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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
175
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Posted - 2013.05.11 00:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
I had MD 5 and proficiency 1 last buid but only used up to advanced MD. I could reliably kill even with Breach MD which I ended up liking more because in my mind it was more skill dependent since you had to aim well. This build it's total garbage. Admitedly I have MD only to 3 but splash damage is so low and glitchy it does not do anything. And for some reason direct hits have become near impossible (which definitely was not the case last build). Some say it's the smoke trail that's way off, others say it's b/c half the shells disappear in landscape w/o exploding (anymation of explosion not being the same as the explosion itself taking place) like they did a couple of builds ago. I personally think that ROF and time of shell flight got also nerfed a lot. To me the time of shell flight is especially annoying since I can line up a shot pefectly at a targe 5-10 m away and the target can more far enough in the time that it takes for the shell to reach them to move out of the direct hit area and get away only with the miniscule damage from splash. Leading a taget is not an option either in close quarters as ppl zig and zag too much to make it possible. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
175
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Posted - 2013.05.11 00:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:1. all weapon do less damage because weaponry does not increase damage any more.
2. lets be honest, the all MD was just too good. I used it before and often I was sitting somewhere and aiming at the general direction of an enemy squad trying to take an objective and I was collecting kills left and right due to the huge splash without a big effort and no chance of retaliation. the "nerf" brings it on par of other weapons, now you have to aim better thats all.
Uhuh...
i remem seeing ur name right at the top of the KDR leaderboards. Gotta be all those mad MD kills
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Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
175
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Posted - 2013.05.11 01:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Anyone else notice everything except the AR got a damage nerf?
Yep, cuz CCP are scared to touch the AR since 80% of players play with it. I think CCP caters to the AR club. I think two builds ago they tried to nerf AR damage and got a tihs storm on the forums. Suffice it to say that AR has not lost any ground. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
175
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Posted - 2013.05.11 01:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
MASS DR1V3R wrote:Smoky The Bear wrote:MASS DR1V3R wrote:This thread is a joke. I run the MD at a proficiency of only lvl 1 and I'm regularly going 21/3, 14/0, 16/3, etc. with the Freedom. I think the worst game I've had with the Freedom was 12/6 with like 18 assists. If you aren't doing well with it, then your aim is off. I've even pissed off my own corp mates using it during q-synced matches. I reply with "you have nothing to complain about anymore since the blast radius got nerfed. You actually have to have SKILL to use it now."
And when PC hits and friendly fire is on, everyone will be rejoicing the fact that the blast radius got nerfed. It will still be a viable weapon in CQC even with corp mates around. If it had the Chromosome blast radius, all MD users would be holding their shots a LOT more so or risk getting yelled at by their own team. You sir.. are a LIAR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RucZsGn0W_oLuckily I had a corp mate recording some matches last night. Here you go. The video isn't of me, but I'm in the match. You can go to the end if you want to just look at end of match screen. I went 11/0 using the Freedom as my primary, and I was pinned down by 2 tanks through part of the match. He recorded another match where I went 12/9 using the standard mass driver as my primary. Maybe you just aren't as good as you thought you were.
Funny how the video got pulled. I wonder why. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
177
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Posted - 2013.05.11 05:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
MASS DR1V3R wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:MASS DR1V3R wrote:Smoky The Bear wrote:MASS DR1V3R wrote:This thread is a joke. I run the MD at a proficiency of only lvl 1 and I'm regularly going 21/3, 14/0, 16/3, etc. with the Freedom. I think the worst game I've had with the Freedom was 12/6 with like 18 assists. If you aren't doing well with it, then your aim is off. I've even pissed off my own corp mates using it during q-synced matches. I reply with "you have nothing to complain about anymore since the blast radius got nerfed. You actually have to have SKILL to use it now."
And when PC hits and friendly fire is on, everyone will be rejoicing the fact that the blast radius got nerfed. It will still be a viable weapon in CQC even with corp mates around. If it had the Chromosome blast radius, all MD users would be holding their shots a LOT more so or risk getting yelled at by their own team. You sir.. are a LIAR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RucZsGn0W_oLuckily I had a corp mate recording some matches last night. Here you go. The video isn't of me, but I'm in the match. You can go to the end if you want to just look at end of match screen. I went 11/0 using the Freedom as my primary, and I was pinned down by 2 tanks through part of the match. He recorded another match where I went 12/9 using the standard mass driver as my primary. Maybe you just aren't as good as you thought you were. Funny how the video got pulled. I wonder why. Dude, you're in my corp. I know there's like 700 of us but wtf. If you had read on the keq forums, I asked cody already why he pulled it. I haven't had a chance to speak to him yet though.
