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137H4RGIC SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 31	Posted - 2013.05.11 05:04:00 - [121] - Quote I wonder what Kill'em quick's policy on PR is... Mass Driver is doing KEQ wonders :)
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 177	Posted - 2013.05.11 05:22:00 - [122] - Quote MASS DR1V3R wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: MASS DR1V3R wrote: Smoky The Bear wrote: MASS DR1V3R wrote: This thread is a joke. I run the MD at a proficiency of only lvl 1 and I'm regularly going 21/3, 14/0, 16/3, etc. with the Freedom. I think the worst game I've had with the Freedom was 12/6 with like 18 assists. If you aren't doing well with it, then your aim is off. I've even pissed off my own corp mates using it during q-synced matches. I reply with "you have nothing to complain about anymore since the blast radius got nerfed. You actually have to have SKILL to use it now." And when PC hits and friendly fire is on, everyone will be rejoicing the fact that the blast radius got nerfed. It will still be a viable weapon in CQC even with corp mates around. If it had the Chromosome blast radius, all MD users would be holding their shots a LOT more so or risk getting yelled at by their own team. You sir.. are a LIAR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RucZsGn0W_o Luckily I had a corp mate recording some matches last night. Here you go. The video isn't of me, but I'm in the match. You can go to the end if you want to just look at end of match screen. I went 11/0 using the Freedom as my primary, and I was pinned down by 2 tanks through part of the match. He recorded another match where I went 12/9 using the standard mass driver as my primary. Maybe you just aren't as good as you thought you were. Funny how the video got pulled. I wonder why. Dude, you're in my corp. I know there's like 700 of us but wtf. If you had read on the keq forums, I asked cody already why he pulled it. I haven't had a chance to speak to him yet though. So, yes. And I am sure we ll have a lot of good games together. But what you are posting here is a different matter. All I see is ppl run around spam Duvole TAR. I try to use breach MD and get tish for results and I used to do good with the weapon. And you are telling eveyone that MD is the same or even better than before. I don't know - maybe you figured out a way to use it in the new build. Obviously its mechanics have changed, so it's possible. But when you say that all of the ppl in this thread have no skill with the weapon and MD actually shines and is borderline OP and it's ppl's lack of skill that's to blame - you are actually talking to ppl who used MD as their primary weapon for a good while, so that's insulting to a lot of us. As support for your argument you are giving a link that's not working. So it's just not constructive at all.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 947	Posted - 2013.05.11 05:26:00 - [123] - Quote @Cosgar, first I want to apologies if my prior response was a bit on the surly side I let some unrelated stuff influence the tone of my post. That was a slip on my part and I own that, thank you for being reasonable in your reply. In answer to your question I posted that when I did because it seemed the thread was starting to get a bit off track, less conversation about the MD it's stats, uses and status. More ad hominem and hyperbolic exchanges. I was hoping to bring the focus back on point because I think the topic is important both in the sense that I enjoy the unique play niche of the MD and in drawing CCPs attention to the larger concept of role (as well as stat) based balance considerations. As you've rightly pointed out a weapon being effective and tactically valuable is not always about it's status as a piece of 'slayer' gear. Cheers, Cross
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 177	Posted - 2013.05.11 05:27:00 - [124] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I'll reiterate this basic point again as I have done in various threads regarding all sorts of weapons and game mechanics. Balance needs to be derived from the average not the outliers. What this means in a general context is that if you are in the top 20% then you are not an appropriate case for balance assessments. Nefing things so the they "take skill" (i.e. are significantly more difficult to use) for those with the top gun game is bad game design. It's net effect is to take those few who are already excelling and give them an even greater advantage. This creates more pub stomps, red lines, and blow outs. Meaning that ultimately this creates a more boring play experience and diminishes the over all player population. Not all weapons function the same, nor should they. Weapons, like any of the other gear, or indeed many of the skills in Dust ideally should fill a role and be evaluated with regards to the success in that role. At bear minimum evaluations need to be more complex than is "X weapon good/bad" and they certainly need more context then anecdotal debates between various players about their KDR in a smattering of matches (matches which often aren't even put in any sort of context). Balance is about game health, not personal preference, a specific play style or a singular feature/role. Consider this a request to for all concerned to provide detailed, sober feedback within explicit context, and hopefully to do so with a focus on the macro level of the game rather than simply on their own personal reactions. 0.02 ISK Cross This blanket statement just points out that all you did was read the OP and maybe just skimmed the rest of the fist page. The problem with the mass driver isn't because it's not this super OP weapon that got nerfed. The problem is the tactical aspects and utility of the weapon has been traded for the ability to slay. Please go further in the topic and read some of the more recent posts. We've been trying to find out the direction the Devs took the MD and why we disagree with it. My 0.4 ISK Cosgar What 'ability to slay' stats got worse not better. It's not like direct damage was buffed and AoE got nerfed. MD took only nerf and no buff in any aspect. Please, clarify what you mean when you say that now it has turned from support to slayer weapon. All I see is that the 'slaying' is the same or worse (read, direct damage) and support got severely nerfed (read, AOE/Splash). Or maybe I did not understand what you meant.