DUST Search - Why does the entire Logistics class have to be nerfed?

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

Skihids wrote:

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

I think we need more orbital drop structures outside of supply and attack. Maybe 'radar' towers that sweep the area. Or Gate controls or something that makes it easier to flank and disadvantage the enemy forces. Maybe a reactor control, bring down containment and make an area entirely no man's land forcing opponents to go elsewhere. maybe send a logi or heavy in to undo that damage.

Repair doors. fix broken oms, bring down towers or bring them online.

That's what I'm talking about!

Things for the Logi to do other than schlep ammo around. It would be best if fixing things required actual player skill too. Don't make it automatic because that would be just as fun as an Assault player not having to aim. Make the role something a player could be proud of for doing well.

Flying a dropship requires actual player skill, and that is what keeps us flying even in the face of overwhelming adversity. it's the personal satisfaction of being really good at something. Give that to all the classes.

Challenge is what makes a game fun. Give it to everyone.

I think I'll challenge CCP Logic loop on some of these ideas, create a 'secondary objective' layer. Get the ball rolling on thinking about these.

I asked about things like destroy-able/hack-able doors and tank traps earlier but things like this further increases the layer more.


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Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 954	Posted - 2013.05.13 15:10:00 - [1] - Quote LittleCuteBunny wrote: A support class should provide support fire and aid players in the battlefield? maybe? Each logistics suit is superior to its counter part in assault It's primarily the Caldari line that's facing a disparity and that's in the racial buffs, those aside here's the breakdown. Caldari Assault More Shields More Armor More Shield Recharge More Movement Speed More Sprint Speed Longer Sprint Duration More Stamina Higher Stamina Recovery Rate Higher Scan Precision Posses a Sidearm Logi More CPU/PG 1 More high and low Amarr Assault More Shields More Shield Recharge More Movement Speed More Sprint Speed Longer Sprint Duration More Stamina Higher Stamina Recovery Rate Higher Scan Precision Logi More CPU/PG Minmatar Assault More Shields Armor Repair Rate (suit native buff, does not require mods) More Movement Speed More Sprint Speed Longer Sprint Duration More Stamina Higher Stamina Recovery Rate Higher Scan Precision Posses a Sidearm 1 more High Power slot Logi More CPU/PG More Armor More Shield Recharge 2 more Low Power slots Gallente Assault More Shields More Armor More Shield Recharge More Movement Speed More Sprint Speed Longer Sprint Duration More Stamina Higher Stamina Recovery Rate Higher Scan Precision Posses a Sidearm Logi More CPU/PG 1 More Low Power slot Note: Since the concerns raised are about the Logi frame being more effective for an Assault build than the Assault frame I have omitted the Equip slots as none of the fits I'm aware of which push the Logi into a surpassing combat role include the ability to fit more than one Equip slot anyway. So your conclusion is that an additional 1-2 slots and some more CPU/PG at the cost of base shields, base armor, shield recharge rate, base movement speed, base sprint speed, base sprint duration, stamina, stamina recovery, scan precision and a sidearm (Amarr aside, their internal race contrast is different) equates to a straight up better combat fit? Please break it down for me in detail how is this the case? Also bear in mind that a Logi fit with all slots filled by the same mods as it's Assault counterpart will be a more expensive fit (due to fitting additional total mods) so even a theoretical Logi suit with the same stats as an equivalent Assault suit will cost more ISK to field (again disregarding any more than 1 Equp slot on the assumption that this Logi isn't being fit for support or engineering). Cheers, Cross EDIT: Cosgar wrote: William HBonney wrote: LittleCuteBunny wrote: A support class should provide support fire and aid players in the battlefield? maybe? Each logistics suit is superior to its counter part in assault This is why assault suits need a buff...we don't need to nerf logistics, changing the racial bonuses to something less ******** would be nice. Logistics suits have better cpu /pg and more slots with better armor Rep and sheild regan and less delay....how is it that the assault suit has less survivability? Sidearms don't mean jack in the current blob warfare. Sidearms are only needed for av users. Logis need more survivability because they can't repair themselves. They need tank because they stand out as easy targets. Assaults don't need survivability, they need a buff in their primary role: slaying. As far as the sidearm bonus goes, the Minmatar rifle might be a SMG on steroids. It looks like CCP did a lot of groundwork for future additions with Uprising. ^This Further the assumption that more buffer tank = More survivability is oversimplified. Ignoring the effects scanning, speed, regen, and outgoing dps having on survivability is short sighted. If total raw HP totals (including fits) actually equated to the best combat fit everyone who wanted to excel as a 'slayer' would be running Heavy and all the top spots on the kills board would be held by Heavies. Defense is not equal to offense Assaults are slayers, their role calls for them to excel at gank not tank (which to reiterate actually does increase their overall survivability).