So, yes. And I am sure we ll have a lot of good games together. But what you are posting here is a different matter.
All I see is ppl run around spam Duvole TAR. I try to use breach MD and get tish for results and I used to do good with the weapon. And you are telling eveyone that MD is the same or even better than before. I don't know - maybe you figured out a way to use it in the new build. Obviously its mechanics have changed, so it's possible. But when you say that all of the ppl in this thread have no skill with the weapon and MD actually shines and is borderline OP and it's ppl's lack of skill that's to blame - you are actually talking to ppl who used MD as their primary weapon for a good while, so that's insulting to a lot of us. As support for your argument you are giving a link that's not working. So it's just not constructive at all. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
177
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Posted - 2013.05.11 05:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Cross Atu wrote:I'll reiterate this basic point again as I have done in various threads regarding all sorts of weapons and game mechanics.
Balance needs to be derived from the average not the outliers. What this means in a general context is that if you are in the top 20% then you are not an appropriate case for balance assessments. Nefing things so the they "take skill" (i.e. are significantly more difficult to use) for those with the top gun game is bad game design. It's net effect is to take those few who are already excelling and give them an even greater advantage. This creates more pub stomps, red lines, and blow outs. Meaning that ultimately this creates a more boring play experience and diminishes the over all player population.
Not all weapons function the same, nor should they. Weapons, like any of the other gear, or indeed many of the skills in Dust ideally should fill a role and be evaluated with regards to the success in that role. At bear minimum evaluations need to be more complex than is "X weapon good/bad" and they certainly need more context then anecdotal debates between various players about their KDR in a smattering of matches (matches which often aren't even put in any sort of context).
Balance is about game health, not personal preference, a specific play style or a singular feature/role.
Consider this a request to for all concerned to provide detailed, sober feedback within explicit context, and hopefully to do so with a focus on the macro level of the game rather than simply on their own personal reactions.
0.02 ISK Cross This blanket statement just points out that all you did was read the OP and maybe just skimmed the rest of the fist page. The problem with the mass driver isn't because it's not this super OP weapon that got nerfed. The problem is the tactical aspects and utility of the weapon has been traded for the ability to slay. Please go further in the topic and read some of the more recent posts. We've been trying to find out the direction the Devs took the MD and why we disagree with it. My 0.4 ISK Cosgar
What 'ability to slay' stats got worse not better. It's not like direct damage was buffed and AoE got nerfed. MD took only nerf and no buff in any aspect. Please, clarify what you mean when you say that now it has turned from support to slayer weapon. All I see is that the 'slaying' is the same or worse (read, direct damage) and support got severely nerfed (read, AOE/Splash). Or maybe I did not understand what you meant. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
177
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Posted - 2013.05.11 21:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Still blazn wrote: Wait what? Rounds flying straighter does not make it easier to get kills.. quite the opposite on flat ground with no dropoff its hard as hell to hit their feet.. (picture yourself in an open flat field)..and the range nerf makes that a very low % shot... as well as when hitting the wall beside them.. no blast radius means the wall eats it.. and enemy walks away..
And as another poster just pointed out AGAIN.. how does an overall across the board nerf in any way change the role? or anything else that sounds nice? it is what it is..