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 650	Posted - 2013.05.11 05:45:00 - [125] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I'll reiterate this basic point again as I have done in various threads regarding all sorts of weapons and game mechanics. Balance needs to be derived from the average not the outliers. What this means in a general context is that if you are in the top 20% then you are not an appropriate case for balance assessments. Nefing things so the they "take skill" (i.e. are significantly more difficult to use) for those with the top gun game is bad game design. It's net effect is to take those few who are already excelling and give them an even greater advantage. This creates more pub stomps, red lines, and blow outs. Meaning that ultimately this creates a more boring play experience and diminishes the over all player population. Not all weapons function the same, nor should they. Weapons, like any of the other gear, or indeed many of the skills in Dust ideally should fill a role and be evaluated with regards to the success in that role. At bear minimum evaluations need to be more complex than is "X weapon good/bad" and they certainly need more context then anecdotal debates between various players about their KDR in a smattering of matches (matches which often aren't even put in any sort of context). Balance is about game health, not personal preference, a specific play style or a singular feature/role. Consider this a request to for all concerned to provide detailed, sober feedback within explicit context, and hopefully to do so with a focus on the macro level of the game rather than simply on their own personal reactions. 0.02 ISK Cross This blanket statement just points out that all you did was read the OP and maybe just skimmed the rest of the fist page. The problem with the mass driver isn't because it's not this super OP weapon that got nerfed. The problem is the tactical aspects and utility of the weapon has been traded for the ability to slay. Please go further in the topic and read some of the more recent posts. We've been trying to find out the direction the Devs took the MD and why we disagree with it. My 0.4 ISK Cosgar What 'ability to slay' stats got worse not better. It's not like direct damage was buffed and AoE got nerfed. MD took only nerf and no buff in any aspect. Please, clarify what you mean when you say that now it has turned from support to slayer weapon. All I see is that the 'slaying' is the same or worse (read, direct damage) and support got severely nerfed (read, AOE/Splash). Or maybe I did not understand what you meant. puts dev hat on for a second With the new trajectory, rounds fly straighter, making it easier to land a direct hit. If it dealt the damage it did in Chrome, the MD would probably would be OP, so they nerfed it. By that same logic, since it flies straighter to its intended target, they decided to nerf the splash damage to compensate because we don't need the extra help with finding our targets anymore. So in a way, the Mass Driver is more like an RPG than a the M-32 it used to be. It's much easier to get kills, but at the cost of usefulness in its support role we all used it for. Edit: @Cross: It takes a big man to make a decision, but a better man to own up to it. No worries man, we're cool.
Smoky The Bear Intergalactic Cannibus Cartel 43	Posted - 2013.05.11 05:52:00 - [126] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I'll reiterate this basic point again as I have done in various threads regarding all sorts of weapons and game mechanics. Balance needs to be derived from the average not the outliers. What this means in a general context is that if you are in the top 20% then you are not an appropriate case for balance assessments. Nefing things so the they "take skill" (i.e. are significantly more difficult to use) for those with the top gun game is bad game design. It's net effect is to take those few who are already excelling and give them an even greater advantage. This creates more pub stomps, red lines, and blow outs. Meaning that ultimately this creates a more boring play experience and diminishes the over all player population. Not all weapons function the same, nor should they. Weapons, like any of the other gear, or indeed many of the skills in Dust ideally should fill a role and be evaluated with regards to the success in that role. At bear minimum evaluations need to be more complex than is "X weapon good/bad" and they certainly need more context then anecdotal debates between various players about their KDR in a smattering of matches (matches which often aren't even put in any sort of context). Balance is about game health, not personal preference, a specific play style or a singular feature/role. Consider this a request to for all concerned to provide detailed, sober feedback within explicit context, and hopefully to do so with a focus on the macro level of the game rather than simply on their own personal reactions. 