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Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 905	Posted - 2013.05.08 02:06:00 - [1] - Quote XXfootnoteXX wrote: Still blazn wrote: Can we hear from players that actually use a MD at a high level? I wouldnt be here if it wasnt absolutely BS... MD was my primary weapon last build. 95% of the time it was what I was using. I could use it with my logi or if I wanted to play pure assault. Now the MD is even more of a nitch weapon, it has taken a massive nerf. Has it ruined the MD? I dont think so, but the MD is now defiantly a situational weapon and while you see a lot of people running with them now I think a LOT will drop away from them. It will take a lot more time to use them proficiently. Damage did not take a nerf, but splash did. tl:dr MD did take a good sized nerf, those who have skill with them will still use them to great effect. ^This I can still use the MD and to fairly good effect but it did take a nerf. The highest splash MD used to have over 7m base (before skills) and now has 5m, all the rest have been similarly scaled down. When combined with the new shift in dps vs eHP ratio (i.e. game wide it's harder to kill things now, a change which I actually support) and the continued lack of spherical explosive ranges (currently 2d not 3d) the net effect is a substantial nerf. I do not think it's unplayable in this form but it's certainly a weaker weapon now than it was in the last build. My effective dps/KDR is much lower in this build than in Chromosome and I have more SP invested into the MD now in Uprising than I did in Chromosome, not just in raw SP but in actual skill levels trained. Currently within Uprising the MD isn't just a niche weapon, it's niche has been both diminished and somewhat redefined. Under Chromosome it was an area denial support weapon useful for either softening up targets or finishing off wounded opponents. It functioned very well in coordinated fire situations, and really sung when used from higher ground. Under Uprising it''s still a support weapon most useful in coordinated fire situations, and still greatly helped by use of high ground, but it's "area denial" value has been greatly stripped. It's splash is roughly speaking a third less across the board and the dps applied (due to other shifts in Uprising) as a lessor net effect. While the changes to the MD aren't as harsh as the HMG nerf they are in excess. Last build I could use the MD to suppress passage through choke points like a doorway long enough for my squad to reload. In the present build even with max damage skills some scouts (ADV by the way not just Proto) can take up to 4 direct hits before they drop. Even assuming my subjective first hand experience is off and one of those four hits missed and another was splash only that's still three rounds to take out the most fragile suit type allowing any player to simply rush through the choke point. If CCP for some reason truly felt the MD had to be nerfed it should at least have been done differently within every class of the weapon, the AoE focused versions should have kept splash and lost a bit of dps, the direct hit versions should have lost splash as per present and taken a bit of a hit to dmg (tho they've effectively already had that happen) and the mid range like the Freedom should have gotten a lighter version of both. This may all change when the splash damage is fixed so that it's 3d not 2d, but until then it seems like an over nerf that rather than promoting the role of the weapon just reduces it's overall effectiveness. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: Even the smoke is nerfed, I've had various non-MD users comment on it already.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 906	Posted - 2013.05.08 04:21:00 - [2] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Vickers S Grunt wrote: All i know about the mass driver is yesterday i was slaughtering everything that was put in front of me the guy who killed me the most ......had a mass driver The problem is that the splash damage made the weapon an area denial weapon. Right now it doesn't work that way. It doesn't make people choose a new route to rush you from. They just keep coming. I was doing great yesterday to be honest. But I don't think it will last. Lots of people are reacting to MD rounds the same way they used to. When they realize that it doesn't hurt their shields they are going to rush and like others have said above, make you ineffective. I understand that you can use a flux, but in CQ the flux will hurt yourself and your teammates even without FF on. I also understand that you have to adapt, but I think the drawbacks of the MD are now too great to consider using it in planetary conquest. I'm going to stick with it because perhaps I'll find the sweet spot. Maybe I'll try the KB/M again. Those saying that the damage didn't get nerfed are incorrect. The Freedom went from 270 to 240 (approximately). Overall it just seems that they should have tried removing the sharpshooter (range) skill and