This is the million ISK question that NOT A SINGLE Anti-logi supporter has been able to give a good answer to. The discussions always seem to go like this:

Anti-logi guy: Nerf the Logis!
Me: Why do Logis need to be nerfed?
Anti-logi guy: Because people are using the Caldari logi suit as an assault suit!
Me: Then why don't they just nerf the Caldari Logi suit?
Anti-logi guy: No, my problem isn't with the Caldari suit. The entire class has to be nerfed so they can only use sidearms.
Me: Why does the entire class need to be nerfed?
Anti-logi #2: NERF THE LOGIS!!!
Anti-logi #1: EXACTLY! NERF THE LOGIS!
Me: lolwut?

It is mind boggling how that one question is either completely ignored or shuts down all Anti-logi talk. I honestly don't even expect them to answer this thread, but I want CCP to realize that their "suggestions" should be ignored and they should find a more reasonable alternative.

Here are some alternatives:

Wait for the scrambler rifle to become the Cal Logis natural predator.
Stacking penalties on dropsuit modules
Switch the caldari Logis bonus with the assault/buff the Assaults in general
Limit the Caldari logi and ONLY the Caldari Logi to a sidearm, their shields can take getting into smg range.

Logis are already a huge SP sink, it takes 2 mil to get the most basic of any race. The other racial suits can barely touch the assaults, even the Amarr that is supposed to be a Logi with some Assault qualities. Don't make three+ roles completely unplayable.

Because the caldari logistics is not the only problem, its all four of them being > assaults.

Because the caldari logistics is not the only problem, its all four of them being > assaults.

Because they're better than assault suits are at their own job. That surely wasn't worth a million isk?

Because they're better than assault suits are at their own job. That surely wasn't worth a million isk?

Because the caldari logistics is not the only problem, its all four of them being > assaults.

Because the caldari logistics is not the only problem, its all four of them being > assaults.

Wow, and I honestly believed you would be good for the CPM. Can you explain how the minmatar or gallente suite are better assaults? The Minmatar is basically wet paper in front of anything and the gallente could at best be equipped with armor plates which would make them slow as all hell. The only one you could make a case for is the Amarr logi. However, the Amarr Logi was designed to be logistics with a side of assault. It still has less HP and pg than the Amarr assault. Not to mention they have one less equipment slot.

So please tell me who exactly is using the other three suits as assaults. Don't tell me you actually believe our only purpose as Logis are to be your butlers on the battlefield?

Are you complaining that people want a support class to be a support class?
.

Because the caldari logistics is not the only problem, its all four of them being > assaults.

This. ur bias is showing when you make this argument. u also lose credibility. logis now have their specialty as no other class gets more than 1 equip slot. there's no reason to go assault when logis will have more slots and equip than you. logis need less high and low than assaults of the same class. now those of you who want to stack damage & shield mods and use it like an uber assault wont like this but no reasonable person would argue it.

proto caldari logi should be 3/2 with 3 equip slots

This. ur bias is showing when you make this argument. u also lose credibility. logis now have their specialty as no other class gets more than 1 equip slot. there's no reason to go assault when logis will have more slots and equip than you. logis need less high and low than assaults of the same class. now those of you who want to stack damage & shield mods and use it like an uber assault wont like this but no reasonable person would argue it.

proto caldari logi should be 3/2 with 3 equip slots

This is a common misconception.

In FF both Black mage and Red mage can learn some healing spells, are they the support characters in that game? No, that would be White Mage. Can they be used for support? Yes.

In Legend Of Dragoon, Lavits and Albert can use a move that increases the teams defense, and Rose can learn a weak healing move. Are any of them support characters? No. Can they support the team? Yes.

Having some properties of a support character does not make the character a support character. Logis are not a support role just because they can carry more equipment than assault players.

You want to see a support class?
- Take the basic medium suits
- keep all stats, that includes speed and HP
- give it the slot layout of our current logi suits, that includes equipment
- Take their light weapon away and leave them with just a side arm, Amarr gets two side arms.

Currently every suit in the game is designed with killing as their primary role, logis are far too versatile to be mere babysitters.

That speaks to the weakness of the assault not the strength of the Logis. The logis work exactly as they should, they are versatile and doing many functions. It excels as a slayer because there isnt a better rock in place to keep the scissor in check.

Better movement, better racial bonus for assault(dmg and/or tanking bonuses) and a reduction/change of the caldari logi suit bonus is all thats really needed.

Fact is there simply isnt a stark enough difference between logi and assualt suits to deter logi suits as the primary suit. But to blankly say that the Logi suits across the board are the problem without looking at the whole balance of suits is as myopic as saying the TAC AR is OP in the current weapon balance(without considering the other weapons and their relation to it).

The assault suits need more mobility and better base heath(or reduction in caldari logi bonus) to make them a better slayer suit by comparison..

This. ur bias is showing when you make this argument. u also lose credibility. logis now have their specialty as no other class gets more than 1 equip slot. there's no reason to go assault when logis will have more slots and equip than you. logis need less high and low than assaults of the same class. now those of you who want to stack damage & shield mods and use it like an uber assault wont like this but no reasonable person would argue it.

proto caldari logi should be 3/2 with 3 equip slots

Black Mages in final fantasy traditionally never learned 'healing' spells unless you consider Drain Drainra Drainga a heal spell but drain doesnt really spread the gained hp elsewhere. Red mages (Red Velvet is a combination of vanillia and chocolate) are white and black mixed. So its natural they learn some heal spells from on of thier parents.

starting to think u have a problem understanding basic concepts.

your buff everything else argument fails hard. any programmer with half a brain knows you tweak as little as possible not only to save time but to not create issues elsewhere. caldari assault is fine, slayers arent having problems killing people. why exchange problems and create one there instead of solving them? this is a good protocol even if you arent a dev with a release 48 hours from now.

hold on are u really arguing that the tac ar is ok in its current form? never mind. wont debate with u second longer. u lack the brainpower to form basic arguments.