0.02 ISK Cross This blanket statement just points out that all you did was read the OP and maybe just skimmed the rest of the fist page. The problem with the mass driver isn't because it's not this super OP weapon that got nerfed. The problem is the tactical aspects and utility of the weapon has been traded for the ability to slay. Please go further in the topic and read some of the more recent posts. We've been trying to find out the direction the Devs took the MD and why we disagree with it. My 0.4 ISK Cosgar What 'ability to slay' stats got worse not better. It's not like direct damage was buffed and AoE got nerfed. MD took only nerf and no buff in any aspect. Please, clarify what you mean when you say that now it has turned from support to slayer weapon. All I see is that the 'slaying' is the same or worse (read, direct damage) and support got severely nerfed (read, AOE/Splash). Or maybe I did not understand what you meant. puts dev hat on for a second With the new trajectory, rounds fly straighter, making it easier to land a direct hit. If it dealt the damage it did in Chrome, the MD would probably would be OP, so they nerfed it. By that same logic, since it flies straighter to its intended target, they decided to nerf the splash damage to compensate because we don't need the extra help with finding our targets anymore. So in a way, the Mass Driver is more like an RPG than a the M-32 it used to be. It's much easier to get kills, but at the cost of usefulness in its support role we all used it for. Edit: @Cross: It takes a big man to make a decision, but a better man to own up to it. No worries man, we're cool. Wait what? Rounds flying straighter does not make it easier to get kills.. quite the opposite on flat ground with no dropoff its hard as hell to hit their feet.. (picture yourself in an open flat field)..and the range nerf makes that a very low % shot... as well as when hitting the wall beside them.. no blast radius means the wall eats it.. and enemy walks away.. And as another poster just pointed out AGAIN.. how does an overall across the board nerf in any way change the role? or anything else that sounds nice? it is what it is..
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 650	Posted - 2013.05.11 06:03:00 - [127] - Quote Smoky The Bear wrote: Cosgar wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I'll reiterate this basic point again as I have done in various threads regarding all sorts of weapons and game mechanics. Balance needs to be derived from the average not the outliers. What this means in a general context is that if you are in the top 20% then you are not an appropriate case for balance assessments. Nefing things so the they "take skill" (i.e. are significantly more difficult to use) for those with the top gun game is bad game design. It's net effect is to take those few who are already excelling and give them an even greater advantage. This creates more pub stomps, red lines, and blow outs. Meaning that ultimately this creates a more boring play experience and diminishes the over all player population. Not all weapons function the same, nor should they. Weapons, like any of the other gear, or indeed many of the skills in Dust ideally should fill a role and be evaluated with regards to the success in that role. At bear minimum evaluations need to be more complex than is "X weapon good/bad" and they certainly need more context then anecdotal debates between various players about their KDR in a smattering of matches (matches which often aren't even put in any sort of context). Balance is about game health, not personal preference, a specific play style or a singular feature/role. Consider this a request to for all concerned to provide detailed, sober feedback within explicit context, and hopefully to do so with a focus on the macro level of the game rather than simply on their own personal reactions. 0.02 ISK Cross This blanket statement just points out that all you did was read the OP and maybe just skimmed the rest of the fist page. The problem with the mass driver isn't because it's not this super OP weapon that got nerfed. The problem is the tactical aspects and utility of the weapon has been traded for the ability to slay. Please go further in the topic and read some of the more recent posts. We've been trying to find out the direction the Devs took the MD and why we disagree with it. My 0.4 ISK Cosgar What 'ability to slay' stats got worse not better. It's not like direct damage was buffed and AoE got nerfed. MD took only nerf and no buff in any aspect. Please, clarify what you mean when you say that now it has turned from support to slayer weapon. All I see is that the 'slaying' is the same or worse (read, direct damage) and support got severely nerfed (read, AOE/Splash). Or maybe I did not understand what you meant. puts dev hat on for a second With the new trajectory, rounds fly straighter, making it easier to land a direct hit. If it dealt the damage it did in Chrome, the MD would probably would be OP, so they nerfed it. By that same logic, since it flies straighter to its intended target, they decided to nerf the splash damage to compensate because we don't need the extra help with finding our targets anymore. So in a way, the Mass Driver is more like an RPG than a the M-32 it used to be. It's much easier to get kills, but at the cost of usefulness in its support role we all used it for. Edit: @Cross: It takes a big man to make a decision, but a better man to own up to it. No worries man, we're cool. Wait what? Rounds flying straighter does not make it easier to get kills.. quite the opposite on flat ground with no dropoff its hard as hell to hit their feet.. (picture yourself in an open flat field)..and the range nerf makes that a very low % shot... as well as when hitting the wall beside them.. no blast radius means the wall eats it.. and enemy walks away.. And as another poster just pointed out AGAIN.. how does an overall across the board nerf in any way change the role? or anything else that sounds nice? it is what it is.. Try aiming for the chest, neck, or head depending distance instead of the feet. It's much, much easier to land those direct hits we never used to because of the arc. That's why I've been using the breach now. Speaking of the breach, it feels like the devs were trying to make the breach more viable. CCP doesn't make changes without reasons, but those reasons are what usually causes problems. Anyway, I'm finding myself getting 10, 12, and even 17 kills a round because getting direct hits are so easy. Therefore, I believe they were trying to help us, but wound up fixing something that wasn't broken in the first place. It's a shame really. Out of all the things I was looking for in uprising, it was the splash damage calculation being on a 3-D plane, which was the only issue I had with the MD in chrome.
