy and expect him to just die. Ah, the noobs who can't read or understand anything and assume... Aah sorry shall I uhh make it clearer? They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 148	Posted - 2014.07.30 02:52:00 - [232] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Atiim wrote: Your comparison is incomplete, it should be: Big ship with: Superior DPS Superior HP Superior Movement Speed Superior Evasion Capabilities Superior Ammunition Capacity Superior Kills per Ammunition Capacity Superior Anti-infantry Capabilities Superior Anti-Vehicle Capabilities Superior Movement Capabilities Superior TTK or Infantry with Handheld gun Yet an infantry forger will always win 1v1 assuming it's not mlt. You clearly have alot to learn when if comes to piloting dropships. I can win a Gùå Forge 1v1 [ADV regularly, even Proto if Terrain allows] Gùå Swarmer 1v1 [ADV regularly, rarely Proto] Gùå Plasma Cannon 16v1 [Proto] I have even managed to pull a Swarm Launcher 5v1 before, you are a very fast very mobile dropship, stop hovering infront of a guy and expect him to just die. Ah, the noobs who can't read or understand anything and assume... Aah sorry shall I uhh make it clearer? In my experience, I win or make pythons flee 99% of the time. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3177	Posted - 2014.07.30 02:53:00 - [233] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: [ Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise. You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle. From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot. 1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above 2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason. Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability. As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back. Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this. Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie) Armour: 950 This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile. 600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND 1) They are reducing the price 2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms 3) They are nerfing Swarms + Minmando It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them. Oh wow..... ADSers campaigned this hard to build Skytanks..... Quite frankly I found ADS to be fairly balanced. They'd wreck my vehicles with impunity, and annihilate infantry with the same build. But now with increased EHP....... good lord. The ADSpocalypse has begun. Hail Judge the first of the 4 Droppshippers of the End Times! Well when it happens, I'm just gonna be the hobo in the corner going Repent, I said, Repent. But did they Repent? Oh no! And now look! Friggin Armageadon! I told you I friggin told you! They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
mollerz 4468	Posted - 2014.07.30 02:58:00 - [234] - Quote it's impossible to kill ADS. I was on a ***** blaster turret, point blank basically shooting this ADS, and he didn't even bother to fly off. I'd have no way to get into his armor without over heating, and once I scratched him it would heal up and his shield would come back. He just sat there shooting infantry and ignored me. a blaster turret laying into him. Then his buddy came over and I thought.. hey maybe I can get this guy. NOPE. I have a dren a-1 with a basic forge and a complex dam mod. Can;t even touch the things. At most I'll take half a shield away and they hover away and heal up no problem. After that I just figured ** those things. ignore them and run away. There's no way those things need a buff. Dingle Dust Berry.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12356	Posted - 2014.07.30 02:59:00 - [235] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: True Adamance wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: [ Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise. You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle. From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot. 1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above 2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason. Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability. As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back. Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this. Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie) Armour: 950 This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile. 600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND 1) They are reducing the price 2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms by a tiny amount 3) They are buffing std and adv Swarms + nerfing Minmando with swarms It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them. Oh wow..... ADSers campaigned this hard to build Skytanks..... Quite frankly I found ADS to be fairly balanced. They'd wreck my vehicles with impunity, and annihilate infantry with the same build. But now with increased EHP....... good lord. The ADSpocalypse has begun. Hail Judge the first of the 4 Droppshippers of the End Times! My python has 2555 shields and forges completely destroy them. Swarms do good damage to pythons even at adv. Python has needed some sort of hp buff for a long time. Incubus needs more pg to fit a non pathetic rep with non pathetic hp, before we could have 100 reps now it's...tiny. And it is impossible for pythons to destroy good incubus pilots. It's impossible for me to destroy either as well. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3177	Posted - 2014.07.30 03:01:00 - [236] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Yet an infantry forger will always win 1v1 assuming it's not mlt. You clearly have alot to learn when if comes to piloting dropships. I can win a Gùå Forge 1v1 [ADV regularly, even Proto if Terrain allows] Gùå Swarmer 1v1 [ADV regularly, rarely Proto] Gùå Plasma Cannon 16v1 [Proto] I have even managed to pull a Swarm Launcher 5v1 before, you are a very fast very mobile dropship, stop hovering infront of a guy and expect him to just die. Ah, the noobs who can't read or understand anything and assume... Aah sorry shall I uhh make it clearer? In my experience, I win or make pythons flee 99% of the time. Congratulations, you got the circumstantial evidence award. Circumstantial Evidence: indirect evidence (evidence providing only a basis for inference about the fact in dispute) So now allow me to make my own circumstantial evidence. In my experience I kill the AVer 99.5% of the time. Your point is now moot. If you wish to provide more than conjecture and crying please use the maths. It's available for a reason. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3177	Posted - 2014.07.30 03:20:00 - [237] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: [ Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise. You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle. From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot. 1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above 2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason. Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability. As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back. Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this. Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie) Armour: 950 This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile. 600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND 1) They are reducing the price 2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms 3) They are nerfing Swarms + Minmando It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them. DISCLAIMER: Everything i say is anecdotal and was from my own personal experience. As far as i know any experienced pilot throws on an afterburner but lets say i do have a dogfight with python fit you just listed. Say he gets the drop on me, i burn away and he cant catch me, i have the power now to engage him at will hardener or not i can wait untill he's hardener is on cooldown out of range of his missiles. If he has no afterbuner he will never be faster than me and even if he lands a lot of rounds i can easily escape to regen. Might as well be a giant harderned LAV up there if he has no burner on in a dogfight. You can't kill what you can't catch. 300 more tank isnt too much given that one rail gun round does about 400. All in all really we are talking about raising the python in terms of hp into a little bit under a sica. If you can retreat so can he. Let's assume you both achieve 60% accuracy. You flee at 30% eHP, he flees at 20% shields. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a afterburner because everytime you flee he will simply rep back his health too. The fact you are putting an ADS and a tank in the same sentence is the whole point! It's not meant to have the tanking ability of a tank. Further more its unfair to do this to the Python with out giving the Incubus just undrr the base health of the Madrugar. Or does giving the Incubus the survivability of a tank seem out of place to you? They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 148	Posted - 2014.07.30 03:32:00 - [238] - Quote True Adamance wrote: JRleo jr wrote: True Adamance wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: [ Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise. You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle. From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot. 1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above 2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason. Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability. As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back. Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this. Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie) Armour: 950 This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile. 600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND 1) They are reducing the price 2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms by a tiny amount 3) They are buffing std and adv Swarms + nerfing Minmando with swarms It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them. Oh wow..... ADSers campaigned this hard to build Skytanks..... Quite frankly I found ADS to be fairly balanced. They'd wreck my vehicles with impunity, and annihilate infantry with the same build. But now with increased EHP....... good lord. The ADSpocalypse has begun. Hail Judge the first of the 4 Droppshippers of the End Times! My python has 2555 shields and forges completely destroy them. Swarms do good damage to pythons even at adv. Python has needed some sort of hp buff for a long time. Incubus needs more pg to fit a non pathetic rep with non pathetic hp, before we could have 100 reps now it's...tiny. And it is impossible for pythons to destroy good incubus pilots. It's impossible for me to destroy either as well. Get good??? Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 148	Posted - 2014.07.30 03:34:00 - [239] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Yet an infantry forger will always win 1v1 assuming it's not mlt. Ah, the noobs who can't read or understand anything and assume... Aah sorry shall I uhh make it clearer? In my experience, I win or make pythons flee 99% of the time. Congratulations, you got the circumstantial evidence award. Circumstantial Evidence: indirect evidence (evidence providing only a basis for inference about the fact in dispute) So now allow me to make my own circumstantial evidence. In my experience I kill the AVer 99.5% of the time. Your point is now moot. If you wish to provide more than conjecture and crying please use the maths. It's available for a reason. No one is crying here, exept the AV's who want to solo everything in a heartbeat apparently. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12362	Posted - 2014.07.30 03:40:00 - [240] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: True Adamance wrote: JRleo jr wrote: True Adamance wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: [ Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise. You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle. From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot. 1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above 2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason. Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability. As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back. Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this. Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie) Armour: 950 This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile. 600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND 1) They are reducing the price 2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms by a tiny amount 3) They are buffing std and adv Swarms + nerfing Minmando with swarms It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them. Oh wow..... ADSers campaigned this hard to build Skytanks..... Quite frankly I found ADS to be fairly balanced. They'd wreck my vehicles with impunity, and annihilate infantry with the same build. But now with increased EHP....... good lord. The ADSpocalypse has begun. Hail Judge the first of the 4 Droppshippers of the End Times! My python has 2555 shields and forges completely destroy them. Swarms do good damage to pythons even at adv. Python has needed some sort of hp buff for a long time. Incubus needs more pg to fit a non pathetic rep with non pathetic hp, before we could have 100 reps now it's...tiny. And it is impossible for pythons to destroy good incubus pilots. It's impossible for me to destroy either as well. Get good??? If I had an Amarrian HAV..... "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon

mollerz 4472	Posted - 2014.07.30 03:42:00 - [241] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Get good??? Get real? the problem is the game math won't let you be gud. But you DGAF. So while you cling to your unrealistic position, I hope you get run over with nerf wagon because you didn't take the time to think about a real game positive solution. Dingle Dust Berry.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 148	Posted - 2014.07.30 03:54:00 - [242] - Quote mollerz wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Get good??? Get real? the problem is the game math won't let you be gud. But you DGAF. So while you cling to your unrealistic position, I hope you get run over with nerf wagon because you didn't take the time to think about a real game positive solution. What's thier to think about? Proto swarms won't completely leave a python unable to aim or survive much because fewer missiles, and the incubus, well I haven't used one in ages so I don't know how much faster they get pwnd...and then thier is a buff to std and adv. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
mollerz 4479	Posted - 2014.07.30 04:23:00 - [243] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: mollerz wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Get good??? Get real? the problem is the game math won't let you be gud. But you DGAF. So while you cling to your unrealistic position, I hope you get run over with nerf wagon because you didn't take the time to think about a real game positive solution. What's thier to think about? Proto swarms won't completely leave a python unable to aim or survive much because fewer missiles, and the incubus, well I haven't used one in ages so I don't know how much faster they get pwnd...and then thier is a buff to std and adv. Sorry! I just saw their and their where it should have been there and there. Can you please try again? Dingle Dust Berry.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3398	Posted - 2014.07.30 04:29:00 - [244] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: No one is crying here, exept the AV's who want to solo everything in a heartbeat apparently. You're doing an excellent job speaking on behalf of Dropship pilots. Please, keep up the good work. Judge Rhad - Get this man a medal. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 148	Posted - 2014.07.30 04:39:00 - [245] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: No one is crying here, exept the AV's who want to solo everything in a heartbeat apparently. You're doing an excellent job speaking on behalf of Dropship pilots. Please, keep up the good work. Judge Rhad - Get this man a medal. Ok look at it this way....full tanking fits on the python won't be mandatory to survive decently. And of course adv and std swarms are getting a much needed buff... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Final Resolution. 