Since I use the SMG as my primary weapon even when running an Assault suit I donGÇÖt think this debate will effect me. That being said, I donGÇÖt really get where the Anti-logi side is coming from.

Not allowing this to die. There are fewer more relevant threads.

I'm growing tired of this debate ... CCP will do what they will do.

All I'll say is this ... Iron Wolf, you are supposed to be a representative of the community ... that means you have no opinions or ideas ... you collate the communities opinions and ideas and relay them to CCP.

STOP DEBATING AND START WORKING FOR THE COMMUNITY.

You did the same in reply to the evemail I sent you, debated my ideas and opinions rather than adding them to a list for submission to devs.

I'm losing faith in your position on the council.

I'm growing tired of this debate ... CCP will do what they will do.

All I'll say is this ... Iron Wolf, you are supposed to be a representative of the community ... that means you have no opinions or ideas ... you collate the communities opinions and ideas and relay them to CCP.

STOP DEBATING AND START WORKING FOR THE COMMUNITY.

You did the same in reply to the evemail I sent you, debated my ideas and opinions rather than adding them to a list for submission to devs.

I'm losing faith in your position on the council.

Who said your ideas are immune to being debated or criticized? If its on my desk ITS UP FOR DEBATE from not just me, but from EVERYONE.

What if I told you the idea presented that started this whole thing was not mine at all? I just voulentered to be the guy to be blamed for it by incorporating it into the collection of other people's ideas and putting a popular face on it?

I am not a Features and Ideas forum if that is what you are wondering. I am a bar-o-meter of sorts and if I can have a problem with EVERY idea then in a way I am doing my job because your idea may not vibe with everyone. There may be a flaw in it, it may disrupt other people's play styles, it could easily fail the 1, 2, 3 step process of good idea/bad idea New Eden edition. I will debate everything because I would like to see people think a bit outside and deeper than their first thoughts. Usually far better and more refined ideas are born this way.

As for the statement for what CCP does and doesn't do, CCP does has the full option to ignore everything I say including any and all concerns I gather and put into neat little packages for them on their desks. If CCP wants to listen that's their choice. I am not their boss, I cannot force them to listen to a whining wolf.

Are CCP aware that since splitting the vehicle and dropsuit versions of these skills, the vehicle ones have increased from 1x to 2x but the dropsuit version went from 1x to 5x !?

Thank you, that's about what I wanted to hear ... maybe the CPM tag on your avatar should come with a sig line saying something like " My opinions are just that, and will be balanced with yours for CCPs consideration" ... CPM members debating / arguing issues just looks like that is what you are promoting to CCP irrespective of the counter argument.

My point about the skills was a valid one ... I made a thread about it that didn't last, but it certainly seems like they goofed and applied the multipliers the wrong way round in that the vehicle skill is cheaper than the dropsuit skill, but their pre-req skills are the opposite way round ... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=776995#post776995 ... either way the skills are being reworked and are probably finalised now anyway, so if they did goof it and didn't see my thread or notice it, they'll still be 'a feature' when we get the new tree.

I understand you're all bound by an NDA, I wouldn't expect you to divulge any information about work in progress, I just wanted you to ask the question to a dev if those multiplier changes were intended or had been misplaced, so that they could pass it to the right team and they could think 'yeah that's right' or 'ohh we got that wrong, fix it with the tree adjustment' ... I didn''t want an answer, just a confirmation that a dev was aware as my thread wasn't QQing enough and was in the wrong section to attract troll bumps or active debate.

Too late now anyway, hopefully they were considered in the tree revamp.

Mindset is debatable, I come from a RTS modding background not RPGFPS one. I also been designing turned based games on paper for a while and playing them among friends.

FPS games are vastly different because changing a mechanic or simplest of numbers can screw everything way off from player experience because trying to balance for skill is nary impossible task of remaining fair. High skill weapons are typically frustrating as are high skill methods and tactics yet pro's whom pull them off can find it rewarding while noobs will throw the weapon or tactic down in frustration because they're incapable of being anywhere close to matching said performance. On the flipside making a weapon noob friendly can be abused by the 'semi-pros' gankers to pad their numbers while true pros would continue to resort to best skill output means.

Overall FPS games are much more difficult because it becomes a fight between numbers and feelings. So I have to resort to asking this pointed question:

"Why should the logistics class remain the superior slaying class?"

Simply buffing other classes is not going to cause people to move out of it to get the other 'buffed' suits.

Chomosome was honestly more balanced but in the long run, scouts, logis, and heavies where trivialized in existence, "why would you need anyone else when a squad of 4 assaults did everything?"