Still blazn Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2013.05.11 06:09:00 - [128] - Quote Wait what? Rounds flying straighter does not make it easier to get kills.. quite the opposite on flat ground with no dropoff its hard as hell to hit their feet.. (picture yourself in an open flat field)..and the range nerf makes that a very low % shot... as well as when hitting the wall beside them.. no blast radius means the wall eats it.. and enemy walks away.. And as another poster just pointed out AGAIN.. how does an overall across the board nerf in any way change the role? or anything else that sounds nice? it is what it is..[/quote] Try aiming for the chest, neck, or head depending distance instead of the feet. It's much, much easier to land those direct hits we never used to because of the arc. That's why I've been using the breach now. Speaking of the breach, it feels like the devs were trying to make the breach more viable. CCP doesn't make changes without reasons, but those reasons are what usually causes problems. Anyway, I'm finding myself getting 10, 12, and even 17 kills a round because getting direct hits are so easy. Therefore, I believe they were trying to help us, but wound up fixing something that wasn't broken in the first place. It's a shame really. Out of all the things I was looking for in uprising, it was the splash damage calculation being on a 3-D plane, which was the only issue I had with the MD in chrome.[/quote] Are you absolutely positive that you are hitting people in the head and chest and their body is causing the grenade to explode? Maybe I need to go back and do some test games, but last time I checked they were still going THROUGH the enemy.. either way.. theres no way im going to be using a MD that becomes necessary to get a head shot with..
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 651	Posted - 2013.05.11 07:00:00 - [129] - Quote Still blazn wrote: Are you absolutely positive that you are hitting people in the head and chest and their body is causing the grenade to explode? Maybe I need to go back and do some test games, but last time I checked they were still going THROUGH the enemy.. either way.. theres no way im going to be using a MD that becomes necessary to get a head shot with.. Takes a while to get used to the new trajectory and the new sight, well ADS with MD in general, but it's been changed to the point that you find yourself doing it consistently. Really, it feels like using an AR that shoots grenades. Ever since they made point A easy to camp in ambush, we could really use the old trajectory right about now. Oh and I miss being near A or C in the complex and lobbing grenades through the windows to flush out people camping B. sigh Memories...
NaglfarBP Not Guilty EoN. 27	Posted - 2013.05.11 07:23:00 - [130] - Quote Smoky The Bear wrote: Even with all these discoveries, I would trade those kills for the arcing trajectory and some of the damage and radius back. We probably don't need all of the radius since the terrain glitch is fixed, but we need a little more oomph in damage to be threatening and a little more blast radius for area denial. If I cared about kills, I'd be using a TAR right now. I picked the MD for tactics and utility. THIS!!![/quote] This 1000 times this. +1

Smoky The Bear Intergalactic Cannibus Cartel 43	Posted - 2013.05.11 08:03:00 - [131] - Quote went back to see if things got better... Umm no.. off the top of my head WOW the ar's are like 2 shotting me.. ffs.. Did heavys get a buff? they seem pretty damn powerful again.. maybe im totally off here.. even saw a couple snipers back on the BF (they saw me) As far as MD goes.. I wanted to add this.. There seems to be a slight lag from trigger press to launch.. it just doesnt come out the barrel right.. sometimes looks ok.. mostly not.. so either very SLOW or Laggy.. not sure.. sometimes the grenades launches from where you were just standing if looks like... Anyways.. real drag.. I guess since we dont have the #'s like the heavys (i have a heavy btw) we dont get the same consideration?
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 651	Posted - 2013.05.11 08:10:00 - [132] - Quote Good news! Remnant is looking into the Mass Driver: CCP Remnant wrote: To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance. One, there appears to be a de-sync between client and server so that (more often than it should) the server and client think the projectile exploded in different places. They're not far off, but enough so that shots you think are spot on are off the mark enough to do only minor splash damage. And two, I'm told splash occlusion is getting blocked by a single player character more than it should, contributing to the "randomness" of the damage dealt and the sometimes smudgy feeling of the weapon. I'm hesitant to rebalance the weapon until we get these issues looked at (which is happening right now).
