Looks good to me, the nerf at proto isn't much so I'm not gonna complain, especially when STD and ADV get much better.
With a bit of luck this will encourage more people to actually use them when vehicles are on the field.

That said I don't believe the Dropship buffs are necessary. 600 EHP for Shield Dropships is a lot, especially when they already outperform Armour on

Speed
Manoeuvrability
Instantaneous Reps
Resistance
Passive Reps

Pair this with the ability to put a light armour repper and people are gonna start complainging about them.
I would suggest, just to start with you give Dropships a fitting power boost. Allow ADS's to be able to fit 2 'Heavy' Modules in their main tank.

I think your giving them too much, in my opinion as a ADS pilot myself.

I would suggest, just to start with you give Dropships a fitting power boost. Allow ADS's to be able to fit 2 'Heavy' Modules in their main tank.

I think your giving them too much, in my opinion as a ADS pilot myself.

You cannot be detterent unless you are a threat to whatever it is you are detering.
It's the fact you are a threat that deters them.

Exactly, which stems from the fact it takes 4 volleys from the a 3-round mag weapon to destroy most Dropships.
They know you can't kill in one mag, but they also know if they don't leave soon they are gonna end up 6 feet under at rather high velocity of descent.

They have to leave and they have the opportunity to do so. They are deterred.

I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much.

Observe the following fitting
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594

It has
1x STD Shield Hardener
1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender
1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred)

1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit

1x ADV Missile Turret

It has

2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150)
950 Armour

+24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance.
- Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened.

+102 HP/s regen built in
+ Faster Speed and Acceleration



Now observe this one
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902

1x MLT Afterburner

1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper
1x STD 120mm Armour Plate
1x PRO PG Expansion Unit

1x ADV Rail Turret

It has
950 Shields
3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477)

- No Hardener
+112 Passive Regen
- Slower than Python


If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret.

XT-Missiles
Enhanced light shield booster
Complex heavy shield extender
Basic Afterburner
Complex Powergrid Upgrade

I'll say it again, but I think 600 extra shields is too much for the Python. It closes the gap between the ships, too much.

Observe the following fitting
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5594

It has
1x STD Shield Hardener
1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender
1x STD Booster (can be retrofitted with an Afterburner if preferred)

1+ù PRO PG Expansion Unit

1x ADV Missile Turret

It has

2550 Shields (Under Charlie this becomes 3150)
950 Armour

+24s (excluding passive skill bonuses) at 60% resistance.
- Equivalent to 7,650 Shields (9,450 in Charlie) while hardened.

+102 HP/s regen built in
+ Faster Speed and Acceleration



Now observe this one
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5902

1x MLT Afterburner

1x ADV Heavy Armour Repper
1x STD 120mm Armour Plate
1x PRO PG Expansion Unit

1x ADV Rail Turret

It has
950 Shields
3377 Armour (Under Charlie this becomes 3477)

- No Hardener
+112 Passive Regen
- Slower than Python


If you give the python +600 Shields, you will overpower it. However I am still happy to give this bonus to the Transport Dropships. But giving it to the python is going to be something you will regret.

Not after Hotfix Charlie reduces the ADS' price. Though ISK/AUR/SP/LP are not valid arguments when engaging in balance discussions.



From a realistic view, a Python being hit from a single Swarm volley should be instantly killed without the ability to 'bail', and a Forge Gun (aka kinetic slug powered by a capacitor traveling at 1200m/s) should cause the Python to vaporize[/i]



Your comparison is incomplete, it should be:

Big ship with:

• Superior DPS
• Superior HP
• Superior Movement Speed
• Superior Evasion Capabilities
• Superior Ammunition Capacity
• Superior Kills per Ammunition Capacity
• Superior Anti-infantry Capabilities
• Superior Anti-Vehicle Capabilities
• Superior Movement Capabilities
• Superior TTK

or Infantry with Handheld gun

Not for long though.
Lack of ammunition really makes it difficult to keep them at bay.

You clearly have alot to learn when if comes to piloting dropships.
I can win a
Gùå Forge 1v1 [ADV regularly, even Proto if Terrain allows]
Gùå Swarmer 1v1 [ADV regularly, rarely Proto]
Gùå Plasma Cannon 16v1 [Proto]
I have even managed to pull a
Swarm Launcher 5v1 before, you are a very fast very mobile dropship, stop hovering infront of a guy and expect him to just die.

[

Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise.

You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle.

From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot.

1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above
2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason.

Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability.
As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back.

Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this.

Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie)
Armour: 950

This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile.

600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND
1) They are reducing the price
2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms
3) They are nerfing Swarms + Minmando

It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them.

Aah sorry shall I uhh make it clearer?

[

Protofits is merely a vessel for my point, if you don't believe the numbers feel free to post your own with workimgs and prove otherwise.

You should expect pretty much every python to fall to your Incubus, your railgun will have a much higher DPS than his missile turret. The incubus is purposefully designed to be better at Anti-Vehicle.

From my own experience as pilot, dropships are pretty much balanced, the only necessary changes are the operation of swarms and prehaps plasma cannons. You have to remember a few certain things as a pilot.

1) You are not a Gunship - Your role is not to rain death from above
2) You have passenger seats - They are there for a reason.

Provided you don't fly straight into AV infested areas your dropship already has plenty of survivability.
As my fitting shows you can get a python to nearly 7,000 shields for 24 seconds, which will take nearly 10 volleys to get through. Then you still have a shield boster to rep most of it back.

Pythons shouldn't regularly be fitting over 3,000 shields but as we are about to see in charlie this all too possible. Now even if I agreed with the proposed dropship buff, I, would, still, argue the Incubus needs more than just 100 extra armour, 300 at the least. The python risks over shadowing the Incubus entirely simply because of the innate abilities of shields. The python fit shown has the highest EHP achievable while still maintaing a decent rep rate. Meanwhile the python can achieve this.

Shields: 2986 (3586 - In charlie)
Armour: 950

This will out perform the Incubus in tank by 300ehp and will still have passively built in regen, and still be more manouverable, and still have a greater resistance profile.

600 is far too much, especially when they are only giving armour +100 AND
1) They are reducing the price
2) They are nerfing Proto Swarms
3) They are nerfing Swarms + Minmando

It's too much too quickly, it's not goning to balance an already balanced vehicle it's going to overpower them.

You're doing an excellent job speaking on behalf of Dropship pilots.
Please, keep up the good work.

Judge Rhad - Get this man a medal.

Can I bother you on a more detailed opinion on how to accomplish a 'true view' for air combat, so far I just try to be true to the stats shown in game, but maybe there's another way

You make it sound like I'm trying to show things with an agenda.

Congratulations, you got the circumstantial evidence award.

Circumstantial Evidence:
indirect evidence (evidence providing only a basis for inference about the fact in dispute)

So now allow me to make my own circumstantial evidence.
In my experience I kill the AVer 99.5% of the time.
Your point is now moot.

If you wish to provide more than conjecture and crying please use the maths.
It's available for a reason.

May I see the video and statistics behind this conclusion, or are we trying to use invalid anecdotes again?

But it turns slower and doesnt have as much acceleration and the bulk of its HP takes extra damage from swarms.

I did, yes you do need an extender to stand upto AV I would find difficult to believe they would give vehicles that are survivable with purely their base eHP that would be overpowered to then give them the further option of fitting more eHP.

I have tested both and from my opinion both need something other than a straight eHP buff.

The most survivable fits I found
Python
1x ADV Heavy Shield Extender
1x STD Shield Hardener
1x STD Light Shield Booster

1x PRO PG Expansion Unit
1x ADV AT-1 Missile Launcher

Shields: 2555 Armour: 950
Survivability: 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher
Survivability (Including Shield Booster) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher
Survivability (Including Shield Hardener) 9 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher
Survivability (Including Shield Hardener + Shield Booster) 12 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher

With this fit I was free to rain terror from the skies, provided I activated my Hardener at the correct time only a Breach Forge gun would drop my eHP significantly enough for me to even bother using any form of evasive manoeuvres. With relevant skills my hardener often lasted much longer than was necessary. Of the matches I played with this fit, only one of them actually required me to bug out from the airspace before my hardener ran out.

I also bypassed the longer cooldown of the standard modules by ensuring I always had 2 fits in lieu, In total I lost just one of these dropships to a large Missile Turret who ganked me before I could react to the threat.

Incubus
Shields: 950 Armour: 2747
1x Afterburner

1x STD Armour Hardener
1x PRO Heavy Armour Repairer
1x ADV 60mm Armour Plates

1x ADV Particle Cannon Railgun

Survivability: 3 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher
Survivabilty: (Including Armour Repair) 4 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher
Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener) 5 Shots - PRO Swarm Launcher
Survivability:(Including Armour Hardener + Armour Repairer) 7 Shots - Pro Swarm Launcher

This is the most survivable fit I could make with the Incubus, the lack of powergrid on a powergrid heavy tank was extremely limiting. Even without the hardener the best I could achieve was 6 Shots from a proto swarm launcher, even with 130 HP/s repair rate.

The hardener effectively juiced up the repairers ability to rep through damage, turning the Incubus into a Active Tanker. The extra up time also meant I had the opportunity to stay longer. However the lack of survivability meant that as soon as I was hit by a PRO Swarm Launcher I would have to start making preparations to leave the area. I spent a lot of time with this dropship at below 60% health making very susceptible to a forge gunner or rail turret.

In total I lost 3 of these dropships, 1 to another missile turret. 1 to a forge gun, who shot me while I was engaging a Swarmer and a damage modded railgun. It is worth pointing out that the python would have been equally susceptible to the railgun turret.

Conclusion: Python is absolutely fine, if you actually use the shield hardener (it is there for a reason), you will find the lower numbers of the shields to be more than sufficent. The Incubus on the other hand is actually worse of by comparison while it may be able make better passive builds (with no active modules) the survivability simply doesn't stack up.

The both dropships would instea benefit from a Powergrid buff in order to allow them to fit better modules, equivalent to an Advanced Powergrid Expansion Unit.

A lock-on range buff will give little to no benifit, unless pilots just stop as soon as they reach 160m and just watch you from their, Swarms need a whole different set of performance changes, ones that will make them more skill based as well as more effective Anti-Air.

Congratulations what do you want a medal? You can tell me till your blue in the face it makes no bearing on the maths. The maths shows that even with a Heavy Armour Plate the Incubus can't tank as well as a Hardened Python. So please give it up with annecdotes and opinions they don't mean anything.

I'm not acting like Swarms are the only AV, but Plasma Cannons don't take out Dropships. Futhermore we are in a thread discussing swarms and dropships.

Finally Swarms have better DPS than forge guns, so I assume that Swarm Launchers are the more important AV weapon to consider when balancing.

1. Yeah, there is nothing wrong with a little nerf to our maximum achievable. Very few players, even dedicated AVers are gonna gonna go all out with. We simply sacrifice too much for that kind of power.

2. Furthermore it stops fits like that 2 shotting most dropships, considering the first volley usually hits unannounced and the second is already in the air, it's not exactly fair.