This is a common misconception.

In FF both Black mage and Red mage can learn some healing spells, are they the support characters in that game? No, that would be White Mage. Can they be used for support? Yes.

In Legend Of Dragoon, Lavits and Albert can use a move that increases the teams defense, and Rose can learn a weak healing move. Are any of them support characters? No. Can they support the team? Yes.

Having some properties of a support character does not make the character a support character. Logis are not a support role just because they can carry more equipment than assault players.

You want to see a support class?
- Take the basic medium suits
- keep all stats, that includes speed and HP
- give it the slot layout of our current logi suits, that includes equipment
- Take their light weapon away and leave them with just a side arm, Amarr gets two side arms.

Currently every suit in the game is designed with killing as their primary role, logis are far too versatile to be mere babysitters.

facepalm.

Really are we trying to put the suits into boxed in roles. While we are at it why not weapon restrictions. After all i hear heavies should only carry heavy weapons. Perhaps we should also prevent logis from using any dmg mods since they shouldnt be trying to kill at all. OH oh i know lets also make it so scouts can only use snipers and assaults can only use rifles and pistols while we are at it.

Thats how killzone, battlefield, socom, rainbox 6 and every other squad/class based shooter does it.

H'mm I could have sworn they did... but they do still learn other support spells, such as haste or temper. I think we can all agree that while he can support the team, the Balck Mage's role is usually not that of support role.

Logi's if anything are red mages, and they should not ever be made mere support characters.

Superior guns, where? You mean our damage mods? The same ones with stacking penalties? Nothing a 2% damage bonus per level for assault suits wouldn't fix.

And false, Shana and Meru (the medics) have the single highest damage potential in The Legend of Dragoon.

... If that's code for "sidearms" then tell me now so I can just be a Proto Amarr Basic next respec.

I use the Minmatar logi and the bottom line is if they nerf the entire logistics class just because the Caldari (which the scrambler rifle was designed for) doesn't have a sustainable effective counter yet and the assault bonuses pale in comparison, I quit. Nerfing an entire class before an actual meta game can take place and adjusting the other suits is a sign of laziness as a developer and my time and money would be better spent somewhere else.

The issue is that in translating this to DUST, with our limited selection of sidearms, what you end up proposing is replacing their broadswords with butter knives.

Honestly, IWS needs to never pipe up on matters of balance, he doesn't have the right mindset for it :P


The logistics suits ARE a problem. They are not the -only- problem though.

But so is everything else. All of the suits have been disrupted heavily by uprising, and there is no longer any reasonable baseline between them.


Nerfing logi suits is necessary, but it's not the end-all of making things balanced. Every suit and weapon in the game needs tweaking (some severe, others minor) to restore the baseline of balance. That said, making everything equal is not balance... it is boring. Individual flair is important, so long as a proper level of power is maintained throughout the list. Power requires drawbacks, and drawbacks require advantages. This simple dynamic does not really exist in an acceptable way for most things in the game right now, and nothing really relates nicely with each other. To repeat my gimmick phrase : There is no baseline for balance right now.


The baseline is bad, and there is not a single item (or group thereof) where you can simply say "nerf this and everything will be fine"

Armor plates without penalty? In what world are you living? They give you more HP then shield extenders and still offer you other things in the high slot. You cant have mobility and craploads of HP on armor. Shields are designed to be quick but less HP then armor. You have to think about it that in 1vs1 encounters armor is a better advantage cause you can take more bullets at a time. On the other hand shields are popular due to their fast recharge time. Most experienced players would pick armor+damage mods over shield without damage mods.

IWS shows how much of a unready scrub he is by displaying his ignorance. Just another butthurt player who wants an entire class nerfed because one suit is broken.

Never considered just tweaking the bonuses per level did you?

You mean, cause it would no longer be OP (ie fixed). Theres no need to remove our light weapons. Just give logis support bonuses, and give assaults tank bonuses (2% per level instead of 5%). Its like CCP doesnt play their own game. Do you play this game?

This is why this CPM is full of fail, 90% cheerleading, 9% BS, 1% leading.

Stop trying to push the sidearm restriction issue IWS. TheMark0f22, the person who made the video that's got all of us talking in the first place has already said he can do the same thing with SMGs:

Burning all the logis at the stake won't help and nerfing the CaLogi isn't going to help in the big picture of things. All the other suits need their racial bonuses adjusted so they can be attractive compared to the logi. Logistics finally got to a good place compared to chrome and nerfing them again will be counterproductive to the lifespan of this game. Buff the other suits, (and the HMG) wait for the scrambler rifle shows up, and leave logis alone.