nerfing the laser a bit then see what happens. How can they get an idea of what to do if they change everything? ^This is a very valid question/assessment with regards to balancing and development. While I'm sure there was internal testing done there's no way for internal QA to account for everything a full player base can/will do and altering so many variables at once makes the true effect/meaning of the changes much harder to track. Another thing worth noting is that these changes were not clearly and specifically listed, if you're going to change fundamental elements of a weapon during a patch, especially one which comes with a respec then listing nefs to damage, splash, etc is a pretty fundamental thing to do. As I've stated elsewhere I had fewer skills (both SP and Levels) into MD in the last build than I do in Uprising and my Freedom now works almost as well as my EXO did then (excluding the price point in both ISK and CPU/PG). Besides the overall drop in effectiveness the role of the weapon has been nerfed. Dust will live or die by it's diversity and the ability of players to make 'risk v reward' choices. The way this change was handled is been a kick in the pants to both of those (and the poor Heavies got it even worse
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 935	Posted - 2013.05.10 06:46:00 - [3] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Been trying them on an alt... quite disappointing. Sure splash damage is a big advantage, but the range, firing arc, and low DPS compared to the AR (even with direct hits) balanced it. Now it seems like a pointless trinket for novelty, not something actually meant to be used for serious conflicts. And then there's the ammo, when a weapon takes ~4 rounds to kill and holds ~18 rounds it's useful life is very limited and supply dependent. The ammo limit was a great balancing aspect prior to the nerf, now it's more like insult to injury. And we haven't even talked about trying to fight an opponent who has any elevation advantage. I would like to hear CCP explain what battlefield role they see the Mass Driver filling and how this nerf properly supports that role while still keeping the weapon viable.... because quite frankly I don't see that it does either. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 946	Posted - 2013.05.11 02:47:00 - [4] - Quote I'll reiterate this basic point again as I have done in various threads regarding all sorts of weapons and game mechanics. Balance needs to be derived from the average not the outliers. What this means in a general context is that if you are in the top 20% then you are not an appropriate case for balance assessments. Nefing things so the they "take skill" (i.e. are significantly more difficult to use) for those with the top gun game is bad game design. It's net effect is to take those few who are already excelling and give them an even greater advantage. This creates more pub stomps, red lines, and blow outs. Meaning that ultimately this creates a more boring play experience and diminishes the over all player population. Not all weapons function the same, nor should they. Weapons, like any of the other gear, or indeed many of the skills in Dust ideally should fill a role and be evaluated with regards to the success in that role. At bear minimum evaluations need to be more complex than is "X weapon good/bad" and they certainly need more context then anecdotal debates between various players about their KDR in a smattering of matches (matches which often aren't even put in any sort of context). Balance is about game health, not personal preference, a specific play style or a singular feature/role. Consider this a request to for all concerned to provide detailed, sober feedback within explicit context, and hopefully to do so with a focus on the macro level of the game rather than simply on their own personal reactions. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 947	Posted - 2013.05.11 03:56:00 - [5] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I'll reiterate this basic point again as I have done in various threads regarding all sorts of weapons and game mechanics. Balance needs to be derived from the average not the outliers. What this means in a general context is that if you are in the top 20% then you are not an appropriate case for balance assessments. Nefing things so the they "take skill" (i.e. are significantly more difficult to use) for those with the top gun game is bad game design. It's net effect is to take those few who are already excelling and give them an even greater advantage. This creates more pub stomps, red lines, and blow outs. Meaning that ultimately this creates a more boring play experience and diminishes the over all player population. Not all weapons function the same, nor should they. Weapons, like any of the other gear, or indeed many of the skills in Dust ideally should fill a role and be evaluated with regards to the success in that role. At bear minimum evaluations need to be more complex than is "X weapon good/bad" and they certainly need more context then anecdotal debates between various players about their KDR in a smattering of matches (matches which often aren't even put in any sort of context). Balance is about game health, not personal preference, a specific play style or a singular feature/role. Consider this a request to for all concerned to provide detailed, sober feedback within explicit context, and hopefully to do so with a focus on the macro level of the game rather than simply on their own personal reactions. 0.02 ISK Cross This blanket statement just points out that all you did was read the OP and maybe just skimmed the rest of the fist page. The problem with the mass driver isn't because it's not this super OP weapon that got nerfed. The problem is the tactical aspects and utility of the weapon has been traded for the ability to slay. Please go further in the topic and read some of the more recent posts. We've been trying to find out the direction the Devs took the MD and why we disagree with it. My 0.4 ISK Cosgar False conclusion is false. I've read the thread, even participated in it as it's progressed, note post #59, Post #62, Post #93. As a point of interest I actually raised the question of why CCP made the changes they did and what their intentions were/are several posts ago Cross Atu wrote: I would like to hear CCP explain what battlefield role they see the Mass Driver filling and how this nerf properly supports that role while still keeping the weapon viable.... because quite frankly I don't see that it does either. 0.02 ISK Cross I've been around for MASS DR1V3R making statements about the superiority of the EX0 over the Freedom, and while I agree that yes the Freedom is hands down the better weapon I find the contention that using one is an address to all the current MD issues to be inaccurate, as I stated in a post 41 posts prior to his Cross Atu wrote: As I've stated elsewhere I had fewer skills (both SP and Levels) into MD in the last build than I do in Uprising and my Freedom now works almost as well as my EXO did then (excluding the price point in both ISK and CPU/PG). Besides the overall drop in effectiveness the role of the weapon has been nerfed. Dust will live or die by it's diversity and the ability of players to make 'risk v reward' choices. The way this change was handled is been a kick in the pants to both of those (and the poor Heavies got it even worse I stand by my general concept statement and will further point out that it wasn't directed at anyone specifically, that's why it was a general statement.... although it is interesting that you felt the need to react to it and did so by inaccurately assuming I hadn't read the thread even after you've quoted prior posts of mine herein. Getting more fully back on topic; the recent hotfix has helped to a degree however while potential kill to clip ratio is better now that does not diminish how the changes in general have nerfed the role of the MD or does it make the blanket nature of the changes better. There are variations of MD and they should remain diverse even if (for some reason I haven't yet seen) the MD needed to be nerfed. The current changes as they stand, hotfix or no, are not supportive of the niche the MD fills and constrain it to a role more like the AR (but generally less effective at it). As such I'll reiterate my call for CCP to explain why these changes were made and what their vision for the MD's role on the battlefield is. Personally I think they should simply be rolled back, but I'd rather ask for information than make demands. Oh and these new changes reduce the tactical elements of MD use in PC as well because now you're just unloading at red dots rather than having to maintain situational awareness to avoid hurting your squad with FF. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 947	Posted - 2013.05.11 05:26:00 - [6] - Quote @Cosgar, first I want to apologies if my prior response was a bit on the surly side I let some unrelated stuff influence the tone of my post. That was a slip on my part and I own that, thank you for being reasonable in your reply. In answer to your question I posted that when I did because it seemed the thread was starting to get a bit off track, less conversation about the MD it's stats, uses and status. More ad hominem and hyperbolic exchanges. I was hoping to bring the focus back on point because I think the topic is important both in the sense that I enjoy the unique play niche of the MD and in drawing CCPs attention to the larger concept of role (as well as stat) based balance considerations. As you've rightly pointed out a weapon being effective and tactically valuable is not always about it's status as a piece of 'slayer' gear. Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 952	Posted - 2013.05.12 06:06:00 - [7] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Good news! Remnant is looking into the Mass Driver: CCP Remnant wrote: To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance. One, there appears to be a de-sync between client and server so that (more often than it should) the server and client think the projectile exploded in different places. They're not far off, but enough so that shots you think are spot on are off the mark enough to do only minor splash damage. And two, I'm told splash occlusion is getting blocked by a single player character more than it should, contributing to the "randomness" of the damage dealt and the sometimes smudgy feeling of the weapon. I'm hesitant to rebalance the weapon until we get these issues looked at (which is happening right now). Excellent news, thanks for linking (and I'm glad we cleared the air on that other matter). Cheers, Cross Addendum; I really do hope that they 'shift' the stats a bit on the MD so that the three variations are more unique. The AR line has diverse options within it why not the other weapons including our favorite tactical support launcher
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 952	Posted - 2013.05.12 15:49:00 - [8] - Quote Cosgar wrote: MASS DR1V3R wrote: On another note, I think that some of the problems with the rounds have been happening well before Uprising, and the blast radius nerf just exacerbated the effects. Especially when it has to do with a round not exploding where it's intended. I also talked about the rounds going through people back in Chromosome. It was my first post on these forums: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=507802#post507802. Yeah, I remember reading about that in the archives. People had issues with rounds going through people and falling through the ground or walls during previous builds. But it wasn't just MD rounds but grenades also. Chrome seemingly fixed all of those issues and the only lingering problem was the damage calculations being applied on a 2-D plane. That's why if someone had so much as a pixel of elevation or incline, there wouldn't be any damage registered. Flux grenades were awkward to use at times because if this too. The discharge looks spherical so you would assume that everything in range of it, but there were times it wouldn't register. So it looks like whatever they did with the coding in uprising, the MD has in a way reverted back to previous builds. But my question is, why haven't grenades experienced the same glitch if the MD is acting up again? There's another aspect of that which I've experienced/seen others experience both with nades and MD rounds and that's the round never detonating at all. This behavior seems less common in Uprising but not absent and is compounded by MD rounds more rapidly/frequently "ranging out" (tho the ranging out is linked to other things that CCP has already stated are going to be addressed with the range system iteration). Uprising despite it's positive new features seems to have revivified a verity of our old bugs which we'd thought gone. Issues with the MD, and the broken state of the TAR being just a couple. I'm very tempted to compile a list of the problems currently encountered when using the MD but it's hard to assess what is related to the issues raised by the Devs (pixel occlusion and sever/client de sync) or the lack of a 3d splash. With those three things fixed the use experience is likely to be substantially different so I'm hesitant to call for many other tweaks etc. It is interesting to note however that in my testing thus far the boundless seems to provide the nearest play experience to the Freedom of last build. Preliminary observations show it provided more suppressive ability and more opportunities for tactical uses such as "banking" the rounds to soften targets around a corner/in light cover prior to a focused push the be the rest of the squad. Even with the boundless my ratio of kills to assists has changed. In Uprising it seems that if I can damage an opponent at all I can likely kill them outright, such behavior is fine in a Core variation MD but seems incorrect in a Boundless style weapon. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: I almost forgot, here are a few use comparisons, they are anecdotal being based on my direct use but should hold some value in that they're all derived from my aim/gun game so they factor out the subjectivity of player skill to a degree. Uprising Freedom effectiveness = Chromosome EX0 Current Ex0 effectiveness (with heavy SP investment) = 'Exile' AR effectiveness without any SP invested. Boundless (nearest to Uprising Freedom use experience that I've found) <= Freedom from Uprising All assessments are made across engagement ranges close/mid/long. Exclude considerations of ammunition depletion/clip size (the 'Exile' and Boundless win out there if anyones interested). Are derived from fittings which use zero damage mods (I'm attempting to assess the weapons not the fits). And are derived from several hours of play within multiple game modes attempting to focus on both "slayer" squad play and "support" squad play (attempting to run purely solo results on only the 'Exile" preforming reliably/consistently however I hesitate to draw firm conclusions from this due to the number of variables involved).
