Swarms are and will continue to pretty much useless untill one thing is sorted.

Speed.

I've no problem with Dropships outmaneuvering a missile or using cover to protect themselves. That requires some skill from the pilots.

But outrunning them in a straight line race.... that is so moronicly stupid and pretty much is against all laws of aerodynamics and flight. And is really a pretty big immersion breaker.

Make them be able to tank a missile salvo by all means, make them more nimble to dodge 'em but out run them? No way.

If the Dropships really did have a greater power to weight ratio than a bleeding missile then the acceleration G-Forces would be spreading the pilots like a chunky salsa dip all over the back wall of the cockpit!!!!!!

Sort that out and most swarm users will be happy. I know I will.

We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships.

If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) would also be on the table if these changes improve things.

(And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! )

Off topic but an EM AV grenade would be VERY welcome.

Have you seen pythons get wrecked? Swarms wreck them, forges 3 shot them, and swarms are mainly used on tanks I think.

If you are allready at it could you please find a usable function for assault swarm launchers? Beeing aible to lock 2 targets is not really helpfull. Maybe faster lock on or better range or you could make it so that it is the only swarm launcher that has unguided missiles.

Basically a shotgun av which works only up close vs vehicles but not against infantry. That could make it a viable option for sneaky scouts that get up close to a tank and quickly unleash 3 swarm volleys. Like in the old days where you could dumbfire it.

I don't see the logic behind nerfing swarms. Dropships are so incredibly hard to kill with swarms its not even worth bringing them out. The only AV weapon that is slightly useful to dropships are proto assault forge guns with three complex damage mods; and you only kill the dropship if you empty your entire clip, reload and get another shot or two off. Any dropship pilot worth his salt will be long gone before the third shot connects.

Not to mention dropship pilots easily outrun swarms that have already been fired. The lock-on distance is so close the bird is nearly on top of you and all they have to do is climb straight up to avoid another barrage.

We should not be "forcing" people to utilize a commando in order to utilize swarms

We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships.

If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) and the anti-dropship (faster missiles) would also be on the table if these changes improve things.

Weapons for dropships are a bit of a different topic, though we are making changes to the small blaster. Details for that will come in another topic, so I would ask you put your discussion there or in a new thread.

(And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! )

We're of half a mind to hold back a little bit on the Dropship HP buff, but there will be at least some extra HP for the Caldari dropships to help close the gap in EHP between them and the Gallente dropships.

If swarm vs dropship combat looks better after this change, we can look into things like increasing swarm speed and reducing swarm maneuverability. Just don't want to change too many moving parts at once. Things like an EM swarm launcher (same damage, flipped damage profile) and the anti-dropship (faster missiles) would also be on the table if these changes improve things.

Weapons for dropships are a bit of a different topic, though we are making changes to the small blaster. Details for that will come in another topic, so I would ask you put your discussion there or in a new thread.

(And again, I'm not CCP Rattati! )

Swarms are already *insanely fast* rattati. Half the reason that people complain about dropships is because swarms are so fast that most pilots feel the only consistently viable option to get away from swarms or forges is an afterburner, it makes the need for an afterburner a completely ubiquitous thing - you must have one to either accelerate out of swarm range or break your relatively linear momentum vs forges or you will be throwing your isk investment away.

There are a few changes that need to be made here (and I imagine I'm going to get some flames for this) but swarms need to be slowed down slightly: Yes I know this sounds completely crazy, but I pose the question "How many MLT / STD dropships have you seen escape from swarms without an afterburner? It's not easy to do without an afterburner even on an assault dropship", this first change makes the 'need' for an afterburner less ubiquitous, to compensate maybe swarms can have higher lock ranges or travel distances.

The second change is that afterburner cooldown times need to be increased to about 40 seconds for basic, 35 for advanced and 30 seconds at proto, this means that while using your afterburner to break linear travel vs forges or accelerate from swarms is still a valid choice it becomes an actual choice you can engage this module to get away, but it will be on cooldown for a while - you can fit one with less cooldown but it will take more fitting space.

The third thing is some serious changes need to be made to ground vehicle propulsion modules, in far too many cases I see tanks hit that button and just drive back and forth as fast as possible to dodge tons of fire, or simply drive away as fast as possible, these things shouldn't affect momentum so much.

tl;dr Swarms need to be slowed down so that fitting an afterburner isn't a complete necessity, afterburners need increased cooldowns.

Swarms are already *insanely fast* rattati. Half the reason that people complain about dropships is because swarms are so fast that most pilots feel the only consistently viable option to get away from swarms or forges is an afterburner, it makes the need for an afterburner a completely ubiquitous thing - you must have one to either accelerate out of swarm range or break your relatively linear momentum vs forges or you will be throwing your isk investment away.

There are a few changes that need to be made here (and I imagine I'm going to get some flames for this) but swarms need to be slowed down slightly: Yes I know this sounds completely crazy, but I pose the question "How many MLT / STD dropships have you seen escape from swarms without an afterburner? It's not easy to do without an afterburner even on an assault dropship", this first change makes the 'need' for an afterburner less ubiquitous, to compensate maybe swarms can have higher lock ranges or travel distances.

The second change is that afterburner cooldown times need to be increased to about 40 seconds for basic, 35 for advanced and 30 seconds at proto, this means that while using your afterburner to break linear travel vs forges or accelerate from swarms is still a valid choice it becomes an actual choice you can engage this module to get away, but it will be on cooldown for a while - you can fit one with less cooldown but it will take more fitting space.

