Cmdr Marquess and I sync'd proto clips (his 3 volleys + my 3 volleys) into shield-hardened Python last week. Each volley connected; the bird got away with a sliver of armor remaining as we reloaded. This is the closest I've come since Bravo to downing a Python with swarms alone (hence my estimate of seven swarm volleys).

Four seems really low. Is the Commando bonus that strong? Are you assuming no HP modules / hardeners?

If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging.

I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced.

... And do you think this is too high or too low?

Almost forgot!


I'm satisfied in that dropships have consistently fled my swarms since Bravo. Their cycled missile launchers make short work of my 300-400 HP Scout. If they charged me when hit (rather than turned tail and fled) there'd be precisely zero chance I'd ever fire swarms at 'em.

I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm skills, just the weapon damage?

PRO Swarm Launcher: 5 Volleys (15.3s)

1. Does your math above account for the python's shield recovery during swarmer reload?
2. Looking at your fit ... would our "optimized v swarm" python be better off with a shield hardener?

Sorry, but I do not agree at all with the informational disparity you claim, and that there is a dropship specific negative bias, Driving around in a HAV and getting forged does not tell you whether it's a militia or prototype forge. If you know your dropship well, you will know exactly what you are getting hit by, by the HP reduction of the hit.

Also, engaging another Infantry tells you what about the weapon he has? I run away if I'm stripped down to armor in an engagement, or not. Same with being sniped, if he is going to kill me in the second shot, he probably has a Thales and I hide, if it's a militia sniper I shrug it off. He doesn't have differently colored bullet trails by tier nor is the color of his suit.

Sorry, but I do not agree at all with the informational disparity you claim, and that there is a dropship specific negative bias, Driving around in a HAV and getting forged does not tell you whether it's a militia or prototype forge. If you know your dropship well, you will know exactly what you are getting hit by, by the HP reduction of the hit.

Also, engaging another Infantry tells you what about the weapon he has? I run away if I'm stripped down to armor in an engagement, or not. Same with being sniped, if he is going to kill me in the second shot, he probably has a Thales and I hide, if it's a militia sniper I shrug it off. He doesn't have differently colored bullet trails by tier nor is the color of his suit.

1. My python goes down in 3 volleys from a proto swarm launcher, 3-4 from advanced ...
2. Where are some of you getting numbers like 5-6 proto swarm volleys to down a python?

For whatever its worth ...

Unless I am in a squad of friends, I will not run my swarm fits. To do so is the equivalent of throwing away Isk. I run proto swarms (+ damage amps) on a Gallente Scout. My cheapest AV fit runs roughly 120k Isk. My odds of survival after volleying swarms are far lower than those of whatever vehicle I'm swarming.

I'm an undampened Scout with a Toxin SMG, and the enemy knows my position.

I am 100% in favor of not being able to solo an ADS. My first volley gets their attention; by the time I've launched my third, they're typically well out of my range. Even when I'm paired with a partner Swarmer, an ADS has good odds of getting away so long as the pilot responds when first hit.

I am a deterrent. I am not a threat.

- Swarmer, Proficiency 5

[quote=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ

Swarms from the ADS point of veiw, explains much better than i can.

Its so hard for infantry only players to comprehend, because you dont have to fight autolocking sniper rounds and your only option is to sprint 400 meters away without cover.

The most common thing i hear on comms with other pilots or said on comms when i'm flying : GTFO.

Hey guys

So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage.

So, onto the numbers!

Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles.

Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels.

Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships.

All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP.
All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP.

At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive.

There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here.

Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes

You cannot be detterent unless you are a threat to whatever it is you are detering.
It's the fact you are a threat that deters them.

Engaging another enemy does tell you what weapon he has. Blue flashes means rail rifle, sharp bursts means combat rifle, one long smoke trail means sniper, and long yellow stream means scrambler and a long line is laser. Its very easy to tell what weapon you enemy is using and its generaly very easy to differentiate between the races, as well as the classes i.e the logis scouts assaults and the heavies. All the weapons are clearly distinguishable by thier own sounds and bullet trail. Easy to distguish asault variants from tactical variants and so on. Also infantry has cover to hide behind and when you aim directly at someone you can read his suit stats (race, class and wither std basic or proto) if you cant already identify by the colors of the suit.

The difference is that on the ground, infantry render at the same rate. I see you and you see me. The closest example for infantry as to what pilots go through is the cloaked scout debate. People were pissed at being shot by an invisble scout. So CCP changed it so scouts supposedly cannot shoot while cloaked because it was an unfair advantage. With dropships your first warning that there is even a swarm launcher on the field firing at you is either getting hit, or watching missiles flying through the air one their way to hit you. (we engage between 50 - 80m max swarms still chase us for 400M). The swarmer themself is impossible to identify unless you watch him firing missiles at you, because infantry render for dropships at a much smaller range than dropships render for infantry. The only way to defend yourself is to run away or kill him. The only way to gauge how dangerous he is (as things stand now about half a million isk vs at best a 200 K proto suit) is by number of missiles. wyrokamis eat my dropship alive. Heck it tricky fighting just one ADV swarm launcher, 2 and i am out the area pronto. Since all forge guns are deadly i steer clear whenever i see a blue flash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ

Swarms from the ADS point of veiw, explains much better than i can.

Its so hard for infantry only players to comprehend, because you dont have to fight autolocking sniper rounds and your only option is to sprint 400 meters away without cover.

The most common thing i hear on comms with other pilots or said on comms when i'm flying : GTFO.

Do you see the tier of the weapon by the muzzle flare? I am not talking about type.

The only intel I can get in ground combat is usually:
Frame - General Size
Race - General Shape
Weapon - Sounds and damage


I cannot tell apart a Sentinel from a Heavy Basic, or Assault from a Basic Medium.

you tell them apart either by receiving intel or by gathering it. either way, when you point at an enemy, tacnet supplies targeting info such as shields, hp, class, and tier. basically it gives you enough info to determine whether to attack, whether you need backup, how to attack, and whether theyre going to stomp you if they see you before you regroup with squad. that info can also be called out to improve the quality of scans and identify greater threats to call out for assassination.

and for some reason, nothing about targeting enemies is ever explained anywhere in the entire game....

also, if a suit or weapon has excessive amounts of black and red... prototype. almost every time.

A damn fine point, good sir.
I concede.

I am a deterrent. I am not a threat.
I am sufficiently threatening to deter, though highly unlikely to kill.

Exactly, which stems from the fact it takes 4 volleys from the a 3-round mag weapon to destroy most Dropships.
They know you can't kill in one mag, but they also know if they don't leave soon they are gonna end up 6 feet under at rather high velocity of descent.

They have to leave and they have the opportunity to do so. They are deterred.

My python goes down in 3 volleys from a proto swarm launcher, 3-4 from advanced, and never from mlt; because mlt does negligible damage. Were are some of you getting numbers like 5-6 proto swarm volleys to down a python?

Not for long though.
Lack of ammunition really makes it difficult to keep them at bay.

Not for long though.
Lack of ammunition really makes it difficult to keep them at bay.

I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much.

Observe the following fitting
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594

It has
1x STD Shield Hardener
1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender
1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred)

1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit

1x ADV Missile Turret

It has

2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150)
950 Armour

+24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance.
- Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened.

+102 HP/s regen built in
+ Faster Speed and Acceleration



Now observe this one
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902

1x MLT Afterburner

1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper
1x STD 120mm Armour Plate
1x PRO PG Expansion Unit

1x ADV Rail Turret

It has
950 Shields
3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477)

- No Hardener
+112 Passive Regen
- Slower than Python


If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret.