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CCP FoxFour C C P C C P Alliance 133679	Posted - 2013.10.18 17:27:00 - [1] - Quote If you have not done so, please read the introduction post here. Friendly Fire Note: Friendly fire relies a fair bit on standings, so if you have not read about that read about it here. This is probably one of the biggest changes we will be making that differentiates factional contract matches from public contract matches. There is not much to discuss about the exact design of friendly fire, just that it will be on. The bigger question though is how do we prevent people from going into one of these matches and just teamkilling all day long. We don't want to remove griefing entirely, a little bit here and there can be a healthy thing, but there does need to be a penalty. So what will happen when you team kill someone is that you will lose standings to the corporation that you are fighting for. If your standings hit 0 you will be unable to join factional contract matches for at least 24 hours after which time your standings will reset to 0. There is the possibility we will kick players after a set number of team kills in a single match, but we have not decided on whether this will be implemented, or what the threshold will be. So just how many times can someone team kill before they can no longer join factional contracts? Well that depends on your actual standing with the corporation you are fighting for. If you are fighting for the Gallente you will be gaining and losing standings to the Federal Marines. Here is a graph that shows depending on your level just how many times you can team kill before being unable to join Factional Warfare. The graph above shows that if a player was at a standings level of 1 with the Federal Marines they could TK 4 times before not being able to join factional contract matches. The same player has a standings level of 10 they could TK about 16 times before getting removed. The idea being that corporations such as the Federal Marines gain faith in the mercenaries who spend time working for them and will be more lenient in punishing those that worked hard. From a design perspective we are offering more rewards for having higher standings and so are going with players who have worked hard to get there really probably want to stay there and if they TK is truly is probably on accident. That being said we don't want to give them free rain to go rambo on their teammates. :) One more thing we are looking at doing is giving the ability for players to forgive team kills. This probably won't make it in with all the other factional contract changes but it is something we are looking at doing. I am going to be entirely honest, while we are confident about the lower levels only giving you 4 or 5 team kills before restricting you from the match, we don't play enough matches with friendly fire to know if this is to punishing. With these stats being level 10, team killing 4 times (without said team kill being forgiven), you would then have to grind about 800+ matches to get back. We are very open to adjusting this and scaling it. See again the point at in the introduction thread about requesting feedback. :) Removing ISK Payouts No, not because we hate you. Remember one of our goals with factional contracts is to make it something you guys want to play alongside public contracts. Removing ISK payouts accomplishes this goal and makes factional contracts an ISK sink. It also helps make them different, again another goal. We cannot just remove ISK rewards though and expect you guys to play this. See the next point! Adding Loyalty Point Payouts If you have not done so already I highly suggest reading the loyalty points post before reading this. You can find it here. Now that you know what loyalty points are and what they do for you this post is very simple. At the end of a factional contract match you will receive loyalty points for that corporation based on if you won or lost. The corporations will reward those that won handsomely while still rewarding those who stayed to the bitter end. We are not set on the exact amount yet, but at this stage you should expect the losing side to get about 1/5th of what the winners get. If you have read the thread about loyalty points and the loyalty point store you will know what items in the loyalty store will cost both ISK and loyalty points. However, factional contracts only payout LP. The general idea is that if you are a hard core factional warfare player you grind up LP, buy things from the LP store, and then sell them to other players for ISK on the market. DUST doesn't have a secondary market for this implemented yet. This left us with a difficult choice to make. We could delay this feature until the secondary market is in; that would suck because we want to play this, and we're sure you guys want to as well. The second option was put this feature in but somehow balance it for there being no secondary market and then rebalance it again when the secondary market comes out. This would be bad as it means a lot of wasted development time. The third option was to balance it for the secondary market and just let you guys do your thing in the meantime. In the end, we settled on the third option. This does mean that people participating in factional contracts will make less ISK right now, but if they are hoarding loyalty points then they will have the potential to make lots of money when the secondary market comes along and they can sell FW gear to other players. Faction Boosters Boosting LP Payout Faction boosters are explained in more detail in the post on Standings. Be sure to read that before reading this section here. So yes, we will be adding faction specific boosters and on top of what they do for your standings they will also provide a boost to loyalty point payout for that faction. So if you have a Gallente faction booster plugged in you will get a bonus to your Federal Marine loyalty points. The bonus is currently set at 30%. We know that some people are going to look at this and cry pay to win but we disagree. These boosters will not g... Game Designer // Team True Grit http://twitter.com/regnerba

Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 522	Posted - 2013.10.18 17:53:00 - [2] - Quote Love it
BursegSardaukar Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 263	Posted - 2013.10.18 17:59:00 - [3] - Quote As far as the bombardment goes, can you open the FW ones up to Corporation/Alliances in addition to the militia? The problem: I want to partake in FW on the ground, but restricting my entire Alliance to only play a single type of FW contracts to gain support from our EVE pilots defeats the mercenary aspect. I want corporations in my Alliance to play for different factions on the ground if they want, and I want to be able to bombard for them regardless of their "side." Hoping that some random guy in FW will come along to bombard is also unlikely until your proposed mechanic of EVE-earned bombardments is implemented. In the short term it would be more beneficial to allow squad leaders with ships in orbit to call in bombardments if those ships are: A) in the same Corp/Alliance as the squad leader B) in the same militia as the squad leader is fighting for.
ic rbow Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 76	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:01:00 - [4] - Quote Friendly Fire in public matches? It's AWOX time! What about jumping with into a friendly line of fire four times to have someone "grind about 800+ matches to get back"?
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws 1374	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:05:00 - [5] - Quote We're going to need some PSA's on friendly fire.
XEROO COOL Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 35	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:07:00 - [6] - Quote Goodbye Locust Grenades... hello Flux Grenades.
Lorhak Gannarsein Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 461	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:12:00 - [7] - Quote I run million-ISK tanks. What's to stop some asshat from dropping REs from a fresh alt to ruin my day? Again and again and again? Pilots have a lot to lose from this mechanic. Far more than anyone else does.
Brush Master HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 914	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:14:00 - [8] - Quote I think the TK limits are a bit low. For those that played PC, you know how easy it was to TK at least 2-3 people per match. Someone running over your grenade, stepping in front of the heavies burst HMG. Combine that with this being FW where everyone might not even have a mic. Got an orbital and accidentally land a bad one? your ban for 24hrs? I don't see it going over well. Could you implement that you Lose both LP and Isk? You have to pay your teamates bill for that lost clone. Team kill cost. Adding even more information to the same end screen. Don't do it, it's already crowed as is. Adds more confusion to the UI and I'm sure not everyone wants to view it. Make it a tab or something where you can view if you want. Make it a grid instead of a graph, Make each faction a color and show the district you just took changing to that factions color. PS2 style. Make it feel connected and your part of an ongoing war will districts are always changing and you can see that change with each battle you fight.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1738	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:17:00 - [9] - Quote So when you get an LP payout, i get that it is at least partially modified by standings, but will it also payout mostly proportional to your WP contribution in battle along with your time in game bonus much like it currently does with isk? Or will one or the other side of this equation be favored differently for payouts? Basically, can you hint at what will determine the amount of LP payout before standings modifiers? Will the isk value of things destroyed matter in a way as much for these?

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 2911	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:23:00 - [10] - Quote Brush Master wrote: I think the TK limits are a bit low. For those that played PC, you know how easy it was to TK at least 2-3 people per match. Someone running over your grenade, stepping in front of the heavies burst HMG. Combine that with this being FW where everyone might not even have a mic. Got an orbital and accidentally land a bad one? your ban for 24hrs? I don't see it going over well. Could you implement that you Lose both LP and Isk? You have to pay your teamates bill for that lost clone. Team kill cost. Adding even more information to the same end screen. Don't do it, it's already crowed as is. Adds more confusion to the UI and I'm sure not everyone wants to view it. Make it a tab or something where you can view if you want. Make it a grid instead of a graph, Make each faction a color and show the district you just took changing to that factions color. PS2 style. Make it feel connected and your part of an ongoing war will districts are always changing and you can see that change with each battle you fight. It's going to be a new tab. CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics @CCP_Logibro


BursegSardaukar Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 263	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:23:00 - [11] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I run million-ISK tanks. What's to stop some asshat from dropping REs from a fresh alt to ruin my day? Again and again and again? Pilots have a lot to lose from this mechanic. Far more than anyone else does. This is a very valid concern. The TK penalty should be based off of ISK-destroyed and not amount of kills.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1738	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:29:00 - [12] - Quote Orbital strikes: Have you thought about making matches spawn medium/small complexes over planets that then have a beacon that must be defended and occasionally is 'armed' or something allowing a bombardment from nearby forces? They could then be around the same amount of time as plexes (10-15 mins) but reward LP in similar amounts, but based on who wins the match. If you are in the site and your team wins you'd get about 125% of what a site would pay under normal conditions. If you are in it uncontested and your side loses you get about 50%. The same offensive/defensive plexing modifiers would still apply. But basically, orbital support plexing could provide the best time to LP reward for Eve players.
Magnus Amadeuss DUST University Ivy League 93	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:30:00 - [13] - Quote ic rbow wrote: Friendly Fire in public matches? It's AWOX time! What about jumping with into a friendly line of fire four times to have someone "grind about 800+ matches to get back"? This exactly. This is the eve universe where the players WILL lean on any advantage they can get. For instance, General Ripper (or whatever his name is) I am sure has upset many minmatar guys. One of them decides to create an alt to only follow him around and jump on his grenades/get in his line of fire in order to get him effectively banned from FW. Now don't get me wrong, friendly fire sounds great, it is just that a creative way to discourage this type of griefing needs to be implemented.
Gorra Snell The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 177	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:33:00 - [14] - Quote This game is in desperate need of ISK sinks - I'm glad FW will become one of them.
XEROO COOL Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 37	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:34:00 - [15] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I run million-ISK tanks. What's to stop some asshat from dropping REs from a fresh alt to ruin my day? Again and again and again? Pilots have a lot to lose from this mechanic. Far more than anyone else does. Why are pilots at more risk? AV grenades dont work on friendly tanks in PC... Swarms dont lock on to friendly targets in PC. So your main concern is REs.... which I am going to test very soon in a PC to see if it hurts friendly HAVs or LAVs. You're main issue is not being able to sit there and constantly bombard a hot objective with friendlies in the area... you might have to use tactics now... what a shame.
Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis Alpha Wolf Pack 503	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:44:00 - [16] - Quote Friendly fire will be VERY welcome to Dust. It'll add that same sense that "death is a real (costly) thing" that Eve players have been feeling for the past decade. However, how do you guys plan to address unintentional FF? I mean, playing a Heavy, I can't even count the number of times someone has run in and blocked my forge gun shot as it was fired, walked into the line of my HMG when it was on ****-the-other-team-mode, or played catch the grenade when I threw it at a bunch of enemies. Surely, you don't plan to punish players that are just doing their job and are not intentionally team killing. And yet, what if a player is intentionally running into enemy squads with the intent of getting caught in a team grenade blast? What if he is intentionally running into the like of a teammate's HMG? How will you address these kills? You can't fault the player that threw the grenade at an enemy squad when none of his teammates were there. I see a player suiciding by teammates to be a huge griefing possibility, and I'll be interested to know how you guys plan on addressing it.
BursegSardaukar Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 263	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:46:00 - [17] - Quote XEROO COOL wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I run million-ISK tanks. What's to stop some asshat from dropping REs from a fresh alt to ruin my day? Again and again and again? Pilots have a lot to lose from this mechanic. Far more than anyone else does. Why are pilots at more risk? AV grenades dont work on friendly tanks in PC... Swarms dont lock on to friendly targets in PC. So your main concern is REs.... which I am going to test very soon in a PC to see if it hurts friendly HAVs or LAVs. You're main issue is not being able to sit there and constantly bombard a hot objective with friendlies in the area... you might have to use tactics now... what a shame. There's also the concern of suicide buggies, forge gunners, turret installations, other tanks...
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws 1376	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:48:00 - [18] - Quote Vespasian Andendare wrote: Friendly fire will be VERY welcome to Dust. It'll add that same sense that "death is a real (costly) thing" that Eve players have been feeling for the past decade. However, how do you guys plan to address unintentional FF? I mean, playing a Heavy, I can't even count the number of times someone has run in and blocked my forge gun shot as it was fired, walked into the line of my HMG when it was on ****-the-other-team-mode, or played catch the grenade when I threw it at a bunch of enemies. Surely, you don't plan to punish players that are just doing their job and are not intentionally team killing. And yet, what if a player is intentionally running into enemy squads with the intent of getting caught in a team grenade blast? What if he is intentionally running into the like of a teammate's HMG? How will you address these kills? You can't fault the player that threw the grenade at an enemy squad when none of his teammates were there. I see a player suiciding by teammates to be a huge griefing possibility, and I'll be interested to know how you guys plan on addressing it. These are my thoughts. The griefers will be getting way too much power w this system. I could play on my best behavior, essentially abandoning all Minmatar gear I use to not accidentally blow someone up, but that doesn't stop some idiot from literally just running in front of my guns just to be d-bag and send me back to grinding almost a thousand games.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 787	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:51:00 - [19] - Quote I love that thing of no isk rewards, finally i will join matches with squads and not 15 blues. Also there should be a vote to kick, because if you can't teamkill for all the battle you can be AFK and if a squad do that is not cool.
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1071	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:53:00 - [20] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: There is the possibility we will kick players after a set number of team kills in a single match, but we have not decided on whether this will be implemented, or what the threshold will be. May I suggest something... different? Instead of kicking Teamkillers let them become unprotected game. If they TK too much everybody can shoot them. They can't spawn on spawnpoints anymore, instead they can only spawn random, like in Ambush matches. Of course they also don't get a reward at the end of a match. Now I have one problem with the TK. And this is AFKing. People like to AFK just to get rewards without doing anything. Of course now we can teamkill afkers, but we would get punished for this. The Anti-AFK-System you already introduced helped the problem a little bit. But with a rubber band you're still free to afk. So is there the possibility to let us shoot these AFKers without getting punished? Or finally start adjusting the payout more on what you did instead of how long you were in the match?

XEROO COOL Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 38	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:57:00 - [21] - Quote BursegSardaukar wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I run million-ISK tanks. What's to stop some asshat from dropping REs from a fresh alt to ruin my day? Again and again and again? Pilots have a lot to lose from this mechanic. Far more than anyone else does. This is a very valid concern. The TK penalty should be based off of ISK-destroyed and not amount of kills. I like this idea... What about after a certain isk cap destroyed... TK is turned off for the rest of the match and then ban them afterwards?
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2004	Posted - 2013.10.18 18:57:00 - [22] - Quote That TK penalty is outrageous! 4 team kills and we would have to grind 800 matches? That means realistically no one will ever have decent LP standings. How about ISK and LP penalty instead? Once you run out of ISK or LP you can't grief people anymore.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 243	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:02:00 - [23] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: These are my thoughts. The griefers will be getting way too much power w this system. I could play on my best behavior, essentially abandoning all Minmatar gear and almost where all of my SP is allocated as to not accidentally blow someone up, but that doesn't stop some idiot from literally just running in front of my guns just to be d-bag and send me back to grinding almost a thousand games all in about 15 minutes. yeah, there needs to be some kind of 'protest my block' option. Too bad there's no way to automate resolution of this. If Player1 has killed Player2 4 times in the same match, with no other team kills, then clearly ONE of them needs to be banned. but there's no way to know from that in itself, who is truly to blame. There also should be some kind of barrier-to-entry for faction warfare, to make it too painful for griefers to just create throwaway accounts to harras someone. ie: some minimum number of warpoints, or SP, earned, before allowing entry? Probably warpoints, since they take more actual involvement than SP accumulation.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 243	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:06:00 - [24] - Quote BursegSardaukar wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I run million-ISK tanks. What's to stop some asshat from dropping REs from a fresh alt to ruin my day? Again and again and again? Pilots have a lot to lose from this mechanic. Far more than anyone else does. This is a very valid concern. The TK penalty should be based off of ISK-destroyed and not amount of kills. I disagree with that metric. but perhaps there should be others. For example, a player who is almost dead, catching 1 stray around and dying from that, should not count the same as a player who has died from 10 rounds of "friendly" fire. There also needs to be a really REALLY big notice to the player that they have team-killed. Something bigger than any notice currently in-game at the moment. Something impossible to ignore. For someone making the transition from pub matches to this, it will be very easy to self-ban without realizing it.
KaTaLy5t-87 Shadow Company HQ 114	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:08:00 - [25] - Quote No ISK rewards is a bad thing IMO. The gear available in the LP store is crap, if I wanted Aurum gear, I'd buy Aurum gear! I thought the idea of being a mercenary was to make money? I don't give a crap about LP and I'm sure there are lots of people who wouldn't waste their time fighting for gear they could just buy with Aurum anyway. Yes I am aware that some of the gear will be "unique" but having a stupid name like the Federation Magical Assault Rifle doesn't interest me unless it is drastically different to the rest of the weapons that are easily available on the market. FF is wonderful until you get all the douchebags who used to use the LAV glitch to TK people coming back. I will definitely not be wasting ISK fighting in a battle with idiots who are going to TK me just because their parents never showed them enough love when they were a younger kid than the one they are now. The OB thing is all well and good but that kinda favors the Corps and Alliances who have a link to Eve. My Corp hasn't really got anyone in Eve. Does that mean that we won't be able to call an OB if we play in Faction Contracts?
RECON BY FIRE MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 289	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:13:00 - [26] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: I am going to be entirely honest, while we are confident about the lower levels only giving you 4 or 5 team kills before restricting you from the match, we don't play enough matches with friendly fire to know if this is to punishing. How the **** do yall not have a data point on this? With all the PC matches that have been played you should be able to see how many times on average an organized team TKs each other. Double that number and that's what you can reasonably expect a FW team to look like.
Dominus Fatali Nox Aeterna Security 391	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:15:00 - [27] - Quote I don't, as many have said, like the system where 4 team kills will set you back that far. I think that there should be a daily allotment of team kills before any penalty is applied, based on your standings with the Faction. Perhaps at each level, you are allowed that many team kills per day before the penalty is applied (i.e. at level one, you can 'accidentally' kill one blueberry before you begin to lose standing).
cSRT4 SyNergy Gaming EoN. 30	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:21:00 - [28] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I run million-ISK tanks. What's to stop some asshat from dropping REs from a fresh alt to ruin my day? Again and again and again? Pilots have a lot to lose from this mechanic. Far more than anyone else does. You blow up a ** ing supply depot when I'm playing on your team and it WILL happen. WILL! GUARANTEED! If you're not one of those tankers, I have no beef with you. But I WILL get my point across fairly quickly to all those asshat tankers that blow up supply depots for 50 ** ing points!
Musta Tornius Algintal Core Gallente Federation 629	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:22:00 - [29] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: There is the possibility we will kick players after a set number of team kills in a single match, but we have not decided on whether this will be implemented, or what the threshold will be. May I suggest something... different? Instead of kicking Teamkillers let them become unprotected game. If they TK too much everybody can shoot them. They can't spawn on spawnpoints anymore, instead they can only spawn random, like in Ambush matches. Of course they also don't get a reward at the end of a match. How does this help at all if they are just running bpo stuff? There needs to be a proper punishment but 800 matches to grind back some accidental kills is just way over the top, imo. Maybe it would be better if there was an allowance for slight team killing when you're at higher level. Of course a 1.5 mill tank shouldn't count the same as a 50k drop suit.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2004	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:25:00 - [30] - Quote RECON BY FIRE wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: I am going to be entirely honest, while we are confident about the lower levels only giving you 4 or 5 team kills before restricting you from the match, we don't play enough matches with friendly fire to know if this is to punishing. How the **** do yall not have a data point on this? With all the PC matches that have been played you should be able to see how many times on average an organized team TKs each other. Double that number and that's what you can reasonably expect a FW team to look like. Damn...even if they have that data from PC it only refelcts the top 1% and not the knuckle dragging pubbies that invariably crowd the muzzle of my Imperial ScR at every inopportune moment. 4 TK will inst-ban 99% of the players from FW after their very first battle.

Rodger Kitmore The Intergalactic League of Exploration 2	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:26:00 - [31] - Quote I like all the changes to FW in dust you guys have planned, but I still feel that DUST 514 has little to or no impact on a system falling or not. In the recent battle for Old Man Star as an EVE player we found that the we were losing the battle on the ground pretty bad, but this was little more than a speed bump for us taking the system. We just plexed until the Dust bunnies had a few good games then flipped the system anyway. I've thought of a few possibly ways that DUST can have some actual effect on EVE players, but still limit it to mostly FW players. I first thought that maybe if DUST players held a system it would provide some kind of boost to the ships of friendly EVE players. But the true losers would be all the neutral corps and players that live/roam in this area, because they would never have the upper hand. So how about this. make the control of a system more static. As in if yesterday the gal mil Dust players won more battles in a system then for all of today the gal mil owns the ground on that system. The ground on that system can be flipped back to caldari control if they win more battles, then after DT the system goes to caldari control. When DUST controls the ground it should reinforce the in-space complexes, meaning that rollback timers will be put in place for any enemy ships attempting to plex in that system (rollback timers meaning if you leave the plex or cloak the timer goes back to the neutral point). This will make the system easier to defend against the solo pilots sneaking in with cloaks to plex, but will not stop large fleets from coming in force to take plexes. Rollback timers have been brought up by FW eve pilots many times and I think lots of EVE players would actually like the effect DUST has on their game rather than find it just an annoyance. Dust ground control could also cause the plexes to be upgraded to have warp disrupters built into the plex. (the size of the plex would dictate how many of these warp disrupters would be in place, and they could have a long lock time (15-30-sec) . This would make it more risky for EVE players to plex in a system where they don't have ground control. My basic idea for how the space/ground control is this Space Control Y Ground Control Y Plexes have rollback timers for enemy ships. Plexes have warp disruption batteries. Space Control Y Ground Control N Plexes would act as they do now, and just have some Faction NPC ships guarding them. Space Control N Ground Control Y Plexes would not have rollback timers for attackers. No Warp Disruption batteries. Maybe downgrade the NPC faction ships guarding them (although the NPC ships are really not that big of a threat to anyone anyway).
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 222	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:34:00 - [32] - Quote I think the ability to respond to TK in real-time needs to exist. What stops people from creating a new character, jumping into a battle, sabotaging the match, deleting, and starting another new character? How do you keep someone from throwing a match for you? I have no problem with someone being able to come in and sabotage a match, so long as there's a valid way for the team that's being sabotaged to deal with it. As it stands, the team being sabotaged can't keep out the saboteur, it can't kick the saboteur, and it can't kill the saboteur (because anyone who kills a TK'ing player still loses standings). I realize this would require more than a little effort and you can't sabotage every match, but thinking long-term, if we're going to have the ability to choose where the fight needs to go (whether it's a direct decision or some kind of group-mind mechanism), saboteurs will be able to specifically sabotage the efforts to take over a certain system or planet, which would be much more valuable than sabotaging whatever match you happen to get thrown into randomly. I suppose this is mitigated by being able to TK only four times on a brand new character, but what's to stop anyone from splatting from the MCC 20 times to run down the clone count? General ability to respond to sabotage could use some work. EDIT: I like most of the rest of the changes. Don't want to spend all my time on the criticism. I for one like the LP system and being able to earn AUR gear for free. I'll post more positive comments in other threads.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 227	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:40:00 - [33] - Quote I do have a concern for eve pilots. You need to implement some sort of cookie for them to wait around for orbitals. Otherwise a vast majority of these games wont have any orbital support. Agree with the TK numbers...its a little too much punishment. 200+ games for a single TK.... Agree with a very obvious screen letting a player know he/she has been TKed and if they wish to "forgive" obvious.
Karl Koekwaus Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 194	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:43:00 - [34] - Quote This has to be one of the coolest posts on these forums.
Earl Crushinator Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 162	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:46:00 - [35] - Quote Squad leaders better be careful with their orbital bombardments now. One bad drop and standing are going to suffer. It's going to be fun.
Kain Spero MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 2119	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:48:00 - [36] - Quote I'm a bit concerned about the severity and permanence of the standings hits for the TKs. Also, potentially instead of someone having to take action to forgive I wonder if the affirmative action shouldn't be to punish instead (aka the default is to forgive a TK).
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1162	Posted - 2013.10.18 19:59:00 - [37] - Quote FoxFour, how will you stop players from just running around in FW trying to get teamkilled? Would cutting friendly fire to 50% damage, or maybe even less, be a solution? It would make it so that you'll still do damage to your teammates, but won't be extreme unless you keep firing.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 3998	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:00:00 - [38] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: I am going to be entirely honest, while we are confident about the lower levels only giving you 4 or 5 team kills before restricting you from the match, we don't play enough matches with friendly fire to know if this is to punishing. With these stats being level 10, team killing 4 times (without said team kill being forgiven), you would then have to grind about 800+ matches to get back. We are very open to adjusting this and scaling it. See again the point at in the introduction thread about requesting feedback. :) Alright, I'm going to hold you to that ending statement. 800+ matches for this is far, far too much. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've also inferred from this that you need 800+ matches to get up to that level initially. I haven't played many more matches than that in my entire Dust career, and that's not even the highest level you have here. That's hugely grindy. EDIT: Having looked at the other post, this is better over there, but having read that only indicates more how grindy this is. That's a MASSIVE grind, even with a booster. I've barely played enough matches to get to level 11 in my entire Dust time.
Kain Spero MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 2120	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:10:00 - [39] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: FoxFour, how will you stop players from just running around in FW trying to get teamkilled? Would cutting friendly fire to 50% damage, or maybe even less, be a solution? It would make it so that you'll still do damage to your teammates, but won't be extreme unless you keep firing. I don't think you need to reduce the amount of damage for friendly fire, but I do have this same concern. 800 matches would be like 26 weeks playing 10 hours a week with matches averaging 20 minutes. The ability to loose 26 weeks of work in a instant seems kinda crazy, and would be a super juicy target for being to intentionally get themselves TKed.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2006	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:32:00 - [40] - Quote How about... 100k ISK & 5 LP penalty per infantry TK 250k ISK & 5LP non-LAV vehicle penalty Rich players can grief. Its a good isk sink. Disposable ALTs are almost instantly bankrupt. People can still TK if they want at a cost but accidental TK won't set you back (lol) 800!!! games.

Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2006	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:34:00 - [41] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: FoxFour, how will you stop players from just running around in FW trying to get teamkilled? Would cutting friendly fire to 50% damage, or maybe even less, be a solution? It would make it so that you'll still do damage to your teammates, but won't be extreme unless you keep firing. I don't think you need to reduce the amount of damage for friendly fire, but I do have this same concern. 800 matches would be like 26 weeks playing 10 hours a week with matches averaging 20 minutes. The ability to loose 26 weeks of work in a instant seems kinda crazy, and would be a super juicy target for being to intentionally get themselves TKed. Seriously! This number is so crazy high that I can't imagine anyone getting to even level 2 or 3 for a faction. Ask hardcore PC how frequent FF is. Its just the nature of the beast. Seems like serious overkill to me. The 'fix' is worse than the problem.
Brush Master HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 914	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:53:00 - [42] - Quote Some in IRC brought up some good points, whats to stop people form doing 200 hp scouts and griefing by throwing themselves in front of someone for a forced TK, so think about that. Do multiple things like, auto-boot from match after 6 TK, restrict access for a short time like 30 minutes, make it cost the user isk, If the account does this several times in a row, hit the standings, longer delays, etc.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2890	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:56:00 - [43] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: Removing ISK Payouts No, not because we hate you. Remember one of our goals with factional contracts is to make it something you guys want to play alongside public contracts. Removing ISK payouts accomplishes this goal and makes factional contracts an ISK sink. It also helps make them different, again another goal. We cannot just remove ISK rewards though and expect you guys to play this. See the next point! No, you are not accomplishing your goal of making FW something you WANT to do alongside public contracts, rather you are making public contracts something you are FORCED to do if you want to play FW. That is note even close to the same thing. I love all the changes to FW, but this right here is horrible. Completely unacceptable. As I stated before, either (1) Give us some ISK payout in FW, even if less than pubs since we are also getting LP (2) Make loyalty store items only cost LP (3) Give us a player market at the same time so we have another means to make ISK without being forced to play public contracts. And note that point (1) and (2) would only have to be temporary until you give us another means to make ISK besides fighting for these random corporations in public matches that have no impact on anything.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws 1384	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:04:00 - [44] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: Removing ISK Payouts No, not because we hate you. Remember one of our goals with factional contracts is to make it something you guys want to play alongside public contracts. Removing ISK payouts accomplishes this goal and makes factional contracts an ISK sink. It also helps make them different, again another goal. We cannot just remove ISK rewards though and expect you guys to play this. See the next point! No, you are not accomplishing your goal of making FW something you WANT to do alongside public contracts, rather you are making public contracts something you are FORCED to do if you want to play FW. That is note even close to the same thing. I love all the changes to FW, but this right here is horrible. Completely unacceptable. As I stated before, either (1) Give us some ISK payout in FW, even if less than pubs since we are also getting LP (2) Make loyalty store items only cost LP (3) Give us a player market at the same time so we have another means to make ISK without being forced to play public contracts. And note that point (1) and (2) would only have to be temporary until you give us another means to make ISK besides fighting for these random corporations in public matches that have no impact on anything. I agree with this. The lack of ISK is going to create a sink too big. I get that players who have been playing for a long time, or were farming districts in PC for the last few months have hundreds and hundreds of millions of ISK. My biggest concern is if the last event was an example, certain sides will be stacked merely because of player fitting preferences. This leaves certain sides, lets be honest- the minmatar, at a massive disadvantage because the amount of players who use minmatar gear is really low. Even on the minmatar side not many people actually use minmatar gear. We have more people running Caldari suits and Amarr suits. The market highly effects people in EVE and it's going to highly effect people here. People will not be making their decisions based on loyalty but rather which side is it going to be easiest to win for and what gear is available. Combine this with the fact that not everyone can afford to lose a mil a game and this is just going to continue to be a one sided stompfest.
KenKaniff69 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 723	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:14:00 - [45] - Quote The more I read about friendly fire the more I hate it. If someone kills me I'm out a million, as is any other pilot. It's still ONE kill for some f'in blueberry. So when that blueberry hops into the rail turret and starts pelting my tank, am I supposed to kill him and lose standings worth 800 games? What happens if someone walks onto my grenades intentionally or they are just too stupid to realize they are in my way? What happens when a blueberry hops into my tank and starts shooting it with a missile turret? Oh that's right. I die the same way an inward pointing turret on a dropship would. It is nothing to team kill 2-3 guys per PC match because the hitboxes and explosion radii are so inconsistent at times. They should not be putting friendly fire in FW, unless they allow us to que as teams. I simply cannot trust blueberries who continually try to kill my vehicles my slamming LAVs into them, burning out my Proto hives by throwing grenades off of buildings, or not having any awareness on the battlefield. TL;DR- We need team que or friendly fire shouldn't be in FW.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 244	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:16:00 - [46] - Quote Ya know.. I see a bunch of whining about TKing here, but after thinking about it for a bit... it shouldnt be THAT hard to avoid. Yes if you play the same way you do now, you're going to get banned. Well.. Good! The whole point of enabling friendly fire damage, is to make people play more realistically, and stop playing the way they do now, where they see a group of dots, and fire into it, never mind the color. In real life, if you see an enemy 20m away, but you have a friendly within 10 degrees of arc... you'd better pay attention to them just as much as the enemy, and STOP FIRING, if they start heading towards your line of fire! Now, whether they do that "accidentally", or "on purpose", really shouldnt matter. You need to take the accidental into account. Once you're doing that, you will also take care of the deliberate. And its not like they're enemy scouts who can pop up on your radar and "surprise" you... They will be on your radar 100% of the time! Use Your Radar, and you'll avoid TK penalties. At that point, the worst they can do, is reduce your effectiveness in combat. They wont get you banned, though, since you wont be firing.
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 1108	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:23:00 - [47] - Quote I hate team killing. Seriously, it makes my mass driver useless when supporting my allies (they run into my shots so much), my HMG is an accidental team killing machine, and if anyone gets in my stream of scrambler rounds they will die faster than I can say oops. Look, I like all of the changes, but really? I mean, would there be a way for me to turn it off? (other players would still be able to kill me) Not only this, but having it affect your standings...I mean I could accidentally kill 3 players with a mass driver round or grenade in the wrong place at the wrong time. I would hate FW if I spent so long trying to get somewhere, and then all of a sudden I'm back at the beginning because of an accident. I'd rather just see something like "if you team kill 4 times at level 1 you get kicked". Not being able to earn anything from that round, not being able to earn standings, and wasting your time seems like punishment enough to me.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1612	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:27:00 - [48] - Quote The team kill penalty needs to be turned wayyy down. I've played in a lot of PC matches and team killing doesn't happen that often in PC, but hell jumping out of a drop ship can get you crushing by accident. There are times when an accident occurs and that player would be ruined for far too long. I think that it needs to be based on the number of times you team kill in a match. If you team kill 5 times in a match you are booted from the match. If you get booted from 2 matches you lose some standing. Unless this is going to be team deploy you will NEVER be able to drop orbitals. You don't have reliable communication with the blueberries. You can't tell them to pull away from an objective. If you drop the orbital to clear an objective you could ruin all of your standings (4 team kills with an orbital). One grenade that hits that invisible thing protruding from the edge of a crate and bounces back at a group of friendlies and you are done for.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3723	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:29:00 - [49] - Quote BursegSardaukar wrote: As far as the bombardment goes, can you open the FW ones up to Corporation/Alliances in addition to the militia? The problem: I want to partake in FW on the ground, but restricting my entire Alliance to only play a single type of FW contracts to gain support from our EVE pilots defeats the mercenary aspect. I want corporations in my Alliance to play for different factions on the ground if they want, and I want to be able to bombard for them regardless of their "side." Hoping that some random guy in FW will come along to bombard is also unlikely until your proposed mechanic of EVE-earned bombardments is implemented. In the short term it would be more beneficial to allow squad leaders with ships in orbit to call in bombardments if those ships are: A) in the same Corp/Alliance as the squad leader B) in the same militia as the squad leader is fighting for. I'll strongly second this. If members of my corporation are fighting on the ground, I should be able to support them whether I'm in the militia or not. EVE players in the militia are still able to support ANY match no matter what, so that doesn't take away from that.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1612	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:31:00 - [50] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: I hate team killing. Seriously, it makes my mass driver useless when supporting my allies (they run into my shots so much), my HMG is an accidental team killing machine, and if anyone gets in my stream of scrambler rounds they will die faster than I can say oops. Look, I like all of the changes, but really? I mean, would there be a way for me to turn it off? (other players would still be able to kill me) Not only this, but having it affect your standings...I mean I could accidentally kill 3 players with a mass driver round or grenade in the wrong place at the wrong time. I would hate FW if I spent so long trying to get somewhere, and then all of a sudden I'm back at the beginning because of an accident. I'd rather just see something like "if you team kill 4 times at level 1 you get kicked". Not being able to earn anything from that round, not being able to earn standings, and wasting your time seems like punishment enough to me. I use a MD a lot in PC and it doesn't happen very often. Doesn't happen as much as you'd think with grenades either. BUT this is also from experience in PC. I still see blueberries shooting the MCC with an AR. Vehicle guys would have to be really careful as well as squad leaders dropping orbitals. As I mentioned above, orbitals will be next to impossible to drop unless this is set to team deploy.

KenKaniff69 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 724	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:33:00 - [51] - Quote So.... If a DS gets taken out with 4 people in it and the passenger bails, but the blueberries don't because they don't know any better, what happens? By what has been said here the Pilot cannot play FW any longer. WTF CCP?
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1612	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:38:00 - [52] - Quote KenKaniff69 wrote: So.... If a DS gets taken out with 4 people in it and the passenger bails, but the blueberries don't because they don't know any better, what happens? By what has been said here the Pilot cannot play FW any longer. WTF CCP? I don't think it counts against pilot if they don't bail out of a DS that's going down. But let's say you've got a full dropship and you are headed for the top of a tower. You plan on recalling your dropship once you get up there, but the blueberries (who aren't on comms) jump out before you land and you crush 2 or 3 of them.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2894	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:50:00 - [53] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: Removing ISK Payouts No, not because we hate you. Remember one of our goals with factional contracts is to make it something you guys want to play alongside public contracts. Removing ISK payouts accomplishes this goal and makes factional contracts an ISK sink. It also helps make them different, again another goal. We cannot just remove ISK rewards though and expect you guys to play this. See the next point! No, you are not accomplishing your goal of making FW something you WANT to do alongside public contracts, rather you are making public contracts something you are FORCED to do if you want to play FW. That is note even close to the same thing. I love all the changes to FW, but this right here is horrible. Completely unacceptable. As I stated before, either (1) Give us some ISK payout in FW, even if less than pubs since we are also getting LP (2) Make loyalty store items only cost LP (3) Give us a player market at the same time so we have another means to make ISK without being forced to play public contracts. And note that point (1) and (2) would only have to be temporary until you give us another means to make ISK besides fighting for these random corporations in public matches that have no impact on anything. I agree with this. The lack of ISK is going to create a sink too big. I get that players who have been playing for a long time, or were farming districts in PC for the last few months have hundreds and hundreds of millions of ISK. My biggest concern is if the last event was an example, certain sides will be stacked merely because of player fitting preferences. This leaves certain sides, lets be honest- the minmatar, at a massive disadvantage because the amount of players who use minmatar gear is really low. Even on the minmatar side not many people actually use minmatar gear. We have more people running Caldari suits and Amarr suits. The market highly effects people in EVE and it's going to highly effect people here. People will not be making their decisions based on loyalty but rather which side is it going to be easiest to win for and what gear is available. Combine this with the fact that not everyone can afford to lose a mil a game and this is just going to continue to be a one sided stompfest. That bit is actually a non-issue in my opinion, that's how it works in EVE and it works fine. If best start convincing people Minmatar gear is great gear.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 244	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:57:00 - [54] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: I hate team killing. Seriously, it makes my mass driver useless when supporting my allies (they run into my shots so much), my HMG is an accidental team killing machine, and if anyone gets in my stream of scrambler rounds they will die faster than I can say oops. ... If you cant take responsability for your little killing tools, stay in pub matches then. If you are seriously somehow incapable of looking at your radar before firing your weapon, then you dont belong on a field that affects the balance of power for tens of thousands of EVE players.
Rodger Kitmore The Intergalactic League of Exploration 3	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:05:00 - [55] - Quote I like where this FW is heading but I also agree that putting team killing into FW would be a horrible, horrible mistake. It's already a game type heavy with AWOXERS and TKing would just make it so much worse. It wouldn't be that hard to get yourself team killed over, and over again. Every time sending your victim back to NPC grinding-hell. Honestly I would wreak more havoc playing on the enemy team rather than my own faction. Also having racially limited items in the faction store is bad if they come out before an DUST player market. In eve FW if I am fighting for the Gal mil but want to fly a hookbill I still can buy one from the market. In Dust if I'm fighting for the Gal mil it sounds as if I won't be able to get my hands on any other faction's gear. This will cause the sides to be so one sided it won't even be fun. DUST players already have to put up with a lot. 1. single platform game, 2. way behind other FPS's in terms of graphics and physic's engine. 3. Playing a game that still feels very unfinished. Do we really want to have to put up with an MMO type "standings grind" just because some dude jumped on our grenades? Or will we rather just say screw it and go play BF4.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1612	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:12:00 - [56] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: I hate team killing. Seriously, it makes my mass driver useless when supporting my allies (they run into my shots so much), my HMG is an accidental team killing machine, and if anyone gets in my stream of scrambler rounds they will die faster than I can say oops. ... If you cant take responsability for your little killing tools, stay in pub matches then. If you are seriously somehow incapable of looking at your radar before firing your weapon, then you dont belong on a field that affects the balance of power for tens of thousands of EVE players. Buddy, I like your passion but what if some guy thinks it would be funny to stand near I-Shayz-I and jump in front of him when he starts shooting? Don't jump on people for bringing up legitimate concerns. I think everyone wants to see this done right.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 4503	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:16:00 - [57] - Quote Wow.
Rodger Kitmore The Intergalactic League of Exploration 4	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:27:00 - [58] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: I hate team killing. Seriously, it makes my mass driver useless when supporting my allies (they run into my shots so much), my HMG is an accidental team killing machine, and if anyone gets in my stream of scrambler rounds they will die faster than I can say oops. ... If you cant take responsability for your little killing tools, stay in pub matches then. If you are seriously somehow incapable of looking at your radar before firing your weapon, then you dont belong on a field that affects the balance of power for tens of thousands of EVE players. LOL dust doesn't affect the "balance of power for tens of thousands of EVE players" there aren't even that many players signed up for FW. And the effect Dust has on EVE is amounts to EVE FW players having to PLEX a bit more to capture a system. As a gal mil player that has run into heavy DUST resistance they were merely a speed bump that we quickly, and almost without thought ran over.
Zatara Rought MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 1324	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:28:00 - [59] - Quote I agree with Moody. TK's need to be revisited so they don't cost us so much over simple mistakes. In every PC match I play I see tk's. Every single one. Perhaps what they need to do is implement a system where the more important battles are fought with higher standings, so that griefers have to invest quite a bit of time before they could cause any real harm. Furthermore if they do listen to the communities overwhelming feedback and implement a team deploy, an option to disable tk's affecting being kicked or something similar would be awesome. Another far larger idea could involve implementing a change to reflect FW standings on a players info when selected, and allow players to rate others they played with after a match. If this were implemented I would check the ratings of a my team upon entering the barge and leave if I decided 2 many people on my team were 2 lowly rated. Another thing....can we somehow implement a way for losses to actually impact your standings negatively? You will not camp and protect your KDR if you know you have to win the objectives...anyone else see the sense in giving 1/5 or howver many LP's you want to reward to the loser, but slightly lose standings because as a merc you failed.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 244	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:53:00 - [60] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: If you are seriously somehow incapable of looking at your radar before firing your weapon, then you dont belong on a field that affects the balance of power for tens of thousands of EVE players. Buddy, I like your passion but what if some guy thinks it would be funny to stand near I-Shayz-I and jump in front of him when he starts shooting? Don't jump on people for bringing up legitimate concerns. I think everyone wants to see this done right. what you describe, falls entirely within the area of my earlier post. This is entirely under the control if I-Shayz-I. If you are engaged in a firefight, and your firing line is immediately over, or next to, someone's head... Then Stop Firing. To put it in a more general case statement: if someone is closer to your firing line, than you reactiontime+latency allows you to get off the trigger button if they moved.... the stop firing. Because what you attribute to malice, could just as easily happen by accident. So it doesnt matter if they are an awoxer or not. Just stop firing, and find a different angle to shoot from. If you follow those guidelines, then you'll never be banned from a match, or lose any standing, under the proposed new rules CCP is looking to put in.

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 132	Posted - 2013.10.18 23:17:00 - [61] - Quote I pretty much am in line with the majority that the TK penalty needs to be toned way down. My recommendation is that you significantly lower the penalties to Faction Standings and institue a penalty to the actual LP earned in that specific match. That way one or two bad games, accidents, or bad apples don't crush a player for days or weeks. The short term loss will likely be plenty of incentive to achieve the effect desired. The concept of having someone actively confirm TK penalty might be a good addition. That was mentioned earlier and I think it would actually work well. If your corp buddy has a grenade bounce back and kill both of you then it doesn't really do either of you any good for him to be penalized. One thing no body mentioned yet but could be pretty significant is Orbital Strike damage... friendly fire would need to be turned on for OB support and it would be REAL easy to vaporize 3 or 4 of your own guys even if you nuke 7 bad guys. The OB strikes that EVE players bring in can be noticably more powerful than warbarge strikes. Also, if FF is turned on and I park my frigate over the battle and drop the OB that includes some TK does the EVE player get any penalties??
Absolute Idiom II SyNergy Gaming EoN. 813	Posted - 2013.10.18 23:23:00 - [62] - Quote Could you explain a bit more about how the standings thing works? 4 TKs reduces me to level 0 and gives me a 24 hr ban. How do I raise my standings in order to be able to rejoin FW?
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 132	Posted - 2013.10.18 23:27:00 - [63] - Quote Total ISK removal with out the player market running is a dangerous option. I understand the logic that the Devs layed out but I'm very leary of this. PC is definetly a rich man's game now, FW may very well eclipse that if this isn't monitored closely. I recommend choosing from a couple different courses of action to off-set this: Option 1) have a partial ISK payout...say 50% of the current rate. That would mitigate loss and let's be real...we ARE mercenaries. We get paid with currency and and LP...not too far fetched an idea I think. Option 2) Have the Loyalty items cost adjusted so that it requries very little ISK to purchase them and the bulk of the cost is in LP. Example: Ishakone Rail Rifle costs 100 LP and 10K ISK. Similar market bought proto weapon runs you 90K ISK. The trick is that the LP payout should roughly mirror ISK payouts that we get in current games. On a seperate but related note I think that your standings should directly effect the cost of LP items. So a standing of 1 has you paying full LP and ISK price. A standing of 10 gets you 30% LP and ISK costs.
crazy space 1 Unkn0wn Killers 1854	Posted - 2013.10.18 23:38:00 - [64] - Quote Quote: We don't want to remove griefing entirely, a little bit here and there can be a healthy thing THIS! This is why I am here!! I'm not even a griefer! I just want a game that gives me the freedome to do so if I want to! or for other players to do it! you guys are the best! ok feedback time! -please forgive the 1st 2 FF kills per match -Look at how you handled eve onlines FW system when it comes to friendly fire and getting kicked out based on standings, grinding your way back in as reference. Maybe allow players who have standings too low only able to join a match with a squad whose average standings are high enough? Creating a route for players who need to recover standings. -always forgive squad kills, we can kick them if we need too anytime anyways, but we stick close together FF is bound to happen
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 822	Posted - 2013.10.18 23:39:00 - [65] - Quote Well time to put up the ol RE's and explosives grenades and pull out the flux again :(
crazy space 1 Unkn0wn Killers 1854	Posted - 2013.10.18 23:49:00 - [66] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Well time to put up the ol RE's and explosives grenades and pull out the flux again :( If anything please buff the proto mines to have a 7.5m radius again! FF balanced them as using them is hard!
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 25	Posted - 2013.10.19 00:20:00 - [67] - Quote Something else to watch out for would be TK "assists" where an awoxer may shoot someone's shield down, or take them to low health, but not kill them, to make it easier for the enemy to finish them off. If an enemy gets the kill but a teammate did more than, say, 50% of the damage, that should somehow be taken into account. Also, Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: if FF is turned on and I park my frigate over the battle and drop the OB that includes some TK does the EVE player get any penalties?? is a good point. The Eve pilot has no control over where the OB lands; is he still penalized for shooting blues that he didn't even know were in his kill zone?
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6621	Posted - 2013.10.19 00:22:00 - [68] - Quote There needs to be a way for an EVE player to be able to know what region > system > planet > district their allied mercs are fighting in for FW (good for PC also) Should either be a chat channel functionality (to benefit EVE and Dust players sharing the same FW channel), or a new grouping system: a grouping system that has both Dust and EVE mercs in which Dust quads are a subsection of, and the EVE mercs can get the fighting locations of those Dust squad(s), and provide exclusively those squads the orbital strikes.
Magpie Raven ZionTCD 225	Posted - 2013.10.19 00:38:00 - [69] - Quote I agree with everyone else that 4 TKs seems really harsh. I remember, thinking to myself, back when I used to use an HMG in a small space or chaotic fight that I was going to dread the day that FF was turned on. It seems really unrealistic in my opinion. one poorly thrown grenade or placed OB and you are banned from fighting for that faction for a while? In that case Id be banned all the time. I came up with two alternate solutions that work well together but also minimize . 1. Implement a forgiveness system. When someone is TKd, on the respawn screen let them have an option to "forgive" the offender. If forgiven it does not count toward your standing with a faction. If not then you take the penalty. This way in case of an accidental TK or a total clusterf*ck involving nade spamming and other unfortunate events, most players will be able to forgive teammates instead of forcing mercs to be punished for accidental events. 2. Require players to reimburse the TKd merc the ISK value of their suit. Total value if unforgiven and a percentage of it if forgiven, Debts are taken out of earning from the battle. I think that standing penalties makes sense, and a fairly low limit is acceptable only if it resets every 24 hrs. I dont think its too hard to get through a match without killing teammates. Its just on those special occasions where people will get messed up. But by then most players will be at a higher level. This is why the count needs to start again every day. As people get to higher levels it will be harder to reach the max of TKs. This way people can still grief if they really want to. But the average merc I believe will realize the difference between an accidental or intentional TK.
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 26	Posted - 2013.10.19 00:45:00 - [70] - Quote This may have already been touched on earlier, I'll admit I skimmed most of this thread, but if Eve players are going to be the only source of OB's in FW, it needs to be easier for Eve players to find where Dust battles are taking place so they can head out to provide said OBs. I don't know whether that would be through some kind of notification or shared chat channel, but it's important that the support knows where to go. A suggestion on that front: As a pilot, I might want to be able to open my star map and set it to highlight systems where Dust battles are taking place; perhaps different colors for pub matches (if they ever get Eve OBs enabled), FW, and PC, so I know where I'd be most useful. This might need some tweaking as Dust (hopefully) grows in scope and battles start popping up in more systems, but it's something to think about as a starting point.

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1620	Posted - 2013.10.19 00:47:00 - [71] - Quote Magpie Raven wrote: I agree with everyone else that 4 TKs seems really harsh. I remember, thinking to myself, back when I used to use an HMG in a small space or chaotic fight that I was going to dread the day that FF was turned on. It seems really unrealistic in my opinion. one poorly thrown grenade or placed OB and you are banned from fighting for that faction for a while? In that case Id be banned all the time. I came up with two alternate solutions that work well together but also minimize . 1. Implement a forgiveness system. When someone is TKd, on the respawn screen let them have an option to "forgive" the offender. If forgiven it does not count toward your standing with a faction. If not then you take the penalty. This way in case of an accidental TK or a total clusterf*ck involving nade spamming and other unfortunate events, most players will be able to forgive teammates instead of forcing mercs to be punished for accidental events. 2. Require players to reimburse the TKd merc the ISK value of their suit. Total value if unforgiven and a percentage of it if forgiven, Debts are taken out of earning from the battle. I think that standing penalties makes sense, and a fairly low limit is acceptable only if it resets every 24 hrs. I dont think its too hard to get through a match without killing teammates. Its just on those special occasions where people will get messed up. But by then most players will be at a higher level. This is why the count needs to start again every day. As people get to higher levels it will be harder to reach the max of TKs. This way people can still grief if they really want to. But the average merc I believe will realize the difference between an accidental or intentional TK. But what if the dude who gets TK'd is an ahole that doesn't forgive just to be an ahole? I don't think TK is possible without team deploy. The randomness of blueberries will ruin the game mode in my opinion.
OSGR Valdez MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 46	Posted - 2013.10.19 00:48:00 - [72] - Quote Integrating the Eve Pilots with comms and oribitals is going to be sick! And the post battle screen, we'll actually see the influence we make. cannot wait for these updates. You guys really out did yourself, way to go CCP!
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1620	Posted - 2013.10.19 00:56:00 - [73] - Quote OSGR Valdez wrote: Integrating the Eve Pilots with comms and oribitals is going to be sick! And the post battle screen, we'll actually see the influence we make. cannot wait for these updates. You guys really out did yourself, way to go CCP! I agree, I'm excited about the possibilities but some of these things that have to be changed. I'm not QQing or even criticizing. They laid out a rough draft and hopefully they'll take some of our feedback to make it successful. They admitted that they don't have much experience with TK on. This and the ISK sink that it will be make me think it won't have the participation necessary for it to flourish.
OSGR Valdez MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 47	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:01:00 - [74] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: OSGR Valdez wrote: Integrating the Eve Pilots with comms and oribitals is going to be sick! And the post battle screen, we'll actually see the influence we make. cannot wait for these updates. You guys really out did yourself, way to go CCP! I agree, I'm excited about the possibilities but some of these things that have to be changed. I'm not QQing or even criticizing. They laid out a rough draft and hopefully they'll take some of our feedback to make it successful. They admitted that they don't have much experience with TK on. This and the ISK sink that it will be make me think it won't have the participation necessary for it to flourish. Yeah, hopefully they do get a good system integrated for team killing. Because that can* be an issue if not regulated properly. Though I think the ISK sink is a great idea, as it allows for differentiation from public matches as well as make the games more competitive.
The-Errorist Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 310	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:01:00 - [75] - Quote ic rbow wrote: Friendly Fire in public matches? It's AWOX time! What about jumping with into a friendly line of fire four times to have someone "grind about 800+ matches to get back"? Get a Minmatar light with speed mods and run into friendly fire :D
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6621	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:06:00 - [76] - Quote Dominus Fatali wrote: I do not, as many have said, like the system where 4 team kills will set you back that far. I think that there should be a daily allotment of team kills before any penalty is applied, based on your standings with the Faction. Perhaps at each level, you are allowed that many team kills per day before the penalty is applied (i.e. at level one, you can 'accidentally' kill one blueberry before you begin to lose standing). After you use your daily allotment, the penalty would be applied as outlined in the original post. I agree with this, its way too easy to accidentally TK
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6621	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:11:00 - [77] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I run million-ISK tanks. What's to stop some asshat from dropping REs from a fresh alt to ruin my day? Again and again and again? Pilots have a lot to lose from this mechanic. Far more than anyone else does. Tanks need a MASSIVE ISK price reduction with the incoming rebalancing, or else vehicle players are screwed by the new FW changes. Hopefully Wolfman knows this.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 244	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:14:00 - [78] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I agree with this, its way too easy to accidentally TK Oh please. It's "way too easy" to accidentally kill someone, if you're not particularly TRYING to avoid doing so. Right now, people dont have all that much of a motivation to do so. So they're not trying. So teammembers still die. Gimme a break. Look at your freaking radar, and pay attention. if you dont bother to do that, you will get penalized. GOOD.
Magpie Raven ZionTCD 225	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:17:00 - [79] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Magpie Raven wrote: I agree with everyone else that 4 TKs seems really harsh. I remember, thinking to myself, back when I used to use an HMG in a small space or chaotic fight that I was going to dread the day that FF was turned on. It seems really unrealistic in my opinion. one poorly thrown grenade or placed OB and you are banned from fighting for that faction for a while? In that case Id be banned all the time. I came up with two alternate solutions that work well together but also minimize . 1. Implement a forgiveness system. When someone is TKd, on the respawn screen let them have an option to "forgive" the offender. If forgiven it does not count toward your standing with a faction. If not then you take the penalty. This way in case of an accidental TK or a total clusterf*ck involving nade spamming and other unfortunate events, most players will be able to forgive teammates instead of forcing mercs to be punished for accidental events. 2. Require players to reimburse the TKd merc the ISK value of their suit. Total value if unforgiven and a percentage of it if forgiven, Debts are taken out of earning from the battle. I think that standing penalties makes sense, and a fairly low limit is acceptable only if it resets every 24 hrs. I dont think its too hard to get through a match without killing teammates. Its just on those special occasions where people will get messed up. But by then most players will be at a higher level. This is why the count needs to start again every day. As people get to higher levels it will be harder to reach the max of TKs. This way people can still grief if they really want to. But the average merc I believe will realize the difference between an accidental or intentional TK. But what if the dude who gets TK'd is an ahole that doesn't forgive just to be an ahole? I don't think TK is possible without team deploy. The randomness of blueberries will ruin the game mode in my opinion. Thats true but thats where the griefing comes in I guess. Anyways its better than every TK counting against you. Also I do agree with you. FW needs to have more of an organized feel to it and be fought by mercs of a higher level than regular blueberries. Maybe make it so only full squads can join FW
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 245	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:22:00 - [80] - Quote Magpie Raven wrote: FW needs to have more of an organized feel to it and be fought by mercs of a higher level than regular blueberries. Maybe make it so only full squads can join FW With the new "squad finder", that doesnt really guarantee anything.

The-Errorist Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 310	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:28:00 - [81] - Quote cSRT4 wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I run million-ISK tanks. What's to stop some asshat from dropping REs from a fresh alt to ruin my day? Again and again and again? Pilots have a lot to lose from this mechanic. Far more than anyone else does. You blow up a ** ing supply depot when I'm playing on your team and it WILL happen. WILL! GUARANTEED! If you're not one of those tankers, I have no beef with you. But I WILL get my point across fairly quickly to all those asshat tankers that blow up supply depots for 50 ** ing points! A lot of tankers do it to deny the other team an easy way to switch to AV and ammo supply point.
Magpie Raven ZionTCD 225	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:33:00 - [82] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Magpie Raven wrote: FW needs to have more of an organized feel to it and be fought by mercs of a higher level than regular blueberries. Maybe make it so only full squads can join FW With the new "squad finder", that doesnt really guarantee anything. The only other option is to make it so squads can somehow join a game together as a team. And I dont see that happening until we get some kind of command structure and the actual ability to fight as a team outside of PC
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 245	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:41:00 - [83] - Quote Magpie Raven wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Magpie Raven wrote: FW needs to have more of an organized feel to it and be fought by mercs of a higher level than regular blueberries. Maybe make it so only full squads can join FW With the new "squad finder", that doesnt really guarantee anything. The only other option is to make it so squads can somehow join a game together as a team. No it's not "the only other option". Other options have already been suggested in this thread.
Thor McStrut Reckoners 241	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:43:00 - [84] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I agree with this, its way too easy to accidentally TK Oh please. It's "way too easy" to accidentally kill someone, if you're not particularly TRYING to avoid doing so. Right now, people dont have all that much of a motivation to do so. So they're not trying. So teammembers still die. Gimme a break. Look at your freaking radar, and pay attention. if you dont bother to do that, you will get penalized. GOOD. I get where you are coming from, and part of me agrees with you. BUT, if you choose to disengage and re-position, you will get gunned down with the reduced TTK. The ability to maintain fire, either forcing your opponent to continue strafing, or trying to get the kill first is what wins the engagement. Add into the fact that 4 TK is roughly 800 wins worth of matches, and you have a real problem. Not to mention the fact that you no longer have an income source to replace that suit you lost because LP is currently equal to **** with no player driven market or contracts, and you do have a potentially serious problem. I agree that Forgive needs to be the default option to the TK screen, and the amount of work a TK costs you needs to be reduced quite a bit. I've been wanting FF in all modes, especially for Orbitals (dropping an OB on your own squad is ********), but the penalties need to be carefully balanced. In my opinion, being temp banned from that contract type for a scalable amount of hours is sufficient. Or even a scalable amount of LP, which continually increases with consecutive TK in a one week period. And yes, you can go negative, WAY negative.
Magpie Raven ZionTCD 225	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:44:00 - [85] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Magpie Raven wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Magpie Raven wrote: FW needs to have more of an organized feel to it and be fought by mercs of a higher level than regular blueberries. Maybe make it so only full squads can join FW With the new "squad finder", that doesnt really guarantee anything. The only other option is to make it so squads can somehow join a game together as a team. No it's not "the only other option". Other options have already been suggested in this thread. Okay correction. It was the only option I thought of. Didnt feel like reading through 4 pages
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 100	Posted - 2013.10.19 01:52:00 - [86] - Quote Have you considered charging the player who kills an ally the cost of the suit? So if my fit is 100000 ISK and a blueberry team kills me he looses that much ISK and I gain it. In the battle summary you could see the fines you got for team kills. This way you pay for what you break.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2903	Posted - 2013.10.19 02:15:00 - [87] - Quote Also in regards to "boosters giving more LP not Pay to win" I disagree. Yes you are not getting anything you can't get normally, but you are getting it at a higher rate meaning you can afford to run it more often meaning pay to win. I mean, what if our normal active boosters increased ISK payout? What then? Shouldn't the factional boosters boosting standings be enough?
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1622	Posted - 2013.10.19 02:29:00 - [88] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Magpie Raven wrote: FW needs to have more of an organized feel to it and be fought by mercs of a higher level than regular blueberries. Maybe make it so only full squads can join FW With the new "squad finder", that doesnt really guarantee anything. It's still better than completely random. I still don't understand your hostility toward people bringing up valid concerns about TK. I like the idea of TK, it's just going to take a LOT of work on their part to get it right. It will be a constant QQ on the forums when someone's standings drop. Personally I'd like to see people have a positive experience with a new game mode. I think FW has potential to really get this game going in a positive direction. There have been many comments in this thread from people with lots of experience wIth TK in PC. The concern stemming from the fact that it's unlikely that random teams thrown together will take as much caution as squads of corp members fight to defend their districts in PC and/or participating in a clone pack attack where 36 million ISK of corporate funds were invested.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1622	Posted - 2013.10.19 02:31:00 - [89] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Have you considered charging the player who kills an ally the cost of the suit? So if my fit is 100000 ISK and a blueberry team kills me he looses that much ISK and I gain it. In the battle summary you could see the fines you got for team kills. This way you pay for what you break. I think this sounds good, but it seems like it would take a lot of code to implement. This statement coming from someone who knows ABSOLUTELY nothing about code.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2012	Posted - 2013.10.19 02:54:00 - [90] - Quote Also, sometimes its tactically necessary to nuke your own teammates to secure a point. What happens in this situation?

Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2905	Posted - 2013.10.19 03:03:00 - [91] - Quote Forgot another question. So EVE players secure a beacon and get to drop OBs based on some timer. The OBs are not stackable, so once you call in an OB you have to wait the recharge timer for another. But what if you have multiple ships connected to the district? Do they share a team cooldown? Or is it an individual cooldown? In my opinion, it should be an individual cooldown. This would encourage fleets to form and do the orbital strikes, and if no one is going to stop them then so be it, but if the enemies on the ground want to live better they'll have to get their own EVE support to stop them. It'd create this really meaningful bond between the two games as well as promoting some fairly big battles both ground side and space side at the same time.
Eris Ernaga DUST University Ivy League 615	Posted - 2013.10.19 03:26:00 - [92] - Quote Quote: We know that some people are going to look at this and cry pay to win but we disagree. These boosters will not give you anything that you cannot get without the booster. The only thing it does is help you get there faster. Two Olympics runners are about to compete, one coach goes to his runner and says, son! I can't help you win, but what I can do is help you run a little bit faster and gives his runner steroids. This how is how I feel about the Boosters it's not entirely fair to people who don't wanna deal out cash. Also you are creating problems through the way you are releasing things the market place and P2P trading has to be in place especially if you are removing ISK pay outs. There's nothing worse then gear sitting in our assets having no use what so ever. We will either save up LP and eventually 6 months later finally be able to trade it in or use our LP to get marginally better gear that we will in turn loose. The problem though is that there will be no second market to get more of that gear, no isk to replenish those suits, and all the people with boosters will be taking roids. We will probably loose more faction gear in FW then we can replenish especially since FW is going hardcore which I don't mind buy hey it'll just be a huge waste of time, isk, and gear. CCP if you open up the market and P2P trading you will completely destroy the pay 2 win arguement until then it's a bumpy road. I hope you decide to change some of your ideas but I know CCP you want to make money off these game but I guess it's proving hard to do from a free to play game. All in all this is a fresh post and coming soon I know you guys will make changes before you deploy, when you deploy, and in the 6 month to 1 year future. Good luck CCP
Talos Vagheitan King Slayers 98	Posted - 2013.10.19 03:27:00 - [93] - Quote This all looks awesome! But one question. What about people who teamkill vehicles? Players will get a few gimme's on teamkilling other players - fair enough, but what about the players that sit on a turret and blast dropships before they are even off the RDV? Or players that will purposely damage your tank before it enters the battle? There is a pretty massive ISK difference in killing a player, and blowing up their vehicles. Is there any plan for this? If not, I propose a player enforced system. If a player is griefing in ways besides just teamkilling (blowing up friendly vehicles, damaging people before battles etc..) Players on that team should be able to submit a negative review. I would say if 5 players submit a negative review on one player, it would be the equivalent of team-killing the appropriate number of times to get booted for that match.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 247	Posted - 2013.10.19 03:33:00 - [94] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: With the new "squad finder", that doesnt really guarantee anything. It's still better than completely random. I still don't understand your hostility toward people bringing up valid concerns about TK. How are you defining "valid"? The majority of them are not valid, under any sensible frame of reference outside of, ["But I'd have to play differently, wahhh!"] For the others, I've either responded in a measured amount, or not yet responded. Quote: There have been many comments in this thread from people with lots of experience wIth TK in PC. The concern stemming from the fact that it's unlikely that random teams thrown together will take as much caution as squads of corp members fight to defend their districts in PC and/or participating in a clone pack attack where 36 million ISK of corporate funds were invested. THAT, is a valid concern. However, I believe that with the right game mechanics and filters, the issue will primarily resolve itself. First off, by limiting FW entry to those players with some minimum WP accumilation. Secondly, with really big obnoxious (You Have Invoked Penalty) HUD feedback. And other sanctions, including but limited to: - immediate boot from battle and FW ban - having to pay for damages, as someone recently suggested - related to that, possibly having 1mil ISK you have to put "in escrow" before joining battle. And if your escrow account drops below minimum, you get ejected. This last part should be easy for any kind of decent player. Im not that serious a player, but I've just slowly accumilated 10mil without trying, that I'm just sitting on, lol.
Magpie Raven ZionTCD 227	Posted - 2013.10.19 03:47:00 - [95] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: With the new "squad finder", that doesnt really guarantee anything. It's still better than completely random. I still don't understand your hostility toward people bringing up valid concerns about TK. How are you defining "valid"? The majority of them are not valid, under any sensible frame of reference outside of, ["But I'd have to play differently, wahhh!"] For the others, I've either responded in a measured amount, or not yet responded. Quote: There have been many comments in this thread from people with lots of experience wIth TK in PC. The concern stemming from the fact that it's unlikely that random teams thrown together will take as much caution as squads of corp members fight to defend their districts in PC and/or participating in a clone pack attack where 36 million ISK of corporate funds were invested. THAT, is a valid concern. However, I believe that with the right game mechanics and filters, the issue will primarily resolve itself. First off, by limiting FW entry to those players with some minimum WP accumilation. Secondly, with really big obnoxious (You Have Invoked Penalty) HUD feedback. And other sanctions, including but limited to: - immediate boot from battle and FW ban - having to pay for damages, as someone recently suggested - related to that, possibly having 1mil ISK you have to put "in escrow" before joining battle. And if your escrow account drops below minimum, you get ejected. This last part should be easy for any kind of decent player. Im not that serious a player, but I've just slowly accumilated 10mil without trying, that I'm just sitting on, lol. That last part is a good idea. If a merc had to give the Faction militia some kind of collateral that would help make sure serious player are in FW. It makes sense too. The faction would want insurance to make sure the merc does not cause unnesesary damages to its property. +1
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1622	Posted - 2013.10.19 04:06:00 - [96] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: With the new "squad finder", that doesnt really guarantee anything. It's still better than completely random. I still don't understand your hostility toward people bringing up valid concerns about TK. How are you defining "valid"? The majority of them are not valid, under any sensible frame of reference outside of, ["But I'd have to play differently, wahhh!"] For the others, I've either responded in a measured amount, or not yet responded. Quote: There have been many comments in this thread from people with lots of experience wIth TK in PC. The concern stemming from the fact that it's unlikely that random teams thrown together will take as much caution as squads of corp members fight to defend their districts in PC and/or participating in a clone pack attack where 36 million ISK of corporate funds were invested. THAT, is a valid concern. However, I believe that with the right game mechanics and filters, the issue will primarily resolve itself. First off, by limiting FW entry to those players with some minimum WP accumilation. Secondly, with really big obnoxious (You Have Invoked Penalty) HUD feedback. And other sanctions, including but limited to: - immediate boot from battle and FW ban - having to pay for damages, as someone recently suggested - related to that, possibly having 1mil ISK you have to put "in escrow" before joining battle. And if your escrow account drops below minimum, you get ejected. This last part should be easy for any kind of decent player. Im not that serious a player, but I've just slowly accumilated 10mil without trying, that I'm just sitting on, lol. So basically you are saying that although you don't play that much or have any experience with TK in Dust that you feel that you've got a good enough grasp on the play style necessary to avoid 4 team kills over the course of 100s of matches necessary to prevent losing all the standing you've worked for? I see a lot of people that are concerned that the penalties are too stiff. I've played in somewhere between 50 and a 100 PC matches and I can recall 3 team kills and I use a MD. One of them was me trying to drop a nano hive real quick and accidentally firing a round in the face of a teammate. Another was a teammate running out in front of me while driving an LAV. The other was a careless grenade. Based on my experience can you see how I might have come to my opinion?
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 248	Posted - 2013.10.19 05:13:00 - [97] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: So basically you are saying that although you don't consider yourself a serious player or have any experience with TK in Dust that you feel that you've got a good enough grasp on the play style necessary to avoid 4 team kills over the course of 100s of matches necessary to prevent losing all the standing you've worked for? I see a lot of people that are concerned that the penalties are too stiff. I've played in somewhere between 50 and a 100 PC matches and I can recall 3 team kills and I use a MD. One of them was me trying to drop a nano hive real quick and accidentally firing a round in the face of a teammate. Another was a teammate running out in front of me while driving an LAV. The other was a careless grenade. Based on my experience can you see how I might have come to my opinion? Perhaps I misunderstood or misread. I thought it was on the order of 4 team kills over a short period of time or number of matches. in fact, the dev post that starts this thread off, seems to specifically say "4 or 5 team kills [in the same match]"
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 332	Posted - 2013.10.19 06:00:00 - [98] - Quote The mind boggles at the possible fun a griefer, or squad of griefers, could have with an RE user. Assuming that shooting remote explosives still sets them off, getting yourself killed is the simplest thing: gather 'round a friendly explosive and shoot it. I can just see a full squad of Gallente scum infiltrating our war effort and cosying up to one of my little surprises. Boom: a crushing blow to my standings. Repeat a few times, and I'm exiled from my faction because people are intentionally getting killed by friendly traps. This change is interesting, and needed, but there's going to be a broad issue with explosives, generally. Exempt them, and they become the tool of TK-murderers. Include them, and they become the victim of TK-suicides.
crazy space 1 Unkn0wn Killers 1860	Posted - 2013.10.19 07:55:00 - [99] - Quote Have the eve player be unmutable and talk over everyones channels. Bam genius
DeeJay One Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 95	Posted - 2013.10.19 08:04:00 - [100] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: There needs to be a way for an EVE player to be able to know what region > system > planet > district their allied mercs are fighting in for FW (good for PC also) Should either be a chat channel functionality (to benefit EVE and Dust players sharing the same FW channel), or a new grouping system: a grouping system that has both Dust and EVE mercs in which Dust quads are a subsection of, and the EVE mercs can get the fighting locations of those Dust squad(s), and provide exclusively those squads the orbital strikes. Quote from OP: CCP SoxFour wrote: There are other changes we plan to make as well such as having it be the EVE player that earns the orbital strike by capturing a beacon above the district, having the EVE player get LP and a kill report in EVE for providing the orbital strike, and having a battle browser of some kind in EVE so EVE factional warfare pilots can find DUST matches to provide these orbital strikes to Also we want to look at letting the EVE pilot join the team voice channel to help coordinate the strike. :D

Seed Dren SyNergy Gaming EoN. 108	Posted - 2013.10.19 08:38:00 - [101] - Quote I don't know if it has been said already but using MAG as an example one of the ways to combat team killing was that friendly bullets would take twice as long to kill a teammate, so with full health and a friendly kills you it means he really wanted to kill you. And grenades need like a 75% friendly damage reduction. So mistakes will still be made but a lot less with a small chance to grief if is really necessary. There solved your issue. Dont be afraid to use this great idea just because is coming from another. As the say learn from the past so you don't make the same mistakes.
Zatara Rought MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 1347	Posted - 2013.10.19 09:50:00 - [102] - Quote Seed Dren wrote: I don't know if it has been said already but using MAG as an example one of the ways to combat team killing was that friendly bullets would take twice as long to kill a teammate, so with full health and a friendly kills you it means he really wanted to kill you. And grenades need like a 75% friendly damage reduction. So mistakes will still be made but a lot less with a small chance to grief if is really necessary. There solved your issue. Dont be afraid to use this great idea just because is coming from another. As the say learn from the past so you don't make the same mistakes. Bam. I somewhat agree. Although grenades having a 75% reduction? nah. 25% off both if you're doing this. then FW is a transition environment for full FF. You don't want people cooking cores and tossing em into 1v1's just cause they know the core will only kill one where normally it would kill both. Heavies running into clear a room while their squads chuck nades into a room from behind them pisses me off as it is. Also: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116266&find=unread Suggestions where you won't get buried and your comment will be answered.
steadyhand amarr MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN. 1603	Posted - 2013.10.19 10:10:00 - [103] - Quote FF punishment Is way to high I would say isk fine = to cost of the suit rather standing loss where a misplaced orbittal could wipe out your whole standing. And that could happen easily with the time lag between request and fire
Karl Koekwaus Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 194	Posted - 2013.10.19 10:57:00 - [104] - Quote an ISK fine won't work in Dust, why would anyone care for isk when the only thing they use is starter fits to Teamkill? The only ones who will be hurt by a ISK fine is people who killed a teammate on accident.

CCP Nullarbor C C P C C P Alliance 2815	Posted - 2013.10.19 11:37:00 - [105] - Quote Regarding friendly fire suiciding as a means of griefing, we were brainstorming an idea where selecting the punish option on the death screen would cost the person being team killed some standing or maybe ISK, but relative to their standing level. So the experienced FW players could spend some of their standings to punish the players team killing, without it affecting them too much and prevent people from suicide griefing because they wouldn't have any standings available to spend for punishment (it also being expensive at low levels). Any thoughts on something like this to help police FF punishment?

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1466	Posted - 2013.10.19 11:41:00 - [106] - Quote With friendly fire i can think of several problems with this Mostly what is defined as a teamkill? I like to run tanks and alot of the time a stupid bluedot will crash into my tank with his LAV and it may even have 2 passengers in it, now did i teamkill? or did he suicide? You can say the same thing if a bluedot crosses into the path of your minigun for example Your actions can only do so much but if a bluedots action causes the bluedots death is it classed as suicide or a teamkill If CCP decide to class friendly damage as an automatic teamkill then vehicle users cannot tank effectively because for trolling and griefing al they have to do is crash 4 LAVs into the tank to get them booted or jump in front of the tank when its moving Also with vehicle pilots if gunners use the tank to teamkill will the gunner just get booted? frankly i hope so, the pilot cannot help who jumps into his tank or dropship because lolno locking feature yet but i dont want the tank or vehicle to blow up as a bug because he gets booted Looks like i will only be able to tank in FW after i get enough games to not get booted
shaman oga Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 789	Posted - 2013.10.19 11:41:00 - [107] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Regarding friendly fire suiciding as a means of griefing, we were brainstorming an idea where selecting the punish option on the death screen would cost the person being team killed some standing or maybe ISK, but relative to their standing level. So the experienced FW players could spend some of their standings to punish the players team killing, without it affecting them too much and prevent people from suicide griefing because they wouldn't have any standings available to spend for punishment (it also being expensive at low levels). Any thoughts on something like this to help police FF punishment? Allow friendly fire on teamkillers without punishment for legit players. Also a vote to kick is needed.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 1466	Posted - 2013.10.19 11:50:00 - [108] - Quote shaman oga wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: Regarding friendly fire suiciding as a means of griefing, we were brainstorming an idea where selecting the punish option on the death screen would cost the person being team killed some standing or maybe ISK, but relative to their standing level. So the experienced FW players could spend some of their standings to punish the players team killing, without it affecting them too much and prevent people from suicide griefing because they wouldn't have any standings available to spend for punishment (it also being expensive at low levels). Any thoughts on something like this to help police FF punishment? Allow friendly fire on teamkillers without punishment for legit players. Also a vote to kick is needed. VTK can be abused if retards try and vote out a legit player, it worked in MAG it can work here easily enough Maybe only VTK is allowed with a teamkill but if someone jumps infront of my tank then i could get voted out because of a troll who jumped in front of my tank Doesnt work Allow FF on teamkillers with no punishment to the legit player is better but if its an accidental teamkill you may get whacked for an idiot running in front of your crossfire Either one doesnt work because trolls be trolls the legit players will be removed or killed as a consequence
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4008	Posted - 2013.10.19 12:01:00 - [109] - Quote I think standings loss from FF should also be partially based on isk loss. It would be laughably easy to grief tankers with friendly fire especially once the small turrets no longer become a necessity as you'd only take 1 kill penalty for blowing up their expensive tank. It'd also be laughably easy to do so if you're on the same team - I can quite easily see someone trolling with a breach forge gun slamming rounds into the weakspot. Similarly, prototype suits are at high risk of deliberate friendly fire.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1166	Posted - 2013.10.19 12:21:00 - [110] - Quote Another thing you'll probably see some people do is just to run around and fire at friendly tanks without killing them. With that I mean that it will be laughably easy to just take out 90% of a tank's health leaving it either defenceless against the enemy team or take him completely out of the match by forcing him to retreat. A tanker can do nothing against things like that since the person doing it isn't hindered or penalized in any way because he doesn't actually kill the tank, but just keeps it at minimal health left. The tanker also can't teamkill him because then he'll be penalized himself plus it won't stop the person from doing it as he'll just respawn and continue. People can also do the exact same thing to infantry, but it's just a much worse situation for the tanker as he'll lose millions of ISK with the loss of a tank. What's your answer to such a thing happening?

Argo Filch Cannonfodder PMC 60	Posted - 2013.10.19 12:26:00 - [111] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: What's your answer to such a thing happening? Team deployment. Until then keep your tanks on hold.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1166	Posted - 2013.10.19 12:39:00 - [112] - Quote Argo Filch wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: What's your answer to such a thing happening? Team deployment. Until then keep your tanks on hold. Haha, that's funny unless you expect every FW match to consist of teams. Plus what then happens when someone disconnects and a random joins? Edit: I would love to get FF implemented, but I just can't see how it can be done properly in pub matches. I hate to say it, but I really think FF should just be kept for corp matches.
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1072	Posted - 2013.10.19 12:41:00 - [113] - Quote shaman oga wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: Regarding friendly fire suiciding as a means of griefing, we were brainstorming an idea where selecting the punish option on the death screen would cost the person being team killed some standing or maybe ISK, but relative to their standing level. So the experienced FW players could spend some of their standings to punish the players team killing, without it affecting them too much and prevent people from suicide griefing because they wouldn't have any standings available to spend for punishment (it also being expensive at low levels). Any thoughts on something like this to help police FF punishment? Allow friendly fire on teamkillers without punishment for legit players. Also a vote to kick is needed. There would be the big problem how the game decides who a legit player is.
Brush Master HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 919	Posted - 2013.10.19 12:46:00 - [114] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Regarding friendly fire suiciding as a means of griefing, we were brainstorming an idea where selecting the punish option on the death screen would cost the person being team killed some standing or maybe ISK, but relative to their standing level. So the experienced FW players could spend some of their standings to punish the players team killing, without it affecting them too much and prevent people from suicide griefing because they wouldn't have any standings available to spend for punishment (it also being expensive at low levels). Any thoughts on something like this to help police FF punishment? Why not remove the entire reason that someone would be griefing, to low others standings and cost them incomes. You do this by doing the by Kicking someone from the match after they reached 5 TK The person TK gets paid the the ISK of their suit destroyed from the one that did the TK. If the TKer has no isk to pay for the friendly TK, auto-kick them. If there are two matches in a row that a player is kicked from a game for TKing, then make it effect their standings, implement an escalating delay to rejoin FW How do these couple items not make everyone happy?

CCP Nullarbor C C P C C P Alliance 2816	Posted - 2013.10.19 12:56:00 - [115] - Quote Brush Master wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: Regarding friendly fire suiciding as a means of griefing, we were brainstorming an idea where selecting the punish option on the death screen would cost the person being team killed some standing or maybe ISK, but relative to their standing level. So the experienced FW players could spend some of their standings to punish the players team killing, without it affecting them too much and prevent people from suicide griefing because they wouldn't have any standings available to spend for punishment (it also being expensive at low levels). Any thoughts on something like this to help police FF punishment? Why not remove the entire reason that someone would be griefing, to low others standings and /or cost others income. You do this by doing the by Kicking someone from the match after they reached 5 TK The person TK gets paid the the ISK of their suit destroyed from the one that did the TK. If the TKer has no isk to pay for the friendly TK, auto-kick them. If there are two matches in a row that a player is kicked from a game for TKing, then make it effect their standings, implement an escalating delay to rejoin FW How do these couple items not make everyone happy, deals with TKing effectively and seems much simpler codewise. I'm talking about people intentionally being team killed, in order to apply the TK penalty to other players.

Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 250	Posted - 2013.10.19 12:58:00 - [116] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: If CCP decide to class friendly damage as an automatic teamkill then vehicle users cannot tank effectively because for trolling and griefing al they have to do is crash 4 LAVs into the tank to get them booted or jump in front of the tank when its moving one of those has an easy fix. on of them is already fixed. For the first one: simply dont allow "friendly" vehicle crashes any more For the second: have you tried this anytime recently? Coincidentally, I TRIED to kill an enemy with a tank just recently. It was quite difficult! The enemy only actually died, when I caught them on an upcropping of terrain that kept them still/slowed them down while the tank kept moving.
Brush Master HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 919	Posted - 2013.10.19 13:19:00 - [117] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Brush Master wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: Regarding friendly fire suiciding as a means of griefing, we were brainstorming an idea where selecting the punish option on the death screen would cost the person being team killed some standing or maybe ISK, but relative to their standing level. So the experienced FW players could spend some of their standings to punish the players team killing, without it affecting them too much and prevent people from suicide griefing because they wouldn't have any standings available to spend for punishment (it also being expensive at low levels). Any thoughts on something like this to help police FF punishment? Why not remove the entire reason that someone would be griefing, to low others standings and /or cost others income. You do this by doing the by Kicking someone from the match after they reached 5 TK The person TK gets paid the the ISK of their suit destroyed from the one that did the TK. If the TKer has no isk to pay for the friendly TK, auto-kick them. If there are two matches in a row that a player is kicked from a game for TKing, then make it effect their standings, implement an escalating delay to rejoin FW How do these couple items not make everyone happy, deals with TKing effectively and seems much simpler codewise. I'm talking about people intentionally being team killed, in order to apply the TK penalty to other players. There is no way for you to tell the difference between accidental and intentional. Plus I'm talking about suicide griefers as well. If you look at PC match TK you will see a clear pattern that even in the most organized teams, you will get a couple TK per match and we are talking about different corps in a FW battle. What I'm saying is don't make individual TKs effect anything but look for patterns like being kicked from multiple matches, new player, etc.
Oswald Rehnquist Abandoned Privilege General Tso's Alliance 313	Posted - 2013.10.19 13:45:00 - [118] - Quote 800+ matches are fine, if FW took only a month or two to cap that would be boring, you don't want the ceiling too low. Currently mass suicides are already a form of sabotage for teams, and there is no protection against that currently or planned so far. A higher standard (lower amount of kills before punishment) is necessary for strangers to play together, where as in pc it is forgiven more due to all being corp mates, so that is fine. Currently ranking up will allow you to TK more often and the allies jumping at one individual player more than 10 times is difficult by accident. In conjunction with this, being killed by teammates should operate on the same mechanic, if you are a noob and walk in front of friendly fire and got team killed you get kicked when you do that too many times for being a dumbass, if you are an account spawning troll, you get kicked for getting killed by allies trying to sabotage players, your allotted amount of deaths from team mates before kick goes up with standing. Boom Problem Solved So if you are low in standing, you can't afford a lot of tk or tk suicides before a kick, if you are higher ranked you can tk or get tk suicide more often before kick. and dropped.
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2907	Posted - 2013.10.19 14:20:00 - [119] - Quote If you team kill someone intentionally because that person has been team killing, it should have a reduced/negated penalty. Afterall, it's only fair that we are able to defend ourselves if someone on our team open fires. Also I thought of something with remote explosives. I noticed several times currently that if I shoot an enemy remote explosive and a friendly is nearby, the enemy will get the credit for the kill. So that probably means if I shoot an remote explosive, and someone on the remote explosive's team is nearby, then the person who laid the remote explosive will get the team kill. Is there anyway you can change this so the kill/team kill is credited to the guy who shoots the explosive?
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 816	Posted - 2013.10.19 15:45:00 - [120] - Quote 1. There should be a threshold below which you aren't penalized for team kills. Like if you only kill one or two guys all match, you don't get punished at all, because one or two team kills in a 10-15 minute match isn't hard to do even if you aren't trying (especially with explosive weapons). 2. If you can, you should make it so Starship Strikes don't damage team mates, because if they do, and it counts towards TKs in a match, then a lot of people likely won't even be using them. 3. Just seeing your calculation about how many games you'd need to grind back after 4 TKs lets me know you've made this whole system way too grindy. 800 games? When I'm not making any ISK off of them? It takes 30 Skirmish/Dom games (roughly) to hit the cap and even if we doubled that, which is more than all but the most hardcore play in a week, you're still talking over 3 months of grinding to get that back. And that's assuming they don't team kill one time in those 800 games. How likely is that? It's really easy to accidentally run someone over, or someone steps in front of you, or a grenade bounces off some invisible wall, etc. It should be like 10-15 (maximum) grind games per 1 TK (and that's past the threshold I listed in 1.). Going by the suggestions above. If Player A TKs one time in a match, he loses no standing. If Player B TKs four times in a match, he has to grind 20 matches (2 past the TK threshold of 2, and 10 games per 1 TK past threshold = 20) to get back his standing. The threshold is in place to allow for TKs that aren't his fault while still being able to grind back the standing he lost (without going deeper into "standing-debt").

Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 57	Posted - 2013.10.19 16:10:00 - [121] - Quote What if we change how the matches are set up? How about instead of the match making being more like public contracts, where you have a random group of people stuck together with the largest cohesive group being a single squad, you instead make them more like PC battles. A single person would start for a battle and they could choose to either make it only open to public, alliance, corporation, or private (invite only). Then from there you can build your own team with people you know you can trust. To be honest the only way I can see to prevent game ruining abuse of AWOXing is to have control over who gets into the game to begin with. The only other idea I have is to have a team kick feature that ousts said player from the team and removes all penalties for any team kills related to that person. If people oppose to being able to make factional battles set to public, alliance, corporation, or private then I suggest making a field commander position who has the ability to kick anyone from the match.
S Park Finner DUST University Ivy League 338	Posted - 2013.10.19 16:54:00 - [122] - Quote Friendly Fire (FF) adds a dimension of tactics and precision to games. You have to watch your muzzle and which weapons you use. You have to be aware of your team, where they are and what they are doing. But that's all B*S. People like and want FF because they can use it to grief and kill off guys on their own team: Trash those blueberries that Pi* you off. Get back at that guy that stole your kill. Shoot that guy hiding in the bushes instead of playing the way you want in the face. We should not kid ourselves about what FF is all about in pub matches of any kind. Tying FF to Faction Warfare without a way for teams to organize before the match -- eliminating players who aren't dedicated to keeping their team-mates alive -- is at best futile and at worst damages Faction Warfare. If we want FF in a public game mode create a "Hardcore" version of Ambush and just let people go at it.
Avinash Decker Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 75	Posted - 2013.10.19 17:13:00 - [123] - Quote Brush Master wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: Brush Master wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: Regarding friendly fire suiciding as a means of griefing, we were brainstorming an idea where selecting the punish option on the death screen would cost the person being team killed some standing or maybe ISK, but relative to their standing level. So the experienced FW players could spend some of their standings to punish the players team killing, without it affecting them too much and prevent people from suicide griefing because they wouldn't have any standings available to spend for punishment (it also being expensive at low levels). Any thoughts on something like this to help police FF punishment? Why not remove the entire reason that someone would be griefing, to low others standings and /or cost others income. You do this by doing the by Kicking someone from the match after they reached 5 TK The person TK gets paid the the ISK of their suit destroyed from the one that did the TK. If the TKer has no isk to pay for the friendly TK, auto-kick them. If there are two matches in a row that a player is kicked from a game for TKing, then make it effect their standings, implement an escalating delay to rejoin FW How do these couple items not make everyone happy, deals with TKing effectively and seems much simpler codewise. I'm talking about people intentionally being team killed, in order to apply the TK penalty to other players. There is no way for you to tell the difference between accidental and intentional. Plus I'm talking about suicide griefers as well. If you look at PC match TK you will see a clear pattern that even in the most organized teams, you will get a couple TK per match and we are talking about different corps in a FW battle. What I'm saying is don't make individual TKs effect anything but look for patterns like being kicked from multiple matches, new player, etc. That's the one of the problems, since it would be really hard for a system to know if someone is TKing, a person can get in the way of friendly fire and the teammate that's shooting would get penalized if he kills his teammate. Let's say if CCP can track accidental and intentionally , what would be accidental and how wouldn't that be abused? And is even worth it all those systems and manpower to regulate teamkilling? Some people are forgetting that I don't have to kill my team I can shoot them until their armor is less than 10% . And isn't isk loss one tracked once the object is destroyed? But still I can get in the way of my team and they would have to pay.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 208	Posted - 2013.10.19 17:28:00 - [124] - Quote Honestly I think a lot of these issues could probably be minimized by a combination of a few things that have already been discussed: 1) You can't join FW until you get a certain number of WP. Period. Hard to believe anyone is going to grind an alt for 2-3 months to tk over and over again. I mean, once someone is seen griefing relentlessly people will catch on (see below) this would probably be the most effective prevention. But, hey, if they really want to spend the next 6 months doing nothing but grinding a couple new characters just to awox, well crap, maybe they should be rewarded for that dedication, lol. 2) Forgiveness. A Kill screen option to forgive, and the first tk each match doesn't go against your standings no matter what; Everyone gets a mulligan. Squad kills are always forgiven - killing members of your own corp/squad is by far the easiest thing to police. Lock your squad if you don't want randoms in it. 3) A kick option, you can also put it on the kill screen. You can vote to forgive. If you don't, you can then vote to kick or not. So many votes to kick and you're out. That way you can't get kicked randomly, you actually have to have tk'd some people first. This way you can also still punish that idiot you know didn't do it on purpose but is careless by dropping their LP gain but not getting them kicked. Also, with this mechanic there's no need to put in a blanket X many Tk's and you get auto-booted, like with the occasional wayward orbital or one of those future full-auto missile tank salvos (sounds scary but glorious). I can see why people would be concerned about that happening to a teammate. 3a) A variant of this would be a vote to kick option in the warbarge. You see a known griefer, start a vote. So many votes and you're out (maybe it would be more than 6 so a single squad can't do it alone). Combine this with a minimum WP level to even enter the match as mentioned above, and bang, serial awoxers become an endangered species. Obviously this could be exploited such that (to use a previous example, lol) Amarrian stalwart General John Ripper could potentially be kicked out in the warbarge by Minmatar supporters (or maybe bacon supporters, or people who inexplicably don't like tacos - who knows what goes on in the mind of a griefer!) so they can weaken the team. Easy fix: if you have a certain level of standing with that faction, you can't be kicked. The Imperial Guard is obviously not going to expel one of their finest soldiers based on the word of some rabble. o7
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2914	Posted - 2013.10.19 17:33:00 - [125] - Quote Excellent post John! I agree 100% with everything. Also it would be nice if there was a way to look into someone's background and see if they have a bad history of TKs and whether they were forgiven or not.
S Park Finner DUST University Ivy League 338	Posted - 2013.10.19 17:43:00 - [126] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Honestly I think a lot of these issues could probably be minimized by a combination of a few things that have already been discussed... Excellent post. If you're dead set on putting FF into FW these kinds of things are a sensible direction to take.
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1246	Posted - 2013.10.19 18:52:00 - [127] - Quote Two comments on friendly fire: 1) I don't think a straight up x kills gets you booted from the match is good enough. It creates problems with suicide trolls, and means that people can intentionally kill a bunch of friendly HAVs with a penalty that is proportionally low to the damage caused. I think we need to base the penalty around the isk value of what people have killed. Ie: if you TK a madrugar, that's very difficult to do by accident and you automatically get booted from the match. Kill a troll or newbie in a starter fit that ran right into your grenade because he didn't know any better? Next to no penalty. We won't be able to rely on the market value of items because it will begin to change Soon(TM), so we can borrow an idea from EVE used to tax planetary interaction goods. Give each item a value behind the scenes that says, "This is work x ISK" no matter what people are trading the item for currently, then update the values every year or so. 2) Vehicles remain a problem, because they're very expensive and the matches give no isk. They have proportionally much more to lose than any other player in the game, and could be a huge griefing target. One thing that would help is to not apply damage when a small turret hits the vehicle it's attached to. The hit box issues on vehicles make it very difficult to avoid hitting your own vehicle sometimes, and in the case of high end small missiles it can actually do a lot of damage. Maybe even go further and say that only orbitals and other vehicles can damage a friendly vehicle.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2016	Posted - 2013.10.19 19:48:00 - [128] - Quote These are some of my favourite ideas so far in this thread. I'm happy to see that most of us are on the same page here. 1. WP minimum to participate in FW This will help prevent throw away alts from spamming TK in FW, but allow dedicated AWOXers their sandbox gameplay 2. Automatically debit ISK penalty equal to clone market value per TK Each Faction has the right to reparations from conracted mercs 3. Automatically debit 5 LP penalty per TK This gives Team Killers about 10 kills per win for the faction. Dedicated AWOXers will have to frequently play games in which they don't TK ( but will likely still be useless) 4. Participants in FW are kicked from battle if wallet or LP balance reches zero This ensures that mercs cannot enter into battle with no ISK/LP to avoid punishment. 5. Squad kills do not cost LP The Faction may want ISK back for the clone due to your recklessness but understands that FF is a fact of war. 6. After X team kills, allow a vote to kick option. Votes against you are only eligible if from people with a higher LP standing than you, and requires 8 votes (half the team and intentionally larger than a 6 man grief squad) to take effect. TBH I'm not a huge fan of a vote to kick mechanic as I imagine it will be abused by regular players and greifers alike (not to mention it breaks the sandbox) but I suppose if the conditions are high enough kicking an exceptional douche bag is not out of the question. 7. Vehicles This is the most difficult problem to work with. IMO it doesnt seem to fit with the EVE universe that griefers should have to repay 100% the damages, but at the same time Pilots do need some form of protection considering vehicles costs. Perhaps the Faction could offer some sort of FF Insurance to mitigate damages done by FF? Although I could see this abused (Quick! forge my 90% dead tank!)
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6624	Posted - 2013.10.19 20:10:00 - [129] - Quote There should be no FF penalty among squads, the squad leaders can deal with it if it becomes a problem by kicking the TKing member from the squad (so the TKer will suffer penalty if he does it again).
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 834	Posted - 2013.10.19 20:36:00 - [130] - Quote As a suggestion for the salvage idea, is it out of the question to crank it up from 25% to closer to 50% but only for what you as a Merc killed? For some reason I find it unfair that say, I kill X proto players but some other player who while he was doing his job, has a fair shot at possibly getting my kills gear.

Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 19	Posted - 2013.10.19 20:59:00 - [131] - Quote Very nice,gents.((CCP))
Evicer THE HECATONCHIRES 19	Posted - 2013.10.19 21:09:00 - [132] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain [b wrote: 8. Team killing the team killers[/b] Once a merc has more than x TKs other members of the team are not penalized for killing this individual. I agree with this and this part will be tricky.This also begs an answer to this question by the devs.If say a person does retaliate. Does this person now get there Standings decreased?Do Tks count towards spawn count?What if 2 rival PC corps come into a match how do we keep these 2 6 man squads from turning the match into a Fd up free for all? In which our side will inevitably loose and no one gets Lp because of the loss.Also how over the long term do you think it'll take before people to stop wearing Proto into FW matches because of scenarios like these that are bound to occur..
pyramidhead 420 Carbon 7 CRONOS. 115	Posted - 2013.10.19 22:23:00 - [133] - Quote so i can drop a players hp to 5 or 10 pts but im good as long as i let an enemy finish him....yyyyeah this is a ticking bomb why not fix the dozens of freezing bugs and other stupid crap and forget about dumb ideas like this. me and my 12 alts will have a rotating schedule of who's banned for 24hrs and who's not. see any problems with this post yet or should i continue with example ideas from d-bags who give zero fuks about a game they got for free
Seed Dren SyNergy Gaming EoN. 108	Posted - 2013.10.20 02:22:00 - [134] - Quote That's why damge reduction from friendly fire will help mitigate both team killing and suicides. In order for you to kill/die by friendly fire it should take twice as long . Is not perfect but it'll help.
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 1130	Posted - 2013.10.20 07:34:00 - [135] - Quote Two words: Team Deployment! This is already an issue but will be more of an issue with the coming changes especially team killing. If a player is going to sandbag or team kill me, that player should at the very least have to put in work to infiltrate my Corp or Team in order to do so. CCP, I'm telling you this because I care about the future of this game. If you throw players in matches with other players who have created alts for the sole purpose of sandbagging/team kill in FW, you will destroy this game. Having a player grief your team when you let him in is one thing, having a player grief your team because you were randomly teamed up with him by an AI matchmaker is something totally different. Team deployment is also necessity in order to ensure that the effort you put into a match is meaningful. Currently we have 6 man squads and 16 man teams. When my squad is in a match with griefers or noobs and we are fighting a Fully stacked Fully organized, fully Prototyped out team of EON for instance, it greatly effects the outcome of a battle. There is absolutely nothing worse than looking at the end of match leaderboards only to see that from #8 down contributed next to nothing in the match. Please note that by "next to nothing" I mean about 200 wp tops with a K/D ratio of about 2/10 or worse. This is not an exaggeration!!! I have been in many, many battles where this is the case and I'm very sure I'm not alone here. Team Deployment is 100% absolutely, totally necessary and should have been implemented a long time ago.
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 1130	Posted - 2013.10.20 07:45:00 - [136] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: Removing ISK Payouts No, not because we hate you. Remember one of our goals with factional contracts is to make it something you guys want to play alongside public contracts. Removing ISK payouts accomplishes this goal and makes factional contracts an ISK sink. It also helps make them different, again another goal. We cannot just remove ISK rewards though and expect you guys to play this. See the next point! In practice, this would only effect the portion of your playerbase which is not active in Planetary Conquest. The Corps and Players who currently participate in Planetary Conquest use their Planetary Conquest payouts to bankroll their Noobstomping Proto Parties in Pubs and FW and this will do absolutely nothing to stem the tide! I'm telling you this because I honestly care, CCP. While I understand the reasoning behind removing ISK rewards from FW, the implementation of this will effectively lock nearly all players who aren't active in PC out of FW for a very long time.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 794	Posted - 2013.10.20 08:36:00 - [137] - Quote I like the idea of friendly fire enabled but i share with some other guys the same fears, why should i play with randoms? This feature will force me (and some other players) to play only with a 6 men squad who i trust. Also you have to consider other factors like: vengeance and assholery. Most of the people in the game will revenge if you kill them even for an error. ***** will kill vehicles and message people to say: ahah i've blowed your expensive trap XD!!! Lose a 50k suit means nothing but lose a million and half tank for an ***** really sucks. So, even if FF is a good idea by itself, but it relies on people's intelligence, which is why i would not enable it in FW.
Anoko Destrolock THE NUCLEAR KNIGHTS 12	Posted - 2013.10.20 15:11:00 - [138] - Quote This sounds amazing. I can't wait to see this implemented. Any idea when we will See this live?
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 261	Posted - 2013.10.20 16:31:00 - [139] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Lose a 50k suit means nothing but lose a million and half tank for an ******* really sucks. and if you get the money back, do you still care so much?
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 135	Posted - 2013.10.20 18:08:00 - [140] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Ya know.. I see a bunch of whining about TKing here, but after thinking about it for a bit... it shouldnt be THAT hard to avoid. Yes if you play the same way you do now, you're going to get banned. Well.. Good! The whole point of enabling friendly fire damage, is to make people play more realistically, and stop playing the way they do now, where they see a group of dots, and fire into it, never mind the color. In real life, if you see an enemy 20m away, but you have a friendly within 10 degrees of arc... you'd better pay attention to them just as much as the enemy, and STOP FIRING, if they start heading towards your line of fire! Now, whether they do that "accidentally", or "on purpose", really shouldnt matter. You need to take the accidental into account. Once you're doing that, you will also take care of the deliberate. And its not like they're enemy scouts who can pop up on your radar and "surprise" you... They will be on your radar 100% of the time! Use Your Radar, and you'll avoid TK penalties. At that point, the worst they can do, is reduce your effectiveness in combat. They wont get you banned, though, since you wont be firing. Upon further thought, perhaps penalties for friendly fire should be reduced a little for longterm hit, but increased for short term. Upon either 2 team kills, or (above some amount of team damage), the offender gets immediately ejected from the game, and banned for 1 hour. Repeated offenses, get longer bans Quilt... I don't think you ad addressing the primary concern. Most of the folks posting here probably have the awareness to check fire or make moderately smart decisions. Effectively they can control themselves... you CAN'T control the other guy. Reality check - in the real world, the majority of individual operator or small unit training that is key to preventing FF focuses heavily on not putting yourself in position to be hit by FF. The reason behind this is because ultimately you can only directly effect your own actions.

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1636	Posted - 2013.10.20 18:20:00 - [141] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: There should be no FF penalty among squads, the squad leaders can deal with it if it becomes a problem by kicking the TKing member from the squad (so the TKer will suffer penalty if he does it again). This is actually a very good idea
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 136	Posted - 2013.10.20 18:35:00 - [142] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Regarding friendly fire suiciding as a means of griefing, we were brainstorming an idea where selecting the punish option on the death screen would cost the person being team killed some standing or maybe ISK, but relative to their standing level. So the experienced FW players could spend some of their standings to punish the players team killing, without it affecting them too much and prevent people from suicide griefing because they wouldn't have any standings available to spend for punishment (it also being expensive at low levels). Any thoughts on something like this to help police FF punishment? Here's a crazy idea...I like it. Essentially you give the community the option to police themselves. I think this is a better start point than the ghost in the machine doling out "faction justice". I think the trick will be figuring out how to make it expensive on those that use cheap Alts to grief.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 262	Posted - 2013.10.20 19:52:00 - [143] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I think the trick will be figuring out how to make it expensive on those that use cheap Alts to grief. thats easy .dont allow cheap alts.
Talos Vagheitan King Slayers 112	Posted - 2013.10.20 19:59:00 - [144] - Quote Ultimately, on top of auto-booting after a certain amount of team kills, there needs to be a player enforced system. I've suggested before: If a player is generally griefing the team in ways other than Team Killing, there needs to be a player enforced system. Whenever we get a Commander Mode, it would be nice to have the Commander be able to boot players, but until then, I think a vote system would be necessary. If 5 or so players vote to boot someone, they are removed for the game (forfeiting any ISK, LP or SP). SOCOM had a system like this and it worked perfectly.
Tahir Maru Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2013.10.20 20:31:00 - [145] - Quote to all those who point out that so many accidents will happen, I am pretty sure that people will learn to avoid such accidents and be more careful. I am convinced that gameplay with active FF AND random players will be a whole new different experience. about the way to respond to TKs I think there should be taken into account on how many occasions it happened (because if someone touches of a remote explosive outside the minimap and kills 3 friendlies who try to recapture a null cannon it should not necessarily be treated as 3 teamkills). furthermore I think the amount of damage given (or taken) should play a role because some stray bullets killing someone off who was low on armour anyways should not be punished that hard. probably intentional team killing depending on weapon type (ie. assault rifle) should be easier to filter out. several remote explosives severely damaging a tank and softening it up is per se no TK but should probably be considered as such FF/TK. I am anxious to read suggestions about roadkills (unless vehicles don't hurt friendlies but that doesn't sound right) as they are often unintentional, maybe people will learn to deal with that too. btw the idea about reimbursing TK victims and some forgive TK option sound good as well maybe some mechanic about restricting TKers or alleged TKers to use front spawn beacons, don't get supplies from installations and getting a 'neutral' colour for the match (or temporarily) and allowing others to kill them without being flagged (or forgive the TK) and giving TKers the possibility to ammend themselves by getting WP through capturing points or something to regain trust (and so softening the punishment for unintentional TKers - that actual example provides in itself a loophole but you get my meaning probably) john demonsbane's post good as well - if you find errors concerning synthax and orthography ... please keep them, no time to review ;)
S Park Finner DUST University Ivy League 340	Posted - 2013.10.20 21:23:00 - [146] - Quote In another thread someone mentioned an idea that suggested another way to manage the friendly fire issues -- reputation. If there was a visible statistic associated with characters showing how many times they have team killed in the last 10 games and it was combined with the idea that only players with -- say -- 2 million SP could enter FW then people would have a good way to pick/choose/identify players they wanted to play with. If the TK statistic was per account rather than per character it might even be more revealing. In either case it would identify both the deliberate and the sloppy players. Extend it to include how many times the player has been team killed and it would draw in those folks who were griefing by getting themselves killed.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 138	Posted - 2013.10.20 23:17:00 - [147] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I think the trick will be figuring out how to make it expensive on those that use cheap Alts to grief. thats easy .dont allow cheap alts. I'm coming around to your way of thinking on this. I do want players to have the freedom to choose their own adventure so to speak as early ads possible but there are some pretty compelling reasons not to open the gate too early. Curious...what would a an acceptable WP threshold be for FW participation? 25k, 50k, ect...?
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 1637	Posted - 2013.10.21 00:40:00 - [148] - Quote I think a squad leader with proper standing should be able to bring in whomever they choose into a battle. It just shouldn't let a player with under let's say 100,000 WP queue in solo.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 3422	Posted - 2013.10.21 03:57:00 - [149] - Quote I am slightly concerned by how this will impact me as an HAV operator. I drive around.... a lot of the time people get in my way. You'd think they would wise up and watch out for the 500 tonne tank rushing past. But they don't, also LAV's like to blow them selves up against me trolling. How will impacts affect my team mates, and will I be responsible for their deaths if they crash into me?
Rogatien Merc Red Star. EoN. 1494	Posted - 2013.10.21 05:30:00 - [150] - Quote free accounts + 3x characters per account + 24 hour cooldown = i can spend all day every day team killing with 3-4x free accounts if i felt like it. there are people that will feel like it. rogawoxalt1 rogawoxalt2 rogawoxalt14... so yeh. meh.

Rogatien Merc Red Star. EoN. 1494	Posted - 2013.10.21 05:33:00 - [151] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I am slightly concerned by how this will impact me as an HAV operator. I drive around.... a lot of the time people get in my way. You'd think they would wise up and watch out for the 500 tonne tank rushing past. But they don't, also LAV's like to blow them selves up against me trolling. How will impacts affect my team mates, and will I be responsible for their deaths if they crash into me? Aaaaaand now I can militia forge every tank I see into low armor... ... no TK penalty since I would never actually kiiiillll them, just significantly disrupt the ops; sit there and do it all day. Gonna be fun. Hell I'm going to get really good at leaving people with a sliver of health using a militia SMG
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1169	Posted - 2013.10.21 07:41:00 - [152] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: True Adamance wrote: I am slightly concerned by how this will impact me as an HAV operator. I drive around.... a lot of the time people get in my way. You'd think they would wise up and watch out for the 500 tonne tank rushing past. But they don't, also LAV's like to blow them selves up against me trolling. How will impacts affect my team mates, and will I be responsible for their deaths if they crash into me? Aaaaaand now I can militia forge every tank I see into low armor... ... no TK penalty since I would never actually kiiiillll them, just significantly disrupt the ops; sit there and do it all day. Gonna be fun. Hell I'm going to get really good at leaving people with a sliver of health using a militia SMG Which is exactly why FF isn't going to work out, at least as long as we're forced to play with randoms, which we will be since team deployment won't be implemented along with these FW changes. I would love to see FF implemented, but I don't see a way to get it implemented in pub matches.
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 432	Posted - 2013.10.21 15:46:00 - [153] - Quote We need a criminal flagging system. If you damage a teammate beyond a certain threshold--say 25% of total HP to accommodate for the odd bullet, and to make it a little harder for griefers who intentionally get in the way,or kill a teammate then you will be flagged "purple" on the minimap and chevron, for like 30 seconds or so. When you're purple, teammates receive no penalty for killing you. You would then have the option to defend yourselves if they're an obvious griefer, or ignore their purple status if it seems it was an accident. This could be tweaked where you won't go purple if you damage a squadmate. This system should address some of the issues raised. Orbitals are tricky. The massive AoE makes it pretty hard to avoid friendly kills, but could be devastating in the hands of a griefer with an OB. Perhaps if you kill more enemies than friendlies you receive no penalty, but more friendlies than enemies will have a very severe penalty. ISK needs to be factored into the penalty somehow. Someone running a free, or very cheap scout suit intentionally getting killed by jumping into your line of fire or on your grenades shouldn't be equivalent to blowing up a friendly tank, or a friendly in a bling-fit proto suit. I like the idea of a voting system, but it needs to be resilliant to a squad of awoxers voting to kick the best players from a match. I like the idea of charging the cost of what was destroyed to the griefer, but (and I hate to say this) griefers need to be able to inflict grief, so the victim shouldn't be reimbursed for the cost, the ISK payout should just vanish into the nether. I think the system should be designed around 2 types of griefers, the casual griefer and the dedicated griefer. The casual griefer is one who hasn't invested effort in setting up the awox, is a new alt etc. the system should be designed to make it difficult to inflict much grief on their team. The dedicated griefer is someone who has invested a lot of time and energy infiltrating the enemy faction like a spy, and should be rewarded by making his ability to really cause serious havock on his own faction for a limited time (possibly turning the tide in a few key battles) before resetting to zero. It should also be relatively tolerant of unintentional TKs.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 267	Posted - 2013.10.21 22:54:00 - [154] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I am slightly concerned by how this will impact me as an HAV operator. I drive around.... a lot of the time people get in my way. You'd think they would wise up and watch out for the 500 tonne tank rushing past. But they don't, also LAV's like to blow them selves up against me trolling. How will impacts affect my team mates, and will I be responsible for their deaths if they crash into me? Seems like you'll be affected just like everyone else. A high-speed (or very large) vehicle is a "deadly weapon". You're going to have to check your weapon use and hold back if your teammates are in the way. FYI, a simple solution to this would be if infantry in FW just got used to staying off the roads.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 267	Posted - 2013.10.21 23:14:00 - [155] - Quote I missed out on this earlier post... Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Quil... I don't think you are addressing the primary concern. Most of the folks posting here probably have the awareness to check fire or make moderately smart decisions. Effectively they can control themselves... you CAN'T control the other guy. Reality check - in the real world, the majority of individual operator or small unit training that is key to preventing FF focuses heavily on not putting yourself in position to be hit by FF. The reason behind this is because ultimately you can only directly effect your own actions. Seems like some ambiguity in your post. Okay, you're concerned about "the other guy". What specifically about "the other guy" do you think still needs to be addressed? You getting hit in the back by him? Well, cheer up, it'll only happen a few times at best, then he'll get ejected for a long time, if not permenantly, if my recommendations are taken up. And if you're totally paranoid about your special, uber suit getting shot in the back by a punk... then okay, only run with your own little squad, away from other blue dots. It's not like they can hide from you; you know where they are.
JP Acuna RoyalSquad514 25	Posted - 2013.10.22 02:40:00 - [156] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: FoxFour, how will you stop players from just running around in FW trying to get teamkilled? Would cutting friendly fire to 50% damage, or maybe even less, be a solution? It would make it so that you'll still do damage to your teammates, but won't be extreme unless you keep firing. THIS. If you're firing at enemies and suddenly a teammate moves between you and your target, with reduced damage you'd have time to realize and stop shooting or move and avoid the TK.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 268	Posted - 2013.10.22 02:53:00 - [157] - Quote JP Acuna wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: FoxFour, how will you stop players from just running around in FW trying to get teamkilled? Would cutting friendly fire to 50% damage, or maybe even less, be a solution? It would make it so that you'll still do damage to your teammates, but won't be extreme unless you keep firing. THIS. If you're firing at enemies and suddenly a teammate moves between you and your target, with reduced damage you'd have time to realize and stop shooting or move and avoid the TK. no, you've missed the whole point. You should have moved, BEFORE that time. You should not have been firing that close to your ally in the first place.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 139	Posted - 2013.10.22 02:54:00 - [158] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: I missed out on this earlier post... Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Quil... I don't think you are addressing the primary concern. Most of the folks posting here probably have the awareness to check fire or make moderately smart decisions. Effectively they can control themselves... you CAN'T control the other guy. Reality check - in the real world, the majority of individual operator or small unit training that is key to preventing FF focuses heavily on not putting yourself in position to be hit by FF. The reason behind this is because ultimately you can only directly effect your own actions. Seems like some ambiguity in your post. Okay, you're concerned about "the other guy". What specifically about "the other guy" do you think still needs to be addressed? You getting hit in the back by him? Well, cheer up, it'll only happen a few times at best, then he'll get ejected for a long time, if not permenantly, if my recommendations are taken up. And if you're totally paranoid about your special, uber suit getting shot in the back by a punk... then okay, only run with your own little squad, away from other blue dots. It's not like they can hide from you; you know where they are. Not sure what was ambiguous but I'll clarify; my concern about the other guy is not so much about him back shooting me on purpose. It's more focused on the lack of penalty of the guy that steps right into your line of fire or charges in before the grenade goes off. The only person that gets dinged is the shooter...regardless of what the other party's action was. I started paying a bit more to potential FF incidents in the last day or so and I was a little surprised at how often I thought I might have been on involved in a FF. The vast majority of these were related to guys stepping in front of you at incredibly in opportune times. I would like to attribute most of this to lack of coms or situational awareness on their part...could also be plain old Blueberry-ness. The other thing I noticed was that orbital strikes have the potential to be pretty nasty. You can't tell everyone to back off 100 meters from the location your dropping ordinance on - ouch.
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC Intara Direct Action Caldari State 87	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:27:00 - [159] - Quote XEROO COOL wrote: Goodbye Locust Grenades... hello Flux Grenades. I shall still bring the rain with Infinite core bombs lobbed high onto the heads of the lowly armor of Gallente scum all day long, we Cals can take the damage
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC Intara Direct Action Caldari State 87	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:33:00 - [160] - Quote Rogatien Merc wrote: True Adamance wrote: I am slightly concerned by how this will impact me as an HAV operator. I drive around.... a lot of the time people get in my way. You'd think they would wise up and watch out for the 500 tonne tank rushing past. But they don't, also LAV's like to blow them selves up against me trolling. How will impacts affect my team mates, and will I be responsible for their deaths if they crash into me? Aaaaaand now I can militia forge every tank I see into low armor... ... no TK penalty since I would never actually kiiiillll them, just significantly disrupt the ops; sit there and do it all day. Gonna be fun. Hell I'm going to get really good at leaving people with a sliver of health using a militia SMG Im guessing sarcasm, but leave it to the goons, this is exactly what they will do.

Quil Evrything Dust University Ivy League 269	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:39:00 - [161] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Not sure what was ambiguous but I'll clarify; my concern about the other guy is not so much about him back shooting me on purpose. It's more focused on the lack of penalty of the guy that steps right into your line of fire or charges in before the grenade goes off. The only person that gets dinged is the shooter...regardless of what the other party's action was. I dont think you've responded to what I'vd written at least 3 separate times in this thread: With friendly fire enabled, you shouldnt be shooting that close to him in the first place. If your line of fire is so close to your teammember, that he can jump into it before you can stop firing... then you need to change your line of fire. Grenades, though, would definitely seem to be a problem. Not sure how that one can be cleaned up. On the one hand, it would be insane to make the team immune to grenades On the other hand... lots of frag potential there. yikes. mm. Maybe make a clearer team warning. When your team's grenade is on the ground, maybe the entire blast zone should light up. Very, VERY clearly. On the other hand, cooked grenades.... That may come under the same heading as my "line of fire" response. IE: You have radar. Use it. If there are friendlies ANYWHERE NEAR your target zone... dont throw a grenade there.
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC Intara Direct Action Caldari State 88	Posted - 2013.10.22 22:39:00 - [162] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: True Adamance wrote: I am slightly concerned by how this will impact me as an HAV operator. I drive around.... a lot of the time people get in my way. You'd think they would wise up and watch out for the 500 tonne tank rushing past. But they don't, also LAV's like to blow them selves up against me trolling. How will impacts affect my team mates, and will I be responsible for their deaths if they crash into me? Seems like you'll be affected just like everyone else. A high-speed (or very large) vehicle is a "deadly weapon". You're going to have to check your weapon use and hold back if your teammates are in the way. FYI, a simple solution to this would be if infantry in FW just got used to staying off the roads. I think more appropriately as the infantry and tank should support one another and move or advance together tanks will simply have to stop rushing past, these 2 elements should work well together. This will become more evident as competition increases in fw. There are many other reasons for concern including orbitals, ff that almost kills you but doesnt then stops to let someone else finish you off. Perhaps a tk assist? So many gets you banned perhaps a few more than actual tk, but if my teammate does 75 percent of the damage just to let a reddot finish me their must be a counter. Ccp please anticipate this, because of your failure to address people who boost, use revive melee, or any other stat exploit you have created a wide open situation for this petty game killing behavior, it will quickly make fw very limited and keep vehicles out of it all together.
Oso Peresoso RisingSuns Public Disorder. 670	Posted - 2013.10.23 20:18:00 - [163] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: Also we want to look at letting the EVE pilot join the team voice channel to help coordinate the strike. :D This is the right kind of thinking. However, this feature is currently sort of implemented through the existing channel system. However, its very unreliable and doesn't always work the way it should. My Eve pilot is the corp and Eve voice does not work at all with my Dust corpies. It works sometimes in a custom channel, but often only after a client restart on my Eve pilot.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 139	Posted - 2013.10.23 22:29:00 - [164] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Not sure what was ambiguous but I'll clarify; my concern about the other guy is not so much about him back shooting me on purpose. It's more focused on the lack of penalty of the guy that steps right into your line of fire or charges in before the grenade goes off. The only person that gets dinged is the shooter...regardless of what the other party's action was. I dont think you've responded to what I'vd written at least 3 separate times in this thread: With friendly fire enabled, you shouldnt be shooting that close to him in the first place. If your line of fire is so close to your teammember, that he can jump into it before you can stop firing... then you need to change your line of fire. Grenades, though, would definitely seem to be a problem. Not sure how that one can be cleaned up. On the one hand, it would be insane to make the team immune to grenades On the other hand... lots of frag potential there. yikes. mm. Maybe make a clearer team warning. When your team's grenade is on the ground, maybe the entire blast zone should light up. Very, VERY clearly. On the other hand, cooked grenades.... That may come under the same heading as my "line of fire" response. IE: You have radar. Use it. If there are friendlies ANYWHERE NEAR your target zone... dont throw a grenade there. I think we may be talking past each other. I buy what your saying...I think it's just not as simple as you are describing. Example, let's say my screen and reticle is clear and i'm engaging a target, the blueberry to my immediate flank (i.e. 90 degrees away from the gunline) can flash in front of me in an instant and then we have a problem. This could be from strafe dancing, dodging a grenade, just trying get in on the kill, or maybe not even noticing that I'm there. You have to be able to dynamically engage targets safely and that requires communication and situational awareness, the two items that are in short supply with non-squadmates. Again, you make very valid points about controlling your own fire and I'm not disputing that. The bottom line is that often time the culpability in a FF event rests with both parties and a few times not with the shooter at all. I'm all about FF...just not convinced that a one way penalty that potentially could be quite steep is the way to go on this. BTW - I like the possible grenade fixes. What's your thought on how to deal with Orbital Strikes?
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 121	Posted - 2013.10.24 01:51:00 - [165] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: Orbital Strikes ... Also we want to look at letting the EVE pilot join the team voice channel to help coordinate the strike. :D Oh man, this. Do this. :)
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 106	Posted - 2013.10.24 02:37:00 - [166] - Quote My biggest request would be make weapons less effective against team and allow retaliating, if someone kills me let me get revenge np penalty
Vitharr Foebane Blood Money Mercenaries 140	Posted - 2013.10.24 09:58:00 - [167] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Not sure what was ambiguous but I'll clarify; my concern about the other guy is not so much about him back shooting me on purpose. It's more focused on the lack of penalty of the guy that steps right into your line of fire or charges in before the grenade goes off. The only person that gets dinged is the shooter...regardless of what the other party's action was. I dont think you've responded to what I'vd written at least 3 separate times in this thread: With friendly fire enabled, you shouldnt be shooting that close to him in the first place. If your line of fire is so close to your teammember, that he can jump into it before you can stop firing... then you need to change your line of fire. Grenades, though, would definitely seem to be a problem. Not sure how that one can be cleaned up. On the one hand, it would be insane to make the team immune to grenades On the other hand... lots of frag potential there. yikes. mm. Maybe make a clearer team warning. When your team's grenade is on the ground, maybe the entire blast zone should light up. Very, VERY clearly. On the other hand, cooked grenades.... That may come under the same heading as my "line of fire" response. IE: You have radar. Use it. If there are friendlies ANYWHERE NEAR your target zone... dont throw a grenade there. Silly question for you, as a HMG heavy if a not so friendly blue berry decides to plant himself between my bullet hose and the enemy, am I supposed to allow myself to get gunned down like a b*tch? God knows I cant waddle away fast enough to escape a smg much less an ar.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 274	Posted - 2013.10.24 14:00:00 - [168] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Silly question for you, as a HMG heavy if a not so friendly blue berry decides to plant himself between my bullet hose and the enemy, am I supposed to allow myself to get gunned down like a b*tch? God knows I cant waddle away fast enough to escape a smg much less an ar.[/quote] My personal guideline for this is, "what would you do in real life?" So what's your answer? Would you deliberately gun down a squad buddy to save your own life? I'm guessing (and hoping) "no". So there's your answer. If you think a little further through the issue, it may also suggest different tactics and placement for yourself,when you use your heavy suit. (IE: dont put yourself in situations where you dont have a safe exit route)
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 274	Posted - 2013.10.24 14:06:00 - [169] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: I think we may be talking past each other. I buy what your saying...I think it's just not as simple as you are describing. Example, let's say my screen and reticle is clear and i'm engaging a target, the blueberry to my immediate flank (i.e. 90 degrees away from the gunline) can flash in front of me in an instant and then we have a problem. This could be from strafe dancing, dodging a grenade, just trying get in on the kill, or maybe not even noticing that I'm there. .... BTW - I like the possible grenade fixes. What's your thought on how to deal with Orbital Strikes? I think that you basically agree with what I'm saying... its just that you dont want to deal with all the consequences of what I'm saying :-) yes, in the first example you gave, its still your fault. Or at least, it needs to be, for game purposes. If the guy doesnt realize you are there, then the scenarios you describe are quite likely. ANd these things happen.. he may be on a full out run, trying to escape from an enemy, and sees a friendly, so runs towards them, and.. oh, you're firi..??splat. He can see where you are. but he cant see that you're firing. To quote Schlock Mercenary, Maxim ... 15? "Only you, can prevent Friendly Fire" As far as orbitals go... Personally, i hate them. They're too much like a magic get-out-of-jail-free card, and I personally think they should be removed. (and they're just silly. how are the buildings still standing?!?!) But aside from that... I think they should stay FF enabled. I'm just not sure about assigning penalties. I think clearly an eve player who has been called to make the shot, shouldnt have any penalty. I'm not sure whether the squad leader should have a penalty or not. Probably not, unless we do the suggested grenade, "light up ENTIRE AREA(for at least 5 seconds) for friendlies" And if we do that, then no penalty should be incurred.
Medic 1879 Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 1155	Posted - 2013.10.25 01:15:00 - [170] - Quote Said by many in this thread TK penalties are too high and grind is jaw dropping. Apart from that I like these changes no ISK for these matches will stop players being able to afford to run proto gear 24/7 which will help the new players in pub games. One quick question though the 4 TK's is that per match or per day?

THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1199	Posted - 2013.10.30 02:36:00 - [171] - Quote cSRT4 wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I run million-ISK tanks. What's to stop some asshat from dropping REs from a fresh alt to ruin my day? Again and again and again? Pilots have a lot to lose from this mechanic. Far more than anyone else does. You blow up a ** ing supply depot when I'm playing on your team and it WILL happen. WILL! GUARANTEED! If you're not one of those tankers, I have no beef with you. But I WILL get my point across fairly quickly to all those asshat tankers that blow up supply depots for 50 ** ing points! You're what's wrong with Dust. It's not for 50 points, it's because the blues can't hold an objective let alone a depot 50 meters away. Why would I let a depot survive that's being used by 3 guys to switch to easy mode swarms? What is a signature?
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 310	Posted - 2013.10.30 03:25:00 - [172] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: You're what's wrong with Dust. It's not for 50 points, it's because the blues can't hold an objective let alone a depot 50 meters away. Why would I let a depot survive that's being used by 3 guys to switch to easy mode swarms? Ah, irony. What's wrong with dust, is lack of good team play. and by blowing up the depot, YOU are not being a good team player. if "the blues cant hold (a depot)"... maybe its because they need tank support. So instead of just riding around getting points for yourself, maybe you should defend the depot, if they're sooo important to you? Thats what team play is about. YOU, doing stuff for the team, as well as everyone else.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1538	Posted - 2013.11.08 19:14:00 - [173] - Quote Implement: GÇ£You break it, you pay for it!GÇ¥
God Almighty 666 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3	Posted - 2013.11.16 13:30:00 - [174] - Quote I agree with the others that a team deployment needs to be implemented for FW to survive the FF onslaught that will come with a bunch of griefers and newberries that will show up in FW.My idea is to make a team deployment tab with a commander who created the team has option to kick anyone like they have in PC battles and make it like a squad tab where you can set up options of the number of members in each squad as the team is created .The squad is restricted to 6 but need 16 for a team and you can pick from squad number options like this with the ability to promote people to squad leaders and also have the commander role or ability to kick players. 6-6-4 6-5-5 4-4-4-4 3-3-3-3-4 or at least a few options like this on squad sizes Giving the team the ability to determine what squads to take into the battle and how many are in each to form a more cohesive team unit on available options to themas far as personal goes.Since there is a squad finder mode there should be a team finder mode.i think this will help players and corps who only want to participate in FW determine who to trust in FW and possibly find new recruits for there corp when they find decent players to play with. Also the penalty for possible accidental TKs and griefers causing you to tk is 800 games really isnt that way overboard to have to grind that many games and try not to have the same thing happen or you have to start over with all 800 games again ?I also agree squad TKs should always be forgiven as explained before the squad leaders or commander if team deploy is ever implemented can remove the at fault player.
Argent Mordred DUST University Ivy League 21	Posted - 2013.11.20 14:49:00 - [175] - Quote For fratricide, can it be consider justified and automatically count for less or forgiven under certain conditions if they run out in front of you? For example, if you are firing and damaging an enemy player and a team member under a certain amount of health walks in front of you, the TK only counts for half or is forgiven. Obviously this should be restricted so that it can't be abused to shoot an enemy and then step behind a friendly and fire at him. But if I am in cover and I am hitting an enemy, then I team kill a friendly with only ten to twenty percent of his total EHP left, I think the game should acknowledge that it was probably an accident where he got in front of me.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 413	Posted - 2013.11.20 18:28:00 - [176] - Quote No system can be perfect. Any system is going to either be overly on the side of penalizing "bad" shots, or too lenient about allowing "bad" shots. Any system with any room for leniency, will have that leniency abused by griefers. To play off your example, and imagine a lenient system; (well, what if we make it so that you dont get dinged, if you were hitting an enemy, within 1.0 seconds of another guy 'jumping into' your line of fire?) That just means that griefers will make sure to have an enemy in the background while they then hose off allies with their GEK at the same time. All they have to do is move themselves to line up the double shot. So.. I'm pushing for the penalties with no leniency. I'll go back and repeat what I said before: You have EVERY TEAMMATE ON YOUR TAC RADAR. If there is ANY chance they could "jump in your line of fire".. then dont open fire. If you are already firing, and someone comes within "jump in your line of fire" range.. STOP FIRING. That is 100% in your control, so NO excuses.
Suanar Daranaus Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 55	Posted - 2013.11.20 22:27:00 - [177] - Quote ic rbow wrote: Friendly Fire in public matches? It's AWOX time! What about jumping with into a friendly line of fire four times to have someone "grind about 800+ matches to get back"? Question: What is 'AWOX' ?
Suanar Daranaus Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 55	Posted - 2013.11.20 22:28:00 - [178] - Quote Also, tried clicking the links in the original post and received the '404' message from them.
Argent Mordred DUST University Ivy League 21	Posted - 2013.11.21 06:51:00 - [179] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: snip Sorry about the length. Note the fact that it requires the person to have very low health, so not lenient. Also, if you are between the enemy and the griefer, how is he supposed to hit them before he kills you?* He would have to shoot the enemy, triggering the 1.0 sec immunity from tk penalties, and then aim and kill you in 1.0 sec or less. Also, it could require you to be standing still (or at least mostly still) so that if you are under cover and shooting, and then someone runs out in front from behind your back, you are not penalized as heavily. However, if you try to shoot an enemy and then strafe your fire into a team mate without penalty, it wouldn't be easy as the margin would be slight, and lining it up would take time.* And I have had times where a blueberry stepped right in front of me at the exact same second as I pulled the trigger. For a real example, I had finally lined up a perfect headshot and I pulled the trigger, half a sec afterwards a knee appeared in the center of my scope right as the rifle fired. It was a pub match. I almost wished for friendly fire so he would not run out and stand in front of a crouched sniper ahead of him. I had decide to position myself in front of others on the hill, so they weren't running in front of me and getting in my way. I thought they would work around me as I wasn't getting in their way. What about grenades? A griefer/new player (first fw battle) could just run right past after a grenade was thrown into a room or group of enemies. You would have not been spamming, but just doing your job, breaching an objective, room, or such; when a blueberry decides to throw himself past you on it. Reasonably experienced players do this on occasion. Ask Fire of Prometheus about one of the recent pc matches. I threw a grenade and then he walked right into it, despite having been five to eight feet directly behind me. I was within his LoS. Finally lots of players are clueless. The only way to avoid any chance of someone jumping right in front of your fire would be to not shoot if in a group of more than two other players. Thus far, I have never had any major incident I can think of where I wasn't able to stop firing in time. The most TKs I have ever gotten in a PC is two or so. However, friendly blindberries seem determined to cluelessly wander into fire as I am shooting to test my reaction time. Like monkeys on a typewriter, given enough time and the amount of players, it is bound to become a problem that is a pain for a percentage of players (though possibly a sizable one.) Unfortunately, I and everyone else in the human race has limited reaction time; and if tking penalties are too strong for minor offenses, then all it does is frustrate players by requiring grinding 50 or such matches because a few kill-crazed players wandered into their own teams orbital despite the effects warning them. I am pretty sure if you analysed the matches, the number one thing that would be come apparent is that if more players are present, someone will mess up. It would be become a law of probability, "Wherever three or more players are gathered, it is almost assured that someone will do something more idiotic than Leeroy Jenkins." In short, stuff does actually happen that isn't always your fault. However, there are some simple parameters that would allow the game to avoid penalizing players for that while minimizing unintended consequences. Hint, you are in his way. The system would work that you have to hurt an enemy then tk to be forgiven, so you can't tk and then shoot an enemy to get away free. * Or at all, it doesn't have to be a tk or not tk, there is room for degrees. *** Which you don't have in a firefight. Might not prevent the possibility, but if the margin is small and exceedingly difficult to do, most won't waste time but find easier ways to grief or not bother.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 413	Posted - 2013.11.21 20:27:00 - [180] - Quote Argent Mordred wrote: And I have had times where a blueberry stepped right in front of me at the exact same second as I pulled the trigger. and this exactly fits in with what I was describing. you havent said anything that makes it an exception from "you should have checked your TACNET". You didnt bother, because you *didnt have to* This would make it that you will have to. Quote: What about grenades? already covered. Quote: Finally lots of players are clueless. The only way to avoid any chance of someone jumping right in front of your fire would be to not shoot if in a group of more than two other players. That is grossly overstating. More accurate would be, "don't group up with people you dont know have a clue"

Argent Mordred DUST University Ivy League 23	Posted - 2013.11.22 03:20:00 - [181] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: 1. and this exactly fits in with what I was describing. you havent said anything that makes it an exception from "you should have checked your TACNET". You didnt bother, because you *didnt have to* This would make it that you will have to. already covered. Quote: Finally lots of players are clueless. The only way to avoid any chance of someone jumping right in front of your fire would be to not shoot if in a group of more than two other players. That is grossly overstating. 2. More accurate would be, "don't group up with people you dont know have a clue" 1. I do check my tacnet, I am often in place or on point, then a random (not a squad or corp member) blufor runs out in front of me when he was behind me anywhere from five/ten feet to off the radar. I am not firing over his shoulder. I am also not worried about people fleeing towards me, I can see them. It is people who come out of nowhere from behind through the middle your firefight. I also can't see the map and use a sniper rifle's scope, last I checked; next time I play I will make sure. If you make a wide radius with everyone behind you and too close, and some one stills tries to run out in front of you when you have already opened fire, I am hard pressed to see how you are at complete fault. Usually a round or two at most hits, but eventually something is going to happen to a surprising amount of players. Say someone rushing into a friendly's lane of fire while being hit with lots of enemy fire, the enemy gets an assist and you get a tk. Also what about weapons that physically can't stop or are high damage/ one hit kill weapons, such as the burst weapons. What do you think will happen if a blueberry runs from off screen into the path of a burst hmg right as it starts it's forty round burst? If it is like the burst rifle, it won't stop firing when you release the trigger. Or someone darting in between two people in a cqb firefight when the friendly one has an breach shotgun, say either on flat ground when the team member is aiming for a headshot or when the tk bait is in a militia or basic scout suit. 2. I am not in a squad with them, the matchmaking just happened to put us on a team. And being on a team means that you work together sometimes to take an objective even if a lot of the team tends to lemming rush into enemy and friendly fire. Otherwise, I suppose we must try the strategy of the whole team breaking up and going after completely different things and see how that does(n't) work.
cSRT4 SyNergy Gaming EoN. 38	Posted - 2013.12.11 23:36:00 - [182] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: cSRT4 wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: I run million-ISK tanks. What's to stop some asshat from dropping REs from a fresh alt to ruin my day? Again and again and again? Pilots have a lot to lose from this mechanic. Far more than anyone else does. You blow up a ** ing supply depot when I'm playing on your team and it WILL happen. WILL! GUARANTEED! If you're not one of those tankers, I have no beef with you. But I WILL get my point across fairly quickly to all those asshat tankers that blow up supply depots for 50 ing points! You're what's wrong with Dust. It's not for 50 points, it's because the blues can't hold an objective let alone a depot 50 meters away. Why would I let a depot survive that's being used by 3 guys to switch to easy mode swarms? That's you're a *** loser idiot. Gotta get those 50 pts. *** ****. You're really helping your team out blowing up those supply depots with your million $ tank. Idiot.


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