The caldari logi is the problem. Not the entire class. The Logis have always had more equip slots than the anyone but it was never a problem before. Again, just buff one of the assault suits with an equip slot, give them a damage boost, or just give the caldari logi a sidearm. No reason to carpet bomb the entire class.

starting to think u have a problem understanding basic concepts.

your buff everything else argument fails hard. any programmer with half a brain knows you tweak as little as possible not only to save time but to not create issues elsewhere. caldari assault is fine, slayers arent having problems killing people. why exchange problems and create one there instead of solving them? this is a good protocol even if you arent a dev with a release 48 hours from now.

hold on are u really arguing that the tac ar is ok in its current form? never mind. wont debate with u second longer. u lack the brainpower to form basic arguments.

And crap design is not fixed with nerfs. Your lazy halfassed approach does not fix the issue, Assault suits were not designed properly and only one Logi Suit is over powered. You going to tell me weapon reload is some important impactful bonus?

Black Mages in final fantasy traditionally never learned 'healing' spells unless you consider Drain Drainra Drainga a heal spell but drain doesnt really spread the gained hp elsewhere. Red mages (Red Velvet is a combination of vanillia and chocolate) are white and black mixed. So its natural they learn some heal spells from on of thier parents.

Coupled with the fact that the amarr logi can hit something like 115 amor hp/s when being hit by a repair tool, and like 30-40/s without one?

If CCP just lowers the max number of high and low slots of suits, that could settle this issue. 8 total slots on any suit is too many.

oh I get it, anything to keep your slots.

TBH... None of the suits in uprising are 'Fine'. Just because everything is broken, doesn't mean they're balanced.
Rather than buff every weapon, nerfing and tweaking the suits back down to the original baseline is the better option.

Preach brother preach.
I mean reload speed its so valuable a bonus thats why everyone maxxes out this skill immediately

You want to take their slots? Fine, give them back their base stats. It's so easy to talk about slots while ignoring that all of their base stats are lower. they simply have more freedom in designing their role than an assault suit, it doesn't make them better.

5 from bonus, +15 minus stacking penalty equals 30 +???

The caladari 750 total shields is OP sonsidering it allows them to stack 2 damage mods and still have more HP than my Galante Assault.

Tell CCP to start from scratch, I'm sure it would be more balanced than this.

Would you care to explain your logic?

How is the Amarr Logi better than the Amarr Assault?
It will always have less HP and be slower than the assault suit, that seems like a fair trade for the 2 equipment slots.

Edit: If I had too, I would remove 1 equipment slot from the Gallanete and Minmatar suits, and 1 low slot from the Caldari suit(along with changing it's bonus of course)

Edit 2: And you guys and CCP should really check out Logi Bro's thread, it makes a lot more sense than some of our current bonuses.

This is a common misconception.

In FF both Black mage and Red mage can learn some healing spells, are they the support characters in that game? No, that would be White Mage. Can they be used for support? Yes.

In Legend Of Dragoon, Lavits and Albert can use a move that increases the teams defense, and Rose can learn a weak healing move. Are any of them support characters? No. Can they support the team? Yes.

Having some properties of a support character does not make the character a support character. Logis are not a support role just because they can carry more equipment than assault players.

You want to see a support class?
- Take the basic medium suits
- keep all stats, that includes speed and HP
- give it the slot layout of our current logi suits, that includes equipment
- Take their light weapon away and leave them with just a side arm, Amarr gets two side arms.

Currently every suit in the game is designed with killing as their primary role, logis are far too versatile to be mere babysitters.

[
Why would you REMOVE equipment slots from a LOGI. That is our main thing, equipment. Without that extra slot, we are basically an assault.

The caladari 750 total shields is OP sonsidering it allows them to stack 2 damage mods and still have more HP than my Galante Assault.

I honestly agree. A new baseline needs to be established. We are beyond the time for slow and steady tweaks. When pretty much nothing in your game is in a good place and no clear baseline exists... Drastic, system-wise changes to establish a new baseline are necessary.

Our main thing is versatility, not being pack mules for assaults.

5 hp from skill + two skills that provide 25% bonus each to armor repair modules (which do not have stacking penalties)

If they use those mods for shields... then where did they get the room for damage mods exactly?

So 337.5 + 445.5 = 783 EHP, that's using all the slots for shields, where did they get room for damage mods again.

783(L) - 702.9(A) = 80.1 HP difference. The logi has 80 more HP that the assault suit... thanks to it's bonus. otherwise:
Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 290.4 =702.9 EHP
Caldari Logistics:337.5 + 363 = 700.5 EHP
Both using all their shields.

Why would you REMOVE equipment slots from a LOGI. That is our main thing, equipment. Without that extra slot, we are basically an assault.

Versatility is included in having equipment. If you want to get all holier-than-thou and stuck up on every other type. You aren't going to survive. Everyone needs everyone in Dust. If you can't handle that then please leave the Logi community, and don't get butter on the door.

The problem with the logistics class is all of them have bonuses to survivability, and assaults have bonuses to fitting.

That doesn't seem backwards to you?

Coupled with the fact that the amarr logi can hit something like 115 amor hp/s when being hit by a repair tool, and like 30-40/s without one?

Caldari isn't the only logi that needs work.

If you switched the passive bonuses between assault and logistics (And tweaked assault pg/cpu because they kind of got shafting in uprising anyways) things would mostly work themselves out. But anyone who says the logistics class as a whole is 'fine' is deluded.

TBH... None of the suits in uprising are 'Fine'. Just because everything is broken, doesn't mean they're balanced.