Tell me again how goign to sidearms only fixes the caldari logis SUPER TANK? (heres a hint, it doenst). That logi is OP due ot tanking ability, not its ability to carry a light weapon. Cause > Cure. Its not that hard. Really.

Thats what kept it balanced in chromosome, in my opinion.

Let's spell it out again for you: The entire logistics class, except for the Caldari Logistics is fine. The problem is the Caldari suit doesn't have a support related bonus compared to the others. Even the Amarr, which is supposed to be a pseudo Assault/Logi does it right because the Amarr assult still has advantages over it.

I'm vocal, and being black makes me a minority. Will you start listening to me?

Who in all honesty complained about the logis being squishy?(in last build)

I don't remember all that many threads on it.... Why did CCP listen to them?

Since I use the SMG as my primary weapon even when running an Assault suit I donGÇÖt think this debate will effect me. That being said, I donGÇÖt really get where the Anti-logi side is coming from.

I'm growing tired of this debate ... CCP will do what they will do.

All I'll say is this ... Iron Wolf, you are supposed to be a representative of the community ... that means you have no opinions or ideas ... you collate the communities opinions and ideas and relay them to CCP.

STOP DEBATING AND START WORKING FOR THE COMMUNITY.

You did the same in reply to the evemail I sent you, debated my ideas and opinions rather than adding them to a list for submission to devs.

I'm losing faith in your position on the council.

Thank you, that's about what I wanted to hear ... maybe the CPM tag on your avatar should come with a sig line saying something like " My opinions are just that, and will be balanced with yours for CCPs consideration" ... CPM members debating / arguing issues just looks like that is what you are promoting to CCP irrespective of the counter argument.

My point about the skills was a valid one ... I made a thread about it that didn't last, but it certainly seems like they goofed and applied the multipliers the wrong way round in that the vehicle skill is cheaper than the dropsuit skill, but their pre-req skills are the opposite way round ... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=776995#post776995 ... either way the skills are being reworked and are probably finalised now anyway, so if they did goof it and didn't see my thread or notice it, they'll still be 'a feature' when we get the new tree.

I understand you're all bound by an NDA, I wouldn't expect you to divulge any information about work in progress, I just wanted you to ask the question to a dev if those multiplier changes were intended or had been misplaced, so that they could pass it to the right team and they could think 'yeah that's right' or 'ohh we got that wrong, fix it with the tree adjustment' ... I didn''t want an answer, just a confirmation that a dev was aware as my thread wasn't QQing enough and was in the wrong section to attract troll bumps or active debate.

Too late now anyway, hopefully they were considered in the tree revamp.

You have the initial idea that everyone is missing, but you are going about the solution all wrong.

Don't try to balance things by removing elements. Don't reduce DUST, add to it!

We aren't even out of beta yet (yes, we are released, but it's still beta), and everyone is focused on removing things and flattening gameplay even further.

Yes, you can make the Assault player need the logi by removing his equipment slot. But that's a nerf and guaranteed to make the Assault player scream. It does nothing to make scouts viable. It doesn't make piloting viable.

The game needs RTS.

I was drawn to DUST based on the grand ideas of different units being coordinated to accomplish various objectives in order to win the battle.

The battle commander needs to make decisions about where to send his scouts, where and how much artillery he needs, how to obtain spotting information, how to use his air wing to remove a particular threat.

You can't succeed if you balance roles on ambush. We need challenges that require deeper tactics than "kill" if we are ever going to need more roles than slayer.

Everyone is focused on forcing roles based on equipment, but that is bassackwards. Roles must be defined by challenges to be overcome. Define and add those challenges and you won't have a problem as people would naturally fit their suits to the role.

That's what I'm talking about!

Things for the Logi to do other than schlep ammo around. It would be best if fixing things required actual player skill too. Don't make it automatic because that would be just as fun as an Assault player not having to aim. Make the role something a player could be proud of for doing well.

Flying a dropship requires actual player skill, and that is what keeps us flying even in the face of overwhelming adversity. it's the personal satisfaction of being really good at something. Give that to all the classes.

Challenge is what makes a game fun. Give it to everyone.