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 952	Posted - 2013.05.12 17:23:00 - [9] - Quote MASS DR1V3R wrote: I've noticed this especially when firing from the high ground. If you fire past around 50 meters, the shells don't explode. They slide along the ground until they hit something else like a wall and then explode. Easiest way to test this is on Ashlands. Start at B and head towards D. When you get to the wall, fire a round down to the ground a little past halfway to D. The round won't explode but will slide in a straight line to the D outer frame. I haven't noticed this as much when firing that far on level ground. But that may be because at that distance, it's just a little difficult to see. Interesting, I'll see if I can reproduce that and respond with my observations.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 1006	Posted - 2013.05.21 13:38:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Hi guys, We have been looking in to the Mass Driver and we have identified two technical issues that are causing problems for it. Firstly we found that the way we check for splash damage is prone to GÇ£missingGÇ¥ partially occluded targets. We have now improved the system to solve this problem (literally yesterday). We will be testing it internally to make sure it causes no new issues and to see if it requires any rebalance on the weapon. We have also found issues with the Mass Driver projectile and client/server de-sync. In poor network conditions the projectile can GÇ£miss the markGÇ¥ making the weapon feel unreliable. We are looking in to this issue as well. We are considering increasing the splash radius but we are hesitant to make significant changes to the weapons balance whilst we are still encountering technical issues with its performance. WeGÇÖll keep you informed on how the new splash fix works out. Cheers CCP Wolfman Thanks for the updated info I look forward to seeing the net effect of the changes + fixes and providing feedback accordingly. @Thread in general. The net function of Chrome MD was solid and didn't seem OP'ed when compared to other weapons (actually a bit weaker than some but that's another thread) however since CCP has confirmed that these aiming and occlusion bugs were present then as well it makes sense that the weapon base stats would be lower (once bugs are fixed) to provide the same functionality as the MD possessed under Chrome. Additional note: I'd like to once again raise the idea of balance within the MD line being based on the type of role/value each MD type possesses rather than using the same nerf/buff method across the board. If a MD is low damage high splash than weight it's nerfs a bit more toward damage and keep the splash, if it's more of a high damage low splash weapon do the opposite. Of course this must be a matter or ratios but it strikes me as valuable to keep in mind for the sake of internal weapon diversity. Cheers, Cross

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 1028	Posted - 2013.05.29 23:35:00 - [11] - Quote J Falcs wrote: About the contact nades: Splash damage on all 6 shells of the Exo-5 (1 complex damage mod, prof 3) = 870 with a blast radius of 3.88. Splash damage on all 6 shells of the Freedom (1 complex damage mod, prof 3) = 912 with a blast radius of 4.13. Splash damage on all 3 contact grenades = 1200 with a blast radius of 6.00 Now I just need to figure out if I can pump out the 3 grenades faster than I can pump out the shells of my MD. I know I don't have to go into skill requirements or fitting requirements for the above analysis, but needless to say, it's lopsided in favor of the nades. The nades also have a dedicated slot of their own and don't take up a Light Weapon slot. Meaning that while someone using a MD has given up other battlefield advantages to run it (use of other light weapons) the player using contact nades can still be rocking a TAR as well (and I've already lost count of the number of six man squads I've seen doing just that). If the MD is going to stay as a pale version of the grenade (albeit one with more rounds on board) then can we at least get two additional MD lines one that does Flux style damage and one for AV? Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1032	Posted - 2013.05.31 00:39:00 - [12] - Quote Update: I've now been playing with MD throughout Uprising and here are my further experiences. MD under Uprising still remains drastically less effective on average. The Freedom of Uprising is what the EXO was under Chromosome. There are many variables still in play of course, the bugs CCP has mentioned, the brokenly powerful TAR the return of contact nades (and the lack of scaling within the MD line to accommodate that). I come from EVE and there's a motto oft thrown around there "Adapt or Die". Most people use it more as a fancy way of saying "STFU" but I'd like to consider a more sophisticated use of the phrase. Let's consider the following The player that cannot adapt will "die" (i.e. fail and perhaps give up