Uprising raised the baseline for suit HP balance to an unreasonable degree, and weapons did not really change to match.

Rather than buff every weapon, nerfing and tweaking the suits back down to the original baseline is the better option.

easy answer: because he doesnt need them. he plays the class as assault so equip slots make no difference.

I'm saying if they run 3 complex shield extenders and 2 damage mods they still have more effective HP than armor charecters. (If they want to runn a decent repper.

How about 12 including equipment, grenades, weapons, and high/low slots?

facepalm.

Really are we trying to put the suits into boxed in roles. While we are at it why not weapon restrictions. After all i hear heavies should only carry heavy weapons. Perhaps we should also prevent logis from using any dmg mods since they shouldnt be trying to kill at all. OH oh i know lets also make it so scouts can only use snipers and assaults can only use rifles and pistols while we are at it.

Thats how killzone, battlefield, socom, rainbox 6 and every other squad/class based shooter does it.

Most other games with classes never give their medics superior guns though.

Maybe the whole class is wrong, because every other class is wrong and Logi is the only right class there is.

H'mm I could have sworn they did... but they do still learn other support spells, such as haste or temper. I think we can all agree that while he can support the team, the Balck Mage's role is usually not that of support role.

Logi's if anything are red mages, and they should not ever be made mere support characters.

Superior guns, where? You mean our damage mods? The same ones with stacking penalties? Nothing a 2% damage bonus per level for assault suits wouldn't fix.

And false, Shana and Meru (the medics) have the single highest damage potential in The Legend of Dragoon.

replacing their broadswords with fencing swords

... If that's code for "sidearms" then tell me now so I can just be a Proto Amarr Basic next respec.

I am just saying most other class shooter games gives their medics carbines, smgs, pistols, or needle guns/crossbows instead of rocket launchers, vulcan cannons, or assault rifles.

No balance changes have been announced or asked for from CCP if you're wondering. However you should avoid going into classes just because they are currently 'overpowered' because of the impending nerfs. If you are a long time CCP player you should always expect the top dog in the game to get nerfed or outclassed by the previously worst option, it has always happened and will continue to happen.

If you're trying to get me to spec into scout suits then it ain't happening bro

I have seen lots of Cal logis are OP threads and they have the numbers to back it up but please someone tell me this, What makes the other 3 race logi's OP?

Funnily enough everytime I have asked this question one of the following happens 1. I get ignored and people say Cal logi = OP so nerf all logis. 2. People say logis are all OP and need to be able to only use sidearms without giving reasoning behind this.

I use the Minmatar logi and the bottom line is if they nerf the entire logistics class just because the Caldari (which the scrambler rifle was designed for) doesn't have a sustainable effective counter yet and the assault bonuses pale in comparison, I quit. Nerfing an entire class before an actual meta game can take place and adjusting the other suits is a sign of laziness as a developer and my time and money would be better spent somewhere else.

If you ever played a mmo FF with red mages you'll get why they're closest thing to logis, their flexibility is indisputable and that is where I am strongly so disagreement in a nerf alternative that lowers their fittings vs replacing their broadswords with fencing swords instead.

I am just saying once the scrambler rifle forces the caldari logi to fall out of favor most people will be swapping to the gallente logistics to meet thier needs.

I am just saying once the scrambler rifle forces the caldari logi to fall out of favor most people will be swapping to the gallente logistics to meet thier needs.

I am just saying once the scrambler rifle forces the caldari logi to fall out of favor most people will be swapping to the gallente logistics to meet thier needs.

The Gallenet Logi can either stack armor plates which would make it slower, or kinetic mods, which would make it faster but more fragile than it's Assault counterpart. It's not comparable to the difference between the Cladari suits because most of their HP doesn't recover as easily. The Gallente suit does have a small advantage because of it's built-in armor repper, but not enough to save them considering how small their shield buffer is anyway, their speed is what makes or breaks those suits.

And yes, we know that one day there will be plates with no penalties.

Here's a true sign that you're wrong this time IWS. I'm agreeing with Keyser. @.@

I am just saying once the scrambler rifle forces the caldari logi to fall out of favor most people will be swapping to the gallente logistics to meet thier needs.

You know, if they didn't nerf the HMG and make the other suits suck, we wouldn't be here. Before suggesting to punish an entire class to be nerfed, look at your own and ask yourself if those bonuses are worth keeping.

You know, he actually does know what he's talking about when he isn't trolling are spreading Imp propaganda

The issue is that in translating this to DUST, with our limited selection of sidearms, what you end up proposing is replacing their broadswords with butter knives.

Some of you are also forgetting how much more powerful of a fit is possible once you start leaving equipment slots empty slayer fits only need 1-2 equipment used.

Doing so allows you to upgrade some other modules in this swiss army knife fit.

So I did more maths, and including the the passives that leads them to having 101.4 PG
Minus 55 for the extenders and you have 46.4.

That's more than enough to put some decent gear on there. The Balacs I believe is 13 PG? The most fitting expensive Nano-hive is 16 PG. With those two you have 17.4 PG left, that should fit you a complex kinetic module and a basic armor repair module or shield regulator. Or you can get a power grid upgrade so you can put some grenades and more equipment.

Now, that isn't the most optimal fitting, but it certainly has a lot of possibilities.

hence why there was a call for carbines in the original idea that spawned all the accusations. It would be a side arm variant of current rifles similar fittings but lower rate of fire and magazine of the sorts.

Honestly, IWS needs to never pipe up on matters of balance, he doesn't have the right mindset for it :P


The logistics suits ARE a problem. They are not the -only- problem though.

But so is everything else. All of the suits have been disrupted heavily by uprising, and there is no longer any reasonable baseline between them.


Nerfing logi suits is necessary, but it's not the end-all of making things balanced. Every suit and weapon in the game needs tweaking (some severe, others minor) to restore the baseline of balance. That said, making everything equal is not balance... it is boring. Individual flair is important, so long as a proper level of power is maintained throughout the list. Power requires drawbacks, and drawbacks require advantages. This simple dynamic does not really exist in an acceptable way for most things in the game right now, and nothing really relates nicely with each other. To repeat my gimmick phrase : There is no baseline for balance right now.


The baseline is bad, and there is not a single item (or group thereof) where you can simply say "nerf this and everything will be fine"

The Gallenet Logi can either stack armor plates which would make it slower, or kinetic mods, which would make it faster but more fragile than it's Assault counterpart. It's not comparable to the difference between the Cladari suits because most of their HP doesn't recover as easily. The Gallente suit does have a small advantage because of it's built-in armor repper, but not enough to save them considering how small their shield buffer is anyway, their speed is what makes or breaks those suits.

And yes, we know that one day there will be plates with no penalties.

Armor plates without penalty? In what world are you living? They give you more HP then shield extenders and still offer you other things in the high slot. You cant have mobility and craploads of HP on armor. Shields are designed to be quick but less HP then armor. You have to think about it that in 1vs1 encounters armor is a better advantage cause you can take more bullets at a time. On the other hand shields are popular due to their fast recharge time. Most experienced players would pick armor+damage mods over shield without damage mods.

Honestly, IWS needs to never pipe up on matters of balance, he doesn't have the right mindset for it :P


The logistics suits ARE a problem. They are not the -only- problem though.

But so is everything else. All of the suits have been disrupted heavily by uprising, and there is no longer any reasonable baseline between them.


Nerfing logi suits is necessary, but it's not the end-all of making things balanced. Every suit and weapon in the game needs tweaking (some severe, others minor) to restore the baseline of balance. That said, making everything equal is not balance... it is boring. Individual flair is important, so long as a proper level of power is maintained throughout the list. Power requires drawbacks, and drawbacks require advantages. This simple dynamic does not really exist in an acceptable way for most things in the game right now, and nothing really relates nicely with each other. To repeat my gimmick phrase : There is no baseline for balance right now.


The baseline is bad, and there is not a single item (or group thereof) where you can simply say "nerf this and everything will be fine"

Some of you are also forgetting how much more powerful of a fit is possible once you start leaving equipment slots empty slayer fits only need 1-2 equipment used.

Doing so allows you to upgrade some other modules in this swiss army knife fit.

Because the caldari logistics is not the only problem, its all four of them being > assaults.

I'm all in for the removal of my light weapon for this carbine.

Question to anyone with more knowledge than me, how is my Amarr Logisuit OP?
I thought that it was a balanced suit, but turns out it was just me thinking that.

IWS shows how much of a unready scrub he is by displaying his ignorance. Just another butthurt player who wants an entire class nerfed because one suit is broken.

Never considered just tweaking the bonuses per level did you?

I did, people would have gotten far more angrier (from the already currently angry) a 10x skill is even more useless.

The Gallenet Logi can either stack armor plates which would make it slower, or kinetic mods, which would make it faster but more fragile than it's Assault counterpart. It's not comparable to the difference between the Cladari suits because most of their HP doesn't recover as easily. The Gallente suit does have a small advantage because of it's built-in armor repper, but not enough to save them considering how small their shield buffer is anyway, their speed is what makes or breaks those suits.

And yes, we know that one day there will be plates with no penalties.

You mean, cause it would no longer be OP (ie fixed). Theres no need to remove our light weapons. Just give logis support bonuses, and give assaults tank bonuses (2% per level instead of 5%). Its like CCP doesnt play their own game. Do you play this game?

This is why this CPM is full of fail, 90% cheerleading, 9% BS, 1% leading.

I did, people would have gotten far more angrier (from the already currently angry) a 10x skill is even more useless.

won't matter they could have the same exact suit with a side arm slot, i'lln++ just spec smgs then, same results.

I am sorry but the voices crying over the current specialization skills being too high are much louder than those crying for a nerf on the suit.

Still I would like to hear a real expert tell us all how to balance the logi, I haven't seen one good suggestion yet.

I am sorry but the voices crying over the current specialization skills being too high are much louder than those crying for a nerf on the suit.

Still I would like to hear a real expert tell us all how to balance the logi, I haven't seen one good suggestion yet.

Just because something is popular doesnt make it the right choice. Its this kneejerk "nerf everything" reaction that has continually ****** this game. You're failure to see that should be enough to disqualify you from your previous CPM position.

I and others have provided plenty of solutions, not our fault you don't take the time to read them. Step down and hand the position over to someone who is ready.

Oh lookie, I made it easy for you https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75779&find=unread

Stop trying to push the sidearm restriction issue IWS. TheMark0f22, the person who made the video that's got all of us talking in the first place has already said he can do the same thing with SMGs:

Burning all the logis at the stake won't help and nerfing the CaLogi isn't going to help in the big picture of things. All the other suits need their racial bonuses adjusted so they can be attractive compared to the logi. Logistics finally got to a good place compared to chrome and nerfing them again will be counterproductive to the lifespan of this game. Buff the other suits, (and the HMG) wait for the scrambler rifle shows up, and leave logis alone.

FInally, people are making sense. Where was this 2 years ago.

Well I am quite sure if people didn't play rumor mill the issue would have never been pushed around for me in the first place.

Also I am not the only guy that suggested side arms only, I was the only guy that suggested 2x sidearms however with carbine support.

Unfortunately with only 2 bonuses one of which is locked in from tech 1 skills, the tech 2 skills are the only real place to be screwing around and tbh most of them are very needed (gal's fitting bonus) or just don't help out and are too restrictive (minnie's hacking bonus) to a play style instead of allowing for a wide variety of play-styles.

