DUST Search - Why does the entire Logistics class have to be nerfed?

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

Nova Knife wrote:

Honestly, IWS needs to never pipe up on matters of balance, he doesn't have the right mindset for it :P

The logistics suits ARE a problem. They are not the -only- problem though.

But so is everything else. All of the suits have been disrupted heavily by uprising, and there is no longer any reasonable baseline between them.

Nerfing logi suits is necessary, but it's not the end-all of making things balanced. Every suit and weapon in the game needs tweaking (some severe, others minor) to restore the baseline of balance. That said, making everything equal is not balance... it is boring. Individual flair is important, so long as a proper level of power is maintained throughout the list. Power requires drawbacks, and drawbacks require advantages. This simple dynamic does not really exist in an acceptable way for most things in the game right now, and nothing really relates nicely with each other. To repeat my gimmick phrase : There is no baseline for balance right now.

The baseline is bad, and there is not a single item (or group thereof) where you can simply say "nerf this and everything will be fine"

Mindset is debatable, I come from a RTS modding background not RPGFPS one. I also been designing turned based games on paper for a while and playing them among friends.

FPS games are vastly different because changing a mechanic or simplest of numbers can screw everything way off from player experience because trying to balance for skill is nary impossible task of remaining fair. High skill weapons are typically frustrating as are high skill methods and tactics yet pro's whom pull them off can find it rewarding while noobs will throw the weapon or tactic down in frustration because they're incapable of being anywhere close to matching said performance. On the flipside making a weapon noob friendly can be abused by the 'semi-pros' gankers to pad their numbers while true pros would continue to resort to best skill output means.

Overall FPS games are much more difficult because it becomes a fight between numbers and feelings. So I have to resort to asking this pointed question:

"Why should the logistics class remain the superior slaying class?"

Simply buffing other classes is not going to cause people to move out of it to get the other 'buffed' suits.

Chomosome was honestly more balanced but in the long run, scouts, logis, and heavies where trivialized in existence, "why would you need anyone else when a squad of 4 assaults did everything?"

Why use Scout LAVs?

Why Specialize into Scout suits?

Why use Assaults?

Why use other weapons other than the TAR?

Why drive a HAV?

Why fly a DS?

When you start having bad answers for questions like these you start getting a very bad sense the game is misbalanced to some portion that they need attention.

I am no balance expert, but I know when one side of the sea saw is defiantly off and being not by the numbers person I typically suggest ideas that are typically non-traditional number altercations because of it.


