Is killing a sniper fun?

I'm glad you are all enjoying the services we snipers are providing for you. It's a dirty job really, but someone's gotta do it.

Is getting to him and being murdered by 5 snipers on that hill who have perfect view of you climbing fun?

Or at range where he only has his barely visible pixel sized head out but can see the whole of you very clearly?

Solution: Learn the maps, learn the sight lines, avoid the snipers line of sight. Always works for me.

Funny thing about snipers (this is coming from someone who primarily plays a logi), If they're stationary (which most snipers are) or kinda stay in the same area (which most snipers do) they will only have lines of sight to certain areas.

Solution: Learn the maps, learn the sight lines, avoid the snipers line of sight. Always works for me.

Is killing a sniper fun?

This a thousand times... even more at the line of sight, if you're out in the open without a hill, a rock or something to cover and a Sniper is shooting at you... then you just deserve to die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

So, is being sniped by someone who is behind high cliffs kilometers away with only his pixel sized head visible fun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

So, is being sniped by someone who is behind high cliffs kilometers away with only his pixel sized head visible fun?

I completely believe you when you say you don't play a sniper. Sniper vantage points on most maps allow you to see huge areas at a time. When a sniper is able to shoot anything in a given third of the map, and can shoot the rest of the map if he repositions himself by walking a few metres, what exactly is the sight line you're avoiding? You could hide behind a box all game, but that only protects you from one side, and is probably not very fun.

The bottom line is that sniping is incredibly powerful, incredibly easy to do, places snipers in very little risk if they have a brain, and there is, realistically, nothing you can do as an infantry person other than ensuring you remain constantly in motion. Sniping is not fun to deal with as an infantry guy, as as the video points out, it adds nothing to the game other than causing you to randomly take damage or die with no recourse.



Not really. You just walk up to them and shoot them and they die without a fight. Maybe they spam grenades before you drop them, but they're dead. It isn't a challenge to kill them and is only satisfying because snipers are annoying. Much of the time snipers are so far away from you, and in difficult terrain, and safely protected by their own team, that killing the sniper in a method other than through sniping them yourself is unrealistic.



90% of the maps are open terrain. If you want to attack an objective, you need to cross open terrain. Using your logic, only the people hiding in the MCC are the ones who don't "deserve" to die to snipers. Boy, that surely sounds like a fun game to me, the one where you never move out of cover so that you don't get sniped.

Is killing a sniper fun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

So, is being sniped by someone who is behind high cliffs kilometers away with only his pixel sized head visible fun?

Great video. Snipers always seem to me to detract from the game. They're fun for no-one but the sniper. Sure, it's satisfying to waste your time hunting them for a few minutes and kill them from behind while they're not expecting it...but you've wasted all that time to get one kill, and it's only because they've been annoying you so much.

Snipers just don't make the game fun for anyone but themselves.

You're running along, all alone, and then suddenly you're dead. Great.

It's not that snipers are OP, or can't be killed. It's just the simple fact that they don't make the game more fun (except for the sniper).

It is fun when you sneak up behind them and kill them.

I have not done it myself, but it seems fun to the other sniper who counter snipes him. Buddy of mine has gotten a kill at over 700m before. Funny thing is some snipers think you can't kill that far. I know they are wrong.

Players should be forced of their own redline, after a certain amount of time.

Sniping from for within the safety of the redline, revokes the mancard of said sniper. Just saying...

Now you're being a drama queen. If a team is able to put five snipers in five different locations each watching over eachother, and not miraculously get killed in CQC, then that team is GOOD! I think you're just cranky because you died from a sniper, you can't snipe, so you got counter-counter sniped, and when you tried to sneak up on one you were ignorant enough to other snipers.

Snipers snipe from a long distance away, that's how it works. You just want the damn nerf hammer.

I walk behind enemy snipers all the time and get away with it. You're just pushing theoretical scenarios that happen so little in order to create a seemingly unbalance of snipers.

Even your little video is in support of me. Snipers add a new force on the field, something players must be aware of and adapt their strategies accordingly. Snipers open up limitless tactical opportunities that players can engage in. Just turned your video against you.

Good argument.

Just about every gun type is trying to kill you, and trying to make it fun for themselves. You could be running along and a forge gun gets you, a grenade gets you, a laser gets you, an HMG mows you down... none of those things tend to be fun for the victim.

Your solution? Stop being the victim.

Actually, they have all been hiding in the same spot, where they have perfect view of the map but not even snipers can get them.

So there is this thing called an LAV. Also dropships and tanks. Another issue is hlaf of the map pool is down. There are many maps with large indoor areas. But don't forget snipers will always be good in the right hands. A good sniper is a good sniper. Sorry they always land a shot. Now the game shifts to tactics. Deploy heavy snipers as counter snipers. Bring in dropships, or lav rush to thier location. Have someone sneak up on him he's in his scope. How to people deal with snipers in real life? Sometimes they find the sniper and send rockets at the building to kill him. Have you tried using the forge gun as a weapon to kill snipers? You have no idea the joy you are missing out on.

I always laugh when people suggest using vehicles to counter snipers as if that means there isn't a problem. Sniper rifle costs 5k ISK or something minor like that. You can go out in a militia suit and a 5k rifle and two-shot most people from across the map. The "solution" isn't to bring in a vehicle worth tens of thousands of ISK and charge them down, as if killing them once will solve the problem. The solution is to make sniper rifles have power in-line with their cost, and in-line with their difficulty of use.

And I spent the past two builds as a sniper. I had a KDR of around 14 and thousands of kills across both builds. I know what works on snipers and what doesn't. I'm not missing out on anything. Bar none the only reliable way to deal with snipers is to counter-snipe them. And even though I've tried to stick to non-sniper weapons this build exclusively, sometimes I find myself having to resort to overpowered sniping to deal with overpowered snipers. Not very fun.

If there is a nest of annoying snipers, a precision strike works. And it doesn't matter how fast they can run although most likely they are still scoped when it rains.

I always laugh when people suggest using vehicles to counter snipers as if that means there isn't a problem. Sniper rifle costs 5k ISK or something minor like that. You can go out in a militia suit and a 5k rifle and two-shot most people from across the map. The "solution" isn't to bring in a vehicle worth tens of thousands of ISK and charge them down, as if killing them once will solve the problem. The solution is to make sniper rifles have power in-line with their cost, and in-line with their difficulty of use.