285	Posted - 2014.07.30 07:31:00 - [246] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Cyrus Grevare wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Dont pay attention to protofits,if anything it shows a false view of air to air combat especialyy as it currently stands. Can I bother you on a more detailed opinion on how to accomplish a 'true view' for air combat, so far I just try to be true to the stats shown in game, but maybe there's another way You make it sound like I'm trying to show things with an agenda. Best thing to do would be to strap yourself in an incubus with a rail turret and go hunting. With adv rails and incubus level three i can take out Vipers in one pass, myrons without having to reload and if i get the drop on a python i can usually take it down to armor before he starts to panic and run. It has zero to do with the kind of turret the python pilot is running, i fly a ship speciffically to kill other (specifficaly shield tanked) ships. Yes the python can dance but the incubs can as well, i have had little issue keeping up with pythons as these maps are incredibly small for flying in the first place. The harsh truth of it is all ADS will fit an afterburner on becuase our first course of action when engaged by AV or other vehicles is to get out of harms way. Pythons have to sacrifice alot of HP where the incubs does not. So giving them the equivalent of a shield extender is adding balance, not making them OP. I don't think that would reveal any other stat or calculation for me to try and implement on protofits, battle tactics, player behavior or item balance are not things I claim to have in site, just raw stats and calculations shown in Dust514 (on rare occasions my best guess) I'll just withdraw from this personal debate now www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3181	Posted - 2014.07.30 09:26:00 - [247] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: No one is crying here, exept the AV's who want to solo everything in a heartbeat apparently. You're doing an excellent job speaking on behalf of Dropship pilots. Please, keep up the good work. Judge Rhad - Get this man a medal. Ok look at it this way....full tanking fits on the python won't be mandatory to survive decently. And of course adv and std swarms are getting a much needed buff... How about a 40m lock on range buff? Or something? So full tanking fits won't be necessary on a python. Yet they will still be necessary on an Incubus? Fantastic. And PRO is getting nerfed, which when combined with a nearly 40% ehp boost, is going to be overpowered. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3181	Posted - 2014.07.30 09:35:00 - [248] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Cyrus Grevare wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Dont pay attention to protofits,if anything it shows a false view of air to air combat especialyy as it currently stands. if i encounter any Python with less than 3K shiels i will definitely engage in my Incubus and will most likley kill it if it doesn't run away especially with just an ADV turret. With the 600 more shields It wont be OP it will have a fighting chance. Can I bother you on a more detailed opinion on how to accomplish a 'true view' for air combat, so far I just try to be true to the stats shown in game, but maybe there's another way You make it sound like I'm trying to show things with an agenda. Best thing to do would be to strap yourself in an incubus with a rail turret and go hunting. With adv rails and incubus level three i can take out Vipers in one pass, myrons without having to reload and if i get the drop on a python i can usually take it down to armor before he starts to panic and run. It has zero to do with the kind of turret the python pilot is running, i fly a ship speciffically to kill other (specifficaly shield tanked) ships. Yes the python can dance but the incubs can as well, i have had little issue keeping up with pythons as these maps are incredibly small for flying in the first place. The harsh truth of it is all ADS will fit an afterburner on becuase our first course of action when engaged by AV or other vehicles is to get out of harms way. Pythons have to sacrifice alot of HP where the incubs does not. So giving them the equivalent of a shield extender is adding balance, not making them OP. So giving a Shield based dropship an EHP similar to an Armour based dropship. Then giving Gùå Passive BUILT-IN Regen Gùå Greater Speed/Acceleration/Manoeuvrability Gùå Better Damage/Resistance profile Gùå Greater Variety of Fitings. This is the problem with a lot of people on the forums, your personal experience counts for nought. Sure you might think Pythons are easy to kill right now, but there will be just as many people who have the opposite opinion. Use the numbers, if the Python were underpowered, the numbers would show it. They do not. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3181	Posted - 2014.07.30 09:40:00 - [249] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Ah, the noobs who can't read or understand anything and assume... Aah sorry shall I uhh make it clearer? In my experience, I win or make pythons flee 99% of the time. Congratulations, you got the circumstantial evidence award. Circumstantial Evidence: indirect evidence (evidence providing only a basis for inference about the fact in dispute) So now allow me to make my own circumstantial evidence. In my experience I kill the AVer 99.5% of the time. Your point is now moot. If you wish to provide more than conjecture and crying please use the maths. It's available for a reason. No one is crying here, exept the AV's who want to solo everything in a heartbeat apparently. No yet your sit here complaining and whining, without using imperical mathematical evidence to prove your opinion. Your stating an opinion, then using the opinion as argument for your opinion. AV is quite happy with Dropship balance against them as it is right now. We aren't even all that bothered by the nerf at Proto Level, but 600 extra shields is too much and we have the maths to back it up. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 148	Posted - 2014.07.30 10:31:00 - [250] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Ah, the noobs who can't read or understand anything and assume... In my experience, I win or make pythons flee 99% of the time. Congratulations, you got the circumstantial evidence award. Circumstantial Evidence: indirect evidence (evidence providing only a basis for inference about the fact in dispute) So now allow me to make my own circumstantial evidence. In my experience I kill the AVer 99.5% of the time. Your point is now moot. If you wish to provide more than conjecture and crying please use the maths. It's available for a reason. No one is crying here, exept the AV's who want to solo everything in a heartbeat apparently. No yet your sit here complaining and whining, without using imperical mathematical evidence to prove your opinion. Your stating an opinion, then using the opinion as argument for your opinion. AV is quite happy with Dropship balance against them as it is right now. We aren't even all that bothered by the nerf at Proto Level, but 600 extra shields is too much and we have the maths to back it up. No, it's fine. Go use a python vs non mlt team, see how quickly your hp drops before you try to run, see how much hp % is dropped when you are hardened, for 30 seconds with a long cooldown...seriously I've played all day jsing a python, many time I'd get into armor right when I'm fleeing, stupid forgers...killed some of them but still...and I spent a while waiting for my hardener and booster to try to kill forgers again... Haven't used a proper incubus in awhile so idk.... In order to get any regen I had to have 2.4k armor, and I use hardeners, or used to get good regen with 2.8k hp...do you know how fast it could die? Pretty fast if I recall correctly. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.

JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 148	Posted - 2014.07.30 10:33:00 - [251] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Cyrus Grevare wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Dont pay attention to protofits,if anything it shows a false view of air to air combat especialyy as it currently stands. if i encounter any Python with less than 3K shiels i will definitely engage in my Incubus and will most likley kill it if it doesn't run away especially with just an ADV turret. With the 600 more shields It wont be OP it will have a fighting chance. Can I bother you on a more detailed opinion on how to accomplish a 'true view' for air combat, so far I just try to be true to the stats shown in game, but maybe there's another way You make it sound like I'm trying to show things with an agenda. Best thing to do would be to strap yourself in an incubus with a rail turret and go hunting. With adv rails and incubus level three i can take out Vipers in one pass, myrons without having to reload and if i get the drop on a python i can usually take it down to armor before he starts to panic and run. It has zero to do with the kind of turret the python pilot is running, i fly a ship speciffically to kill other (specifficaly shield tanked) ships. Yes the python can dance but the incubs can as well, i have had little issue keeping up with pythons as these maps are incredibly small for flying in the first place. The harsh truth of it is all ADS will fit an afterburner on becuase our first course of action when engaged by AV or other vehicles is to get out of harms way. Pythons have to sacrifice alot of HP where the incubs does not. So giving them the equivalent of a shield extender is adding balance, not making them OP. So giving a Shield based dropship an EHP similar to an Armour based dropship. Then giving Gùå Passive BUILT-IN Regen Gùå Greater Speed/Acceleration/Manoeuvrability? But floats randomly and is annoying to get to stay still enough Gùå Better Damage/Resistance profile, eh This is the problem with a lot of people on the forums, your personal experience counts for nought. Sure you might think Pythons are easy to kill right now, but there will be just as many people who have the opposite opinion. Use the numbers, if the Python were underpowered, the numbers would show it. They do not. I fixed it for you, to what it actually is. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 148	Posted - 2014.07.30 10:37:00 - [252] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: JRleo jr wrote: No one is crying here, exept the AV's who want to solo everything in a heartbeat apparently. You're doing an excellent job speaking on behalf of Dropship pilots. Please, keep up the good work. Judge Rhad - Get this man a medal. Ok look at it this way....full tanking fits on the python won't be mandatory to survive decently. And of course adv and std swarms are getting a much needed buff... How about a 40m lock on range buff? Or something? So full tanking fits won't be necessary on a python. Yet they will still be necessary on an Incubus? Fantastic. And PRO is getting nerfed, which when combined with a nearly 40% ehp boost, is going to be overpowered. More experience I was paying attention to today Proto swarms would almost (as in basically butnot instantly) wreck my pthon, and I mean wreck it, proto is only getting a tiny nerf and std and adv is getting a buff, so there's that. Maybe have ccp give a 40m lock on range buff? Also, every incubus has an afterburner so there's that. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11094	Posted - 2014.07.30 13:43:00 - [253] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: I believe swarms don't do 100% damage to incubi, so that needs fixing. The only weapons in this game that deals 100% Damage are Nova Knives. Swarm Launchers are Explosive Weapons, and as such deal 120% to armor (Incubi) and 80% to shields (Python). This is working as intended -HAND
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3407	Posted - 2014.07.30 14:27:00 - [254] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: [ We aren't even all that bothered by the nerf at Proto Level, but 600 extra shields is too much and we have the maths to back it up. This is incorrect; I am quite bothered by the nerf and I'm sure others are as well. There is no reason to nerf swarms, at any level. They are not overperforming. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Dalmont Legrand RUST 415 RUST415 493	Posted - 2014.07.30 18:54:00 - [255] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: I believe swarms don't do 100% damage to incubi, so that needs fixing. The only weapons in this game that deals 100% Damage are Nova Knives. Swarm Launchers are Explosive Weapons, and as such deal 120% to armor (Incubi) and 80% to shields (Python). This is working as intended why da hell you are not on new CPM? cpm1 will be new thing to observe as well The best is yet to come No longer candidate
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 309	Posted - 2014.07.30 18:55:00 - [256] - Quote I would like to see whatever numbers CCP has that made them think proto swarms needed a nerf. It's only about a 5% reduction to total damage (before factoring in damage mods, proficiency, or shield/armor efficiency) which honestly wouldn't be game breaking if they weren't planning on buffing dropships at the same time. It probably has something to do with swarm vs HAV balance, a conversation that hasn't really taken off in this thread. Personally I think proto swarms are well balanced against tanks and dropships right now; it's only the lower level swarm launchers that need work. Bump the proposed proto swarm damage to 330 per missile and we'd have the same total damage we do now.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8784	Posted - 2014.07.30 20:07:00 - [257] - Quote Alright, so latest update We're dropping the health increase on shield dropships to 500HP, and dropping any extra armour for the armour dropships entirely. Missile damage is staying the same for now, but I will add that light weapon damage mods are getting a buff to 3/5/7% in Charlie. Hopefully this should address some concerns somewhat, but we'll be keeping an eye on Swarm Launchers and give them more (or less) love in Delta as is needed. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Dalmont Legrand RUST 415 RUST415 493	Posted - 2014.07.30 20:13:00 - [258] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so latest update We're dropping the health increase on shield dropships to 500HP, and dropping any extra armour for the armour dropships entirely. Missile damage is staying the same for now, but I will add that light weapon damage mods are getting a buff to 3/5/7% in Charlie. Hopefully this should address some concerns somewhat, but we'll be keeping an eye on Swarm Launchers and give them more (or less) love in Delta as is needed. what is needed is missile speed, dmg mods are dmg mods they will just decrease slightly ttk The best is yet to come No longer candidate
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 151	Posted - 2014.07.30 20:35:00 - [259] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: I believe swarms don't do 100% damage to incubi, so that needs fixing. The only weapons in this game that deals 100% Damage are Nova Knives. Swarm Launchers are Explosive Weapons, and as such deal 120% to armor (Incubi) and 80% to shields (Python). This is working as intended That's not what I meant, Swarms don't do full damage to incubi I believe it's somewhere like 55%/80%, I don't remember Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8787	Posted - 2014.07.30 20:55:00 - [260] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: I believe swarms don't do 100% damage to incubi, so that needs fixing. The only weapons in this game that deals 100% Damage are Nova Knives. Swarm Launchers are Explosive Weapons, and as such deal 120% to armor (Incubi) and 80% to shields (Python). This is working as intended That's not what I meant, Swarms don't do full damage to incubi I believe it's somewhere like 55%/80%, I don't remember That was fixed in Hotfix Bravo. Dalmont Legrand wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so latest update We're dropping the health increase on shield dropships to 500HP, and dropping any extra armour for the armour dropships entirely. Missile damage is staying the same for now, but I will add that light weapon damage mods are getting a buff to 3/5/7% in Charlie. Hopefully this should address some concerns somewhat, but we'll be keeping an eye on Swarm Launchers and give them more (or less) love in Delta as is needed. what is needed is missile speed, dmg mods are dmg mods they will just decrease slightly ttk Depending on how Swarms are looking after Hotfix Charlie, we'll look at how we want to adjust missile flight characteristics to make swarms vs dropships more engaging for both parties beyond "lock, fire, hit" or "lock, fire, AB". CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)


JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 153	Posted - 2014.07.30 21:15:00 - [261] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: The only weapons in this game that deals 100% Damage are Nova Knives. Swarm Launchers are Explosive Weapons, and as such deal 120% to armor (Incubi) and 80% to shields (Python). This is working as intended That's not what I meant, Swarms don't do full damage to incubi I believe it's somewhere like 55%/80%, I don't remember That was fixed in Hotfix Bravo. Dalmont Legrand wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so latest update We're dropping the health increase on shield dropships to 500HP, and dropping any extra armour for the armour dropships entirely. Missile damage is staying the same for now, but I will add that light weapon damage mods are getting a buff to 3/5/7% in Charlie. Hopefully this should address some concerns somewhat, but we'll be keeping an eye on Swarm Launchers and give them more (or less) love in Delta as is needed. what is needed is missile speed, dmg mods are dmg mods they will just decrease slightly ttk Depending on how Swarms are looking after Hotfix Charlie, we'll look at how we want to adjust missile flight characteristics to make swarms vs dropships more engaging for both parties beyond "lock, fire, hit" or "lock, fire, AB". All I remember was python getting fixed, unless I'm mistaken. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Hobo on Fire Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 310	Posted - 2014.07.30 22:26:00 - [262] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so latest update Missile damage is staying the same for now, but I will add that light weapon damage mods are getting a buff to 3/5/7% in Charlie. So are the missile damage changes not applying to any, or are you just not nerfing proto? What about the missile number reduction? Just want some clarification, since standard/advanced swarms really do need the love.