The third thing is some serious changes need to be made to ground vehicle propulsion modules, in far too many cases I see tanks hit that button and just drive back and forth as fast as possible to dodge tons of fire, or simply drive away as fast as possible, these things shouldn't affect momentum so much.

tl;dr Swarms need to be slowed down so that fitting an afterburner isn't a complete necessity, afterburners need increased cooldowns.

Hey guys

So for Hotfix Charlie, Iwe're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit.

So, onto the numbers!

Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles.

Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels.

Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships.

All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP.
All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP.

At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive.

There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here.

Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes

Edit: would it be possible to instead add a second high to the Incubus and an additional high to the python with a suitable increase to pg/cpu? This would allow pilots an extra slot for their afterburner without having to sacrifice their survivability for it, or allow them to tank some additional eHP.

You are slightly nerfing swarms and are buffing the Python? Ok that's pretty awesome but totally undeeded to be quite honest.~

The only problem I see currently is the small rails on an Incubus but they are working as their intended AV role. I just feel they might be working a little too well......

The shield buff in this regard will be nice I guess.

Of course CCP Rattati I dont always agree with you but I DO really appreciate the fact you are trying things mate. Thankyou.

I think re-tiering swarm damage is a good thing, but ultimately swarms are so under powered it will make little difference.

Buffs to dropships at the same time are totally unnecessary and uncalled for, not to mention the idea of making them dirt cheap. Did you learn nothing from militia tanks, do you consider that a success? Nobody else does.

Nerf to Minmando is uncalled for. Even with Minmando, swarms are mostly just for show. What difference does the extra ammo make, you can't stay alive in one (ineffective) swarm suit long enough to make use of it. Are all the other Commando suits losing their weapon bonuses?

Derpship514. Good luck with that.

OP POST

Hey guys

So for Hotfix Charlie, we're looking at changing Swarm Launchers. Primary focus on this is to reduce the difference in power between tiers. We're also slightly pulling back their damage at prototype levels to compensate for the increase in damage they had from their original incarnation when combined with Minmatar Commandos. Damage with a Minmatar Commando is still higher than old swarms without the damage bonus from the dropsuit. Difference at most between current prototype damage and new prototype damage is less than 100 damage (2x Complex Damage Mods, Minmatar Commando, max skills). Standard and Advanced both have an increase in base damage.

So, onto the numbers!

Firstly, all swarm launchers at all tiers will now fire 4 missiles.

Missile damage will now increase with tier. Damage is now 260/286/312 per missile. This has the double effect of eliminating any lingering issues with swarms being unable to break shield recharge and lessens the effects of physical impacts against dropships at higher levels.

Additionally, Dropships are getting some buffs. This is not the full extent of changes we would want to make to dropships, so we may come back in the future and either reverse these or add more. This change also helps narrow the EHP gap between armor and shield dropships.

All Caldari Dropships are getting 600 more base shield HP.
All Gallente Dropships are getting 100 more base armor HP.

At this stage there are no changes to the flight performance, lock on time or reload time to swarms. We are however increasing the base amount of ammo they carry from 6 to 10. (11 to 15 with max skills). Note that does does not affect the nanite cost for rearming from a nanohive.

There is a spreadsheet we've been working with, but be warned, it's messy and confusing and prone to breaking. If you're brave, you can find it here.

Please remember that like everything else, this isn't set in stone, and we're looking to hear your feedback on these proposed changes

I think armor reps are gonna have to go back up to near Pre-Alpha/Bravo levels for Armor vehicles to be effective again after this...

Swarms are already *insanely fast* rattati. Half the reason that people complain about dropships is because swarms are so fast that most pilots feel the only consistently viable option to get away from swarms or forges is an afterburner, it makes the need for an afterburner a completely ubiquitous thing - you must have one to either accelerate out of swarm range or break your relatively linear momentum vs forges or you will be throwing your isk investment away.

There are a few changes that need to be made here (and I imagine I'm going to get some flames for this) but swarms need to be slowed down slightly: Yes I know this sounds completely crazy, but I pose the question "How many MLT / STD dropships have you seen escape from swarms without an afterburner? It's not easy to do without an afterburner even on an assault dropship", this first change makes the 'need' for an afterburner less ubiquitous, to compensate maybe swarms can have higher lock ranges or travel distances.

The second change is that afterburner cooldown times need to be increased to about 40 seconds for basic, 35 for advanced and 30 seconds at proto, this means that while using your afterburner to break linear travel vs forges or accelerate from swarms is still a valid choice it becomes an actual choice you can engage this module to get away, but it will be on cooldown for a while - you can fit one with less cooldown but it will take more fitting space.

The third thing is some serious changes need to be made to ground vehicle propulsion modules, in far too many cases I see tanks hit that button and just drive back and forth as fast as possible to dodge tons of fire, or simply drive away as fast as possible, these things shouldn't affect momentum so much.

tl;dr Swarms need to be slowed down so that fitting an afterburner isn't a complete necessity, afterburners need increased cooldowns.

I like the new changes(SL user since Crome with prof )

The std will actually be usable and the advanced looks pretty good, it's a shame the Proto had to lose some dmg but if it's for balance I can understand. Now can we make assault swarms less useless? Maybe give them 10 missiles per volley with lower dmg? Or just lower the dmg and give them a longer range then current SLs.

Also, why buff base health for Assault dropships? It seems...unneeded, that's just my opinion.