And I spent the past two builds as a sniper. I had a KDR of around 14 and thousands of kills across both builds. I know what works on snipers and what doesn't. I'm not missing out on anything. Bar none the only reliable way to deal with snipers is to counter-snipe them. And even though I've tried to stick to non-sniper weapons this build exclusively, sometimes I find myself having to resort to overpowered sniping to deal with overpowered snipers. Not very fun.

Ok well when I run you over in my dropship you can keep pretends It's not a viable counter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

So, is being sniped by someone who is behind high cliffs kilometers away with only his pixel sized head visible fun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

So, is being sniped by someone who is behind high cliffs kilometers away with only his pixel sized head visible fun?

Great video. Snipers always seem to me to detract from the game. They're fun for no-one but the sniper. Sure, it's satisfying to waste your time hunting them for a few minutes and kill them from behind while they're not expecting it...but you've wasted all that time to get one kill, and it's only because they've been annoying you so much.

Snipers just don't make the game fun for anyone but themselves.

You're running along, all alone, and then suddenly you're dead. Great.

It's not that snipers are OP, or can't be killed. It's just the simple fact that they don't make the game more fun (except for the sniper).

I have never been killed by a dropship crashing into me as a sniper. Seems like an awfully expensive way to buy yourself 2 minutes without one sniper killing your guys. If you are serious about countering snipers, as I said, the only reliable method is through sniping yourself. As an added pro tip, if you use a sniper rifle and move about the battlefield as a regular infantry guy might, rather than staying way in the back or flanks like most snipers do, you can often catch enemy snipers unawares, as they won't realize the guy running around down there isn't a harmless AR-packing grunt, but in fact an enemy sniper.

Note that this is a bit dicey a tactic as you're obviously vulnerable to enemy infantry whilst doing it, but if you can do it properly you can get several kills on enemy snipers without being a tool and crashing a 50k ISK vehicle into them.

yes





you know .. that is one of the roles of a sniper .. to distract and to waste your time.
The more time you waste hunting them down, or hiding for cover the longer the snipper's team has to fulfill their objective.

And for the aspect of "It's just the simple fact that they don't make the game more fun" snipping my not be fun for you, but for others it is..
iam sorry to say, the game or the world doesnt revolve around you or what you deem is "fun" *sorry if this seems harsh but iam getting sick off people whining just for the sake of whining, and iam getting in a pissy mood over it.

iam sorry to say, the game or the world doesnt revolve around you or what you deem is "fun" *sorry if this seems harsh but iam getting sick off people whining just for the sake of whining, and iam getting in a pissy mood over it.

Why would my dropship die while squishing you?

I'm not a sniper, but my girlfriend is.

Bad snipers = easy targets.
Good snipers = valuable targets.

And if a team's snipers are destroying your team, then they're doing their jobs, and your team isn't countering them effectively.

you know .. that is one of the roles of a sniper .. to distract and to waste your time.
The more time you waste hunting them down, or hiding for cover the longer the snipper's team has to fulfill their objective.

And for the aspect of "It's just the simple fact that they don't make the game more fun" snipping my not be fun for you, but for others it is..
iam sorry to say, the game or the world doesnt revolve around you or what you deem is "fun" *sorry if this seems harsh but iam getting sick off people whining just for the sake of whining, and iam getting in a pissy mood over it.

it wasnt fully directed at you
just sick of the whining,
i dont like driving tanks but iam not whining about them running me over

differant ppl have differant play styles
and the way the whining is atm *not just snippers but on all aspects were going to be running around with bubble guns

Snipers are pretty okay in Dust at the moment (January 2013)

Things to tune:
- Add ballistic/travel time to bullets in order to make hitting farther and farther more and more difficult (small tune-up to damage to balance usability).
That would make the shots more rewarding and would emphasize player skill in longshots.
Also as a bonus, this would make redline sniping less tempting as the range from safe area tends to be long (unless redlined, but thats okay then)

- Fix the remaining hitdetection issues to get rid of the bugged advantage of high positions. Also aids snipers so they won't be affected by that LOS yes but barrel clipping -problem

I dislike this suggestion, as it makes sniping more luck based (depending on enemy dodge pattern and movement). The games, where sniping works on a high level play, all employ instant bullet flight. Sniping is fairly balanced currently, based on the maps: a good offensive player on a tight map makes about the same difference as a good sniper on a large, open map. This is just IMHO.

Counter-strike had a good approach to sniping as well as q1 tf. Battlefield series is a good example of how bullet flight makes sniping useless in high level play. Planetside 2 sniping is very situational and mostly meaningless as well.

This all goes for skirmish, btw. In the tight ambush maps delayed sniping could work as well. Snipers are now a working field control asset because of the long range capability. Reducing the range capability would make them tactical units like the rest.

I dislike this suggestion, as it makes sniping more luck based (depending on enemy dodge pattern and movement). The games, where sniping works on a high level play, all employ instant bullet flight. Sniping is fairly balanced currently, based on the maps: a good offensive player on a tight map makes about the same difference as a good sniper on a large, open map. This is just IMHO.

Counter-strike had a good approach to sniping as well as q1 tf. Battlefield series is a good example of how bullet flight makes sniping useless in high level play. Planetside 2 sniping is very situational and mostly meaningless as well.

This all goes for skirmish, btw. In the tight ambush maps delayed sniping could work as well. Snipers are now a working field control asset because of the long range capability. Reducing the range capability would make them tactical units like the rest.

Non of the counter strike maps (The original ones, not the community made ones) give snipers a range where only they can see the enemy, so it balanced out.
You had a very powerful weapon, but miss a shot and an assault rifle will gun you down.
So comparing it to CS is dumb, and I'm saying it as a past CS player.

Snipers are pretty okay in Dust at the moment (January 2013)

Things to tune:
- Add ballistic/travel time to bullets in order to make hitting farther and farther more and more difficult (small tune-up to damage to balance usability).
That would make the shots more rewarding and would emphasize player skill in longshots.
Also as a bonus, this would make redline sniping less tempting as the range from safe area tends to be long (unless redlined, but thats okay then)

- Fix the remaining hitdetection issues to get rid of the bugged advantage of high positions. Also aids snipers so they won't be affected by that LOS yes but barrel clipping -problem

Realistically, the best solution I've heard to this is nerfing the rewards for actions initiated behind the redline.