Kierkegaard Soren Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 488	Posted - 2014.07.30 23:20:00 - [263] - Quote I can only speak from the experience gained as a (somewhat) dedicated vehicle-hunter, but these changes look pretty miserable to me; advanced swarms get a minor buff and pro get a noticeable nerf, which combined with the ADS buffs will make hunting those particular targets even more challenging. Personally, I find that most of the ADS thst I run into in pubs are truly nasty creatures that can happily soak up my swarms whilst they rain down some pretty oppressive fire down onto my team. I've duelled them, 1v1, and the best I can so is drive them away for half a minute. Is this intended balance? Perhaps it is, but under the new proposed changes I can see these exchanges becoming even more one sided. I'm not asking to be able to solo ADS at will, with ease, but I would like to carry swarms with the knowledge that a stupid or inexperienced pilot is going to get seriously dented by my AV, and a better pilot will still need to keep his or her wits about them too if they don't want the paintwork scratched. I'm looking at the numbers in the OP and I'm just not feeling that anymore. But then, I see many ADS pilots in this thread saying they feel like they're made out of tinfoil and good luck currently, and they can't all be wrong, I guess? Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 8790	Posted - 2014.07.30 23:34:00 - [264] - Quote Hobo on Fire wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so latest update Missile damage is staying the same for now, but I will add that light weapon damage mods are getting a buff to 3/5/7% in Charlie. So are the missile damage changes not applying to any, or are you just not nerfing proto? What about the missile number reduction? Just want some clarification, since standard/advanced swarms really do need the love. Staying where they are in the first post. CCP Logibro // Patron Saint of Logistics // Distributor of Nanites (a¦á_a¦á)

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3188	Posted - 2014.07.31 01:19:00 - [265] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so latest update We're dropping the health increase on shield dropships to 500HP, and dropping any extra armour for the armour dropships entirely. Missile damage is staying the same as was stated in the first post, but I will add that light weapon damage mods are getting a buff to 3/5/7% in Charlie. Hopefully this should address some concerns somewhat, but we'll be keeping an eye on Swarm Launchers and give them more (or less) love in Delta as is needed. What? After every OP fit your still givung pythons a +30% ehp boost? Leave drop ship buffs till later, please for the love of god, trust me on this point! They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11120	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:04:00 - [266] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so latest update We're dropping the health increase on shield dropships to 500HP, and dropping any extra armour for the armour dropships entirely. Missile damage is staying the same as was stated in the first post, but I will add that light weapon damage mods are getting a buff to 3/5/7% in Charlie. Hopefully this should address some concerns somewhat, but we'll be keeping an eye on Swarm Launchers and give them more (or less) love in Delta as is needed. A 500HP buff on Shield Dropships is still far too high. Even if the Damage Modifiers were changed to 3/5/7%, this would still be an unnecessary nerf to the Swarm Launcher. If your plans are to nerf Swarm Launchers to correlate with the Damage Modifier changes, then it'd need to be a 2% nerf to remain consistent with the possible damage increase. -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:04:00 - [267] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so latest update We're dropping the health increase on shield dropships to 500HP, and dropping any extra armour for the armour dropships entirely. Missile damage is staying the same as was stated in the first post, but I will add that light weapon damage mods are getting a buff to 3/5/7% in Charlie. Hopefully this should address some concerns somewhat, but we'll be keeping an eye on Swarm Launchers and give them more (or less) love in Delta as is needed. What? After every OP fit your still givung pythons a +30% ehp boost? Leave drop ship buffs till later, please for the love of god, trust me on this point! Erm, no thank you. I spent a whole day testing the python, and have had past experiences with myrons, they need it, does the incubus ever need a enhanced 120mm armor plate just to survive? No. When you get hit, you have to run, so I don't see the problem here...even with a hardener you can't stay for as long as you think. And a build without a shield booster is bad, as once you are in armor, you're screwed, because the pythons shield depleted delay is pretty high. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:05:00 - [268] - Quote Atiim wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so latest update We're dropping the health increase on shield dropships to 500HP, and dropping any extra armour for the armour dropships entirely. Missile damage is staying the same as was stated in the first post, but I will add that light weapon damage mods are getting a buff to 3/5/7% in Charlie. Hopefully this should address some concerns somewhat, but we'll be keeping an eye on Swarm Launchers and give them more (or less) love in Delta as is needed. A 500HP buff on Shield Dropships is still far too high. Even if the Damage Modifiers were changed to 3/5/7%, this would still be an unnecessary nerf to the Swarm Launcher. If your plans are to nerf Swarm Launchers to correlate with the Damage Modifier changes, then it'd need to be a 2% nerf to remain consistent with the possible damage increase. They are only nerfing proto slightly, but are buffing std and adv launchers, so swarms aren't being nerfed. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11120	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:09:00 - [269] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: They are only nerfing proto slightly, but are buffing std and adv launchers, so swarms aren't being nerfed. The term 'nerf' is defined as a reduction in efficency in one or more attributes to an item. Definiteively, yes Swarm Launchers are being nerfed. Furthermore, the "well they're buffing STD/ADV swarms too" argument is null because the Absolute Swarm Launcher damage (the highest amount of damage possible with a SL) is being reduced. If the best version of an item available is ineffective, then the changes to lower tiers will be irrelevant because they'll be ineffective as well. Anything else? -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:12:00 - [270] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: They are only nerfing proto slightly, but are buffing std and adv launchers, so swarms aren't being nerfed. And why have none of you proposed a 40m lock on range buff? The term 'nerf' is defined as a reduction in efficency in one or more attributes to an item. Definiteively, yes Swarm Launchers are being nerfed. Furthermore, the "well they're buffing STD/ADV swarms too" argument is null because the Absolute Swarm Launcher damage (the highest amount of damage possible with a SL) is being reduced. If the best version of an item available is ineffective, then the changes to lower tiers will be irrelevant because they'll be ineffective as well. Anything else? The slight nerf proto is getting is hardly going to make it ineffective, and not to mention tanks were already nerfed directly and indirectly, less blaster accuracy and armor rep nerf with hardener nerf, and proto swarms already make dropships run ever since the damage profile fix. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.

Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11120	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:12:00 - [271] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Erm, no thank you. I spent a whole day testing the python, and have had past experiences with myrons, they need it, May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:14:00 - [272] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Erm, no thank you. I spent a whole day testing the python, and have had past experiences with myrons, they need it, May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? How about you go out in the field against proto av and tell me how much % of your hp is taken? And pythons have to fit a heavy advanced extender just to survive, hardly fair. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11120	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:14:00 - [273] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: The slight nerf proto is getting is hardly going to make it ineffective, and nit to mention tanks were already nerfed, and proto swarms already make dropships run ever since the damage profile fix. HAVs were nerfed to make SLs effective, so that point is null. Swarm Launchers are supposed to make Dropships run (or die if they stay). Something with both high speeds & DPS should not enjoy the benefits of high eHP and/or standing power. -HAND
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11120	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:16:00 - [274] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: How about you go out in the field against proto av and tell me how much % of your hp is taken? And pythons have to fit a heavy advanced extender just to survive, hardly fair. All a Python has to fit to survive is an Afterburner of any tier. I don't see how that's unfair though. Every item in the game (be they HAV, LAV, or Dropsuit) has to fit defensive modules (such as an Armor Plate or Shield Extender) if they want to increase their survivability, so I fail to see why DSs should be any different. -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:17:00 - [275] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: How about you go out in the field against proto av and tell me how much % of your hp is taken? And pythons have to fit a heavy advanced extender just to survive, hardly fair. All a Python has to fit to survive is an Afterburner of any tier. I don't see how that's unfair though. Every item in the game (be they HAV, LAV, or Dropsuit) has to fit defensive modules (such as an Armor Plate or Shield Extender) if they want to increase their survivability, so I fail to see why DSs should be any different. If a python fits and ab, he has the survivalbility of an lav, which is 2 shotted by swarms. And no vehicle has to fit a heavy hp mod to survive, exept shields. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:20:00 - [276] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: The slight nerf proto is getting is hardly going to make it ineffective, and nit to mention tanks were already nerfed, and proto swarms already make dropships run ever since the damage profile fix. HAVs were nerfed to make SLs effective, so that point is null. Swarm Launchers are supposed to make Dropships run (or die if they stay). Something with both high speeds & DPS should not enjoy the benefits of high eHP and/or standing power. When the hp buff comes, I'll still run, but I will have more hp for my hardener when I get hit by something I can see until it hits, unless im right near a swarm or forger, and it will allow me to be able to flee from a double forge attack right away when I'm on cooldown, or a breach forge that takes my shields to 300, I'd get 1 shotted at that point. Have you ever been surprised by two forgers before? 3 shots and your dead, now it will be 4 shots, enough time to run away if you're surprised. Also, have you ever used a myron before? It's a flying coffin. So please, tell me, how is 500 shield hp bad? Maybe now I can use a light extender and put a side turret since all my pg and cpu won't be taken by my hp mod. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11120	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:25:00 - [277] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: If a python fits and ab, he has the survivalbility of an lav, which is 2 shotted by swarms. And no vehicle has to fit a heavy hp mod to survive, exept shields. This fitting says otherwise. It can survive an entire clip, which is pretty generous considering how you can evade well before the Swarmer even reloads, and assuming your competent the 3rd Swarm will never even hit you. -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:28:00 - [278] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: If a python fits and ab, he has the survivalbility of an lav, which is 2 shotted by swarms. And no vehicle has to fit a heavy hp mod to survive, exept shields. This fitting says otherwise. It can survive an entire clip, which is pretty generous considering how you can evade well before the Swarmer even reloads, and assuming your competent the 3rd Swarm will never even hit you. Exept no hardener, no shield boost, incredibly weak, and once ykur shields are gone, which they will be at least twice, if you aren't boring anf fkee 300m after every hit, you pray you can't be hit for 12 seconds, trust me, that fit is weak. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
iKILLu osborne Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 127	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:32:00 - [279] - Quote i run both av and pythons and i can easily say the ehp buff is needed however dps for splash damage on missile turrets need a decrease, i have performed aerial strikes w/o aiming and easily net 2 to 3 kills per volley. on swarm launcher side dps and range is not the issue, the issue is the speed of the missiles to be blunt they are slow as f*** they can easily be outran by the derpiest of dropships w/o an afterburner. and still the damage does not calculate right when hitting armor(though vastly improved from pre-bravo) and finally the assault swarm launcher needs to be changed my idea on it, is it emptying entire clip per lock-on, but with increased reload time, increased lock on time, and fewer reserve ammo and and a increase to nanite cost to replenish that way it is good but won't be abused. just an idea don't get all trolly on me "uh guys" "i got to go back to the mcc those 10 ads's made me crap my dropsuit"
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:36:00 - [280] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: i run both av and pythons and i can easily say the ehp buff is needed however dps for splash damage on missile turrets need a decrease, i have performed aerial strikes w/o aiming and easily net 2 to 3 kills per volley. I'm sorry, I atopped reading right there, they have a small 2.5m splash radius, and only the python has dps, and you probably killed mlt suits, as they go down in 2 or 3 shots. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.