Try aiming for the chest, neck, or head depending distance instead of the feet. It's much, much easier to land those direct hits we never used to because of the arc. That's why I've been using the breach now. Speaking of the breach, it feels like the devs were trying to make the breach more viable. CCP doesn't make changes without reasons, but those reasons are what usually causes problems. Anyway, I'm finding myself getting 10, 12, and even 17 kills a round because getting direct hits are so easy. Therefore, I believe they were trying to help us, but wound up fixing something that wasn't broken in the first place. It's a shame really. Out of all the things I was looking for in uprising, it was the splash damage calculation being on a 3-D plane, which was the only issue I had with the MD in chrome.[/quote]
Are you absolutely positive that you are hitting people in the head and chest and their body is causing the grenade to explode? Maybe I need to go back and do some test games, but last time I checked they were still going THROUGH the enemy.. either way.. theres no way im going to be using a MD that becomes necessary to get a head shot with.. [/quote]
That has been my experience as well last build. I did sneak up behind some enemies and poped them in the pody directly and the round just went through them and landed on the other side. Maybe it's a glitch and sometimes it detonates on contact with a body and sometimes it does not. If that's the case and the glitch is fixed the weapon would be better but I want to point out that ROF is low and shells fly really slow so puting one in the chest is very difficult. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
177
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Posted - 2013.05.11 22:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Still blazn wrote:Failonius wrote:Leave damage as is, increase the radius. MDs should not be doing the killing. Only assisting with it. BS..lol you wouldnt say that if you used a MD
The truth of the matter is that MD should be both. When you want to play support - for example in PI when your corp relies on you and you need coordinated team play with specialization, I think AoE - regular or assault MD are excellent for crowd control. But when you are playing solo in a pub match and just want to hone your skills with MD, you should be able to use Breach MD for direct hits and slaying. It does not have to be either AoE crowd control or direct slaying.
Another point I want to make is that ppl tend to talk about Freedom MD mostly. And of all MD I think Freedom did come close to being OP. In general I against 'win buttons' in FPS. With Freedom you could both slay and crowd control - I think this kind of gameplay probably led CCP to nerf tho whole weapon class. I personally would be ok if they kept the regular MD nerfed but gave a buff to Breach and Assault to emphasize specialization. And if you remember there has always been terrible imbalance between different types of MD - the regular was staple and both assault and Breach were its gimp cousins that no one wanted to touch. So maybe now would be good time to fix this. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
177
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 23:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Good news! Remnant is looking into the Mass Driver:CCP Remnant wrote:
To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance.
One, there appears to be a de-sync between client and server so that (more often than it should) the server and client think the projectile exploded in different places. They're not far off, but enough so that shots you *think* are spot on are off the mark enough to do only minor splash damage. And two, I'm told splash occlusion is getting blocked by a single player character more than it should, contributing to the "randomness" of the damage dealt and the sometimes smudgy feeling of the weapon.
I'm hesitant to rebalance the weapon until we get these issues looked at (which is happening right now).
Thanks for posting this. My hope is renewed. I can live with the new tragectory and re-learning/adjusting to the weapon, so long as there was an actual glitch reason for MD's inefficiency and it was not actually intended to be gimped into oblivion. Now thinking back on it, it makes sense - all the missed direct shots that were so frustrating are just software hiccups.
This does not address the usefulness of the new tragectory that seems to be less effective for long range crowd control but I am willing to work with CCP for a couple of weeks after they fix the glitch and try to get used to how the weapon hands now. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
177
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 23:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:
The truth of the matter is that MD should be both. When you want to play support - for example in PI when your corp relies on you and you need coordinated team play with specialization, I think AoE - regular or assault MD are excellent for crowd control. But when you are playing solo in a pub match and just want to hone your skills with MD, you should be able to use Breach MD for direct hits and slaying. It does not have to be either AoE crowd control or direct slaying.
Another point I want to make is that ppl tend to talk about Freedom MD mostly. And of all MD I think Freedom did come close to being OP. In general I against 'win buttons' in FPS. With Freedom you could both slay and crowd control - I think this kind of gameplay probably led CCP to nerf tho whole weapon class. I personally would be ok if they kept the regular MD nerfed but gave a buff to Breach and Assault to emphasize specialization. And if you remember there has always been terrible imbalance between different types of MD - the regular was staple and both assault and Breach were its gimp cousins that no one wanted to touch. So maybe now would be good time to fix this.