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 964	Posted - 2013.05.13 20:48:00 - [2] - Quote Terarrim wrote: Fixed the above Amarr Logi's have less pg than the assault variant not more. You are correct! Bad type-o is bad. Thanks for catching that I've edited my post to show the correct listing. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 986	Posted - 2013.05.18 01:54:00 - [3] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Light/Scout: Small, sneaky, fast, good at spotting other sneaky people. Heavy/Sentinel: Large, slow, powerful, good at controlling and securing a point, but vulnerable at range and against fast targets. Logi: Support role, limited weapons and direct combat capabilities, but with a variety of equipment to balance it out. Medium/Assault: Jack of all trades role, able to adapt to a variety of situations. That sounds about right, doesn't it? That's what you'd logically expect if you want a balanced game. Unfortunately, only Scouts and Sentinels work as intended right now. What should be happening is that Logis keep their equipment, get a buff to speed and base HP, but lose their slots. Medium Frame suits should all have basically the same baseline mobility and survivability for each race, but the Assault gets more adaptable fittings with a large slot complement, while the Logi is better at the support role by not being gimped on speed. You can keep up with most Assaults, or buff to catch up where needed, patch things up, provide ammo, whatever, then move on. Scouts will still outpace you, Assaults will usually out-gun and out-tank you, but you'll be able to hold your own while also making the suits around you better. I'd have to counterpoint this. Light/Scout: Small, sneaky, fast, good at spotting other sneaky people. Heavy/Sentinel: Large, slow, powerful, good at controlling and securing a point, but vulnerable at range and against fast targets. Logi: Support role, limited weapons and direct combat capabilities, but with a variety of equipment to balance it out. Medium/Assault: Jack of all trades role, able to adapt to a variety of situations. Using the above in essence changes the game of "rock, scissors, paper" to "rock, paper, shotgun". What's the counter to the Heavy? Scout or Assault. What's the counter to the Scout? Heavy or Assault. What's the counter to the Logi? Heavy, Scout, or Assault. What's the counter to the Assault? ....? In a game with changing contexts and many variables adaptability is almost always going to be the best choice. One on one a specialized role can eclipse that generalist but put 1 Heavy, 1 Scout, and 1 Logi against 3 Assaults (assuming equal player skill for all Mercs) and the Assaults win every time. They have the ability to chose different contexts for the fight which disadvantage 1 or more of the opposing group thus giving them an advantage. Regarding the Logi I'm still unconvinced that the suits are a problem. Comparing the stats to the Assault a Logi can get roughly the same stats if they invest more SP/ISK to build the fit. Otherwise they're gaining more in a single area while falling short in the all the others. Racial skill buffs do need some work but that's not slots or suits. Also the TAR is currently broken. Even with the "new shiny" effect of the recent weapons release the TAR is still the most used weapon on the field in games I play (game times played for this assessment include, Ambush, OMS, Skirmish , Domination, FW, and PC). When a single anything is the most common that's often a good indicator that it's out preforming it's balanced state. When a single sub-type of a given thing is the most common that's clearly an issue. Beyond that Damage mods are a problem, their stacking penalty is either not working or not severe enough. Stack those on top of a TAR in a Cal Logi with it's current racial and yeah you get something that's out of line but making "use of equipment" equal to "literally cannot win a fight to save your life" is a poor balance choice indeed. Remove the Logi's current ability to customize their suit for specialized roles and what's left, a pack mule? Leaving aside how many players would actually play that role for the long term, there's still the question of what value that brings to the field. Ammo ~ Anyone can run a hive, and all ammo is refreshed upon death. Revives ~ Make not combat capable (specifically/especially regarding Tank) and the only reliable revives are when an area is fully secure. Aside from when your team is decimating the opposing force when does that really happen in any dust game mode? Spawns ~ First spawn with a militia scout using a militia uplink. In full squads this costs you ~6 clones to ear you ~60 spawns, gets there faster and is less likely to be seen. There are also CRUs and Objectives in most game modes. Scanning ~ Scouts are harder to see and faster to relocate. Assaults are faster to relocate and have better on board scanning for in between bursts/the directions not scanned. RE's ~ Any class with an Equp slot can use these and one which can defend itself is more valuable than one which has to hide during firefights (or even most fire fights). AV "mines ~ Same as RE's continued with "repairs" in part two.