If going back to the original idea that spawned this whole mess you would see that the idea calls for 4 bonuses, 2 bonuses to be shared across the entire size of the frame (by race) while 2 more for the tech 2 that would assist in its function.

Tell me again how goign to sidearms only fixes the caldari logis SUPER TANK? (heres a hint, it doenst). That logi is OP due ot tanking ability, not its ability to carry a light weapon. Cause > Cure. Its not that hard. Really.

H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG
H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG
H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG
H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG
H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11 PG

Total = 270 CPU/ 55 PG

L: Complex Shield Regulator 35 CPU/ 3 PG
L: Complex Kinetic mod 27 CPU/ 15 PG
L:Basic Armor Repairer 20 CPU / 1 PG
L: Basic CPU Upgrade = 16% more CPU

Total = 83 CPU / 19 CPU

LW: Balac: 90 CPU 13 PG
G: Core Locus grenade 48 CPU / 6 PG
Or Allotek Flux 52 CPU / 6 PG

Total: 138 or 142 CPU / 19 PG

E: Ishkone Gauged Nano Hive: 59 CPU / 11PG
E: Blank
E: Blank

Total: 59 CPU /11 PG

CPU Available: 507 / PG available: 101.4

Total CPU Used: 550 or 554 CPU / PG used: 104

But that doesn't fit right? Except 507 x 1.16 = 588.12

Still not enough PG right? Assault Rifle Fitting skill(whatever it's called 13 x .25 = 3.25
104 - 3.25 = 100.75

So all this just barely fit, but is it really that much better than what can be done with a Caldari Assault Suit?

Edit:
Without CL bonus:
Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 290.4 =702.9 EHP
Caldari Logistics:337.5 + 363 = 700.5 EHP

With CL Bonus: 337.5 + 445.5 = 783 EHP
783(L) - 702.9(A) = 80.1 HP difference.

My god, this is game breaking

Edit: Now if you used a complex CPU Upgrade, and replaced the Basic Armor repairer with a PG Upgrade, then you would be able to fill your other equipment slots, but I want all assault users to realize that this is far more expensive than your suit would ever get.

Tell me again how goign to sidearms only fixes the caldari logis SUPER TANK? (heres a hint, it doenst). That logi is OP due ot tanking ability, not its ability to carry a light weapon. Cause > Cure. Its not that hard. Really.

Wait wait back up a bit.

People complained on how squishy logis where in chomosome, and now that its fixed in uprising you possibly want to nerf it (back) ?

Wait wait back up a bit.

People complained on how squishy logis where in chomosome, and now that its fixed in uprising you possibly want to nerf it (back) ?

Wait wait back up a bit.

People complained on how squishy logis where in chomosome, and now that its fixed in uprising you possibly want to nerf it (back) ?

Thats what kept it balanced in chromosome, in my opinion.

Wait wait back up a bit.

People complained on how squishy logis where in chomosome, and now that its fixed in uprising you possibly want to nerf it (back) ?

Let's spell it out again for you: The entire logistics class, except for the Caldari Logistics is fine. The problem is the Caldari suit doesn't have a support related bonus compared to the others. Even the Amarr, which is supposed to be a pseudo Assault/Logi does it right because the Amarr assult still has advantages over it.

I'm vocal, and being black makes me a minority. Will you start listening to me?

Who in all honesty complained about the logis being squishy?(in last build)

I don't remember all that many threads on it.... Why did CCP listen to them?

and I keep saying the problem will become more apparent once the scrambler rifle makes it in.

Don't worry.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I see the rest of the CPM pushing for balance specific balance changes beyond drawing attention to things that are obviously broken. This is not something we are suited for and in every situation it's better to point CCP to threads on the subjects than to simply say "Sup CCP, make this stat X cause we are CPM"


That's not what the CPM is there for, and it's not what we're going to do. Balance is best left to people who actually understand the concept of fair and objective use... Which is not the case for most of the CPM.

If a nerf comes it's because the community was spamming about it and that's all we had to link to CCP. Just sayin'

If the Scrambler Rifle vs CaLogi war begins next week and the rifle doesn't wind up getting nerfed, Dust 514 will finally be in good shape. Right now all we have are a bunch of QQing tryhards used to being dominant in AAA FPS that don't understand things like effective counters, meta gaming and counter play. Instead they want what their using to be the best in the game and everything else around it to be nerfed to novelty. This is the absolute reason why Dust 514 has been screwed up for the past 2 years. Those are the people who are never happy and no matter how much you cater to them, they never will be happy. CCP needs to focus on building a middleground between an FPS and EVE, which for the exception of chrome, they've done excellently and may finally have that balance in uprising once weapons get teaked to compete with the AR.

CCP, stop catering to the "hardcore" FPSers. They're all going to leave when the next CoD comes out anyway.

If the Scrambler Rifle vs CaLogi war begins next week and the rifle doesn't wind up getting nerfed, Dust 514 will finally be in good shape. Right now all we have are a bunch of QQing tryhards used to being dominant in AAA FPS that don't understand things like effective counters, meta gaming and counter play. Instead they want what their using to be the best in the game and everything else around it to be nerfed to novelty. This is the absolute reason why Dust 514 has been screwed up for the past 2 years. Those are the people who are never happy and no matter how much you cater to them, they never will be happy. CCP needs to focus on building a middleground between an FPS and EVE, which for the exception of chrome, they've done excellently and may finally have that balance in uprising once weapons get teaked to compete with the AR.