Why use Scout LAVs?

Why Specialize into Scout suits?

Why use Assaults?

Why use other weapons other than the TAR?

Why drive a HAV?

Why fly a DS?

When you start having bad answers for questions like these you start getting a very bad sense the game is misbalanced to some portion that they need attention.

I am no balance expert, but I know when one side of the sea saw is defiantly off and being not by the numbers person I typically suggest ideas that are typically non-traditional number altercations because of it.

^And this is why I wanted assaults to have no equipment slots earlier in the overall debate but I was somehow convinced otherwise based on access of gear and sp investments.

Further compounding the above statement is to why the original idea that sparked most of this debate with my involvement came into existence.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75214

You have the initial idea that everyone is missing, but you are going about the solution all wrong.

Don't try to balance things by removing elements. Don't reduce DUST, add to it!

We aren't even out of beta yet (yes, we are released, but it's still beta), and everyone is focused on removing things and flattening gameplay even further.

Yes, you can make the Assault player need the logi by removing his equipment slot. But that's a nerf and guaranteed to make the Assault player scream. It does nothing to make scouts viable. It doesn't make piloting viable.

The game needs RTS.

I was drawn to DUST based on the grand ideas of different units being coordinated to accomplish various objectives in order to win the battle.

The battle commander needs to make decisions about where to send his scouts, where and how much artillery he needs, how to obtain spotting information, how to use his air wing to remove a particular threat.

You can't succeed if you balance roles on ambush. We need challenges that require deeper tactics than "kill" if we are ever going to need more roles than slayer.

Everyone is focused on forcing roles based on equipment, but that is bassackwards. Roles must be defined by challenges to be overcome. Define and add those challenges and you won't have a problem as people would naturally fit their suits to the role.

I will say the number of complaints over the logis have died down quite a bit and seeing more of the other classes now. Not sure if influx of new players and weapons is the cause.

Still it may be better to adjust the TAR instead see how it works from there. Maybe it is the weapon itself that is making them seemingly over powered. If done right it may still be the logi goto long range support weapon but assault minded players will likely stray from it

As for boxed roles the thing is about dust 514 none of the roles are boxed so to say, you cannot stop one class from doing another classes job entirely and there is nothing any one class in dust 514 can have exclusivtivly to itself in overall terms. Heavy is the closest thing with Heavy Weapon slot. However the heavy weapons have rivals in light weapon classes.

It is certainly not like many other class based shooters where one class can do something NOBODY else can most heavy machine gunners can't revive people. Most Snipers cannot repair tanks. Most medics are horrible at demolition and anti-tank roles.

Also for those who didn't read the idea I approached the suit restructring with re-designing the whole progression in mind. Design =/= Balance never has, never will. Just poor design will begat silly questions as to why certain things are just plain wrong such as why are flux grenades responsible for more kills than the sleek av grenade. In the case of why does the sleek AV grenade has so much fewer kills over a weapon that is accidentally via semi-rare bug killing people.

Light/Scout: Small, sneaky, fast, good at spotting other sneaky people.
Heavy/Sentinel: Large, slow, powerful, good at controlling and securing a point, but vulnerable at range and against fast targets.
Logi: Support role, limited weapons and direct combat capabilities, but with a variety of equipment to balance it out.
Medium/Assault: Jack of all trades role, able to adapt to a variety of situations.

---

That sounds about right, doesn't it? That's what you'd logically expect if you want a balanced game. Unfortunately, only Scouts and Sentinels work as intended right now.

What should be happening is that Logis keep their equipment, get a buff to speed and base HP, but lose their slots. Medium Frame suits should all have basically the same baseline mobility and survivability for each race, but the Assault gets more adaptable fittings with a large slot complement, while the Logi is better at the support role by not being gimped on speed. You can keep up with most Assaults, or buff to catch up where needed, patch things up, provide ammo, whatever, then move on. Scouts will still outpace you, Assaults will usually out-gun and out-tank you, but you'll be able to hold your own while also making the suits around you better.

Capture the flag?

That's a wonderful detailed comparison of all the other classes compared to the Assault, and a very telling one.

The unstated assumption is that the comparison is made by each role's ability to kill.
You are measuring each role by the yardstick designed for the Assault player.

The leaderboards and the end of match screen make the same assumption.
KDR is king and KDR is the measure of the Assault role so that's what everyone is measured by.

Nowhere do you use a yardstick designed for any other character. Like "The Scout make a far better thief than the Assault".
Why? Because there is no other measure needed in the game modes we have.