And if a team's snipers are destroying your team, then they're doing their jobs, and your team isn't countering them effectively.

Planetside 2 sniping is very situational and mostly meaningless as well.

This wouldn't solve anything. If the enemy is behind the redline or 1 cm away from the red line, how much more likely are you to be able to kill them? Moving snipers onto the actual battlefield and off the mountains way off to the side or behind the lines can be done, as the other guy said, through making sniping take skill, and making long shots harder than close shots.

The game should not ever revolve around snipers. The fact that the "job" of a sniper can ever be to cause the amount of damage they can is evidence of the fact that they're not in-line with other methods of playing. The fact that I, as a sniper, can kill 4 or 5 people as they move from one objective to another and necessarily cross open ground to get there is absurd.

Planetside 2 is exactly where Dust needs to be, and the fact that most snipers can't accept that only illuminates the kind of sense of entitlement sniper players currently have. Sniping is by far the safest, most powerful, least demanding way to play this game. Its power is unmatched, the ease of use for sniper rifles is unmatched, and the ISK/SP required to be dominant is minimal. Even a militia sniper rifle with militia everything else will allow a totally new player to two-shot people from across the map. Any sniper who knows what they're doing can shut down entire avenues of approach, all on their own, with nothing the enemy can realistically hope to do aside from something suicidal which may buy them a minute of reprieve at best. That is unacceptable. Dust will never gain the kind of traction it needs to so long as ****** methods of play like spamming grenades or being a sniper remain as imbalanced as they are.

Boo hoo hoo. Mommy, I got shot whilst playing an FPS. Thats not fair!

Are you sure you're playing the right genre?

I have never had trouble countersniping anyone who was not behind the redline. Even there I can usually do so effectively, although I was better before the reset- I'm still training my skills back up.

Behind the redline, though, they are sometimes so far away that it is nigh impossible to find them. Bring them into the main battlefield and chances are that someone on your team will look at them, even inadvertently, and blow their cover.

You write as if this game should revolve around Assaults with ARs running straight up to people and gunning away. Maybe that's not what you mean, but that's how this comes across.

Snipers ARE supposed to be able to kill 4 or 5 people running through the open when their teamwork sucks.

Someone on that team should be countersniping. Someone should be communicating (I just got nailed by a sniper on my left as I headed towards Objective A from B.).

Grenade spamming? Again with the "running up to things with an AR" issue. Sure, I do it too, but I at least know I'm being dumb when I do.

Grenade spamming is not a bug, it is exactly what should happen to players who want to run straight up while blazing away.

I think bullets/nades/etc. are OP!

I demand a hotfix!

It should revolve around the people who are actually on the ground, in the middle of the fight, engaging people and themselves being engaged. Infantry of any weapon type or dropsuit type, vehicles, and so on. Snipers are not active participants in the game. They are alone, not interacting with anyone in a meaningful way, and are only apparent to themselves via counter-sniping, and to the people whom they shoot and injure/kill at random periods. As the OP's video points out, they aren't creating any fun gameplay themselves.

They aren't "supposed" to do anything. All they should be doing is what makes gameplay fun. Four people in a squad hitting an objective, getting killed in seconds by one person when they person gets a bit lucky and doesn't miss any shots, with no way to defend themselves against that person, is not fun gameplay.

I assume all you do is snipe considering your defence of snipers in total disregard of logic, so you should know that "someone should be counter-sniping" is a meaningless statement. There could be 10 people on the enemy team counter-sniping for that one squad advancing, but some sniper vantage points are totally safe from enemy snipers unless those snipers are in specific areas, relatively far afield.

So that would be a yes, you think the game revolves around Assaults. Okay.

Um... I'm not here to make your gameplay "fun". I'm playing to challenge your ability and have you challenge mine. By that, I'm talking not just about run-and-gun, but tactics, teamwork, stealth, all of the above and more.

No, actually I spend about two-thirds of my time running logistics, scout, and swarm.

The difference here is that I don't QQ about it- I suit up as a sniper and take them out.

The difference here is that I don't QQ about it- I suit up as a sniper and take them out. If I can't find them and take them out, it's either because they're good (even then I usually get them after a few mistakes) or because they are playing the redline for all it's worth. I have yet to encounter a totally safe sniper vantage point that is not behind the redline.

omg i see post about this all the time its simpel counter snipe and if you cant do that get a lav and drive too somewhere near them get out and kill them these are thing you can do.

This just isn't the point. It doesn't matter if you can get them. It doesn't matter if they are or are not OP. The point is that snipers are no fun in the game for anyone but themselves. I don't mind dying in an assault fight, or against most any other weapon, even grenade or tank (at least, current tanks - tanks a couple of builds back or whenever were just plain annoying). It's all part of the battle, and I can learn the weaknesses of the role I'm playing and try to maximise my chances of surviving by playing smart.

But snipers can't be spotted with any kind of ease. You're running along, and then you're dead. Sometimes you have to cross that open space.

Maybe you'll notice the direction the damage came from. So what can you do if you want to stop it? You *have* to suit up as a sniper and shut them down for a minute, or *have* to run up behind them and kill them - take precious minutes out of your game fighting for objectives, to get a minute of reprieve. They're just plain annoying, and not fun. After an assault rifle fight you might think, "yeah, he outplayed me". After a sniper rifle death you'll never think that. You'll just think, "Hey, I was alive, and now I'm dead. Yay!"

Where's the fun? Oh right. For the sniper.

This just isn't the point. It doesn't matter if you can get them. It doesn't matter if they are or are not OP. The point is that snipers are no fun in the game for anyone but themselves. I don't mind dying in an assault fight, or against most any other weapon, even grenade or tank (at least, current tanks - tanks a couple of builds back or whenever were just plain annoying).

[quote=Winsaucerer]If anyone has played World Of Tanks, the same 'issues' are said about artillery there too. However, the more you play the more you will understand that avoiding snipers isn't that hard.