Smoky The Bear Intergalactic Cannibus Cartel 43	Posted - 2013.05.11 08:17:00 - [133] - Quote THANK GOD!!!!!! and lol.. side note.. Everyone in the office using it .. great minds think alike.. ILL PWN ALL YOU...
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 651	Posted - 2013.05.11 08:25:00 - [134] - Quote Smoky The Bear wrote: THANK GOD!!!!!! they looking into it.. But please I really must BEG you to re-balance it.. Give us the old ARC in trajectory,splash and 3d radius, and the range too.. The damage is the least of my concerns and lol.. side note.."half the office using it" .. great minds think alike.. OO pz give char names!! I sooo wanna PWN u... I've already compiled some suggestions from this topic in that thread. Let me know if I missed anything in my post and I'll go back to edit it.
Smoky The Bear Intergalactic Cannibus Cartel 43	Posted - 2013.05.11 08:28:00 - [135] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Smoky The Bear wrote: THANK GOD!!!!!! they looking into it.. But please I really must BEG you to re-balance it.. Give us the old ARC in trajectory,splash and 3d radius, and the range too.. The damage is the least of my concerns and lol.. side note.."half the office using it" .. great minds think alike.. OO pz give char names!! I sooo wanna PWN u... I've already compiled some suggestions from this topic in that thread. Let me know if I missed anything in my post and I'll go back to edit it. I put a list back on top of this thread.. And i can bet that I will need to add to your list ..
XxGhazbaranxX The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 8	Posted - 2013.05.11 08:55:00 - [136] - Quote Hello, Prior to uprising I had mass drivers up to five and the spec to three. Mass drivers had great effect and they had two variants. Tight blast radius high damage or great blast radius but low damage. Considering these guns are not the average point and shoot variety in which bullet goes in straight line and hits target next to immediately it was considers a good thing that it had the blast radius. Good shots with it where rewarded whit Nice chunks of HP taken away from the opponent when they used the high damage variety and poor shots could benefit from the low damage variety as a sort of support damage/ area of denial type of thing to help the team out as well as get in some war points. As it stands in uprising, I skilled my mass drivers up to 5 and spec to 2. I knew they had been nerfed before putting my skill points there but hey, I'm not the best shot and prefer the area of effect aspect even if it was halved. As it stands, the high damage models keep being that High damage tight radius but the low damage ones are too far into the tighter range than should have been made. One shot of the low damage high Explosion radius of the mass driver does 70 base splash damage. Considering it is a grenade launcher one would expect these explosions to be at least as wide as the grenades we throw. It's now game breaking in the sense that it does almost 1 tenth of what an actual grenade would do taking ten shots to get anything done with splash damage. If you also factor in damage reduction to shield, you have a weapon that does less than 1 tenth the damage to any group of people than a grenade would do. Bring back old radius, it was not bad. Lower Splash damage or direct damage if needed, as it stands it is not an area of denial weapon as much as a water balloon thrower, mind you i get kills with it, but it's not effective at it's role.
Smoky The Bear Intergalactic Cannibus Cartel 44	Posted - 2013.05.11 09:31:00 - [137] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Hello, Prior to uprising I had mass drivers up to five and the spec to three. Mass drivers had great effect and they had two variants. Tight blast radius high damage or great blast radius but low damage. Considering these guns are not the average point and shoot variety in which bullet goes in straight line and hits target next to immediately it was considers a good thing that it had the blast radius. Good shots with it where rewarded whit Nice chunks of HP taken away from the opponent when they used the high damage variety and poor shots could benefit from the low damage variety as a sort of support damage/ area of denial type of thing to help the team out as well as get in some war points. As it stands in uprising, I skilled my mass drivers up to 5 and spec to 2. I knew they had been nerfed before putting my skill points there but hey, I'm not the best shot and prefer the area of effect aspect even if it was halved. As it stands, the high damage models keep being that High damage tight radius but the low damage ones are too far into the tighter range than should have been made. One shot of the low damage high Explosion radius of the mass driver does 70 base splash damage. Considering it is a grenade launcher one would expect these explosions to be at least as wide as the grenades we throw. It's now game breaking in the sense that it does almost 1 tenth of what an actual grenade would do taking ten shots to get anything done with splash damage. If you also factor in damage reduction to shield, you have a weapon that does less than 1 tenth the damage to any group of people than a grenade would do. Bring back old radius, it was not bad. Lower Splash damage or direct damage if needed, as it stands it is not an area of denial weapon as much as a water balloon thrower, mind you i get kills with it, but it's not effective at it's role. I like this BUT.. Cant we just roll it back to exactly how it was until you get the "synching" issues ironed out? And umm im just gonna say this.. The reason half the office was using this weapon is because they wanted something different..not because it was a popular weapon.. ITS NEVER BEEN POPULAR (been playing since it began and its always been a rare treat to see another MD either VS me or on same team ).. and unless you guys give yourselves free SP respecs whenever you feel like it.. You really had to choose this weapon from the beginning to be anywhere close to having Prof 5 and COmplex Modifiers.. Please just consider putting it back how it was..