playing) The item that cannot 'adapt' will die (i.e. cease to be used as its value no longer justifies it's cost). I've learned to be adaptable and I've spent Uprising trying to adapt to the current state of the MD. When my prior heavily tanked Logi build with MD ceased to be functional I altered my fits. Stacking more armor in place of shields, adding more damage mods to compensate for the underwhelming showing of the current MD. This has met with some success however it removes much of my support functionality as my "already-slower-than-an-assault " logi suit is even slower with the use of armor plates and even on a logi suit I lack the low slots to fully make up for the HP loss due to high slots now filled with damage mods. The combined effects of being both slower and more squish (not to mention bright yellow) result in a nearly unplayable fitting outside of highly rarefied contexts. I can still camp an objective panel from above with great effect but then I'm not being a Logi because I'm isolated from my squad. Over the course of this build I've found myself using my prototype Mass Driver less and less. In it's place I've been using my free AR. As it turns out using a Dren, Exile, or Militia AR nets me on average more kills than use of the proto mass driver (note I say proto mass driver because I'm not using just one type). Furthermore the free AR costs me less ISK, takes less CPU/PG to fit and is doing all this with an investment of zero SP as opposed to the several million it takes to max out the MD (note my MD skills are not all maxed, but they are high enough to use every MD on the market). In addition to the above I'm running my AR fits with a full shield tank and no damage mods, this allows me to survive longer and spend more time on support actions (a weak tank means you can't support your squad until all hostiles are dead, which makes a Logi 2/3rds useless most of the time) so my free AR fits are on average earning me more War Points (and thus more SP and ISK) than my proto MD fits. As the build wears on I use the MD rarely and the free AR often, I can only imagine how much better the performance of the AR would be if I were using any of the advanced, let alone proto (let's just leave the TAR out of it) ARs or had any SP invested to support my free AR. *"Adapt or Die"* yes such is the nature of New Eden and as things currently stand I will be forced to adapt by moving into the use of a less support oriented weapon, because ironically it now fills the support role better than the MD currently does. And while I adapt the MD will largely die because even those who can employ raw gun game enough to make it work will only do so out of nostalgia or stubbornness when you can get a TAR (or other proto AR) for the same price in ISK and SP. An ETA on the bug fixes would be great because it takes around 14.5 months to max out a light weapon (assuming you cap every week and use both boosters). If the fixes that will make possibly make the MD on balance viable again are coming in that range or sometime after I'd love to know it so I can put my points elsewhere in the mean time. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1038	Posted - 2013.05.31 16:07:00 - [13] - Quote Cosgar's Alt wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Mass driver is a dead weapon, just like the laser rifle now. Man, I'm almost tempted to use my respec just to focus on my logi suit, modules, equipment, and core skills with 0 SP in a weapon and use the Exile 24/7. ARs are so powerful compared to everything else that you don't even need SP invested in them. I've actually begun doing this already even without a remap simply because it's proving on balance more effective (not to mention totally free). To be fair I use the Militia AR, the Dren AR, and the Toxin AR just for verities sake... but then again aside from their appearance their differences are minimal. Even at it's height the LR never competed with the GEK for title of "killed me most" during Chrome. And that's a single AR type vs an entire light weapon type. Under Uprising it's a new day and the TAR currently reigns supreme yet I still see the GEK getting more killfeed time than the LR or MD combined (granted this is a subjective sample of my own experiences but when compared with Chrome it's still pretty telling.) While I understand why CCP would be hesitant to alter weapon values while bugs are still effecting gameplay I have to wonder where the risk is within this situation? Under the prior Chrome values the MD was not the most powerful nor most used weapon the field, it wasn't even the second most common within the matches I played. It was also one of the least easy to use as it shared the least with other weapons regarding aiming, fire time (projectile impact delay, not RoF) etc. To be totally blunt I thought it was OP'ed at the start of Chrome... then I took the challenge another Merc issued to me and I actually played with it. What I discovered was a niche support weapon which wouldn't net me