I fail to see how Swarm Launchers were overpowered, even with the Matari Commando. Since Proficiency Skills don't effect Anti-Shield Damage, the highest amount of damage against shields your volleys could reach is 1277HP.

And to do that, you would need to Stack 2 Complex Damage Modifiers, which in turn removes any and all defenses your Dropsuit has, as your 'tank' came from your dual High-Slots.

Assuming a Pilot plays defensively and runs Shield Hardener (like they should), that would lower the Volley to 776HP, making the TTK against Shielded Vehicles:

Python = 4 Volleys (7.5s)
Myron = 4 Volleys (7.5s)
Gunnlogi = 6 Volleys (9.6s)

This is already extremely generous given the amount of time vehicles have to evade a Swarm Launcher's lock range.

With that in mind, I don't see why Swarm Launchers needed a nerf, or why Dropships needed a buff. Let alone both at the same time.

Quit your yapping and whining! Swarms are anti-armor, not anti-shield. They should be worse at killing shield vehicles than armor. It's like asking for the LR or ScR to wreck armor as well as it wrecks shield.

And also, SL got buffed at standard and advanced levels. What more do you want? Kill everything in sight without reloading? I'm already having a good time using standard swarms and AV grenades against Sicas and Somas (and I can even pose a threat to Madrugars that are fitted properly). I don't expect to be able to take out Gunnlogis and Madrugars though because I only use standard, though I still try my best to pull some +75 damage points.

I would suggest, just to start with you give Dropships a fitting power boost. Allow ADS's to be able to fit 2 'Heavy' Modules in their main tank.

I think your giving them too much, in my opinion as a ADS pilot myself.

Looks good to me, the nerf at proto isn't much so I'm not gonna complain, especially when STD and ADV get much better.
With a bit of luck this will encourage more people to actually use them when vehicles are on the field.

That said I don't believe the Dropship buffs are necessary. 600 EHP for Shield Dropships is a lot, especially when they already outperform Armour on

Speed
Manoeuvrability
Instantaneous Reps
Resistance
Passive Reps

Pair this with the ability to put a light armour repper and people are gonna start complainging about them.
I would suggest, just to start with you give Dropships a fitting power boost. Allow ADS's to be able to fit 2 'Heavy' Modules in their main tank.

I think your giving them too much, in my opinion as a ADS pilot myself.

Have you flown in a pc vs a top five corp? A python is not op I'm sorry you have such a hard time.

Caldari dropships do not outperform Gallente dropships. Gallente dropships can stack on a lot more EHP and have constant reps, albeit them being less than the shield recharge rate of Caldari dropships (this is intended). I think that the 600 HP buff to Caldari dropships is perfectly fine. They get swatted out of the sky too easily otherwise.
The python most certainly outclasses the Incubus in a number of important aspects, at the risk of imposing on the Incubus 'stand and deliver' territory. I think 600 is too much, especially when you consider a resistance mod drops swarm damage to just shy of 750. The Incubus however is getting a menial increase that will simply ensure that ADV swarms are no more of threat than before.

I also don't see how you're getting the ability for Caldari dropships to put on light reps. Caldari dropships need to fit fitting enhancement modules to get the best performance out of their high slots. Armor on Caldari vehicles is not as useful as the shield on Gallente vehicles.
Fair enough I shall redact that there statement, using an Armour Repper does indeed hamper your shields.

As far as resistance goes, Caldari dropships are no different than Gallente dropships. Just because your main forms of AV are explosive and kinetic doesn't make it a vehicle problem. You should instead ask for a complete set of AV weaponry. Also, need I point you to the plasma cannon, which has a bonus toward shield, if you're complaining about resistance that much? Stop trying to make the ScR shred armor as easily as it does shield.
I'm not trying to, HOWEVER, current AV DOES favour armour CONSIDERABLY. We know for a fact shield variants aren't going to be on the Table until probably hotfix Echo. The point to consider is that in the CURRENT climate making the dropship with a 10-20% resistance against the AV that can actually be used on it might not be a good idea, at least not right now.

Further more your active hardener gives a much greater resistance, which may present a problem when the EHP between the two dropships becomes smaller still.

Be very careful about CPU/PG bonuses.

When you buff ehp you know exactly what effects this will have. When you buff CPU/PG you may accidentally make a completely new fitting possible that is much more powerful than before. Literally seconds ago I pondered a Myron with three shield hardeners and thought it good that it wasn't possible.

So always double and triple check your CPU/PG buffs to vehicles.

swarm user here. incubus are way easier to take down.

I don't see the logic behind nerfing swarms. Dropships are so incredibly hard to kill with swarms its not even worth bringing them out. The only AV weapon that is slightly useful to dropships are proto assault forge guns with three complex damage mods; and you only kill the dropship if you empty your entire clip, reload and get another shot or two off. Any dropship pilot worth his salt will be long gone before the third shot connects.

Not to mention dropship pilots easily outrun swarms that have already been fired. The lock-on distance is so close the bird is nearly on top of you and all they have to do is climb straight up to avoid another barrage.

We should not be "forcing" people to utilize a commando in order to utilize swarms

Hey guys

So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage.

So, onto the numbers!

Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles.

Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels.

Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships.

All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP.
All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP.

At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive.

There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here.

Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes

So why not increasing speed of missiles?