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 655	Posted - 2013.05.11 10:42:00 - [138] - Quote Smoky The Bear wrote: went back to see if things got better... Umm no.. off the top of my head WOW the ar's are like 2 shotting me.. ffs.. Did heavys get a buff? they seem pretty damn powerful again.. maybe im totally off here.. even saw a couple snipers back on the BF (they saw me) As far as MD goes.. I wanted to add this.. There seems to be a slight lag from trigger press to launch.. it just doesnt come out the barrel right.. sometimes looks ok.. mostly not.. so either very SLOW or Laggy.. not sure.. sometimes the grenades launches from where you were just standing if looks like... Anyways.. real drag.. I guess since we dont have the #'s like the heavys (i have a heavy btw) we dont get the same consideration? Yeah, they did a blanket 10% damage boost to all weapons because the AR cryhards complained that they couldn't kill fast enough. All the other weapons got buffed back up to competitive levels, but the AR got a buff it didn't need. Damage for it was right in the sweet spot for damage and skill and outside of something to make it less effective inside its optimal range the TAR was finally balanced. Now, it's chromosome all over again with ARs praying and spraying outside their optimal range and beating people with range and damage mods instead of skill. Why must CCP keep catering to the AR? Hell, it's not even an AR, it needs to be renamed to Plasma Blaster. People see rifle and assume it's supposed to act like an assault rifle IRL when this variation is supposed to be short range, high damage. I'm getting off topic....
Medic 1879 The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 277	Posted - 2013.05.11 11:16:00 - [139] - Quote Is anyone else experiencing a glitch of where the smoke lands when you fire and where the explosion happening being two different places?
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 659	Posted - 2013.05.11 11:29:00 - [140] - Quote Medic 1879 wrote: Is anyone else experiencing a glitch of where the smoke lands when you fire and where the explosion happening being two different places? I haven't noticed. Does this occur at specific ranges?

Still blazn Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2013.05.11 17:49:00 - [141] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Medic 1879 wrote: Is anyone else experiencing a glitch of where the smoke lands when you fire and where the explosion happening being two different places? I haven't noticed. Does this occur at specific ranges? Dont think this has been much of a problem for me, BUt do recall VERY weird things happening at range.. sometimes NO puff of smoke.. and more times than not.. NO BLast radius..
Failonius Quantum Degeneracy 14	Posted - 2013.05.11 18:13:00 - [142] - Quote Leave damage as is, increase the radius. MDs should not be doing the killing. Only assisting with it.
Still blazn Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2013.05.11 18:19:00 - [143] - Quote Failonius wrote: Leave damage as is, increase the radius. MDs should not be doing the killing. Only assisting with it. BS..lol you wouldnt say that if you used a MD
Snaps Tremor The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 172	Posted - 2013.05.11 19:42:00 - [144] - Quote Medic 1879 wrote: Is anyone else experiencing a glitch of where the smoke lands when you fire and where the explosion happening being two different places? Check the dev posts, they've already confirmed a bug where there's a slight desync for the MD.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 374	Posted - 2013.05.11 20:31:00 - [145] - Quote Still blazn wrote: Failonius wrote: Leave damage as is, increase the radius. MDs should not be doing the killing. Only assisting with it. BS..lol you wouldnt say that if you used a MD i think if the brought back the old ranges would be fine. no one made buff or nerf complaints that often because is was balanced.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 177	Posted - 2013.05.11 21:13:00 - [146] - Quote Still blazn wrote: Wait what? Rounds flying straighter does not make it easier to get kills.. quite the opposite on flat ground with no dropoff its hard as hell to hit their feet.. (picture yourself in an open flat field)..and the range nerf makes that a very low % shot... as well as when hitting the wall beside them.. no blast radius means the wall eats it.. and enemy walks away.. And as another poster just pointed out AGAIN.. how does an overall across the board nerf in any way change the role? or anything else that sounds nice? it is what it is.. Try aiming for the chest, neck, or head depending distance instead of the feet. It's much, much easier to land those direct hits we never used to because of the arc. That's why I've been using the breach now. Speaking of the breach, it feels like the devs were trying to make the breach more viable. CCP doesn't make changes without reasons, but those reasons are what usually causes problems. Anyway, I'm finding myself getting 10, 12, and even 17 kills a round because getting direct hits are so easy. Therefore, I believe they were trying to help us, but wound up fixing something that wasn't broken in the first place. It's a shame really. Out of all the things I was looking for in uprising, it was the splash damage calculation being on a 3-D plane, which was the only issue I had with the MD in chrome.