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Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1276	Posted - 2013.05.12 21:00:00 - [1] - Quote To paraphrase Iron Wolf, maybe the assault players should just learn to assault better.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1352	Posted - 2013.05.17 20:26:00 - [2] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nova Knife wrote: Honestly, IWS needs to never pipe up on matters of balance, he doesn't have the right mindset for it :P The logistics suits ARE a problem. They are not the -only- problem though. But so is everything else. All of the suits have been disrupted heavily by uprising, and there is no longer any reasonable baseline between them. Nerfing logi suits is necessary, but it's not the end-all of making things balanced. Every suit and weapon in the game needs tweaking (some severe, others minor) to restore the baseline of balance. That said, making everything equal is not balance... it is boring. Individual flair is important, so long as a proper level of power is maintained throughout the list. Power requires drawbacks, and drawbacks require advantages. This simple dynamic does not really exist in an acceptable way for most things in the game right now, and nothing really relates nicely with each other. To repeat my gimmick phrase : There is no baseline for balance right now. The baseline is bad, and there is not a single item (or group thereof) where you can simply say "nerf this and everything will be fine" Mindset is debatable, I come from a RTS modding background not RPGFPS one. I also been designing turned based games on paper for a while and playing them among friends. FPS games are vastly different because changing a mechanic or simplest of numbers can screw everything way off from player experience because trying to balance for skill is nary impossible task of remaining fair. High skill weapons are typically frustrating as are high skill methods and tactics yet pro's whom pull them off can find it rewarding while noobs will throw the weapon or tactic down in frustration because they're incapable of being anywhere close to matching said performance. On the flipside making a weapon noob friendly can be abused by the 'semi-pros' gankers to pad their numbers while true pros would continue to resort to best skill output means. Overall FPS games are much more difficult because it becomes a fight between numbers and feelings. So I have to resort to asking this pointed question: "Why should the logistics class remain the superior slaying class?" Simply buffing other classes is not going to cause people to move out of it to get the other 'buffed' suits. Chomosome was honestly more balanced but in the long run, scouts, logis, and heavies where trivialized in existence, "why would you need anyone else when a squad of 4 assaults did everything?" Why use Scout LAVs? Why Specialize into Scout suits? Why use Assaults? Why use other weapons other than the TAR? Why drive a HAV? Why fly a DS? When you start having bad answers for questions like these you start getting a very bad sense the game is misbalanced to some portion that they need attention. I am no balance expert, but I know when one side of the sea saw is defiantly off and being not by the numbers person I typically suggest ideas that are typically non-traditional number altercations because of it. This got buried and lost when it's really the most important point. The game as it stands only needs one role, that of slayer. Yes, he needs a little support in the way of healing and ammo resupply, but between a squad of six slayers you can take care of that need quite handily. Why put all your support eggs in one Logi basket when you can spread them around? Take six slayers and you get the greatest DPS possible, and DPS is the ONLY important ability in Ambush or the pseudo Ambush that we call Skimish. The way to win is to kill. There is no other tactic as effective in this simple flat game play. That is why the Assault is king. You don't need anything else to dominate. You don't need dedicated pilots when the DS isn't needed to win games. You don't need scouts when you don't need to know anything other than how to kill the guy right in front of you. You don't need any weapon other than the highest DPS one. You don't need strategy or tactics more complicated than "Shoot first with the highest DPS" to win. The reason we can't balance classes is that only one is needed. CCP must deepen game play and introduce complexity that requires multiple roles working together to win. Until that happens all the rest of this debate is moot.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1352	Posted - 2013.05.17 21:44:00 - [3] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ^And this is why I wanted assaults to have no equipment slots earlier in the overall debate but I was somehow convinced otherwise based on access of gear and sp investments. Further compounding the above statement is to why the original idea that sparked most of this debate with my involvement came into existence. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75214 You have the initial idea that everyone is missing, but you are going about the solution all wrong. Don't try to balance things by removing elements. Don't reduce DUST, add to it! We aren't even out of beta yet (yes, we are released, but it's still beta), and everyone is focused on [i]removing things and flattening gameplay even further[\i]. Yes, you can make the Assault player need the logi by removing his equipment slot. But that's a nerf and guaranteed to make the Assault player scream. It does nothing to make scouts viable. It doesn't make piloting viable. The game needs RTS. I was drawn to DUST based on the grand ideas of different units being coordinated to accomplish various objectives in order to win the battle. The battle commander needs to make decisions about where to send his scouts, where and how much artillery he needs, how to obtain spotting information, how to use his air wing to remove a particular threat. You can't succeed if you balance roles on ambush. We need challenges that require deeper tactics than "kill" if we are ever going to need more roles than slayer. Everyone is focused on forcing roles based on equipment, but that is bassackwards. Roles must be defined by challenges to be overcome. Define and add those challenges and you won't have a problem as people would naturally fit their suits to the role.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1352	Posted - 2013.05.17 21:59:00 - [4] - Quote Why are people turning "Logi Suits" into Slayers? Because that's the only role worth playing. That's the only challenge in the game. Yes folks still run other roles, but that's not because of the game challenges, it's in spite of them. People can afford to play around with non-effective fittings because winning doesn't matter. Take a look at PC battles and you will find what does. Over time successful teams will show you what fittings and roles are needed to win, and it's going to be very narrow..