kills very often but could grab many assists and provide a worthy tactical value while doing so. It was a great weapon for a Logi and flattening that role into more of a pure slayer usage devalues the entire MD line bugs or no bugs. Having a more direct fire high damage type is great, I like the option being present but compressing the utility of the whole MD weapon type further into that module? I still can't see a reason for that, nor have I yet heard a Dev response (or even a player response for that matter) which contests this conclusion. We could all earn the SP to run Proto MDs by next build staring from 0 SP invested now... CCP any chance we can find out if those fixes are likely to be implemented fully before the next build is released? It'd be interesting to see how much my free AR eclipses the utility of my Proto MD if I actually had SP spent into ARs which I may end up doing if the fixes are months away. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1044	Posted - 2013.06.01 02:55:00 - [14] - Quote I realize this is not a comment which will be exclusive to the Mass Driver but it is relevant to the Mass Driver situation. Hold for triple layered font effects of emphasis. All "ninja" nerfs/buffs most unequivocally cease! Listed in the stats for the weapon etc is also patendtly inadquate, every time there is a change to the stats of any weapon, suit, skill, et al the specific details need to be listed in a patch notes thread along with an in game notice that such a change has been made and to see the thread for details. Ideally all smaller changes (read those which are not a new build) would be sent out to all characters via an in game mail message as well so that those PS3 users who do not possess ready access to a computer are not left out of the loop. Dealing with having a weapon toned down due to it being overpowered (even if I've spent SP into it) is fine. No respec needed, no complaints. However dealing with any piece of gear or any skill which has been altered without specific notice shifts the burden of responsibility to the developers rather than the players for it is patently unreasonable to expect every player to review every skill and bit of gear they use each and every time they log in to play the game. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1046	Posted - 2013.06.01 03:15:00 - [15] - Quote Cosgar's Alt wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I realize this is not a comment which will be exclusive to the Mass Driver but it is relevant to the Mass Driver situation. Hold for triple layered font effects of emphasis. All "ninja" nerfs/buffs most unequivocally cease! Listed in the stats for the weapon etc is also patendtly inadquate, every time there is a change to the stats of any weapon, suit, skill, et al the specific details need to be listed in a patch notes thread along with an in game notice that such a change has been made and to see the thread for details. Ideally all smaller changes (read those which are not a new build) would be sent out to all characters via an in game mail message as well so that those PS3 users who do not possess ready access to a computer are not left out of the loop. Dealing with having a weapon toned down due to it being overpowered (even if I've spent SP into it) is fine. No respec needed, no complaints. However dealing with any piece of gear or any skill which has been altered without specific notice shifts the burden of responsibility to the developers rather than the players for it is patently unreasonable to expect every player to review every skill and bit of gear they use each and every time they log in to play the game. 0.02 ISK Cross You need to make a topic on this. Preferably general, since they're going to wind up moving it to ~~the graveyard~~ feedback anyway. Might as well give it some exposure. Just add a little more background on the situation, including the HMG, pistols, and all vehicles. All of the above suffered significant ninja nerfs. You know what? I think I'll do that right now.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1056	Posted - 2013.06.01 05:15:00 - [16] - Quote Cosgar's Alt wrote: xSir Campsalotx wrote: I've seen the proto type mass drivers being used with caldari logi to good effect (not great) but I've seen these guys do some mean damage. Albeit it's most likely to them stacking damage mods and it seemed like they always had high ground. I'm a heavy and the HMG is not as good as it once was but works good in its cqc niche. We both got hit uprising and CCP has somewhat rectified the hard nerf but we are limited. I hope CCP fixes your MD problem but try focusing on being on high ground it seems to boost MD power just my observation. Lol still kill armor tankers pretty decent. Your support is appreciated. I'm glad that your weapon was brought back to some semblance of usefulness. In fact, not too long ago I was in the city map and there was a heavy that was wrecking out team like it was his job. My whole squad was cursing though our teeth at this guy until one guy shouted "These goddamned heavies need to be nerfed!" Right then and there, I knew you guys were in good shape again. Should another OP ever pop up these forums to declare your effectiveness on the battlefield be reduced again, I'll make sure I do my part to defend your role as I hope you do the same with mine. Us niche characters need to stick together and preserve our different playstyles for the sake of balance and variety in this game. ^This. All of it.