[/quote] Are you absolutely positive that you are hitting people in the head and chest and their body is causing the grenade to explode? Maybe I need to go back and do some test games, but last time I checked they were still going THROUGH the enemy.. either way.. theres no way im going to be using a MD that becomes necessary to get a head shot with.. [/quote] That has been my experience as well last build. I did sneak up behind some enemies and poped them in the pody directly and the round just went through them and landed on the other side. Maybe it's a glitch and sometimes it detonates on contact with a body and sometimes it does not. If that's the case and the glitch is fixed the weapon would be better but I want to point out that ROF is low and shells fly really slow so puting one in the chest is very difficult.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 177	Posted - 2013.05.11 22:34:00 - [147] - Quote Still blazn wrote: Failonius wrote: Leave damage as is, increase the radius. MDs should not be doing the killing. Only assisting with it. BS..lol you wouldnt say that if you used a MD The truth of the matter is that MD should be both. When you want to play support - for example in PI when your corp relies on you and you need coordinated team play with specialization, I think AoE - regular or assault MD are excellent for crowd control. But when you are playing solo in a pub match and just want to hone your skills with MD, you should be able to use Breach MD for direct hits and slaying. It does not have to be either AoE crowd control or direct slaying. Another point I want to make is that ppl tend to talk about Freedom MD mostly. And of all MD I think Freedom did come close to being OP. In general I against 'win buttons' in FPS. With Freedom you could both slay and crowd control - I think this kind of gameplay probably led CCP to nerf tho whole weapon class. I personally would be ok if they kept the regular MD nerfed but gave a buff to Breach and Assault to emphasize specialization. And if you remember there has always been terrible imbalance between different types of MD - the regular was staple and both assault and Breach were its gimp cousins that no one wanted to touch. So maybe now would be good time to fix this.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 696	Posted - 2013.05.11 23:21:00 - [148] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: The truth of the matter is that MD should be both. When you want to play support - for example in PI when your corp relies on you and you need coordinated team play with specialization, I think AoE - regular or assault MD are excellent for crowd control. But when you are playing solo in a pub match and just want to hone your skills with MD, you should be able to use Breach MD for direct hits and slaying. It does not have to be either AoE crowd control or direct slaying. Another point I want to make is that ppl tend to talk about Freedom MD mostly. And of all MD I think Freedom did come close to being OP. In general I against 'win buttons' in FPS. With Freedom you could both slay and crowd control - I think this kind of gameplay probably led CCP to nerf tho whole weapon class. I personally would be ok if they kept the regular MD nerfed but gave a buff to Breach and Assault to emphasize specialization. And if you remember there has always been terrible imbalance between different types of MD - the regular was staple and both assault and Breach were its gimp cousins that no one wanted to touch. So maybe now would be good time to fix this. You're missing the big picture here: The MD was both support, and a slayer weapon when it needed to be in public matches. Taking a page out of Keyser's book, judging a weapon based on public matches is counterproductive. The Freedom is a prototype, of course it's going to deal more damage to lower tiered or poorly fitted suits in pubs. But in corp battles, the entire MD line couldn't be used as a slayer weapon when everyone ran higher quality gear. In CBs, it was a support, area denial weapon exclusively and not a slayer. The main problem is that the MD has lost its arcing trajectory, splash radius, and splash damage in exchange focus on the slayer role. Rounds fly straighter and the MD plays like a mid ranged, gimped, low ROF, inferior DPS, AR that just happens to shoot grenades. This change has made the breach more viable, because it's easier to make direct hits, but the whole MD line has taken an unnecessary blow in utility and tactical uses. The lower radius and superficial splash damage stripped away the weapon's intimidating properties that were necessary for scattering bunched up squads, flushing out campers, defending areas, or simply herding the enemy away from a downed teammate. The MD is not the support weapon it once was. If I wanted more kills, I would be using a TAR with stacked damage mods and a modded controller. I hear that's working wonders these days since the blanket 10% damage bonus on weapons. I do agree that the breach needed something to make it more viable. For months, I've been suggesting that it needed a straighter trajectory and/or a significantly faster flying projectile than its brothers to make landing direct hits easier. The entire MD line didn't need to change for this.