DUST Search - Sticky:Hotfix Charlie

CCP Logibro wrote:

Hey guys

So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage.

So, onto the numbers!

Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles.

Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels.

Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships.

All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP.
All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP.

At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive.

There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here.

Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 10 post(s)
Tesfa Alem Until thee End 175	Posted - 2014.07.25 02:09:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Hey guys So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage. So, onto the numbers! Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles. Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels. Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships. All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP. All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP. At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive. There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here. Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes I think its great bonus to the Caldari ships 600 base shield is what they really really need to make up for losing a high slot to be anywhere as usefull as gallente ships. 100 more base armor for my incubus is okay, i'll take it but not overwhelmed by it. the swarm buff is... well tricky? I will no longer be able to ID what kind of swarms are heading for me and when your trying o judge wthere your fighting wyrokamis or not its very important iin terms of gauging whether or not to engage, or run. When i'm flying all I'll be able to do is run, and my tank will sit in the garage until they become more viable vs infantry. Right now I'll risk an engagement with basic and adv, but steer clear of proto. Now i probably wont do either, but at least my tank can utilize terrain and cover. My ADS is going to have to stick to Anti Air, and hope a bunch of swarmers aren't on a tower somewhere. Basic swarms is 1,040 damage per salvo, ADV is 1,144 proto is 1,248 Against armor it will be Basic 1,180 ADV 1258.4 and Proto1,372 As a primarily incubus pilot i don't like the looks of it at all. Since my first warning that there is swarms is the first hit, by the time which the second volley is in the air, well, lets just say i don't like the idea of autolocking forge rounds chasing me all over the sky. The thing is i would'nt mind at all if we had some sort of module to acitivate to give us a fighting chance rather than afterburn and hope they( missiles) explode. Sure we wont get flares or EWAR vs swarmse but a merc can dream right? I'll be sure to make good use of my minmatar commando though. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. CPM1 Candidate
Tesfa Alem Until thee End 175	Posted - 2014.07.28 01:00:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging. I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced. Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class. I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage? For example how many militia swarm hits in Bravo how many in Charlie? Sorry, but I do not agree at all with the informational disparity you claim, and that there is a dropship specific negative bias, Driving around in a HAV and getting forged does not tell you whether it's a militia or prototype forge. If you know your dropship well, you will know exactly what you are getting hit by, by the HP reduction of the hit. Also, engaging another Infantry tells you what about the weapon he has? I run away if I'm stripped down to armor in an engagement, or not. Same with being sniped, if he is going to kill me in the second shot, he probably has a Thales and I hide, if it's a militia sniper I shrug it off. He doesn't have differently colored bullet trails by tier nor is the color of his suit. Engaging another enemy does tell you what weapon he has. Blue flashes means rail rifle, sharp bursts means combat rifle, one long smoke trail means sniper, and long yellow stream means scrambler and a long line is laser. Its very easy to tell what weapon you enemy is using and its generaly very easy to differentiate between the races, as well as the classes i.e the logis scouts assaults and the heavies. All the weapons are clearly distinguishable by thier own sounds and bullet trail. Easy to distguish asault variants from tactical variants and so on. Also infantry has cover to hide behind and when you aim directly at someone you can read his suit stats (race, class and wither std basic or proto) if you cant already identify by the colors of the suit. The difference is that on the ground, infantry render at the same rate. I see you and you see me. The closest example for infantry as to what pilots go through is the cloaked scout debate. People were pissed at being shot by an invisble scout. So CCP changed it so scouts supposedly cannot shoot while cloaked because it was an unfair advantage. With dropships your first warning that there is even a swarm launcher on the field firing at you is either getting hit, or watching missiles flying through the air one their way to hit you. (we engage between 50 - 80m max swarms still chase us for 400M). The swarmer themself is impossible to identify unless you watch him firing missiles at you, because infantry render for dropships at a much smaller range than dropships render for infantry. The only way to defend yourself is to run away or kill him. The only way to gauge how dangerous he is (as things stand now about half a million isk vs at best a 200 K proto suit) is by number of missiles. wyrokamis eat my dropship alive. Heck it tricky fighting just one ADV swarm launcher, 2 and i am out the area pronto. Since all forge guns are deadly i steer clear whenever i see a blue flash. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwLQAFLbJM&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ Swarms from the ADS point of veiw, explains much better than i can. Its so hard for infantry only players to comprehend, because you dont have to fight autolocking sniper rounds and your only option is to sprint 400 meters away without cover. The most common thing i hear on comms with other pilots or said on comms when i'm flying : GTFO. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Until thee End 176	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:49:00 - [3] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much. Observe the following fitting http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594 It has 1x STD Shield Hardener 1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender 1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred) 1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Missile Turret It has 2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150) 950 Armour +24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance. - Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened. +102 HP/s regen built in + Faster Speed and Acceleration Now observe this one http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902 1x MLT Afterburner 1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper 1x STD 120mm Armour Plate 1x PRO PG Expansion Unit 1x ADV Rail Turret It has 950 Shields 3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477) - No Hardener +112 Passive Regen - Slower than Python If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret. Dont pay attention to protofits,if anything it shows a false view of air to air combat especialyy as it currently stands. if i encounter any Python with less than 3K shiels i will definitely engage in my Incubus and will most likley kill it if it doesn't run away especially with just an ADV turret. With the 600 more shields It wont be OP it will have a fighting chance. For the reverse sake for armor ships any pilot who flys an incubus with under 3K hp is asking for death. As an incubus pilot i like the buff to the python it makes thing a bit more fair. and to respond to rattati sure the only difference to discern in tier is whether its assault (either tier 4 or proto prof.1 RR,SCR, or Cr) or semi auto (all possible tiers except the AR which would be either tier 2, 4 or proto and the HMG which would be either tier 4 or proto) But just with the muzzle flash you can tell what type it is, whether its more powerful vs sheilds or armor and therefore how to engage it. You can gauge danger in many ways dropship pilots cannot. When all you to go by when fighting another infantry player is the muzze flash you tend to become quite good at it and it becomes a very valubale piece of information. All pilots have to ID swarms is 1) missiles fired from a pixel 2) how many missiles are in the air before i'm going to be hit or 3) getting hit. No way to tell which suit or as in most cases which way the swarms are even coming from. even with forge gunners you can tell by how quickly blue lughts flash accross your feild of view as you spin and afterburn like mad trying to stay alive. So now our only way to ID any sort of swarmer is to get hit or see the pixel as he fires. This is imprtant to gauge whether or not we should engage the swarmer or keep away, becuase its 30% or our total knowledge base. On the other hand i aim a weapon at antoher infantry player and i can tell down to the effiency % or my weapon damaging them. Try dropshipping every day for a month, you soon realise how dangerous and difficult is to fly dropships and how much we rely upon so little infromation. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Until thee End 176	Posted - 2014.07.30 01:24:00 - [4] - Quote Cyrus Grevare wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Dont pay attention to protofits,if anything it shows a false view of air to air combat especialyy as it currently stands. if i encounter any Python with less than 3K shiels i will definitely engage in my Incubus and will most likley kill it if it doesn't run away especially with just an ADV turret. With the 600 more shields It wont be OP it will have a fighting chance. Can I bother you on a more detailed opinion on how to accomplish a 'true view' for air combat, so far I just try to be true to the stats shown in game, but maybe there's another way You make it sound like I'm trying to show things with an agenda. Best thing to do would be to strap yourself in an incubus with a rail turret and go hunting. With adv rails and incubus level three i can take out Vipers in one pass, myrons without having to reload and if i get the drop on a python i can usually take it down to armor before he starts to panic and run. It has zero to do with the kind of turret the python pilot is running, i fly a ship speciffically to kill other (specifficaly shield tanked) ships. Yes the python can dance but the incubs can as well, i have had little issue keeping up with pythons as these maps are incredibly small for flying in the first place. The harsh truth of it is all ADS will fit an afterburner on becuase our first course of action when engaged by AV or other vehicles is to get out of harms way. Pythons have to sacrifice alot of HP where the incubs does not. So giving them the equivalent of a shield extender is adding balance, not making them OP. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Until thee End 176	Posted - 2014.07.30 01:44:00 - [5] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: [ Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise. You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle. From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot. 1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above 2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason. Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability. As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back. Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this. Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie) Armour: 950 This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile. 600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND 1) They are reducing the price 2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms 3) They are nerfing Swarms + Minmando It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them. DISCLAIMER: Everything i say is anecdotal and was from my own personal experience. As far as i know any experienced pilot throws on an afterburner but lets say i do have a dogfight with python fit you just listed. Say he gets the drop on me, i burn away and he cant catch me, i have the power now to engage him at will hardener or not i can wait untill he's hardener is on cooldown out of range of his missiles. If he has no afterbuner he will never be faster than me and even if he lands a lot of rounds i can easily escape to regen. Might as well be a giant harderned LAV up there if he has no burner on in a dogfight. You can't kill what you can't catch. 300 more tank isnt too much given that one rail gun round does about 400. All in all really we are talking about raising the python in terms of hp into a little bit under a sica. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.