iKILLu osborne Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 127	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:42:00 - [281] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: iKILLu osborne wrote: i run both av and pythons and i can easily say the ehp buff is needed however dps for splash damage on missile turrets need a decrease, i have performed aerial strikes w/o aiming and easily net 2 to 3 kills per volley. I'm sorry, I atopped reading right there, they have a small 2.5m splash radius, and only the python has dps, and you probably killed mlt suits, as they go down in 2 or 3 shots. talking small missile turret you dope and yes when emptying my full clip i can easily get 2 to 3 kills just passing by , and maybe you should keep practicing reading i did not say radius i said dps for splash damage as long as i aim in their general direction they are dead after 3 shots w/o me getting a direct hit(s) keep in mind this is scout 514 "uh guys" "i got to go back to the mcc those 10 ads's made me crap my dropsuit"
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11121	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:43:00 - [282] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: When the hp buff comes, I'll still run, but I will have more hp for my hardener when I get hit by something I can see until it hits, unless im right near a swarm or forger, and it will allow me to be able to flee from a double forge attack right away when I'm on cooldown, or a breach forge that takes my shields to 300, I'd get 1 shotted at that point. Have you ever been surprised by two forgers before? 3 shots and your dead, now it will be 4 shots, enough time to run away if you're surprised. Also, have you ever used a myron before? It's a flying coffin. So please, tell me, how is 500 shield hp bad? Maybe now I can use a light extender and put a side turret since all my pg and cpu won't be taken by my hp mod. I took the liberty of crossing out items that have no relevance in a Swarm Launcher balance discussion. Though for the sake of entertaining your obvious lack of education, I'll address those points. You already have plenty of time to run away from a Forge Gun, even if your caught off guard. A Python, can evade a FGer's range in 2.6s. Considering how the charge time of a Forge Gun rests at 4s, this is plenty of time to escape. Though if two players work together to bring down a target, it should die. 500HP is bad because it will allow Pythons to 'tank' a substantial amount of HP (according to Monkey MAC's calculations, 9.7k eHP, which is twice as much as an HAV), while still having the best speed, maneuverability, and damage in the game. It effectively removes the sacrifice in operating a Python. -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:48:00 - [283] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: When the hp buff comes, I'll still run, but I will have more hp for my hardener when I get hit by something I can see until it hits, unless im right near a swarm or forger, and it will allow me to be able to flee from a double forge attack right away when I'm on cooldown, or a breach forge that takes my shields to 300, I'd get 1 shotted at that point. Have you ever been surprised by two forgers before? 3 shots and your dead, now it will be 4 shots, enough time to run away if you're surprised. Also, have you ever used a myron before? It's a flying coffin. So please, tell me, how is 500 shield hp bad? Maybe now I can use a light extender and put a side turret since all my pg and cpu won't be taken by my hp mod. I took the liberty of crossing out items that have no relevance in a Swarm Launcher balance discussion. Though for the sake of entertaining your obvious lack of education, I'll address those points. You already have plenty of time to run away from a Forge Gun, even if your caught off guard. A Python, can evade a FGer's range in 2.6s. Considering how the charge time of a Forge Gun rests at 4s, this is plenty of time to escape. Though if two players work together to bring down a target, it should die. 1. The way the python is, it takes awhile for it to start moving. 2. 2 people shouldn't be able to instakill a vehicke as most of the time, they come out of nowhere and most pythons don't use an ab, after this change it will stop instakills, and make side turrets viable 500HP is bad because it will allow Pythons to 'tank' a substantial amount of HP (according to Monkey MAC's calculations, 9.7k eHP, which is twice as much as an HAV), while still having the best speed, maneuverability, and damage in the game. that, right there, is either bull, or 24s of 9k isn't that much or idk, and ccp wanted hardeners to be able to allow a vehicle take decent damage and stay for a short while, with a long cooldown It effectively removes the sacrifice in operating a Python. And lastly, pythons will still be a tad weak, as 500 hp won't make it super tankable... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
iKILLu osborne Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 127	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:50:00 - [284] - Quote he is right 500 is not that much and is needed. "uh guys" "i got to go back to the mcc those 10 ads's made me crap my dropsuit"
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:52:00 - [285] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: he is right 500 is not that much and is needed. Also, please be aware atiim we are talking about myrons too. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:55:00 - [286] - Quote Also, atiim, please don't expect swarms to work for every vehicle and do high dps too...I mean we have the forge...swarms can't be the best av option... Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
iKILLu osborne Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 127	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:57:00 - [287] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: iKILLu osborne wrote: he is right 500 is not that much and is needed. Also, please be aware atiim we are talking about myrons too. no in my opinion myrons should be removed i see too many derpers with them using small missile to farm kills instead of making a more substantial purchase to do it (ads) "uh guys" "i got to go back to the mcc those 10 ads's made me crap my dropsuit"
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 03:58:00 - [288] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: JRleo jr wrote: iKILLu osborne wrote: he is right 500 is not that much and is needed. Also, please be aware atiim we are talking about myrons too. no in my opinion myrons should be removed i see too many derpers with them using small missile to farm kills instead of making a more substantial purchase to do it (ads) What's wrong with myrons? Slow rof missiles that only gunners can use and it's a slow ship. And atiim, before you say swarms can't be used to kill infantry, use a sidearm or commando. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
iKILLu osborne Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 127	Posted - 2014.07.31 04:02:00 - [289] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: iKILLu osborne wrote: JRleo jr wrote: iKILLu osborne wrote: he is right 500 is not that much and is needed. Also, please be aware atiim we are talking about myrons too. no in my opinion myrons should be removed i see too many derpers with them using small missile to farm kills instead of making a more substantial purchase to do it (ads) What's wrong with myrons? Slow rof missiles that only gunners can use and it's a slow ship. And atiim, before you say swarms can't be used to kill infantry, use a sidearm or commando. the fact that is at most a 120k investment and if used by the right hands can garnish a lot of kills as it is now it is low risk high reward "uh guys" "i got to go back to the mcc those 10 ads's made me crap my dropsuit"
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 04:13:00 - [290] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: JRleo jr wrote: iKILLu osborne wrote: JRleo jr wrote: iKILLu osborne wrote: he is right 500 is not that much and is needed. Also, please be aware atiim we are talking about myrons too. no in my opinion myrons should be removed i see too many derpers with them using small missile to farm kills instead of making a more substantial purchase to do it (ads) What's wrong with myrons? Slow rof missiles that only gunners can use and it's a slow ship. And atiim, before you say swarms can't be used to kill infantry, use a sidearm or commando. the fact that is at most a 120k investment and if used by the right hands can garnish a lot of kills as it is now it is low risk high reward Exelt they rely on gunner that can be shot out of a smal ship, and lol as if isk like that matters? Only because without gunners it is useless. And they don't get a +50, only thier gunners do. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.

Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11121	Posted - 2014.07.31 04:17:00 - [291] - Quote @JRleo jr The Afterburner grants a 150% bonus to Acceleration, not to mention that a Python begins flight the moment R1 is held down, so this is null. 2 Players removing themselves from a primary engagement to deal with another, should have guarranteed success assuming that they're midly competent. if a Python with 1 player can survive more than one player, it's broken. A 500HP buff means that a Python can have 4807 HP, which is more than an HAV (do I need to go into detail as to why that's broken)? It literally takes 2.6s to get out of a 300m range with a Python (assuming your 0m away from AV), which is well below the charge time of a Forge Gun. Swarm Launchers are an Anti-Vehicle weapon, and as such should be effective against vehicles. A Forge Gunner can expect his/her weapon to be effective against all vehicles, and the same can be said of Python users w/Missiles, and Incubi users w/Railguns. That argument is hypocritical, and null. Swarm Launchers can't be used against Infantry, and the argument of using a secondary (such as an SMG) is null because then you are assessing the SMG, not the Swarm Launcher. Though this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 04:27:00 - [292] - Quote Atiim wrote: @JRleo jr The Afterburner grants a 150% bonus to Acceleration, not to mention that a Python begins flight the moment R1 is held down, so this is null. 2 Players removing themselves from a primary engagement to deal with another, should have guarranteed success assuming that they're midly competent. if a Python with 1 player can survive more than one player, it's broken. A 500HP buff means that a Python can have 4807 HP, which is more than an HAV (do I need to go into detail as to why that's broken)? It literally takes 2.6s to get out of a 300m range with a Python (assuming your 0m away from AV), which is well below the charge time of a Forge Gun. Swarm Launchers are an Anti-Vehicle weapon, and as such should be effective against vehicles. A Forge Gunner can expect his/her weapon to be effective against all vehicles, and the same can be said of Python users w/Missiles, and Incubi users w/Railguns. That argument is hypocritical, and null. Swarm Launchers can't be used against Infantry, and the argument of using a secondary (such as an SMG) is null because then you are assessing the SMG, not the Swarm Launcher. Though this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Aand? If you want more powerful av, use a forge, that's why thier is heavier av otherwise don't expect super effective av, although, swarms need more lock on range. It's L1 to move, not R1 facehoof It takes more than 2.6s to move 300m if you're not moving too much, the 500 hp won't break a thing and my gunlogi has 5.3k shields, or 3.9k shields with a shield booster, heavy, and has 1.2k armor, while my python will have 3k shields with a small booster, and 900 armor, seems balanced to me, as those shields can go down fast to proper av. And lastly, the small missiles cannot kill an incubus, and can barely kill an armor ship with an ab, or any ship with an ab. And pythons have to sacrifice thier fit to use an ab. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Jace Silencerwolf Outcasts For Hire 5	Posted - 2014.07.31 04:30:00 - [293] - Quote lol ok forge guns knock any dropship around even more on ads. I have seen (i have done this as well) a militia forge hit an ads into a build killing it instant. logibro could you please give the swarms 225 meters lock on I get into a nice spot and a ads, tank or dropship can sitting at 180 meters kill me and I can not even fire back at least 200 meters lockon. I know 350 was way too much but 175 is a joke. 225 is not much but at least I can shoot back at an ads, tank or dropship.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 04:36:00 - [294] - Quote Jace Silencerwolf wrote: lol ok forge guns knock any dropship around even more on ads. I have seen (i have done this as well) a militia forge hit an ads into a build killing it instant. logibro could you please give the swarms 225 meters lock on I get into a nice spot and a ads, tank or dropship can sitting at 180 meters kill me and I can not even fire back at least 200 meters lockon. I know 350 was way too much but 175 is a joke. 225 is not much but at least I can shoot back at an ads, tank or dropship. I agree with a swarm lock on range buff. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 379	Posted - 2014.07.31 05:05:00 - [295] - Quote Shield dropships do not need any HP buffs, and why no one can see this is beyond me. Not only are they faster that and more maneuverable, they have a passive shield regen so as long as they get out of range those shields come right back. fit a hardener, shield extender and an afterburner and you wont die unless you are a complete idiot and think you can tank it all day which nothing in this game should be able to do. You shouldnt be getting a free shield extender because AV now works.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 05:12:00 - [296] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Shield dropships do not need any HP buffs, and why no one can see this is beyond me. Not only are they faster that and more maneuverabl Lol. Every incbus has an ab, and doesn't float annoyingly when trying to stay still. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 381	Posted - 2014.07.31 07:18:00 - [297] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Shield dropships do not need any HP buffs, and why no one can see this is beyond me. Not only are they faster that and more maneuverabl Lol. Every incbus has an ab, and doesn't float annoyingly when trying to stay still. But it turns slower and doesnt have as much acceleration and the bulk of its HP takes extra damage from swarms.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 158	Posted - 2014.07.31 08:50:00 - [298] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Shield dropships do not need any HP buffs, and why no one can see this is beyond me. Not only are they faster that and more maneuverabl Lol. Every incbus has an ab, and doesn't float annoyingly when trying to stay still. But it turns slower and doesnt have as much acceleration and the bulk of its HP takes extra damage from swarms. When I use an incubus it feels faster and much more stable...while the python has problems staying still, ab needs a high slot...and feels like it's just slower in general. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game Dark Taboo 128	Posted - 2014.07.31 10:46:00 - [299] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: Exelt they rely on gunner that can be shot out of a smal ship, and lol as if isk like that matters? Only because without gunners it is useless. And they don't get a +50, only thier gunners do. if they are squaded ,leader(pilot)gets vehicle kill assist+25 and squad leader commission +15 totaling 40 wp "uh guys" "i got to go back to the mcc those 10 ads's made me crap my dropsuit"
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 382	Posted - 2014.07.31 12:05:00 - [300] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: iKILLu osborne wrote: Exelt they rely on gunner that can be shot out of a smal ship, and lol as if isk like that matters? Only because without gunners it is useless. And they don't get a +50, only thier gunners do. if they are squaded ,leader(pilot)gets vehicle kill assist+25 and squad leader commission +15 totaling 40 wp Isn't it 35 with a +10 for the pilot if the pilot is squad lead?

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3190	Posted - 2014.07.31 15:12:00 - [301] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Erm, no thank you. I spent a whole day testing the python, and have had past experiences with myrons, they need it, May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? How about you go out in the field against proto av and tell me how much % of your hp is taken? And pythons have to fit a heavy advanced extender just to survive, hardly fair. I did, yes you do need an extender to stand upto AV I would find difficult to believe they would give vehicles that are survivable with purely their base eHP that would be overpowered to then give them the further option of fitting more eHP. I have tested both and from my opinion both need something other than a straight eHP buff. The most survivable fits I found Python 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x STD Light Shield Booster 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV AT-1 Missile Launcher Shields: 2555 Armour: 950 Survivability: 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Booster) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener) 9 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener + Shield Booster) 12 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher With this fit I was free to rain terror from the skies, provided I activated my Hardener at the correct time only a Breach Forge gun would drop my eHP significantly enough for me to even bother using any form of evasive manoeuvres. With relevant skills my hardener often lasted much longer than was necessary. Of the matches I played with this fit, only one of them actually required me to bug out from the airspace before my hardener ran out. I also bypassed the longer cooldown of the standard modules by ensuring I always had 2 fits in lieu, In total I lost just one of these dropships to a large Missile Turret who ganked me before I could react to the threat. Incubus Shields: 950 Armour: 2747 1x Afterburner 1x STD Armour Hardener 1x PRO Heavy Armour Repairer 1x ADV 60mm Armour Plates 1x ADV Particle Cannon Railgun Survivability: 3 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivabilty: (Including Armour Repair) 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener + Armour Repairer) 7 Shots - Pro Swarm Launcher This is the most survivable fit I could make with the Incubus, the lack of powergrid on a powergrid heavy tank was extremely limiting. Even without the hardener the best I could achieve was 6 Shots from a proto swarm launcher, even with 130 HP/s repair rate. The hardener effectively juiced up the repairers ability to rep through damage, turning the Incubus into a Active Tanker. The extra up time also meant I had the opportunity to stay longer. However the lack of survivability meant that as soon as I was hit by a PRO Swarm Launcher I would have to start making preparations to leave the area. I spent a lot of time with this dropship at below 60% health making very susceptible to a forge gunner or rail turret. In total I lost 3 of these dropships, 1 to another missile turret. 1 to a forge gun, who shot me while I was engaging a Swarmer and a damage modded railgun. It is worth pointing out that the python would have been equally susceptible to the railgun turret. Conclusion: Python is absolutely fine, if you actually use the shield hardener (it is there for a reason), you will find the lower numbers of the shields to be more than sufficent. The Incubus on the other hand is actually worse of by comparison while it may be able make better passive builds (with no active modules) the survivability simply doesn't stack up. The both dropships would instea benefit from a Powergrid buff in order to allow them to fit better modules, equivalent to an Advanced Powergrid Expansion Unit. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3190	Posted - 2014.07.31 15:33:00 - [302] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Shield dropships do not need any HP buffs, and why no one can see this is beyond me. Not only are they faster that and more maneuverabl Lol. Every incbus has an ab, and doesn't float annoyingly when trying to stay still. But it turns slower and doesnt have as much acceleration and the bulk of its HP takes extra damage from swarms. When I use an incubus it feels faster and much more stable...while the python has problems staying still, ab needs a high slot...and feels like it's just slower in general. Well you see now we can begin to write off all your ramblings on hear as useless opinions. Both dropships have the same maxium airspeed. Yet an Incubus fittinga plate will recieve a Speed penalty making it slower. The python has the fastest of the mark acceleration due to the vehicle being considered lighter. It will accelerate much quicker in the first few seconds The Incubus is much heavier and so recieves a much slower start, however being a heavier aircraft will give it momentum giving it better overall acceleration, but much poorer breaking. Yes the Incubus will feel more stable because it is heavier, however this comes at the price of maneuverability. No the Incubus is an absolute bch to hover, just getting it stop dead from max speed requires something akin to a wing over. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 193	Posted - 2014.07.31 15:35:00 - [303] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes cant help but feel after swarms get buffed again PLC is going to be the red headed stepchild once more... Can you Address/balance PLC again after swarms.. some issues are.. ammo amount 1+5 seems low for a dumb fire non lock-on weapon.. maybe 1+6 to 1+8 before ammo skills would be better. the arc of trajectory is a bit too steep reload speed probably better on assault suits with reload speed but havnt tested there yet as i use plc with ar on commando speed of which the projectile travels i think it needs to be doubled.. Logibro in training. Weapon Damage Profiles Quick List
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 159	Posted - 2014.07.31 20:44:00 - [304] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes cant help but feel after swarms get buffed again PLC is going to be the red headed stepchild once more... Can you Address/balance PLC again after swarms.. some issues are.. ammo amount 1+5 seems low for a dumb fire non lock-on weapon.. maybe 1+6 to 1+8 before ammo skills would be better. the arc of trajectory is a bit too steep reload speed probably better on assault suits with reload speed but havnt tested there yet as i use plc with ar on commando speed of which the projectile travels i think it needs to be doubled.. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 159	Posted - 2014.07.31 20:48:00 - [305] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Erm, no thank you. I spent a whole day testing the python, and have had past experiences with myrons, they need it, May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? How about you go out in the field against proto av and tell me how much % of your hp is taken? And pythons have to fit a heavy advanced extender just to survive, hardly fair. I did, yes you do need an extender to stand upto AV I would find difficult to believe they would give vehicles that are survivable with purely their base eHP that would be overpowered to then give them the further option of fitting more eHP. I have tested both and from my opinion both need something other than a straight eHP buff. The most survivable fits I found Python 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x STD Light Shield Booster 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV AT-1 Missile Launcher Shields: 2555 Armour: 950 Survivability: 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Booster) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener) 9 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener + Shield Booster) 12 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher With this fit I was free to rain terror from the skies, provided I activated my Hardener at the correct time only a Breach Forge gun would drop my eHP significantly enough for me to even bother using any form of evasive manoeuvres. With relevant skills my hardener often lasted much longer than was necessary. Of the matches I played with this fit, only one of them actually required me to bug out from the airspace before my hardener ran out. I also bypassed the longer cooldown of the standard modules by ensuring I always had 2 fits in lieu, In total I lost just one of these dropships to a large Missile Turret who ganked me before I could react to the threat. Incubus Shields: 950 Armour: 2747 1x Afterburner 1x STD Armour Hardener 1x PRO Heavy Armour Repairer 1x ADV 60mm Armour Plates 1x ADV Particle Cannon Railgun Survivability: 3 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivabilty: (Including Armour Repair) 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener + Armour Repairer) 7 Shots - Pro Swarm Launcher This is the most survivable fit I could make with the Incubus, the lack of powergrid on a powergrid heavy tank was extremely limiting. Even without the hardener the best I could achieve was 6 Shots from a proto swarm launcher, even with 130 HP/s repair rate. The hardener effectively juiced up the repairers ability to rep through damage, turning the Incubus into a Active Tanker. The extra up time also meant I had the opportunity to stay longer. However the lack of survivability meant that as soon as I was hit by a PRO Swarm Launcher I would have to start making preparations to leave the area. I spent a lot of time with this dropship at below 60% health making very susceptible to a forge gunner or rail turret. In total I lost 3 of these dropships, 1 to another missile turret. 1 to a forge gun, who shot me while I was engaging a Swarmer and a damage modded railgun. It is worth pointing out that the python would have been equally susceptible to the railgun turret. Conclusion: Python is absolutely fine, if you actually use the shield hardener (it is there for a reason), you will find the lower numbers of the shields to be more than sufficent. The Incubus on the other hand is actually worse of by comparison while it may be able make better passive builds (with no active modules) the survivability simply doesn't stack up. The both dropships would instea benefit from a Powergrid buff in order to allow them to fit better modules, equivalent to an Advanced Powergrid Expansion Unit. Well, on my incubus I never needed hp mods...and wow 4 shots is uh....pretty low for a vehicle especially vs lock on, hate to see 2 swarms, and a 24s hardener is just annoying, who thought it was a good idea to make long cooldown short duration? Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3192	Posted - 2014.08.01 01:10:00 - [306] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Erm, no thank you. I spent a whole day testing the python, and have had past experiences with myrons, they need it, May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? How about you go out in the field against proto av and tell me how much % of your hp is taken? And pythons have to fit a heavy advanced extender just to survive, hardly fair. I did, yes you do need an extender to stand upto AV I would find difficult to believe they would give vehicles that are survivable with purely their base eHP that would be overpowered to then give them the further option of fitting more eHP. I have tested both and from my opinion both need something other than a straight eHP buff. The most survivable fits I found Python 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x STD Light Shield Booster 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV AT-1 Missile Launcher Shields: 2555 Armour: 950 Survivability: 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Booster) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener) 9 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener + Shield Booster) 12 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher With this fit I was free to rain terror from the skies, provided I activated my Hardener at the correct time only a Breach Forge gun would drop my eHP significantly enough for me to even bother using any form of evasive manoeuvres. With relevant skills my hardener often lasted much longer than was necessary. Of the matches I played with this fit, only one of them actually required me to bug out from the airspace before my hardener ran out. I also bypassed the longer cooldown of the standard modules by ensuring I always had 2 fits in lieu, In total I lost just one of these dropships to a large Missile Turret who ganked me before I could react to the threat. Incubus Shields: 950 Armour: 2747 1x Afterburner 1x STD Armour Hardener 1x PRO Heavy Armour Repairer 1x ADV 60mm Armour Plates 1x ADV Particle Cannon Railgun Survivability: 3 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivabilty: (Including Armour Repair) 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener + Armour Repairer) 7 Shots - Pro Swarm Launcher This is the most survivable fit I could make with the Incubus, the lack of powergrid on a powergrid heavy tank was extremely limiting. Even without the hardener the best I could achieve was 6 Shots from a proto swarm launcher, even with 130 HP/s repair rate. The hardener effectively juiced up the repairers ability to rep through damage, turning the Incubus into a Active Tanker. The extra up time also meant I had the opportunity to stay longer. However the lack of survivability meant that as soon as I was hit by a PRO Swarm Launcher I would have to start making preparations to leave the area. I spent a lot of time with this dropship at below 60% health making very susceptible to a forge gunner or rail turret. In total I lost 3 of these dropships, 1 to another missile turret. 1 to a forge gun, who shot me while I was engaging a Swarmer and a damage modded railgun. It is worth pointing out that the python would have been equally susceptible to the railgun turret. Conclusion: Python is absolutely fine, if you actually use the shield hardener (it is there for a reason), you will find the lower numbers of the shields to be more than sufficent. The Incubus on the other hand is actually worse of by comparison while it may be able make better passive builds (with no active modules) the survivability simply doesn't stack up. The both dropships would instea benefit from a Powergrid buff in order to allow them to fit better modules, equivalent to an Advanced Powergrid Expansion Unit. Well, on my incubus I never needed hp mods...and wow 4 shots is uh....pretty low for a vehicle especially vs lock on, hate to see 2 swarms, and a 24s hardener is just annoying, who thought it was a good idea to make long cooldown short duration? Incubuses always require HP mods, you need to be close as damn it to 3000 armour and have a hardener or have over 3200 to be anything near survivable. The Incubus is especially weak to well every form of AV due to the damage profile. 4 swarms may not seem like a lot, but this means the user has to reload at least once to actually finish you off. Assuming you start to move out of his range by the second volley you are effectively invincible. Pair this with your hardener boosting you upto require more than the Amount of Rounds a swarmer will carry, it's not difficult to see the python does not need this buff. The maths proves it. Like I said though on both Dropships the Powergrid is a severly limiting factor, it's less of a concern for the python since it tanks with high slots, but it's unbelievable crippling to the Incubus. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 161	Posted - 2014.08.01 01:23:00 - [307] - Quote Monkey MAC Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Atiim wrote: [quote=JRleo jr wrote: May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? How about you go out in the field against proto av and tell me how much % of your hp is taken? And pythons have to fit a heavy advanced extender just to survive, hardly fair. I did, yes you do need an extender to stand upto AV I would find difficult to believe they would give vehicles that are survivable with purely their base eHP that would be overpowered to then give them the further option of fitting more eHP. I have tested both and from my opinion both need something other than a straight eHP buff. The most survivable fits I found Python 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x STD Light Shield Booster 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV AT-1 Missile Launcher Shields: 2555 Armour: 950 Survivability: 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Booster) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener) 9 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener + Shield Booster) 12 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher With this fit I was free to rain terror from the skies, provided I activated my Hardener at the correct time only a Breach Forge gun would drop my eHP significantly enough for me to even bother using any form of evasive manoeuvres. With relevant skills my hardener often lasted much longer than was necessary. Of the matches I played with this fit, only one of them actually required me to bug out from the airspace before my hardener ran out. I also bypassed the longer cooldown of the standard modules by ensuring I always had 2 fits in lieu, In total I lost just one of these dropships to a large Missile Turret who ganked me before I could react to the threat. Incubus Shields: 950 Armour: 2747 1x Afterburner 1x STD Armour Hardener 1x PRO Heavy Armour Repairer 1x ADV 60mm Armour Plates 1x ADV Particle Cannon Railgun Survivability: 3 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivabilty: (Including Armour Repair) 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener + Armour Repairer) 7 Shots - Pro Swarm Launcher This is the most survivable fit I could make with the Incubus, the lack of powergrid on a powergrid heavy tank was extremely limiting. Even without the hardener the best I could achieve was 6 Shots from a proto swarm launcher, even with 130 HP/s repair rate. The hardener effectively juiced up the repairers ability to rep through damage, turning the Incubus into a Active Tanker. The extra up time also meant I had the opportunity to stay longer. However the lack of survivability meant that as soon as I was hit by a PRO Swarm Launcher I would have to start making preparations to leave the area. I spent a lot of time with this dropship at below 60% health making very susceptible to a forge gunner or rail turret. In total I lost 3 of these dropships, 1 to another missile turret. 1 to a forge gun, who shot me while I was engaging a Swarmer and a damage modded railgun. It is worth pointing out that the python would have been equally susceptible to the railgun turret. Conclusion: Python is absolutely fine, if you actually use the shield hardener (it is there for a reason), you will find the lower numbers of the shields to be more than sufficent. The Incubus on the other hand is actually worse of by comparison while it may be able make better passive builds (with no active modules) the survivability simply doesn't stack up. The both dropships would instea benefit from a Powergrid buff in order to allow them to fit better modules, equivalent to an Advanced Powergrid Expansion Unit. Well, on my incubus I never needed hp mods...and wow 4 shots is uh....pretty low for a vehicle especially vs lock on, hate to see 2 swarms, and a 24s hardener is just annoying, who thought it was a good idea to make long cooldown short duration? Incubuses always require HP mods, you need to be close as damn it to 3000 armour and have a hardener or have over 3200 to be anything near survivable. The Incubus is especially weak to well every form of AV due to the damage profile. 4 swarms may not seem like a lot, but this means the user has to reload at least once to actually finish you off. Assuming you start to move out of his range by the second volley you are effectively invincible. Pair this with your hardener boosting you upto require more than the Amount of Rounds a swarmer will carry, it's not difficult to see the python does not need this buff. The maths proves it. Like I said though on both Dropships the Powergrid is a severly limiting factor, it's less of a concern for the python since it tanks with high slots, but it's unbelievable crippling to the Incubus.[/quote] Oh, but indeed it does. And I have brought up a lock on range buff...and the myron needs it too. And I never used an hp mod on my incubus... NOW, stop acting like swarms are the only av in this game. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3193	Posted - 2014.08.01 01:52:00 - [308] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: How about you go out in the field against proto av and tell me how much % of your hp is taken? And pythons have to fit a heavy advanced extender just to survive, hardly fair. I did, yes you do need an extender to stand upto AV I would find difficult to believe they would give vehicles that are survivable with purely their base eHP that would be overpowered to then give them the further option of fitting more eHP. I have tested both and from my opinion both need something other than a straight eHP buff. The most survivable fits I found Python 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x STD Light Shield Booster 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV AT-1 Missile Launcher Shields: 2555 Armour: 950 Survivability: 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Booster) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener) 9 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener + Shield Booster) 12 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher With this fit I was free to rain terror from the skies, provided I activated my Hardener at the correct time only a Breach Forge gun would drop my eHP significantly enough for me to even bother using any form of evasive manoeuvres. With relevant skills my hardener often lasted much longer than was necessary. Of the matches I played with this fit, only one of them actually required me to bug out from the airspace before my hardener ran out. I also bypassed the longer cooldown of the standard modules by ensuring I always had 2 fits in lieu, In total I lost just one of these dropships to a large Missile Turret who ganked me before I could react to the threat. Incubus Shields: 950 Armour: 2747 1x Afterburner 1x STD Armour Hardener 1x PRO Heavy Armour Repairer 1x ADV 60mm Armour Plates 1x ADV Particle Cannon Railgun Survivability: 3 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivabilty: (Including Armour Repair) 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener + Armour Repairer) 7 Shots - Pro Swarm Launcher This is the most survivable fit I could make with the Incubus, the lack of powergrid on a powergrid heavy tank was extremely limiting. Even without the hardener the best I could achieve was 6 Shots from a proto swarm launcher, even with 130 HP/s repair rate. The hardener effectively juiced up the repairers ability to rep through damage, turning the Incubus into a Active Tanker. The extra up time also meant I had the opportunity to stay longer. However the lack of survivability meant that as soon as I was hit by a PRO Swarm Launcher I would have to start making preparations to leave the area. I spent a lot of time with this dropship at below 60% health making very susceptible to a forge gunner or rail turret. In total I lost 3 of these dropships, 1 to another missile turret. 1 to a forge gun, who shot me while I was engaging a Swarmer and a damage modded railgun. It is worth pointing out that the python would have been equally susceptible to the railgun turret. Conclusion: Python is absolutely fine, if you actually use the shield hardener (it is there for a reason), you will find the lower numbers of the shields to be more than sufficent. The Incubus on the other hand is actually worse of by comparison while it may be able make better passive builds (with no active modules) the survivability simply doesn't stack up. The both dropships would instea benefit from a Powergrid buff in order to allow them to fit better modules, equivalent to an Advanced Powergrid Expansion Unit. Well, on my incubus I never needed hp mods...and wow 4 shots is uh....pretty low for a vehicle especially vs lock on, hate to see 2 swarms, and a 24s hardener is just annoying, who thought it was a good idea to make long cooldown short duration? Incubuses always require HP mods, you need to be close as damn it to 3000 armour and have a hardener or have over 3200 to be anything near survivable. The Incubus is especially weak to well every form of AV due to the damage profile. 4 swarms may not seem like a lot, but this means the user has to reload at least once to actually finish you off. Assuming you start to move out of his range by the second volley you are effectively invincible. Pair this with your hardener boosting you upto require more than the Amount of Rounds a swarmer will carry, it's not difficult to see the python does not need this buff. The maths proves it. Like I said though on both Dropships the Powergrid is a severly limiting factor, it's less of a concern for the python since it tanks with high slots, but it's unbelievable crippling to the Incubus.[/quote wrote: Oh, but indeed it does. And I have brought up a lock on range buff...and the myron needs it too. And I never used an hp mod on my incubus... NOW, stop acting like swarms are the only av in this game. A lock-on range buff will give little to no benifit, unless pilots just stop as soon as they reach 160m and just watch you from their, Swarms need a whole different set of performance changes, ones that will make them more skill based as well as more effective Anti-Air. Congratulations what do you want a medal? You can tell me till your blue in the face it makes no bearing on the maths. The maths shows that even with a Heavy Armour Plate the Incubus can't tank as well as a Hardened Python. So please give it up with annecdotes and opinions they don't mean anything. I'm not acting like Swarms are the only AV, but Plasma Cannons don't take out Dropships. Futhermore we are in a thread discussing swarms and dropships. Finally Swarms have better DPS than forge guns, so it's safe to assume that Swarm Launchers are the more important AV weapon to consider when balancing. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 349	Posted - 2014.08.01 02:42:00 - [309] - Quote I have a few ideas - I'm not sure if they have merit and would like some input: 1. Make damage inversely proportional to flight time and double the flight time - if the swarm travels zero meters it does 1.25x damage, if it travels the current distance it does 1x damage(the distance it takes to blow up without hitting anything), if it travels double the distance it does 0.75x damage. Beyond this it loses thrust and drops to the ground becoming a bomb(not necessary except for the rare laugh at the totally random kill/death - similar to getting hit by the inter-mcc missiles or a null cannon missile while in a dropship - inertia will likely take most of these bombs outside the play area). I believe this will benefit sneak attacks and make low flying dropships think twice(it's existence would be a good deterrent). 2. I think the main problem people have with the Python buff is that there is no long range AV weapon with a bias toward shield damage. Creating a laser based swarm variant that fires a high damage low distance single shot laser at it's target when in range would work - basically a laser attached to the missile instead of a warhead(it would do +20% damage vs shields and -20% damage vs armor). I don't think it's in line with lore to switch profiles on a variant but we have to work with what we have.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 163	Posted - 2014.08.01 02:50:00 - [310] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: How about you go out in the field against proto av and tell me how much % of your hp is taken? And pythons have to fit a heavy advanced extender just to survive, hardly fair. I did, yes you do need an extender to stand upto AV I would find difficult to believe they would give vehicles that are survivable with purely their base eHP that would be overpowered to then give them the further option of fitting more eHP. I have tested both and from my opinion both need something other than a straight eHP buff. The most survivable fits I found Python 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x STD Light Shield Booster 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV AT-1 Missile Launcher Shields: 2555 Armour: 950 Survivability: 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Booster) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener) 9 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability (Including Shield Hardener + Shield Booster) 12 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher With this fit I was free to rain terror from the skies, provided I activated my Hardener at the correct time only a Breach Forge gun would drop my eHP significantly enough for me to even bother using any form of evasive manoeuvres. With relevant skills my hardener often lasted much longer than was necessary. Of the matches I played with this fit, only one of them actually required me to bug out from the airspace before my hardener ran out. I also bypassed the longer cooldown of the standard modules by ensuring I always had 2 fits in lieu, In total I lost just one of these dropships to a large Missile Turret who ganked me before I could react to the threat. Incubus Shields: 950 Armour: 2747 1x Afterburner 1x STD Armour Hardener 1x PRO Heavy Armour Repairer 1x ADV 60mm Armour Plates 1x ADV Particle Cannon Railgun Survivability: 3 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivabilty: (Including Armour Repair) 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener + Armour Repairer) 7 Shots - Pro Swarm Launcher This is the most survivable fit I could make with the Incubus, the lack of powergrid on a powergrid heavy tank was extremely limiting. Even without the hardener the best I could achieve was 6 Shots from a proto swarm launcher, even with 130 HP/s repair rate. The hardener effectively juiced up the repairers ability to rep through damage, turning the Incubus into a Active Tanker. The extra up time also meant I had the opportunity to stay longer. However the lack of survivability meant that as soon as I was hit by a PRO Swarm Launcher I would have to start making preparations to leave the area. I spent a lot of time with this dropship at below 60% health making very susceptible to a forge gunner or rail turret. In total I lost 3 of these dropships, 1 to another missile turret. 1 to a forge gun, who shot me while I was engaging a Swarmer and a damage modded railgun. It is worth pointing out that the python would have been equally susceptible to the railgun turret. Conclusion: Python is absolutely fine, if you actually use the shield hardener (it is there for a reason), you will find the lower numbers of the shields to be more than sufficent. The Incubus on the other hand is actually worse of by comparison while it may be able make better passive builds (with no active modules) the survivability simply doesn't stack up. The both dropships would instea benefit from a Powergrid buff in order to allow them to fit better modules, equivalent to an Advanced Powergrid Expansion Unit. Well, on my incubus I never needed hp mods...and wow 4 shots is uh....pretty low for a vehicle especially vs lock on, hate to see 2 swarms, and a 24s hardener is just annoying, who thought it was a good idea to make long cooldown short duration? Incubuses always require HP mods, you need to be close as damn it to 3000 armour and have a hardener or have over 3200 to be anything near survivable. The Incubus is especially weak to well every form of AV due to the damage profile. 4 swarms may not seem like a lot, but this means the user has to reload at least once to actually finish you off. Assuming you start to move out of his range by the second volley you are effectively invincible. Pair this with your hardener boosting you upto require more than the Amount of Rounds a swarmer will carry, it's not difficult to see the python does not need this buff. The maths proves it. Like I said though on both Dropships the Powergrid is a severly limiting factor, it's less of a concern for the python since it tanks with high slots, but it's unbelievable crippling to the Incubus. Oh, but indeed it does. And I have brought up a lock on range buff...and the myron needs it too. And I never used an hp mod on my incubus... NOW, stop acting like swarms are the only av in this game.[/quote wrote: A lock-on range buff will give little to no benifit, unless pilots just stop as soon as they reach 160m and just watch you from their, Swarms need a whole different set of performance changes, ones that will make them more skill based as well as more effective Anti-Air. Congratulations what do you want a medal? You can tell me till your blue in the face it makes no bearing on the maths. The maths shows that even with a Heavy Armour Plate the Incubus can't tank as well as a Hardened Python. So please give it up with annecdotes and opinions they don't mean anything. I'm not acting like Swarms are the only AV, but Plasma Cannons don't take out Dropships. Futhermore we are in a thread discussing swarms and dropships. Finally Swarms have better DPS than forge guns, so I assume that Swarm Launchers are the more important AV weapon to consider when balancing. I can see why they're getting nerfed then. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.