Impossible to get assault dropships unless you tackle with grenades as well, as far as I know I am the only one throwing grenades at assault drops that are way to confident about their ehp and skills and fly above your head, and then i might kill it unless it turns on reps and escapes the area and missiles following it are useless because their speed and range of flight are small.

Now Kane Spero suggested that increasing aim distance from 175 to 200 would be ok since you can shoot more before first pack of missiles gets to drop, but as first gets there, pilot runs away as far as he can (never forget reps) from the area and other missiles will just selfdestruct running out of range. Increasing missile range is not an option as well since you can hide behind a building or a rock and there is end of story.

You need at least two proto swarmers with 3 dmg mods each to get one dropship before he knows it is coming and as all good pilots know never stay in same place or you die(well you don't because jumping out time you have-more about that lower).

So three conditions must be seen:
1. Aim range: Won't help
2. Missile flight range: Won't be effective considering obstacles
3. Missile speed: fast movement in 175 radius, pilots should be aware as well and not just have zero deaths.

175 meters is a ok aim, swarmers working in area of 175^2pi will cover active zone where dropship must fly to play, but speed missiles is crucial in this area, pilot should know as enters he must pay attention or will be shot and has seconds to none to flee or to eject. He can hide behind something in this area so increasing flight range won't help it, and even with speed he can simply hide from other launches.

So all I ask is speed high enough to hit drops so they wouldn't escape missiles that were shot just by flying away.

Of course increasing all three will make it new OP.

You can pick two of them to make a great deal, and in that case I would choose slight speed increase of missiles and substantial range of flight. This will enable pilots to be more accurate than ever entering action zone.

Tanks and jeeps are as well get affected but for them hiding is easier then for dropships and having greater speeds they easily can hide fast before I aim at them for the next shot. It can get long to explain why but I know that you should know what I am speaking about. Tanks and jeeps overall killing rate won't increase drmatically for swarmers, at least less crying about world of tanks in dust and taxi jeeps that still exist.

What about falling dropship? When i hit tank or jeep it explodes and kills everyone, when i shoot dropship it falls on fire and then explodes and everyone jumps out before happy and alive, hard to draw air wreck?

New stats will fit perfectly into combination of to buffs to speed and range of missiles without creating OP against any vehicles.

Might be too much too soon, Logibro.

A price reduction alone will increase the commonness of ADS and thus their available data, and (at this point even more important) should broaden the perspective of some of the pilots... Balance is achieved when both sides die regularly.

The 600HP buff wont help the python to not get 3 shoted by a proto assault forge. Espacially if the guy is using a CK.0 sentinel with tripple damage mods. The swarm buff however is going to spice things up for alot of pilots. Lets say for a example there are 2 swarm launcher guys. One is your average blueberry scrub with militia swarms and the other guy is using proto swarms. You have no way to identify which 1 is the bigger thread cause both swarms shot the same amount of missiles.

Its even better cause the low end launchers getting buffed means that pilots will panic when they see the swarms coming for them. Its psychological warfare of the finest like with forgeguns. No pilot in their mind is going to figure out if the guy on the ground is using a militia forge or a proto. Both hurt and can screw you over and you have no way to tell what the hell just hit you.

And in 1vs1 fights vs a incubus that 600 shields allows it to take less then 2 additional small rail hits.

Dude, the Incubus is very deadly with its railgun. So what, that missiles are better for anti-infantry? Railguns absolutely wreck vehicles. An Incubus can easily wreck my Python before I can even have time to react. The Incubus has a much easier time wrecking vehicles than the Python. 4 railgun shots at 430-something damage within a second is deadly for any vehicle.

All I'm seeing is QQ. "My Incubus can't kill infantry as well as the Python, even though the Incubus is deadly against vehicles. QQ I want to be able to wreck everything!"

If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging.

I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced.

Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class.

I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage?

For example how many militia swarm hits in Bravo how many in Charlie?

If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging.

I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced.

Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class.

I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage?

For example how many militia swarm hits in Bravo how many in Charlie?

If you want to see dropships run away more, making all tiers fire the same number of missiles is a great way to do it. It also adds a very large imbalance into the engagement. The swarm player can see my vehicle type just by looking. He can see my HP with a target lock. He knows exactly what he is engaging.

I on the other hand have no idea at all Until after I am hit. Which is stupid. Infantry can see the color of a suit and a gun and gauge, before combat begins, the nature of the combat. As a pilot I fly at an empty roof that then shoots swarms at me. The shooter then renders and is a little dot. After he hits me I know what sort of weapon he is using. My ability to engage is reduced.

Ill put up some charts for you later to show the charlie changes over the Bravo. In summary though Its a decent buff to the swarm player as a class.

I have a question for those saying it is a buff or a nerf. If a python, the best build you can imagine, was sat landed with no pilot. How many militia swarm vollys would it take to kill it? how about proto swarms? assume bothe swarmers have no swarm kills, just the weapon damage?

For example how many militia swarm hits in Bravo how many in Charlie?

For your fit then CatMerc how many vollys to kill a stationary Python with the best fit you can think of? In bravo and then compared to Charile? And do you think this is too high or too low?

For your fit then CatMerc how many vollys to kill a stationary Python with the best fit you can think of? In bravo and then compared to Charile? And do you think this is too high or too low?

Depends on the python.
4 volleys for most pythons, 5-6 on the heavily tanked pythons.