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 986	Posted - 2013.05.18 02:03:00 - [4] - Quote Part Two Repairs ~ As established anyone can run a hive which means they can also run self repairs while still participating in the fire fight. Focused on the repair tool specifically, if you remove combat ability the repair tools outgoing reps have to counter the loss in outgoing dps. If this active tank doesn't at least equal the lost dps tank then it's a guaranteed net loss to the squad. Ignoring the limitations of it's use (such as range etc) the highest value repair tool provides 105 HP/s. The TAR outputs ~1032.9 dps without skills or damage mods included, and ignoring head shots. Rendering max active tank a Logi can provide to be ~1/10 of the incoming base dps of the current most commonly used weapon. Adding a Proto repair hive only gives another 40 HP/s. Meaning it would take just over 7 Logi running both proto repair tools and repair hives for one team mate to offset the dps of a single opposing TAR user. If that hostile has a single friend or is clever enough to A)throw a nade at the hives or B) kill one of the Logi, then the team is still running at a net loss. Gimping the Logi into only being a "I run equipment" based class renders them into obsolescence unless you're also removing all equipment slots from other classes and suits (including earlier progression medium and light frames) and doing that would frankly be bad balance all the way around as it's much to ridged. Anything that's advantage is "the most adaptable" shouldn't be the best in any area aside from adaptability. That goes for ARs and it goes for Assaults within the example provided. A Logi suit right now may arguably be considered the most adaptable but is limited by having to specialize fits for a single benefit and/or (depending on build) having to pay more ISK/SP to do the same things as other non-Logi fits. Context is important, Risk v Reward and that baseline awareness seems to be frequently lacking in these role assessments. If something costs more ISK, takes more SP and runs slightly better in one aspect then it's not broken. If something costs the same ISK, the same SP and runs noticeably better (such as the TAR currently) then it needs to be looked into. ~Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 986	Posted - 2013.05.18 04:22:00 - [5] - Quote Skihids wrote: That's a wonderful detailed comparison of all the other classes compared to the Assault, and a very telling one. The unstated assumption is that the comparison is made by each role's ability to kill. You are measuring each role by the yardstick designed for the Assault player. The leaderboards and the end of match screen make the same assumption. KDR is king and KDR is the measure of the Assault role so that's what everyone is measured by. Nowhere do you use a yardstick designed for any other character. Like "The Scout make a far better thief than the Assault". Why? Because there is no other measure needed in the game modes we have. Agreed, thus far within the scope of Dust there are no mechanics or assets which cannot be boiled down to/counter effectively by "more gank". As long as the baseline of the game remains 'the pointy end goes into the other man' then all roles must be fully combat capable. Whether CCP wishes to divide/specialize within the game so that killing isn't the base value is up to them (for example mining is more or less the base value in EVE). Until/unless killing isn't the base value in D514 all classes will need to remain kill capable or they become essentially non-viable at least for higher level play. (Granulated WP awards could elevate this greatly but in part that is due to earning OBs which is once again a baseline derived from kills). 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 987	Posted - 2013.05.18 06:20:00 - [6] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Skihids wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I think we need more orbital drop structures outside of supply and attack. Maybe 'radar' towers that sweep the area. Or Gate controls or something that makes it easier to flank and disadvantage the enemy forces. Maybe a reactor control, bring down containment and make an area entirely no man's land forcing opponents to go elsewhere. maybe send a logi or heavy in to undo that damage. Repair doors. fix broken oms, bring down towers or bring them online. That's what I'm talking about! Things for the Logi to do other than schlep ammo around. It would be best if fixing things required actual player skill too. Don't make it automatic because that would be just as fun as an Assault player not having to aim. Make the role something a player could be proud of for doing well. Flying a dropship requires actual player skill, and that is what keeps us flying even in the face of overwhelming adversity. it's the personal satisfaction of being really good at something. Give that to all the classes. Challenge is what makes a game fun. Give it to everyone. I think I'll challenge CCP Logic loop on some of these ideas, create a 'secondary objective' layer. Get the ball rolling on thinking about these. I asked about things like destroy-able/hack-able doors and tank traps earlier but things like this further increases the layer more. \o/ \o/ Most excellent.