Kratek Heshan United Colonial Empire Army Freek Alliance 70	Posted - 2014.08.01 06:01:00 - [311] - Quote finally swarm are ripping galdari tanks and dropships
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3196	Posted - 2014.08.01 12:30:00 - [312] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Well, on my incubus I never needed hp mods...and wow 4 shots is uh....pretty low for a vehicle especially vs lock on, hate to see 2 swarms, and a 24s hardener is just annoying, who thought it was a good idea to make long cooldown short duration? Incubuses always require HP mods, you need to be close as damn it to 3000 armour and have a hardener or have over 3200 to be anything near survivable. The Incubus is especially weak to well every form of AV due to the damage profile. 4 swarms may not seem like a lot, but this means the user has to reload at least once to actually finish you off. Assuming you start to move out of his range by the second volley you are effectively invincible. Pair this with your hardener boosting you upto require more than the Amount of Rounds a swarmer will carry, it's not difficult to see the python does not need this buff. The maths proves it. Like I said though on both Dropships the Powergrid is a severly limiting factor, it's less of a concern for the python since it tanks with high slots, but it's unbelievable crippling to the Incubus. Oh, but indeed it does. And I have brought up a lock on range buff...and the myron needs it too. And I never used an hp mod on my incubus... NOW, stop acting like swarms are the only av in this game. A lock-on range buff will give little to no benifit, unless pilots just stop as soon as they reach 160m and just watch you from their, Swarms need a whole different set of performance changes, ones that will make them more skill based as well as more effective Anti-Air. Congratulations what do you want a medal? You can tell me till your blue in the face it makes no bearing on the maths. The maths shows that even with a Heavy Armour Plate the Incubus can't tank as well as a Hardened Python. So please give it up with annecdotes and opinions they don't mean anything. I'm not acting like Swarms are the only AV, but Plasma Cannons don't take out Dropships. Futhermore we are in a thread discussing swarms and dropships. Finally Swarms have better DPS than forge guns, so I assume that Swarm Launchers are the more important AV weapon to consider when balancing. I can see why they're getting nerfed then. Yeah, there is nothing wrong with a little nerf to our maximum achievable. Very few players, even dedicated AVers are gonna gonna go all out with. Pro Minmando + Damage Mods + Profciency + Speacilist Swarm Launcher We simply sacrifice too much for that kind of power. Furthermore it stops fits like that 2 shotting most dropships, considering the first volley usually hits unannounced and the second is already in the air, it's not exactly fair. But you'll I never disagreed with that nerf since STD amd ADV are being made much more competitive/competent their is no longer a need to run all out Proto as an AVer in pub matches just to be effective. The problem I have is that the Assault Dropships simply don't need this proposes buff yet, I won't comment on the Transport Dropships since I don't fly them regularly, but I have always been of the mind that Transport vehicles should have the best tank in the game but the worst offensive capabilities. 500 extra shields to the python is a 20% boost to maximum eHP, it survivability with a passive build (one without active modules) would surpass the Incubus considerably. Futhermore under a Hardener your looking at almost invincible fits. I'm not saying they need a nerf, but for the love of god, they most certainly do not need a buff right now either. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3484	Posted - 2014.08.01 13:59:00 - [313] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: 1. Yeah, there is nothing wrong with a little nerf to our maximum achievable. Very few players, even dedicated AVers are gonna gonna go all out with. 2. We simply sacrifice too much for that kind of power. 3. Furthermore it stops fits like that 2 shotting most dropships, considering the first volley usually hits unannounced and the second is already in the air, it's not exactly fair. 1. I'm a dedicated AVer. If my tools don't work, I will not use them. There's nothing fun about chasing an HAV or ADS around the map for an entire match. 2. If a vehicle is farming my teammates, I will sacrifice everything to chase it away. Or I'll back out of the match. 3. Bullsh*t. No ADS has ever been wrecked by two volleys. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Hawkin P Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 445	Posted - 2014.08.01 14:49:00 - [314] - Quote Just when you thought Swarm Launchers couldn't be more Sh*t Why don't you spend you time fixing the broken assault suits, and stop breaking more weapons. I hear the Plasma cannon and Flaylock the are way too OP why don't you nerf them some more.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3205	Posted - 2014.08.01 16:56:00 - [315] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: 1. Yeah, there is nothing wrong with a little nerf to our maximum achievable. Very few players, even dedicated AVers are gonna gonna go all out with. We simply sacrifice too much for that kind of power. 2. Furthermore it stops fits like that 2 shotting most dropships, considering the first volley usually hits unannounced and the second is already in the air, it's not exactly fair. 1. I'm an AVer and my mentality is quite the opposite. If a vehicle is farming my teammates, I will sacrifice everything to chase it away. But when I know my tools won't work, I do not even try. Few things back-me-out-of-match faster than being rushed by the very vehicle(s) I'm attempting to repel. Of course but it's a pub match, unless there guys running proto and from my corp/friends I'm not gonna go all out and make a loss of 500,000 ISK loss just to cost a guy 1 tank. 2. Bullsht. No ADS has ever been wrecked by two volleys of Swarms. Proo Minmando + 2 Pro Damage Mods + Specalist Swarm launcher = >1809 (Don't have the maths to hand but, it has the potential to 2 shot a weaker fit) They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh* and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11162	Posted - 2014.08.01 17:03:00 - [316] - Quote 1325 * 1.1 = 1457.5 * 1.0956 = 1596HP Monkey, I think you need to adjust your math. Though it should also be mentioned that 1596HP will never 2HK any vehicle running defensive modules, barring LAVS. Amarrians have Fashion Sense, Matari have Common Sense. But in DUST Caldari have all the things! -HAND
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3205	Posted - 2014.08.01 17:51:00 - [317] - Quote Atiim wrote: 1325 * 1.1 = 1457.5 * 1.0956 = 1596HP Monkey, I think you need to adjust your math. Though it should also be mentioned that 1596HP will never 2HK any vehicle running defensive modules, barring LAVS. That's the numbers provided from Rattatai's spread sheet! Don't look at me I never did that one! But that does included profciency against armour. And like I said weaker fits. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 142	Posted - 2014.08.01 20:38:00 - [318] - Quote Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Erm, no thank you. I spent a whole day testing the python, and have had past experiences with myrons, they need it, May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? How about flying a Python yourself and seeing the other side of the coin... the argument of AV and dropships is getting so annoying when people are not aware of the perspective of the other player. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 165	Posted - 2014.08.01 20:48:00 - [319] - Quote Monkey MAC Monkey MAC wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: [quote=JRleo jr wrote: Incubuses always require HP mods, you need to be close as damn it to 3000 armour and have a hardener or have over 3200 to be anything near survivable. The Incubus is especially weak to well every form of AV due to the damage profile. 4 swarms may not seem like a lot, but this means the user has to reload at least once to actually finish you off. Assuming you start to move out of his range by the second volley you are effectively invincible. Pair this with your hardener boosting you upto require more than the Amount of Rounds a swarmer will carry, it's not difficult to see the python does not need this buff. The maths proves it. Like I said though on both Dropships the Powergrid is a severly limiting factor, it's less of a concern for the python since it tanks with high slots, but it's unbelievable crippling to the Incubus. Oh, but indeed it does. And I have brought up a lock on range buff...and the myron needs it too. And I never used an hp mod on my incubus... NOW, stop acting like swarms are the only av in this game. A lock-on range buff will give little to no benifit, unless pilots just stop as soon as they reach 160m and just watch you from their, Swarms need a whole different set of performance changes, ones that will make them more skill based as well as more effective Anti-Air. Congratulations what do you want a medal? You can tell me till your blue in the face it makes no bearing on the maths. The maths shows that even with a Heavy Armour Plate the Incubus can't tank as well as a Hardened Python. So please give it up with annecdotes and opinions they don't mean anything. I'm not acting like Swarms are the only AV, but Plasma Cannons don't take out Dropships. Futhermore we are in a thread discussing swarms and dropships. Finally Swarms have better DPS than forge guns, so I assume that Swarm Launchers are the more important AV weapon to consider when balancing. I can see why they're getting nerfed then. Yeah, there is nothing wrong with a little nerf to our maximum achievable. Very few players, even dedicated AVers are gonna gonna go all out with. Pro Minmando + Damage Mods + Profciency + Speacilist Swarm Launcher We simply sacrifice too much for that kind of power. Furthermore it stops fits like that 2 shotting most dropships, considering the first volley usually hits unannounced and the second is already in the air, it's not exactly fair. But you'll I never disagreed with that nerf since STD amd ADV are being made much more competitive/competent their is no longer a need to run all out Proto as an AVer in pub matches just to be effective. The problem I have is that the Assault Dropships simply don't need this proposes buff yet, I won't comment on the Transport Dropships since I don't fly them regularly, but I have always been of the mind that Transport vehicles should have the best tank in the game but the worst offensive capabilities. 500 extra shields to the python is a 20% boost to maximum eHP, it survivability with a passive build (one without active modules) would surpass the Incubus considerably. Futhermore under a Hardener your looking at almost invincible fits. I'm not saying they need a nerf, but for the love of god, they most certainly do not need a buff right now either.[/quote] Well, swarms aren't the only av...so forges and rails wreck pythons...and incubus has some shields to cover them and no dekay to regen, helps a tad. And even with a hardener, trust me the python will be far from invincible. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Jace Silencerwolf Outcasts For Hire 5	Posted - 2014.08.01 20:56:00 - [320] - Quote lol I have seen a lot of armor ads running with 3500-3850 armor so do your math again with those numbers

Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 386	Posted - 2014.08.01 21:38:00 - [321] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Erm, no thank you. I spent a whole day testing the python, and have had past experiences with myrons, they need it, May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? How about flying a Python yourself and seeing the other side of the coin... the argument of AV and dropships is getting so annoying when people are not aware of the perspective of the other player. I have done both. All an ads needs is an afterburner and it can get clear of AV in seconds. If you decide to stay in an area where av is you deserve to be blown up.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 142	Posted - 2014.08.01 21:47:00 - [322] - Quote Jace Silencerwolf wrote: lol I have seen a lot of armor ads running with 3500-3850 armor so do your math again with those numbers By that point you're slow as sh*t and probably don't have a rep, or if they do, it's only about 25 rep a second. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Zindorak 1.U.P 217	Posted - 2014.08.01 21:47:00 - [323] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Erm, no thank you. I spent a whole day testing the python, and have had past experiences with myrons, they need it, May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? How about flying a Python yourself and seeing the other side of the coin... the argument of AV and dropships is getting so annoying when people are not aware of the perspective of the other player. I have done both. All an ads needs is an afterburner and it can get clear of AV in seconds. If you decide to stay in an area where av is you deserve to be blown up. Thats what i like there is a safe zone for us to recooperate Master of the Scrambler Pistol. Carthum Assault ScP <3