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1357	Posted - 2013.05.18 00:14:00 - [5] - Quote OK, scouts are sneaky. But why choose stealth? What mission in be game favors stealth over raw DPS? Yes, being stealthy helps you slay, but it takes a lot more time and energy to set up your kills. A team of Assault Sayers will quickly out perform a team of Scout Slayers. Yes you can cap undefended objectives, but anyone can walk up to an objective in instant battles and take it. Try that in PC nd you will find yourself dead at the hand of Assault Slayers who will stop your hack at their leisure. Yes it's a fun play style favored by some and yes you can get away with it in instant battles because having fun trumps winning. But how many scouts do you find on winning teams in PC where each player must be maximally efficient? There has to be some challenge introduced that actually favors stealth over brawn. Artillery spotter may be one, and stealing or breaking some bit of equipment might be another. It's the game modes that drive the roles, not the other way around. Change the Logi enough to make him a poor sayer and all you do is remove him from PC where slaying is paramount, unless that is you completely nerf the Assault's biliary to carry any equipment at all.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1357	Posted - 2013.05.18 02:48:00 - [6] - Quote That's a wonderful detailed comparison of all the other classes compared to the Assault, and a very telling one. The unstated assumption is that the comparison is made by each role's ability to kill. You are measuring each role by the yardstick designed for the Assault player. The leaderboards and the end of match screen make the same assumption. KDR is king and KDR is the measure of the Assault role so that's what everyone is measured by. Nowhere do you use a yardstick designed for any other character. Like "The Scout make a far better thief than the Assault". Why? Because there is no other measure needed in the game modes we have. There is no task for which stealth is a better answer than just walking in and shooting the other guy in the face. As long as shooting the other guy in the face is the most important task in the game that is all you will get. Give people a great Logi capable suit and they will turn it into an Assault suit. Why? Because that is what you are incentivizing. People will go to great lengths to turn any class or role into a Slayer class because that is the only thing that is needed. If you constrain a fitting enough that it can't be used to slay it will be abandoned in PC which is the only place where winning counts.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1357	Posted - 2013.05.18 02:54:00 - [7] - Quote Each class needs a battlefield challenge. The complaints about the Logi becoming the Assault players pack mule and a long term bore is very telling. Everyone needs a challenge to keep them engaged long term. Even if the Logi role pays out in WP, SP, and ISK it will eventually die if it isn't challenging enough to be satisfying.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1357	Posted - 2013.05.18 03:49:00 - [8] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Capture the flag? I'm not sure if you are serious or trolling, but yes, Perhaps some form of that mechanism. Maybe capturing a com link and hacking it would give you great intel on the other side. There are so many possibilities for non slaying challenges to contribute to winning a battle. Even CoD had Sabotage (get the suitcase bomb to one of two objectives). What sort of diversity would EVE have if the only challenge was PvP? No mining, no manufacturing, not even covert ops, no eWar, just straight up DPS? Pretty dull huh?
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1357	Posted - 2013.05.18 04:19:00 - [9] - Quote What purpose does CCP envision for Scouts for example? Why are they in the game? Just because CCP thought having it was cool, or did they have anything specific in mind? From where I sit the Scout class is a solution to a challenge that doesn't exist in DUST at the moment, just as the dropship is a really cool solution to a whole host of problems that don't exist. Players fall in love with the possibilities, but run smack into the brick wall of reality when they realize the game doesn't need them.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1357	Posted - 2013.05.18 04:34:00 - [10] - Quote Exactly. CCP wants players to come up with creative ways of using the assets they give us to solve problems. That's the core value of New Eden, isn't' it? Well DUST players are doing just that! The thing is the only "problem" we have is how to kill the other guy. So we have people using LAV's to Murder Taxi and dropships belly flopping onto mercs because that is the most effective way to use that asset to solve the only problem in the game. Transport isn't a problem, you can walk anywhere. So what is the LAV really good for? Killing. Then people get all bent out of shape and complain that this is a misuse of that particular asset. Well, it's the only thing that it's good for, so why not?

Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1365	Posted - 2013.05.18 05:53:00 - [11] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I think we need more orbital drop structures outside of supply and attack. Maybe 'radar' towers that sweep the area. Or Gate controls or something that makes it easier to flank and disadvantage the enemy forces. Maybe a reactor control, bring down containment and make an area entirely no man's land forcing opponents to go elsewhere. maybe send a logi or heavy in to undo that damage. Repair doors. fix broken oms, bring down towers or bring them online. That's what I'm talking about! Things for the Logi to do other than schlep ammo around. It would be best if fixing things required actual player skill too. Don't make it automatic because that would be just as fun as an Assault player not having to aim. Make the role something a player could be proud of for doing well. Flying a dropship requires actual player skill, and that is what keeps us flying even in the face of overwhelming adversity. it's the personal satisfaction of being really good at something. Give that to all the classes. Challenge is what makes a game fun. Give it to everyone.