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1059	Posted - 2013.06.01 20:01:00 - [17] - Quote Cosgar's Alt wrote: More classic MD footage... I'm still puzzled by this bit, even assuming that the hit detection issues et al more or less balance out the stat nerfs and give us a on balance Chrome level MD (which certainly wasn't overpowered as I learned through testing), even if all that is accurate and pans out why the alteration to the smoke? It's not part of the numbers but the smoke most certainly was part of the tactical value of the MD as a support weapon, for example it most certainly helps a support player preform a rearguard action while the squad makes a tactical retreat. I wonder what the motive behind changing it was.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1069	Posted - 2013.06.02 01:48:00 - [18] - Quote NaglfarBP wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Someone should create a MD channel so we can squad up. Maybe between 6 of us and a ton of nano hives we can make up for the hit detection. I'd be up for that. Sounds fun. C'mon CCP give us an update on how MD fix is going. All sorts of this^ And to reiterate, once we have a channel name I'll show up there Cheers, Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1078	Posted - 2013.06.04 06:20:00 - [19] - Quote Smoky The Bear wrote: TonYtigr wrote: Cosgar's Alt wrote: TonYtigr wrote: Great idea for the MD channel. I suggest ''MDunited''. I'm gonna be there! How about.... Massholes +1 for Massholes Lets just go with Massholes.. Ill put up the channel now .. stand together or die seperately Channel name noted, will check it out in game.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1108	Posted - 2013.06.08 14:26:00 - [20] - Quote If anyone has the numbers I'd be interested in a contrast between the old MD stats vs nades (esp the contact nades) and then a second contrast between the new MD stats and nades (again esp the contacts). For ease of contrast I was thinking base stats for 1 MD clip vs 2 nades. The clip will take longer to deploy (i.e. shoot) and the nades are a bit more finite (i.e. only one "clip" before have/depot) so it gives us a decent ballpark to look at. Of course the nades don't take a light weapon slot so there's that implicit advantage but we can keep that in mind rather than try to correct the base data for it. Anyone have these numbers on hand? Cross

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1146	Posted - 2013.06.12 05:01:00 - [21] - Quote EA /shudder never again EA, never again. /on topic We really need at least an approximate ETA on the bug fixes related to the MD issues so that we have a time frame for when we can test and provide direct feedback on the new values in an unbroken context. As long as Grenades maintain their current stats I honestly expect the MD to require a buff even after the fixes but it would be nice to know when I'll be able to actually begin testing that hypothesis in game. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1147	Posted - 2013.06.12 07:01:00 - [22] - Quote Cosgar wrote: I would love to get some game sin with the devs, Mass Drivers, Lasers, Scrambler Rifles, HMGs, Shotguns, the whole nine and we can all get wiped out by MLT ARs together laughing all the way. I've said it before and I'll say it again, my free AR is currently a more effective weapon than my proto MD. I acknowledge that there are bugs but some of them are game wide bugs meaning my free AR is operating under them as well and yet seems to suffer less (either that or the bugs aren't actually altering balance between weapons). I'm guessing the single shot nature of the MD makes them more susceptible to certain bugs but I do have to wonder as contact grenades seem to be working pretty well (if they're doing this while suffering from the bugs then post fix they'll be the new "I Win Button" . I would love to get some games in with Devs to test this stuff. My proposal is a player team restricted to using only BPOs/Militia gear against a Dev team restricted to not using ARs, Cal Logi, or sniping of any kind (the whole on top of/inside the MCC thing wouldn't help testing nor would redline sniping in a HAV). I'm a Logi with a poor average KDR but I'd be happy to put my free fit up against such an opposing gear configuration, and I think the results would be rather telling... at the very least they have been in game for me thus far within Uprising (even post TAR nerf). 0.02 ISK Cross

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