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 165	Posted - 2014.08.01 22:03:00 - [324] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Erm, no thank you. I spent a whole day testing the python, and have had past experiences with myrons, they need it, May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? How about flying a Python yourself and seeing the other side of the coin... the argument of AV and dropships is getting so annoying when people are not aware of the perspective of the other player. I have done both. All an ads needs is an afterburner and it can get clear of AV in seconds. If you decide to stay in an area where av is you deserve to be blown up. Every tim people bring up an afterburner I'm just going to ignore thier posts, so stop saying "but afterburner herp derp" Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 386	Posted - 2014.08.01 22:49:00 - [325] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Erm, no thank you. I spent a whole day testing the python, and have had past experiences with myrons, they need it, May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? How about flying a Python yourself and seeing the other side of the coin... the argument of AV and dropships is getting so annoying when people are not aware of the perspective of the other player. I have done both. All an ads needs is an afterburner and it can get clear of AV in seconds. If you decide to stay in an area where av is you deserve to be blown up. Every tim people bring up an afterburner I'm just going to ignore thier posts, so stop saying "but afterburner herp derp" Why? because you think a DS should be able to tank as much as a tank? It can fly for heavens sake, you can go anywhere on the map and avoid any AV so easily.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 167	Posted - 2014.08.01 22:55:00 - [326] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: Atiim wrote: JRleo jr wrote: May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again? How about flying a Python yourself and seeing the other side of the coin... the argument of AV and dropships is getting so annoying when people are not aware of the perspective of the other player. I have done both. All an ads needs is an afterburner and it can get clear of AV in seconds. If you decide to stay in an area where av is you deserve to be blown up. Every tim people bring up an afterburner I'm just going to ignore thier posts, so stop saying "but afterburner herp derp" Why? because you think a DS should be able to tank as much as a tank? It can fly for heavens sake, you can go anywhere on the map and avoid any AV so easily. Dropships can't tank like an hav, thier weak spot is easier to hit and an incubus weakspot is so easy to hit, not all dropships use an ab, nor should you balance av based on 1 module. And av can attack us anytime before we have our hardeners up if we have one fitted. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 387	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:00:00 - [327] - Quote AV cant hit you whenever though, the furthest away any AV weapon can reach is 300m and thats just the forge gun. and AV isnt balanced around one module, fit a booster/extender, hardener and afterburner and see how often you die if get the hell out of an area when AV shoots you.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11170	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:00:00 - [328] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: How about flying a Python yourself and seeing the other side of the coin... the argument of AV and dropships is getting so annoying when people are not aware of the perspective of the other player. I've been operating Pythons and Incubi for months now, and I'm well aware of the V/AV scene from the pilot's perspective. And from my experience, I can honestly tell you that the Python's ability to easily evade AV within a very short period of time, coupled with the RoF and DPS the turrets have with ADS Operation means that it needs no HP buff. No role in the game should ever have all 3 attributes of combat (being 'Tank', Speed, and DPS). -HAND
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 167	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:04:00 - [329] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: AV cant hit you whenever though, the furthest away any AV weapon can reach is 300m and thats just the forge gun. and AV isnt balanced around one module, fit a booster/extender, hardener and afterburner and see how often you die if get the hell out of an area when AV shoots you. Um you do realize that we can't see av unless it's around 75m, right? They can easily surprise any airborne vehicle, and swarms and forges knock around the python so damm much. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 387	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:06:00 - [330] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: AV cant hit you whenever though, the furthest away any AV weapon can reach is 300m and thats just the forge gun. and AV isnt balanced around one module, fit a booster/extender, hardener and afterburner and see how often you die if get the hell out of an area when AV shoots you. Um you do realize that we can't see av unless it's around 75m, right? They can easily surprise any airborne vehicle, and swarms and forges knock around the python so damm much. Dont talk crap because yes you can see it, i know you can. If they are firing behind you thats a different story and maybe why you cant see it

JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 167	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:06:00 - [331] - Quote Atiim wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: How about flying a Python yourself and seeing the other side of the coin... the argument of AV and dropships is getting so annoying when people are not aware of the perspective of the other player. I've been operating Pythons and Incubi for months now, and I'm well aware of the V/AV scene from the pilot's perspective. And from my experience, I can honestly tell you that the Python's ability to easily evade AV within a very short period of time, coupled with the RoF and DPS the turrets have with ADS Operation means that it needs no HP buff. No role in the game should ever have all 3 attributes of combat (being 'Tank', Speed, and DPS). Not all ships use an ab. Dropships don't go from 0 to 75 instantly, I've seen swarms, they are garunteed at least 2 hits, if you are not moving so fast of course. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 167	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:07:00 - [332] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: AV cant hit you whenever though, the furthest away any AV weapon can reach is 300m and thats just the forge gun. and AV isnt balanced around one module, fit a booster/extender, hardener and afterburner and see how often you die if get the hell out of an area when AV shoots you. Um you do realize that we can't see av unless it's around 75m, right? They can easily surprise any airborne vehicle, and swarms and forges knock around the python so damm much. Dont talk crap because yes you can see it, i know you can. If they are firing behind you thats a different story and maybe why you cant see it Ahaha, funny, I guess that's why I get hit by a random forge, and if I evade since I know his general location, I can activate my hard and locate him, and if he's mlt or I try to evade I can take him out, proto forge usually is a bad idea though. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 387	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:11:00 - [333] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: AV cant hit you whenever though, the furthest away any AV weapon can reach is 300m and thats just the forge gun. and AV isnt balanced around one module, fit a booster/extender, hardener and afterburner and see how often you die if get the hell out of an area when AV shoots you. Um you do realize that we can't see av unless it's around 75m, right? They can easily surprise any airborne vehicle, and swarms and forges knock around the python so damm much. Dont talk crap because yes you can see it, i know you can. If they are firing behind you thats a different story and maybe why you cant see it Ahaha, funny, I guess that's why I get hit by a random forge, and if I evade since I know his general location, I can activate my hard and locate him, and if he's mlt or I try to evade I can take him out, proto forge usually is a bad idea though. So then what is your argument? you say you cant see them but know where they are and evade. Also the fact that you get knocked about by explosions is to do with a little thing called physics. it causes impact which is going to make you move so dont complain about it, just learn to fly properly.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 167	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:15:00 - [334] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: JRleo jr wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: AV cant hit you whenever though, the furthest away any AV weapon can reach is 300m and thats just the forge gun. and AV isnt balanced around one module, fit a booster/extender, hardener and afterburner and see how often you die if get the hell out of an area when AV shoots you. Um you do realize that we can't see av unless it's around 75m, right? They can easily surprise any airborne vehicle, and swarms and forges knock around the python so damm much. Dont talk crap because yes you can see it, i know you can. If they are firing behind you thats a different story and maybe why you cant see it Ahaha, funny, I guess that's why I get hit by a random forge, and if I evade since I know his general location, I can activate my hard and locate him, and if he's mlt or I try to evade I can take him out, proto forge usually is a bad idea though. So then what is your argument? you say you cant see them but know where they are and evade. Also the fact that you get knocked about by explosions is to do with a little thing called physics. it causes impact which is going to make you move so dont complain about it, just learn to fly properly. Haha, wow, you're funny, learn to fly? Haha, I can avoid forges without an ab if I know what I'm doingnand am far enough. And proto forges even with a hard wrecks the python, and python gets thrown back when trying to hover which is very annoying. And I mean I don't know thier location is until after he fires, due to the way air vehicles are. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 387	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:19:00 - [335] - Quote so you want to buff ADSs becuase you choose to not use an afterburner and wonder why AV can still hit you. Am i about right? cos that is what it seems like
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 167	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:19:00 - [336] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: so you want to buff ADSs becuase you choose to not use an afterburner and wonder why AV can still hit you. Am i about right? cos that is what it seems like Wow, you are waay off. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 387	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:21:00 - [337] - Quote So then whats the problem you have? cos, as far as im aware, there isnt one.
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 167	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:23:00 - [338] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: So then whats the problem you have? cos, as far as im aware, there isnt one. The python just needs a small buff and this is it. And fyi, ads will never be as good as a tank, due to higher skill required to operate a ads property, not sp, and the knockback effect, sometimes it's real bad, or atleast not with most people. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 387	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:30:00 - [339] - Quote the python doesnt need any buff, it is supposed to have less hp as shielded vehicles are faster, have more resists and have a passive regen. what else does it need cos you can get over 4000 eHP on a python with an extender and a hardener.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 142	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:42:00 - [340] - Quote I think that what people are forgetting is that even thought a Python may have near tank health, it has a lower natural resistance than a tank has, so will take more damage than a tank... so it's not as formidable anyway. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.

Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 389	Posted - 2014.08.01 23:46:00 - [341] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: I think that what people are forgetting is that even thought a Python may have near tank health, it has a lower natural resistance than a tank has, so will take more damage than a tank... so it's not as formidable anyway. no. resistance is the same
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 167	Posted - 2014.08.02 01:14:00 - [342] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: I think that what people are forgetting is that even thought a Python may have near tank health, it has a lower natural resistance than a tank has, so will take more damage than a tank... so it's not as formidable anyway. Key word is near, like a sica, that is more (can't find correct spelling) septimal to damage, thrusters are easier to hit than back of gunlogi I think, can be shot from anywhere because it's an air vehicle, and not as much cpu and pg. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11185	Posted - 2014.08.02 05:55:00 - [343] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: so it's not as formidable anyway. 500.5HP of Damage per shot 536.25 RPM 4,473 DPS If you don't find this to be formidable, then arguing with you is pointless as you clearly lack credibility. 'Hotfix Charlie' Pythons = Flying Gunnlogis with 4,473 DPS. Also featuring 112m/s flight speeds :D -HAND
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3564	Posted - 2014.08.02 06:04:00 - [344] - Quote Atiim wrote: ... clear lack of credibility. Who? Pilots? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
JRleo jr Xer Cloud Consortium 168	Posted - 2014.08.02 06:30:00 - [345] - Quote Atiim wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: so it's not as formidable anyway. 500.5HP of Damage per shot 536.25 RPM 4,473 DPS If you don't find this to be formidable, then arguing with you is pointless as you clearly lack credibility. Swarms aren't the only av atiim, nor should they be as powerful as you want them to be. Max level brony. Pink fluffy unicorns http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos Best song evar.
Echo 1991 WarRavens Final Resolution. 393	Posted - 2014.08.02 14:35:00 - [346] - Quote JRleo jr wrote: Atiim wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: so it's not as formidable anyway. 500.5HP of Damage per shot 536.25 RPM 4,473 DPS If you don't find this to be formidable, then arguing with you is pointless as you clearly lack credibility. Swarms aren't the only av atiim, nor should they be as powerful as you want them to be. Swarms arent that strong, a forge will always deal more damage than a swarm launcher, on top of that they have a smaller area in which they can engage.


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