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 177	Posted - 2013.05.11 23:24:00 - [149] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Good news! Remnant is looking into the Mass Driver: CCP Remnant wrote: To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance. One, there appears to be a de-sync between client and server so that (more often than it should) the server and client think the projectile exploded in different places. They're not far off, but enough so that shots you think are spot on are off the mark enough to do only minor splash damage. And two, I'm told splash occlusion is getting blocked by a single player character more than it should, contributing to the "randomness" of the damage dealt and the sometimes smudgy feeling of the weapon. I'm hesitant to rebalance the weapon until we get these issues looked at (which is happening right now). Thanks for posting this. My hope is renewed. I can live with the new tragectory and re-learning/adjusting to the weapon, so long as there was an actual glitch reason for MD's inefficiency and it was not actually intended to be gimped into oblivion. Now thinking back on it, it makes sense - all the missed direct shots that were so frustrating are just software hiccups. This does not address the usefulness of the new tragectory that seems to be less effective for long range crowd control but I am willing to work with CCP for a couple of weeks after they fix the glitch and try to get used to how the weapon hands now.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 177	Posted - 2013.05.11 23:37:00 - [150] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: The truth of the matter is that MD should be both. When you want to play support - for example in PI when your corp relies on you and you need coordinated team play with specialization, I think AoE - regular or assault MD are excellent for crowd control. But when you are playing solo in a pub match and just want to hone your skills with MD, you should be able to use Breach MD for direct hits and slaying. It does not have to be either AoE crowd control or direct slaying. Another point I want to make is that ppl tend to talk about Freedom MD mostly. And of all MD I think Freedom did come close to being OP. In general I against 'win buttons' in FPS. With Freedom you could both slay and crowd control - I think this kind of gameplay probably led CCP to nerf tho whole weapon class. I personally would be ok if they kept the regular MD nerfed but gave a buff to Breach and Assault to emphasize specialization. And if you remember there has always been terrible imbalance between different types of MD - the regular was staple and both assault and Breach were its gimp cousins that no one wanted to touch. So maybe now would be good time to fix this. You're missing the big picture here: The MD was both support, and a slayer weapon when it needed to be in public matches. Taking a page out of Keyser's book, judging a weapon based on public matches is counterproductive. The Freedom is a prototype, of course it's going to deal more damage to lower tiered or poorly fitted suits in pubs. But in corp battles, the entire MD line couldn't be used as a slayer weapon when everyone ran higher quality gear. In CBs, it was a support, area denial weapon exclusively and not a slayer. The main problem is that the MD has lost its arcing trajectory, splash radius, and splash damage in exchange focus on the slayer role. Rounds fly straighter and the MD plays like a mid ranged, gimped, low ROF, inferior DPS, AR that just happens to shoot grenades. This change has made the breach more viable, because it's easier to make direct hits, but the whole MD line has taken an unnecessary blow in utility and tactical uses. The lower radius and superficial splash damage stripped away the weapon's intimidating properties that were necessary for scattering bunched up squads, flushing out campers, defending areas, or simply herding the enemy away from a downed teammate. The MD is not the support weapon it once was. If I wanted more kills, I would be using a TAR with stacked damage mods and a modded controller. I hear that's working wonders these days since the blanket 10% damage bonus on weapons. I do agree that the breach needed something to make it more viable. For months, I've been suggesting that it needed a straighter trajectory and/or a significantly faster flying projectile than its brothers to make landing direct hits easier. The entire MD line didn't need to change for this. Well I think everything is relative. To me it felt that Freedom MD was something like Duvolle AR - an unnecessarily powerful weapon. Sure you could argue the opposite 'if there are weapons like Duvolle in AR world, there is gotta be an MD that's as dominant in the MD world'. But that's just a matter of your view of the game mechanics in Dust in general and not pertinent to MD discussion we are having right now as far as I am concerned. In the ideal world I would like to see that all proto weapons are weaker. Again, it's a matter of opinion and belongs in a different thread. Also I don't think I am arguing against your point at all. I say that different version of MD are for different things. I believe that the balance should be such that depending on your play style you should be able to as effectively use the regular MD for crowd control and Breach for slaying - the game is not suffering from having both, so long as they are not coming from a single weapon. As far as MD being gimped too much - I am glad CCP issued a statement that the game code for MD was broken accounting for its weakness in games. It seems to me CCP is promising that MD is actually balanced and that they will work first on fixing the code and second on adjusting stats if MD is still weak after the code is fixed. Maybe with the code fixed MD would regain its crown control ability - I know the stats argue against it but I am still hopeful. Third point: I think giving reg MD and breach different tragectories would be a mistake. It would be very hard to adjust from switching back and forth. A faster traveling round for breach - yes definitely. I would also say go back to 4 round drup for Breach but increase ROF since in CQC you would want to hit high burst damage rather than sustain steady DPS for longer.



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