CCP, stop catering to the "hardcore" FPSers. They're all going to leave when the next CoD comes out anyway.

no ccp doesnt even need to balance between FPS and EVE, FPSs have a long track record of varied and balanced weapons sets in fact prior to video games becoming popular enough for FPSs to sell out to casual gamers they were considered hard core and frankly rivaled RTS for counter play. CCP needs to look to quake and unreal, those games and many others understood good weapons ballance.

The fact that a gun has to be made specifically to kill 1 class is ridiculous, I also highly doubt that they are making it for the purpose of killing Caldari logistics. There is nothing wrong with the Logistics, or the Assault suits, the only problem is the Caldari Logistics and their racial bonus. A quick fix without nerfing their bonus is to remove or lower the movement penalty from armor plates.

It's not made for one class it's made to counter shield tankers since they still have a slight advantage against armor. There are already plenty of EM weapons in the game that melt shields: Scrambler Pistol, Laser, Sniper Rifles, Forge Guns, and Flux grenades. The scrambler rifle is just going to even the playing field out more because there isn't a true mid range weapon to counter shields yet. It's all about rock, paper, scissors but with shields, EM, armor, Kinetics, and Hybrids.... you get the point I hope.

This makes sense I get it, I just wish it counted as a hybrid since using it as an assault wont get any bonuses.

mmmm back to the "don't nerf all logis" thread or is it only me who feels we have gotten a bit off track and are harting a bit ot much at IWS

IF !! all logis have to give something up this is how i would imagine it happening:

LOGIS: overall bonus make equipment take 5% or 10% less CPU/PG per level.
Then also nerf CPU and PG by like 10%-20% and make logis go 0.2-0.3 slower than they do right now. The CPU/PG nerf but equipment bonus is meant to even out the difference so that putting on equipment as logis are meat to have won't be the problem. But if the logi tries to go all out complex shield this will now take up a bigger percentage of the overall CPU/PG than it would before therefore restricting a logi to go fx 5 complex shields or complex plates (LOL to last ). Logis are meant to be more squishy than assaults that's why we have lower base EHP and are slower than assaults. Instead logis are forced to use a big deal of their slots to try and even this out. Or at least this is what i do !!!
Assaults already have this this higher base EHP and speed so they can focus on stuff like putting damage mods or more stamina.
Hopefully something like this will make logi fits get a bit more "squishy" but make them retain the ability to equip a lot of equipments and help their team. Just my idea IF !! IF logis need to get a nerf i'll rather have something liek this than having logi slot layout bumped to assault level

AMARR: 10% bonus to armor repair module and equipment effectiveness per level
MINMATAR: 5% bonus to hacking speed and DISTANCE.
CALDARI: 10% bonus to shield regen per level. <----( Caldari logis won't get a major EHP buff but will be able to attend downed players and get back into cover and heal up)
GALLENTE: 1 HP/s passive armor repair. (galls pretty much stay as they are good now bonuswise )

ASSAULT: overall bonus 2% bonus to weapon damage.
AMARR: 10% bonus to weapon ammo capacity per level / or something better
MINMATAR: 5% bonus stamina regain and maximum amount.
CALDARI: 3% bonus to reload speed.
GALLENTE: 5% reduction to armor plate drawbacks / or something different

When assaults whine about the extra slots logis get this is where i'll point at the bonus to weapon damage. (everybody has said that assaults should get this and it is a very very good idea )
At level 3 assaults will run around with a extra high slot. In this high slot there has just already been put a enhanced damage for them. FREE OF CHARGE !! No CPU/PG used or anything now that. That's also why you loose your second equipment slot because if you had that you could step into the logis area.
Logi Bro also got some fantastic ideas out so IF !! IF the logis need a nerf look into buffing assaults FIRST and then look at logis again.
PS: heavies and scouts ??? did theey get thrown out or do they also have ****** bonuses ??

No. Not to discount your idea but im tired of conceding the premise that all the Logi's need a nerf or rework. Its so utterly annoying that ppl come up with a bs premise and ppl tell them they are full of BS and then someone trying to appease the whole community comes in with a "compromise"

Well NO im just tired of it. This is an utter bs premise the entire logi class is not in need of nerf and we have given more than enough arguments for why that is. If the Devs want to come in here and discuss it further thats one thing. But there isnt one scraping bit of rationale, proof or data that suggests that the any of the Logis outside of the Caldari needs any work.

snip!

This makes sense I get it, I just wish it counted as a hybrid since using it as an assault wont get any bonuses.

I called for someone to tell me what is OP about the Gal, Min, and Amarr logi about 3 pages ago still waiting lol they just get glossed over.

However IWS complained about what a logi can fit if they dont bother with equipment the simple solution to this make a logi suit invalid fitting unless you fill all the equipment slots and also change the Cal logi bonus to something else seeing as everyone of these logi slayers I have seen have been Caldari. I use Gallente and play support yet I can still go positive but only if I have support as well. But the fact that a logi goes positive obviously means they need a nerf right?

How dare anyone suggest that my Proto Amarr Logi Suit is better than anything if they havent played it. I am a support logi so far I have spent near 11 million sp and i am currently on a huge nerf compared to last build. I am slower I can only afford level 4 nanos due to pg and cant afford to get level 5 specs in engineering. I didn't have enough to skill up in my main weapon. I had to get the proto suit to even have enough points to get an advanced nano injector, proto repair tool and advanced nano hive. I have to give up allot of speed all my offence at the moment due to unable to afford more than exile and packed av gren when in the last build I used proto on every equipment slot avanced weapon and proto grens for further support to my team.

So here are my issues with me:

1. Proto suit has cost me offence and support through proto grens and bpo guns

2. Bright yellow on my suit has made me a target amounst my fellows

3. I am way slower since my suit is slow plus to take advantage of racial bonus I have to have armour to take advantage of repers.