I enjoy complex, multifaceted games that require me to constantly change what I'm doing. I like Dust pretty much the way it is. I plan to keep playing it unless they try to make it too much like most other FPS games.

I'm in Dust for a larger, complicated, full battlefield game. That includes snipers as part of the mix.

I don't go posting about how Precision Strikes are overpowered and how only unskilled players use them. I'm not posting threads asking CCP to nerf HAVs because I can't kill them with an AR. After all, why should someone have to clone up in an AV fitting that takes away from their ability to engage in a run-and-gun squad fight?

I enjoy complex, multifaceted games that require me to constantly change what I'm doing.

sniping isn't unbalanced at all

The role of a sniper first is info for squad, second keeping squad mates alive, third watching objectives, and finally getting your kills. A good sniper works for the team not for the k/d. If you understand the maps well enough and have good teamwork no single sniper can cause you too much trouble and if they do it is worth the ob.

I still disagree and am just as unlikely to change my viewpoint as you are.

Take a look at EVE- "Disco Domis" and other "suicide ganking" techniques annoy the HOLY SNOT out of a lot of players.

CCP should take notes from BF3.

[quote=ArMaGeDoN The Cat]As a result, shooting people in that game as a sniper required anticipating their movement, to put the reticule in the right spot and have them run to it, as well as the travel time of the bullet you fired. What's more, no hits were one-shot-kills on infantry. And the gun was a single shot thing that required a reload every time. Sniping therefore became a support weapon that'd help suppress/soften up enemy infantry, rather than a gun that people could use to wipe out the enemy team from across the map.

That's much more along the lines of how sniping should be in Dust. Require skill, provide far fewer kills than it does currently, and be more about suppression and supporting your infantry than about annihilating entire groups of enemies without breaking a sweat.

I do not agree with this at all. By nature a sniper rifle should be a one hit one kill weapon. They are high powered rifles, that their only purpose is to kill someone from a great distance. I always had a problem with games where the sniper rifles weren't on hit one kill. If I shoot you in the leg with a 50 caliber sniper rifle, how long do you think it'd take you to bleed out? Not very long truthfully.

There is no "should be". It's a game. The only "should be" is that it should be fun. Being one-hit-killed from 500 m wouldn't be fun. I know, because a couple builds ago it was easy to do just that as a sniper against most non-heavies with simple body shots. That is not good gameplay, and any attempt at realistic justification you may try is totally irrelevant.

I still disagree and am just as unlikely to change my viewpoint as you are.

I suspect that CCP agrees that snipers, annoying as they are, are part of the game.

We've established that we are looking for different things in the game. Clearly, here are other people who disagree with you.

It's time to let this thread die.

Take a look at EVE- "Disco Domis" and other "suicide ganking" techniques annoy the HOLY SNOT out of a lot of players. It is not unheard of for miners in high-security space to lose ships worth several hundred million ISK to a ship that cost less than a single hundred million. Until recently, it was even possible for the suicide ganker to get most of their loss reimbursed by insurance.

CCP's sole concession, after YEARS of QQ, was to stop giving insurance reimbursements.

You continue to argue as if your definition of "fun", is, well... definitive.

You probably mean to use the word "subjective", not "definitive". If it were a definitive definition, you wouldn't be suggesting I'm wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

One of my main jobs in previous builds was to sneak up behind the Snipers and maul them to death with my AR (meele ftw) I still love to do that because they are so focused in shooting that there's no need to waste bullets on them (unless he/she already spotted you or if you're dealing with a Sniper with a Logi or Heavy Dropsuits, yes they exist) also I have experience with snipers against my Laser Rifle, of course they will always win in range but Sniperbro... dude, if you're in the optimal range of my LR run from me, don't stand right were you are shooting at me because you're not going to win... YES, there are Snipers like that and I just teach them the lesson "Dude, go to high ground and kill me, don't you CQC (unless he/she has a pistol or SMG) or try quickscope me with your rifle because you're gonna fail" I'm affraid we're going to see a lot of Snipers like that in the Open Beta...



This a thousand times... even more at the line of sight, if you're out in the open without a hill, a rock or something to cover and a Sniper is shooting at you... then you just deserve to die.

OH and anyone saying i'm just getting free kills why not acturally try sniping and see how well you do cause while it may be easy for me since I snipe in just about every fps game I play but there are many I have watched who could take like 10 shots and maybe hit the guy once and if you sneak up on me and kill me then good for you as I don't care about my warpoints or those so called free kills as my k/d means nothing to me I snipe for the pure sport of sniping and no one can tell me any different

I sniped all through Precursor and for about a week during Codex. In Precursor I had a couple thousand kills and 10.something KDR, and in Codex I had a few hundred kills and 13.89 KDR. You can try and act like KDR means nothing, but snipers are about the only role in the game where KDR is a useful metric for determining skill. So don't try and act as if you have some kind of authority on sniping unique to yourself.

That said, you are getting free kills for no effort.

Playing as a solo sniper versus playing as solo infantry now, I spend more on my equipment as infantry, I get fewer kills, and while I'll get more WP because I'll revive/hack as I go along, I do so while having a much greater challenge in front of me. Snipers shooting me, enemy infantry of all types, LAVs trying to run me over, turrets shooting me, grenade spam every game... it's pretty undeniable that infantry is a lot more difficult and has less of a pay-off.

Why should one of the safest roles in the game also be the most powerful, while requiring the least SP and being as hard as putting a dot on a target and pulling a trigger a couple times?

I sniped all through Precursor and for about a week during Codex. In Precursor I had a couple thousand kills and 10.something KDR, and in Codex I had a few hundred kills and 13.89 KDR. You can try and act like KDR means nothing, but snipers are about the only role in the game where KDR is a useful metric for determining skill. So don't try and act as if you have some kind of authority on sniping unique to yourself.

That said, you are getting free kills for no effort.

Playing as a solo sniper versus playing as solo infantry now, I spend more on my equipment as infantry, I get fewer kills, and while I'll get more WP because I'll revive/hack as I go along, I do so while having a much greater challenge in front of me. Snipers shooting me, enemy infantry of all types, LAVs trying to run me over, turrets shooting me, grenade spam every game... it's pretty undeniable that infantry is a lot more difficult and has less of a pay-off.