You're missing the big picture here: The MD was both support, and a slayer weapon when it needed to be in public matches. Taking a page out of Keyser's book, judging a weapon based on public matches is counterproductive. The Freedom is a prototype, of course it's going to deal more damage to lower tiered or poorly fitted suits in pubs. But in corp battles, the entire MD line couldn't be used as a slayer weapon when everyone ran higher quality gear. In CBs, it was a support, area denial weapon exclusively and not a slayer. The main problem is that the MD has lost its arcing trajectory, splash radius, and splash damage in exchange focus on the slayer role. Rounds fly straighter and the MD plays like a mid ranged, gimped, low ROF, inferior DPS, AR that just happens to shoot grenades. This change has made the breach more viable, because it's easier to make direct hits, but the whole MD line has taken an unnecessary blow in utility and tactical uses. The lower radius and superficial splash damage stripped away the weapon's intimidating properties that were necessary for scattering bunched up squads, flushing out campers, defending areas, or simply herding the enemy away from a downed teammate. The MD is not the support weapon it once was. If I wanted more kills, I would be using a TAR with stacked damage mods and a modded controller. I hear that's working wonders these days since the blanket 10% damage bonus on weapons. I do agree that the breach needed something to make it more viable. For months, I've been suggesting that it needed a straighter trajectory and/or a significantly faster flying projectile than its brothers to make landing direct hits easier. The entire MD line didn't need to change for this.
Well I think everything is relative. To me it felt that Freedom MD was something like Duvolle AR - an unnecessarily powerful weapon. Sure you could argue the opposite 'if there are weapons like Duvolle in AR world, there is gotta be an MD that's as dominant in the MD world'. But that's just a matter of your view of the game mechanics in Dust in general and not pertinent to MD discussion we are having right now as far as I am concerned. In the ideal world I would like to see that all proto weapons are weaker. Again, it's a matter of opinion and belongs in a different thread.
Also I don't think I am arguing against your point at all. I say that different version of MD are for different things. I believe that the balance should be such that depending on your play style you should be able to as effectively use the regular MD for crowd control and Breach for slaying - the game is not suffering from having both, so long as they are not coming from a single weapon. As far as MD being gimped too much - I am glad CCP issued a statement that the game code for MD was broken accounting for its weakness in games. It seems to me CCP is promising that MD is actually balanced and that they will work first on fixing the code and second on adjusting stats if MD is still weak after the code is fixed. Maybe with the code fixed MD would regain its crown control ability - I know the stats argue against it but I am still hopeful.
Third point: I think giving reg MD and breach different tragectories would be a mistake. It would be very hard to adjust from switching back and forth. A faster traveling round for breach - yes definitely. I would also say go back to 4 round drup for Breach but increase ROF since in CQC you would want to hit high burst damage rather than sustain steady DPS for longer. |
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Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
179
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Posted - 2013.05.12 06:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:There's a nice discussion going on here so I hate to interrupt, but what I'm finding with the Freedom is a lack of consistency. Some matches I do well and others I feel like launching my controller through the TV.
There are times when dudes are down to nothing and they are still charging me. I'm putting them at their feet and it does nothing. I end up running out of ammo and having to run or die.
I've tried being much more careful, but I'm having to spam so many rounds its eating up my nano hives.
In the last build there were people always saying, that shot was badass. Now It's dumb luck if I kill anybody beyond 10 or 20 meters.
I really can't believe they haven't even commented on the nerf to the MD.
Overall it's making me a poor team player. As a logi the inability to consistently hit targets is effecting my logi work. I go into an "I'm gonna get you sucka" mode. Maybe I just suck, but there seems to be a inconsistency with the splash radius. Skilled up it should be around 10 feet for the Freedom. Nobody can suck bad enough to miss somebody with no HP left standing right in front of them.
I'll be on later tonight to test it out further on you SOBs. Take it easy on me, it seems like I'm lobbing non lethal rounds.
I think that obvious inconsistency in damage comes from the glitch MD got from Uprising that the dev posted about. They called it MD 'feeling smudgy' or something like that and it comes from the fact that client animations for MD explosions and the actual explosions that are taking place on the server are disconnected - e.g. you think your MD shell landed at their feet but it actually is somewhere else because of server lag or glitch or poor sync with your client (call it whatever you want I don't understand the actual computer science behind it). So basically inconsistency in MD damage right now is probably result of this glitch. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
203
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Posted - 2013.05.27 01:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
LMAO i forgot about this thread. I think it's plain enough CCP does not fix things when asked to. They only deigned to communicate with the player base right at the beginning of uprising when ppl were rage quitting. Right now as they get their 7K plus players on the server on weekends and got a s teady cash flow, they are too busy counting money to worry about fixing things. |
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