4. I cant afford stamina buffs Sp wise for a long time as I still havent got core skills or maxed my support passives e.g. armor, enginegenering, support, armour reppers (self) or even any type of points in weaponry atm.

5. Even if I was level 5 in nano hives I cant afford to run proto nano injectors or proto nanohives due to having more slots than my assault but less base pg. This is to say nothing of being to use more than advanced weapons or grens.

For me as an Amarr Support logi this build has been a massive nerf I am equimpent slots down, and massive PG nerf means I cant support my team like I used to I have to make major sacrifices in offence, support or defence.


I don't know about caldari logi's but for me as a support logi as Amarr I have allready had a massive nerf in both pg and skill points I cannot do what I did in chromazone.

If assault players are using logi's to do assault by not specing in support and only using slots for pure offence why the hell would one nerf me who is struggling to be anywhere near as efficent on the battlefield as I was before. Before I was good at everything but master at none. Now I am poor at many things and good at one or two things.

My logi needs a buff in order to do what the discription says i.e. to be a support character who can dish out the damage. Because as of now I have the least PG, least equipment slots and cost a huge price in SP to make the proto suit work at minimal proto support levels.

In order to be a viable support class I had to talk to my clan leader and explain that I would have to be baby sat during engagments as by spending my points in proto logi and proto repair and advanced nanos has severly affected my ability to defend myself against advanced or proto gear players.

Nerfing the logi's are going to drive the support logi's out of the game. I want buffs to do my job properly not nerfs that are going to force me to run a severly gimped assault with tiny amount of support.

Because people are too simple minded to think like THIS

This would help. BUt will make overall everyone have a lot more HP. THus creating further inbalance.
I mean, what about scouts then ?

Why buff everything when you can just slightly debuff one thing ? Like takin off some mod-slots on logis and slightly buffing assault CPU\PG.

Heavies is another issue. We only have one variant of this frame.

Your problem is not tied to the fact that logi are unbalanced.
But to the fact that logi demands a massive SP investment.

But i'll return your observation. How can you state things when you only tried Amarr Logi and not Amarr Assault ? And without full skills ?

I tried both logi and assaults with full SP at FF. and logi tends to outmatch Assault easily. Why do you think entire corps run logis for all of their assault players now ?

And asking for tweaks doesnt mean people want to see logis becoming useless.....

A support class should provide support fire and aid players in the battlefield? maybe?


Each logistics suit is superior to its counter part in assault

A support class should provide support fire and aid players in the battlefield? maybe?


Each logistics suit is superior to its counter part in assault

This is why assault suits need a buff...we don't need to nerf logistics, changing the racial bonuses to something less ******** would be nice. Logistics suits have better cpu /pg and more slots with better armor Rep and sheild regan and less delay....how is it that the assault suit has less survivability? Sidearms don't mean jack in the current blob warfare. Sidearms are only needed for av users.

This is why assault suits need a buff...we don't need to nerf logistics, changing the racial bonuses to something less ******** would be nice. Logistics suits have better cpu /pg and more slots with better armor Rep and sheild regan and less delay....how is it that the assault suit has less survivability? Sidearms don't mean jack in the current blob warfare. Sidearms are only needed for av users.

A support class should provide support fire and aid players in the battlefield? maybe?


Each logistics suit is superior to its counter part in assault

Logis need more survivability because they can't repair themselves. They need tank because they stand out as easy targets. Assaults don't need survivability, they need a buff in their primary role: slaying. As far as the sidearm bonus goes, the Minmatar rifle might be a SMG on steroids. It looks like CCP did a lot of groundwork for future additions with Uprising.

It's primarily the Caldari line that's facing a disparity and that's in the racial buffs, those aside here's the breakdown.

Caldari
Assault
More Shields
More Armor
More Shield Recharge
More Movement Speed
More Sprint Speed
Longer Sprint Duration
More Stamina
Higher Stamina Recovery Rate
Higher Scan Precision
Posses a Sidearm

Logi
More CPU/PG
1 More high and low

Amarr
Assault
More Shields
More Shield Recharge
More Movement Speed
More Sprint Speed
Longer Sprint Duration
More Stamina
Higher Stamina Recovery Rate
Higher Scan Precision
MORE PG 70 as apposed to 67


Logi
More CPU


Minmatar
Assault
More Shields
Armor Repair Rate (suit native buff, does not require mods)
More Movement Speed
More Sprint Speed
Longer Sprint Duration
More Stamina
Higher Stamina Recovery Rate
Higher Scan Precision
Posses a Sidearm
1 more High Power slot

Logi
More CPU/PG
More Armor
More Shield Recharge
2 more Low Power slots

Gallente
Assault
More Shields
More Armor
More Shield Recharge
More Movement Speed
More Sprint Speed
Longer Sprint Duration
More Stamina
Higher Stamina Recovery Rate
Higher Scan Precision
Posses a Sidearm

Logi
More CPU/PG
1 More Low Power slot

Note: Since the concerns raised are about the Logi frame being more effective for an Assault build than the Assault frame I have omitted the Equip slots as none of the fits I'm aware of which push the Logi into a surpassing combat role include the ability to fit more than one Equip slot anyway.

So your conclusion is that an additional 1-2 slots and some more CPU/PG at the cost of base shields, base armor, shield recharge rate, base movement speed, base sprint speed, base sprint duration, stamina, stamina recovery, scan precision and a sidearm (Amarr aside, their internal race contrast is different) equates to a straight up better combat fit?
Please break it down for me in detail how is this the case?

Also bear in mind that a Logi fit with all slots filled by the same mods as it's Assault counterpart will be a more expensive fit (due to fitting additional total mods) so even a theoretical Logi suit with the same stats as an equivalent Assault suit will cost more ISK to field (again disregarding any more than 1 Equp slot on the assumption that this Logi isn't being fit for support or engineering).