Why should one of the safest roles in the game also be the most powerful, while requiring the least SP and being as hard as putting a dot on a target and pulling a trigger a couple times?

KDR is as useful of a measurement of a sniper's skill as it is for anyone else. Bottom line is you can't use it since you don't know who is maintaining a high kdr while being useful and who is just padding with 10 kills per match. In a previous build I knew a sniper who had a KDR over 50, well over 1000 kills, and made 8-900 meter kills on plenty of occasions. I'm not saying he was a bad sniper at all but in many instances he would camp the same spot of the map for 3-10 kills per match. KDR is only useful to measure the progression of yourself, but in the long run it's too easy to get a high KDR while being useless for it to be a used to compare one player to another.

and it would seem you don't grasp you can kill me 100 times in a skirmish and I'm still gonna laugh as I don't care if you had a 100.0 kdr I snipe for the sport of sniping meaning I ain't sniping because I think it is hard I'm sniping because I find it fun so where ever your logic on what I said came from you can keep it to yourself

For me, sniping is the way I can be the most successful, and economical soldier possible, while at the same time helping my team as much as I can. The way I see it, my role is to deplete the enemy's clone supply, and cover whatever objectives I can. Plus I keep enemy snipers off my team by being constantly aware of common sniping spots.

If you're being sniped a lot, it is entirely your own fault. The majority of the kills I get are from enemy players making mistakes. The good players are the ones I almost never see, because they know the sightlines, and they never stay still. And don't think you're safe because your in an lav or dropship, I've sniped people out of both

When you put your reticule over a target you make it show up for your allies. There's your squad info. Killing the target keeps your allies alive, defends objectives that enemy might otherwise have taken, and gets you a kill. Seriously though, do you just kind of sit there and talk to people as a sniper primarily? Maybe I'm just weird, but I always tended to consider shooting people with a sniper rifle to be the role of a sniper.

There is no "should be". It's a game. The only "should be" is that it should be fun. Being one-hit-killed from 500 m wouldn't be fun. I know, because a couple builds ago it was easy to do just that as a sniper against most non-heavies with simple body shots. That is not good gameplay, and any attempt at realistic justification you may try is totally irrelevant.

I would think that's fun, so should that be implemented because we do not care about reality only fun?

In either case I didn't mention it to compare ***** sizes.

KDR isn't perfect but it's fairly good. The only real issue is that a supremely cautious sniper who only gets a couple kills a game and yet hardly ever dies might be indistinguishable from a more bold and talented sniper, who gets 20 kills a game but also between 1 and 2 deaths.

In either case I didn't mention it to compare ***** sizes. I don't care about what anyone's sniper stats are, because it's a hitscan gun which kills in ~2 hits from across the map. Excelling at uncomplicated tasks is generally not something noteworthy. Although I have no idea who you might be referring to with a KDR of 50. I didn't start paying attention to KDR until Precursor, when I set out to demonstrate how broken sniping is, and I didn't see anyone with a legitimate KDR that high. I guess he stopped playing sniper sometime during the summer.

My only point is that nobody here is in any great position of authority over the others. There have been a few fools attempting to patronize the rest of us, telling us we need to play sniper sometime to learn how to counter them, or acting as if sniping is some truly complicated endeavour and that we just don't understand it. It's total rubbish. Sniping is a braindead activity, and I have enough experience as a sniper to say that with a certainty. The people acting as if it's such a deep role and we just don't understand it are either fooling themselves or attempting to fool us.



Whatever the reason you snipe for, you're not any better at it than I am, and you aren't in a position to tell why this is thus, and what the reason for this thusness is, in regard to sniping.

I sniped all through Precursor and for about a week during Codex. In Precursor I had a couple thousand kills and 10.something KDR, and in Codex I had a few hundred kills and 13.89 KDR. You can try and act like KDR means nothing, but snipers are about the only role in the game where KDR is a useful metric for determining skill. So don't try and act as if you have some kind of authority on sniping unique to yourself.

That said, you are getting free kills for no effort.

Playing as a solo sniper versus playing as solo infantry now, I spend more on my equipment as infantry, I get fewer kills, and while I'll get more WP because I'll revive/hack as I go along, I do so while having a much greater challenge in front of me. Snipers shooting me, enemy infantry of all types, LAVs trying to run me over, turrets shooting me, grenade spam every game... it's pretty undeniable that infantry is a lot more difficult and has less of a pay-off.

Why should one of the safest roles in the game also be the most powerful, while requiring the least SP and being as hard as putting a dot on a target and pulling a trigger a couple times?

Simply because a sniper is not contributing to the objectives game in any other way than killing enemies to deter them from playing efficiently. If the main purpose of a sniper is to kill, therifle has to be damn overpowered at it. Otherwise any other role would be more important for the team.

just playing devils advocate here but... If your solution to snipers is "snipe them back" or "counter-snipe them" then doesn't that just prove that snipers ARE op in the same way people claiming you could counter tanks by calling in tanks of your own proved tanks were op a couple builds ago?

since when did I say anything about being better than you I pointed out that some snipers can't aim and as far as I can tell I didn't point fingers at anyone nor did I say I was better but hell if you want to live in this delusion and argue with me I will be more than happy to argue with you all day

People have to keep in mind with all these ballistic revisions that:

THIS IS A SCI-FI FPS

Sci-fi spits in the face of realism. Sniper rifles in the future can fire from miles away, assault rifles fire massive rounds that would in real life knock the person holding the gun flying but thanks to research in the sci-fi universe of EVE has just about the same recoil as real life assault rifles.

Our weapons are meant to overpowered to negate the protection of our drop suits which are also ridiculously tough.

If anything I think our weapons sound and feel like pea shooters instead of freaking arm cannons!

Is getting to him and being murdered by 5 snipers on that hill who have perfect view of you climbing fun?

Or at range where he only has his barely visible pixel sized head out but can see the whole of you very clearly?

Omg another stale thread about the same damn thing. I lost count. My popcorn got stale. And this one is a few pages long. Don't you guys get bored kicking this ball back and forth until it breaks?

If there are 5 Snipers on the hill, then there are less 5 players attempting to control points on the field, and you will win anyway. If it is ambush, then it really doesn't matter.