Cheers,
Cross

EDIT:

^This

Further the assumption that more buffer tank = More survivability is oversimplified. Ignoring the effects scanning, speed, regen, and outgoing dps having on survivability is short sighted. If total raw HP totals (including fits) actually equated to the best combat fit everyone who wanted to excel as a 'slayer' would be running Heavy and all the top spots on the kills board would be held by Heavies. Defense is not equal to offense Assaults are slayers, their role calls for them to excel at gank not tank (which to reiterate actually does increase their overall survivability).

the amarr logi actually has to be buffed. it is the only suit with less PG than its racial assault brother and it has low amount of slots because it pays TWO slots as tax for a sidearm at proto levels.

now the problem: the sidearm is not available until proto making the suit weaker and actually the sidearm is not worth that much when you can run with an AR that is superb at all ranges.

And yes, we know that one day there will be plates with no penalties.
Armor plates without penalty? In what world are you living? They give you more HP then shield extenders and still offer you other things in the high slot. You cant have mobility and craploads of HP on armor. Shields are designed to be quick but less HP then armor. You have to think about it that in 1vs1 encounters armor is a better advantage cause you can take more bullets at a time. On the other hand shields are popular due to their fast recharge time. Most experienced players would pick armor+damage mods over shield without damage mods.

are we all forgetting that logis have a 5 armor rep built in? they don't need to rep themselves. I agree that logi need not be nerfed but assaults get their functionality back, currently logis are better at slaying. The whole build is a big cluster anyhow with precision scanning not doing a damn thing so scouts lose their edge....i dunno, it will all take some work...hopefully it can be fixed before soon tm

Don't nerf logi. Logi is fine.

Buff assault! It's a boring, crappy suit. Give it something special to make it work specing into.

Fixed the above Amarr Logi's have less pg than the assault variant not more.

LOL Fixed by who the same bumbling Devs that created this mess of a build in the first place.

A WHOLE LOT OF STUFF!!!

Cross, brother man, you and Redbleach, I'm glad to see you joined this nonsensical debate recently but we're going to lose in the end it seems, even the CPM seems to be preaching against Logis as a whole entity if words from IWS are to be taken at face value... and by "at face value" I mean the guy actually promoting Logis be limited to a Sidearm only, and all kinds of other ridiculousness. And CCP chose to put this guy up as our voice.

Anyway...



Spot on brother.


I like to math it out for people, but they seem afraid of numbers as hard data, that nice chart of which each suit excels at over it's competitor is simple and clear enough that even the shortest of the short-bus riding community can see there's no SUIT issue at all with anyone except maybe the Cal.

EDIT:

It's not even the class bonuses either as you've both pointed out.

It's the Racial bonus for the Caldari alone being so broken while assault bonuses are almost worthless across the board.

I really hope that these are what are "nerfed" and by "nerfed" I mean re-worked on the Cal Logi and all the assaults to give them more incentive to get into the Class suit branches in the first place and make everyone happier in the long-run, CCP included.

facepalm.

Really are we trying to put the suits into boxed in roles. While we are at it why not weapon restrictions. After all i hear heavies should only carry heavy weapons. Perhaps we should also prevent logis from using any dmg mods since they shouldnt be trying to kill at all. OH oh i know lets also make it so scouts can only use snipers and assaults can only use rifles and pistols while we are at it.

Thats how killzone, battlefield, socom, rainbox 6 and every other squad/class based shooter does it.

Since I use the SMG as my primary weapon even when running an Assault suit I donGÇÖt think this debate will effect me. That being said, I donGÇÖt really get where the Anti-logi side is coming from.

Not allowing this to die. There are fewer more relevant threads.

I'm growing tired of this debate ... CCP will do what they will do.

All I'll say is this ... Iron Wolf, you are supposed to be a representative of the community ... that means you have no opinions or ideas ... you collate the communities opinions and ideas and relay them to CCP.

STOP DEBATING AND START WORKING FOR THE COMMUNITY.

You did the same in reply to the evemail I sent you, debated my ideas and opinions rather than adding them to a list for submission to devs.

I'm losing faith in your position on the council.

I'm growing tired of this debate ... CCP will do what they will do.

All I'll say is this ... Iron Wolf, you are supposed to be a representative of the community ... that means you have no opinions or ideas ... you collate the communities opinions and ideas and relay them to CCP.

STOP DEBATING AND START WORKING FOR THE COMMUNITY.

You did the same in reply to the evemail I sent you, debated my ideas and opinions rather than adding them to a list for submission to devs.

I'm losing faith in your position on the council.

Who said your ideas are immune to being debated or criticized? If its on my desk ITS UP FOR DEBATE from not just me, but from EVERYONE.

What if I told you the idea presented that started this whole thing was not mine at all? I just voulentered to be the guy to be blamed for it by incorporating it into the collection of other people's ideas and putting a popular face on it?

I am not a Features and Ideas forum if that is what you are wondering. I am a bar-o-meter of sorts and if I can have a problem with EVERY idea then in a way I am doing my job because your idea may not vibe with everyone. There may be a flaw in it, it may disrupt other people's play styles, it could easily fail the 1, 2, 3 step process of good idea/bad idea New Eden edition. I will debate everything because I would like to see people think a bit outside and deeper than their first thoughts. Usually far better and more refined ideas are born this way.

As for the statement for what CCP does and doesn't do, CCP does has the full option to ignore everything I say including any and all concerns I gather and put into neat little packages for them on their desks. If CCP wants to listen that's their choice. I am not their boss, I cannot force them to listen to a whining wolf.

Are CCP aware that since splitting the vehicle and dropsuit versions of these skills, the vehicle ones have increased from 1x to 2x but the dropsuit version went from 1x to 5x !?