I'm not going to stop talking about sniper rifles until CCP decides to fix them. It's painfully obvious that they need to be totally reworked. I'm reminded of it every time I play Planetside 2, and use a sniper rifle that is actually designed to demand skill out of its user.



Most games there are ~5 snipers on both teams.

I hate to be the one to say this, but if you're constantly getting killed by snipers have you ever considered, you know, changing the way you play? Snipers are not OP. Snipers are extremely weak in any form of cqc and increasingly vulnerable at a medium range. That's the way it should be. At long range, snipers are at their strongest. At the risk of pointing out the obvious; the further away a sniper gets from the target, the smaller the target gets. This makes it very easy to avoid being sniped (especially if you know you're being targetted) by moving in an erratic and unpredictable manner, and increasingly difficult to hit a target. Have you ever tried sniping a target with an unpredictable movement pattern? It takes luck or a lot of skill to do consistently; a hell of a lot more than pointing and shooting with an AR. If you're standing still, you have nothing to complain about.

Is this in ambush or something? Ive never seen an objective without plenty of cover. If my team has 4 snipers its pretty much guaranteed were gonna get steamrolled, unless the other team is crippled too. Team death match is just a bunch of random crap with no strategy, snipers will always do well when only K/D matters.


Im learning the game and trying to get used to a mouse again. I die alot, but rarely to snipers.

I hate to be the one to say this, but if you're constantly getting killed by snipers have you ever considered, you know, changing the way you play?

You can get pretty similar KDR to tank users as a sniper, except you can run a militia sniper setup for free, while tanks cost at least 100k at their crappiest.

Gee whiz, what a brilliant idea. If only I'd have thought of "l2p nub" first!

My comments are not based on me frequently dying to snipers. I don't often die to snipers. I get wounded by snipers fairly often, but not killed. My opinion on snipers is, instead, based on my extensive experience as a sniper. I know how powerful, how little skill is required, and how safe being a sniper is. These factors don't add up. There's supposed to be a certain arithmetic to this stuff. A gun as powerful and easy to use as sniping should have some serious negatives. It doesn't. That's a problem.

But thanks for the amazing insight and brilliant tips on how to play this game, anyway. I'm sure all the people who've never played a video game before in their lives found your pro tips very educational.

Gee whiz, what a brilliant idea. If only I'd have thought of "l2p nub" first!

My comments are not based on me frequently dying to snipers. I don't often die to snipers. I get wounded by snipers fairly often, but not killed. My opinion on snipers is, instead, based on my extensive experience as a sniper. I know how powerful, how little skill is required, and how safe being a sniper is. These factors don't add up. There's supposed to be a certain arithmetic to this stuff. A gun as powerful and easy to use as sniping should have some serious negatives. It doesn't. That's a problem.

But thanks for the amazing insight and brilliant tips on how to play this game, anyway. I'm sure all the people who've never played a video game before in their lives found your pro tips very educational.

So basically your argument is "omg snipers are taking away my precious shieldz plz nerf"? I don't understand.

what's the problem? If you're not getting killed, how does that make sniping easy mode? I think its been covered quite elaborately in this thread that the value of a sniper doesn't come from their KDR, but communication and ability to deny an area to the enemy. Now i'm not 100% sure about this, but if you were hiding in the hills hundreds of meters away, crouching or lying down with a sniper rifle, wouldn't you expect to be reasonably "safe"? you're not visible and you're detached from the battle. of course you would.
No serious negatives? is that a joke? I don't know if you've noticed but have you tried using a sniper rifle at close/short-medium range? probability of a kill plummets while the probability of being killed sky rockets. qualifies as a "serious negative" to me. There are also visual cues giving away position, coupled with the fact that theres only 1 or 2 maps in which sniping can be done effectively without concern for other classes. I have spent a lot of time as a sniper, and a lot of time hunting snipers. *obviously* the threat of a sniper is determined by the skill of the person using it; Its a game mechanic easily adjusted for and I know I never worry about noobs wielding it.

But otherwise, cheers for the condescending and brattish response to my otherwise reasonable reply!

really. a thread about sniper rifles being OP? you're probably high

I think all these threads crying about other classes proves one thing.







The game.is balanced, every class is hated in equal measure,.it.has to be pretty balanced for that to happen.

Imo. The main weakness of a sniper is that they all need distance for long-term survival. With distance comes getting away from the frontline or a major objective as these areas are prone to flash assaults. Since the sniper is so far away all they can do is snipe, feed intel, and wait out a battle. If the battle really gets thick and the objective is about to be taken or the enemy team is pushing your team back with aggressive force, the sniper has low capabilities as they can't directly get into the frontline and help push the enemy back or help retake an objective.

I don't understand. what's the problem? If you're not getting killed, how does that make sniping easy mode?

You are having trouble comprehending what he is saying so I'll try to give it a go. As you said sniping from the hill top is reasonably "safe". The problem is there are no drawbacks to that safety you point and click just as you would at any range to the same effectiveness. There is no skill or risk involved what so ever to this method and I agree with him that it does not add up. Why should it be possible to avoid the risk other ground troops experience for less isk and without any downside. Are you beginning to understand.

Sniping is "easy mode" because it's very easy to snipe. Happy to help.

GÇ£I've learned nothing about friendship this week. In fact, my so called friend, "The Heavy" keeps taking all the medkits. He's not even that injured and I'm right there, ignited in flames, about to become a freaking cooked steak! If anyone should be sent to the moon, it would be him. I must leave now, there's a Blue Scout in the target range just waiting for one of my bullets to hit his skull.GÇ¥

~TF2 Sniper

Oh dear. I understood what he was saying you arrogant ****. MY point was that regardless of how good a snipers KDR is they are not "useful" and have trouble affecting the outcome of a match unless they are contributing to team goals i.e. overwatch of objectives, communicating enemy movements or generally providing specific area denial. This is a drawback of the class as it does not engage in combat the same way an assault or heavy class does (generally to push, capture or defend points by nature), and is very open to be used counter-productively. There is always some form of risk to a sniper, regardless of how relatively "safe" it is. If other snipers aren't hunting for you, then either you're not doing a very good job or they aren't. Maybe there should be another counter class, I personally don't see a problem with a class being its own counter but maybe that's just me.

Clearly still don't understand

It has nothing to do with being useful to your team and whether or not you are can't be viewed as a drawback to sniping since many people don't care.

Lets try again, Sniping is too easy, in order to fix that there needs to be added difficulty the more you exploit your range advantage. Yes being counter sniped is the only risk and probably will always be the only risk other than some vehicles, but it's easily avoidable and easy enough to get just as many if not more kills as any other form of infantry for less risk.

Added difficulty is required, example: Ballistics added and the return of sway between shots. That would be a good fix. I hope you understand the point now, if not nothing more I can do about you.

Ohhhh right. you're concerned about the KDR and not team mechanics! gotcha! people don't care? I hear all the time about how people have deadweight snipers not doing **** for the team, not helping with objectives. If not used correctly, a sniper is relatively useless. Of course that's relevant and is a good balancing mechanic. This is a team based game where corporations fight each other and are coordinated about it. It's not like hordes of snipers run amok crushing everything in their scopes in pub matches either.

I understand perfectly what you're saying. I just disagree.

Sniping is the art of creative Darwinism in action.

Now your just acting idiotic, I meant it's the snipers that don't care, they have an easy way to get kills for very few deaths so why should they care about the rest of the team?

Why do you disagree?

What are you, fuckin 12? abuse any opinion not your own? grow up mate. if the snipers don't care, and are just going for kdr, who gives a ****? let them go for their life. They will likely not receive any team support making them easier to kill and not make any meaningful contribution to the outcome of the game. I've generally found its not an issue as adapting my playing style so as not to get killed is not hard.

MY point was that regardless of how good a snipers KDR is they are not "useful" and have trouble affecting the outcome of a match unless they are contributing to team goals i.e. overwatch of objectives, communicating enemy movements or generally providing specific area denial.

yet apparently it's not so easy that you get killed frequently........

Also I'm not sure why you seem to think that a sniper should be forced to operate at short range.. that is not the role of a sniper and imo is a broken mechanic of other fps games. Why have a sniper class if you're forced to use it like any other.

IMO, solution is simple.

Take away from NewBerries Assault - Sniper [STARTER KIT] and put Assault - Logistics [STARTER KIT] at sniper's place.

And the difference between Assault - Logistics [STARTER FIT] and Assault - Triage [STARTER FIT] would be...? (also, it's "FIT" not "KIT")

Also, no. That's almost as bad an idea as removing the AV Starter Fit.

First off... Ballistics added? Really? You do realize that the round from sniper rifles are, as per the description, traveling at over 8000m/sec, or 5.44 miles per second. At the ranges they are used at, there won't be any noticeable travel time or ballistic drop.

Yeah, I did out the math in another thread:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=506214#post506214

The bullet drop at maximum range was around a quarter of a meter at 1km. Given that I can sometimes hit enemy snipers behind cover at extreme range by aiming just above their heads, there may actually be bullet drop.

I keep seeing people say that it's a hitscan weapon, but I'm not sure if there is an official source for that. Realistically, the numbers do come out suggesting that a very, VERY fast projectile would feel that way even if there is travel time. I mean, the travel time at 1km is somewhere between 1 and 2 tenths of a second.

Heck, I have to lead moving targets just because it takes me longer than that to hit the button.

I would very much love to hear from the devs about the mechanics involved in their implementation. That might clear up some confusion for all us.

Examples:

Amarr

Scrambler GÇô Harassment:

- Shortest effective range.
- Highest proportional optimal range.
- Fastest bullet travel time.
- No drop.
- Shots lose damage beyond optimal range and dissipate entirely at effective range.
- Excellent Shield damage, medium Armour damage.
- Lowest recoil.
- Lowest damage.
- Fastest rate of fire.

An Amarrian scrambler sniper rifle would fit very well when it comes to harassing enemies into cover. A combination of extreme projectile speed, low recoil, and the ability to put many shots down range in short time - despite low damage and reach - would enable the user to fill much the same role as the Laser Rifle at sniper ranges but without the same level of sustained fire or crowd control.

---

Minmatar

Artillery GÇô Anti Materiel:

- Medium effective range.
- Shortest proportional optimal range.
- Slowest bullet travel time.
- Extreme drop beyond optimal range, bullet falls straight down at effective range.
- Damage does not decrease at any range.
- Excellent Armour damage, medium Shield damage.
- Highest recoil.
- Highest damage.
- Lowest rate of fire.

A Minmatar artillery sniper rifle would be unmatched at the GÇ£one shot one killGÇ¥ mantra, but sacrifices almost everything else to do so. The extremely low rate of fire means that priority targets are preferred (indeed, users would need to endure slow reloads between shots); the high recoil makes even the models with 2 shots unwieldy; the extreme bullet drop requires significant skill to use on moving targets; finally the mediocre range requires the user to get somewhat close to the target. The upshot is that these rifles can even pose a threat to lightly armoured vehicles.

---

Caldari/Gallente

Railgun GÇô Target softening.

- Farthest effective range.
- Medium proportional optimal range.
- Medium bullet travel time.
- Medium drop beyond optimal range.
- Damage decreases beyond optimal range but never hits 0.
- Medium Shield and Armour damage.
- Medium recoil.
- Medium damage.
- Medium rate of fire.

Both the Caldari and Gallente employ Railgun technology with regards to sniper rifles. Both racial variants focus on softening targets but are generally flexible. The Caldari version trades some rate of fire and damage in exchange for range and faster projectiles with less drop; making it more suited to finish off wounded or weak targets. The Gallente version leans the other way: sacrificing range and projectile speed for increased damage and rate of fire with increased drop; for applying initial hits on general infantry, or additional support against hardened targets.

IMO, solution is simple.

Take away from NewBerries Assault - Sniper [STARTER KIT] and put Assault - Logistics [STARTER KIT] at sniper's place.

First off... Ballistics added? Really? You do realize that the round from sniper rifles are, as per the description, traveling at over 8000m/sec, or 5.44 miles per second. At the ranges they are used at, there won't be any noticeable travel time or ballistic drop.

Second... I hate using the sniper rifle, it's not really my play style, but in New Eden there's a saying... "Adapt or die".

I keep seeing people say that it's a hitscan weapon, but I'm not sure if there is an official source for that. Realistically, the numbers do come out suggesting that a very, VERY fast projectile would feel that way even if there is travel time. I mean, the travel time at 1km is somewhere between 1 and 2 tenths of a second.

Heck, I have to lead moving targets just because it takes me longer than that to hit the button.

I would very much love to hear from the devs about the mechanics involved in their implementation. That might clear up some confusion for all us.

*snipped personal attacks and inappropriate language* - CCP Eterne

if the snipers don't care, and are just going for kdr, who gives a ****? let them go for their life. They will likely not receive any team support making them easier to kill and not make any meaningful contribution to the outcome of the game. I've generally found its not an issue as adapting my playing style so as not to get killed is not hard.

I think that if you're playing against a decent team the class isn't as overpowered as you seem to imply. Of course snipers are going to get ridiculous amounts of kills and no deaths if playing a bunch of blueberries, but the same could be said for any class if played well. A sniper is not that hard to counter if you're any good. I'm sure you've had experience hunting snipers and ending kill streaks. "easy" is relative. I've had some matches where I've found it incredibly easy, and others where it's increasingly difficult to find any momentum.

It's fluff description. If CCP were so inclined they could either rewrite the fiction for sniper rifles, or they could simply add in something that's the equivalent of ballistics, albeit designed to be more congruent with the rifle description. Also, it's 2500m/sec not 8000. The bottom line, though, is that the design of the rifle being constrained by the flavour text some CCP writer-type-person crafted for this particular gun is pretty ludicrous.



"Adapt or die" does not mean that CCP has no imperative to fix things that are clearly not designed well. It shouldn't be used as a smoke screen and excuse for apathy. There is a problem with sniping. I'm advocating changes to that end. Sayings from EVE don't factor into it.



There really isn't any confusion. Go find a turret at your max range (you'll know it's max range because the dot will have just turned red when the target is within range) and pull the trigger. You'll instantly do damage.

But anyway, as I said to the other guy, the fluff is just fluff. Sniper rifles with ballistic considerations have worked very well in other FPS games with very wide, open areas to them. Planetside 1, Planetside 2, both games benefit from such an implementation of sniping.

This is flat-out wrong, and I have trouble accepting that you seriously think a sniper who gets 20 or 30 kills in a game isn't contributing. Obviously it's not good to have too many snipers, but a couple good snipers currently can decimate an enemy team. Those kills they're getting aren't coming from nowhere. Snipers kill enemy snipers, which helps infantry keep plugging away. Snipers kill that guy who was sneaking up on you and would have otherwise shot you in the back and killed you. Snipers turn that 2v1 into a 1v1 for you. The idea that killing enemies isn't contributing is a fantasy. The only people whose deaths basically don't matter might be someone defending an objective that your team isn't attacking. But as pretty much nobody does that, I'd say upwards of 90% of all kills snipers get will help to thin out the group you'll be attacking, attacked by, or kill the snipers who'd otherwise be doing the same to your own team.

So yes, sniping strictly for kills can be useful if you're able to get enough of them. That said, even if it weren't, it wouldn't change the fact that sniping is too easy/safe for how it is powerful, which is the crux of the issue.

You must not have gone up against any experienced snipers, and I give a **** because it effects overall gameplay and I give **** how this game turns out.

I never claimed it was OP this is more about the faults in sniping and helping to prevent things such as redline camping. Adding things like bullet drop and travel time creates more difficulty the more you exploit your advantages that previously had no downside. It helps change the tactics of some snipers or makes long range kills more rewarding it depends on their choices. Have you ever sniped or are you making these points from the self centered point of view of one class

Perhaps useless was the wrong word to use, maybe "less effective" is better. The situation you've described would be one of the strengths of having a good sniper; keeping pressure on enemy fronts to thin their forces and/or provide other teammates with a higher chance of success in an engagement. I would argue that there would be some overlap in this, but that this is something that a sniper with the goal of *winning* the game would be more inclined to do. A sniper aiming purely for a high kdr would just pick off the blueberries running around the edges of the map or wandering aimlessly. Obviously the higher the kill count the more effective they become (due to this overlap) but it is still relatively ineffective in comparison to a sniper actively playing the role for the team where there would be less emphasis on getting kills and more on supporting the survivability and strategic goals of the team. how do you define easy? I would argue that this is directly relevant as the measure of how "easy" it is should be tied to how effective they can operate as part of a team rather than as an individual. It could hardly be an "easy" class if the user is making minimal impact on game outcome despite getting a relatively high number of kills.

You're using imprecise terms. "Less effective". "Minimal impact". What is the average impact of a sniper? Who's to say but CCP? Our perspective is so narrow. What's the difference between running to a point which a sniper just shot dead two enemies at, there to find a single enemy awaiting you, versus there having only been one enemy there in the first place? When I would snipe, sometimes I'd kill an entire squad before they could make it to an objective. During the corp battles, where everyone was communicating and being attentive, I killed three enemies who managed to sneak back to point A on that spires map via dropship. We had nobody defending it, they never even started hacking it, so nobody had any idea -- if they even saw my kill spam -- where those people I killed was. Who knows if people walked away from that fight thinking that damn Fivetimes Infinity, sitting on the whole game, he didn't help at all.

This is why attempting to justify the power of snipers as acceptable because they are "relatively ineffective" is unconvincing to me. The real story is more than you're not aware of their true impact, because often times you can't see just what the people they're killing are up to. It can be easy to dismiss snipers if the kills aren't happening right in front of your face. But trust me, the people they're shooting aren't "wandering aimlessly". People don't really do that very much in this game.

In any case, whether the capacity of snipers right now -- either to help their team or get kills -- is at a place CCP would like it to be, it doesn't change the fact that the raw mechanics of sniping are overly simplistic. The changes I've been advocating since sometime this past summer have been all about making sniping more engaging. Bullet travel time, bullet drop, scope sway -- these things shouldn't be seen as nerfs. They will help bring snipers in closer to the fighting, make it more exciting for them, more interesting for everyone else. Raising the skill ceiling on a weapon ought not to be lamented, even if at the same time it perhaps raises the skill floor as well. And, at the end of the day, I bet the people who like sniping for the sake of sniping, and not just for the KDR, would appreciate a change that would make getting a kill at 500 m an impressive feat, rather than being just any old shot.