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Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.16 06:41:00 - [1] - Quote R ainbow wrote: Funny thing about snipers (this is coming from someone who primarily plays a logi), If they're stationary (which most snipers are) or kinda stay in the same area (which most snipers do) they will only have lines of sight to certain areas. Solution: Learn the maps, learn the sight lines, avoid the snipers line of sight. Always works for me. I completely believe you when you say you don't play a sniper. Sniper vantage points on most maps allow you to see huge areas at a time. When a sniper is able to shoot anything in a given third of the map, and can shoot the rest of the map if he repositions himself by walking a few metres, what exactly is the sight line you're avoiding? You could hide behind a box all game, but that only protects you from one side, and is probably not very fun. The bottom line is that sniping is incredibly powerful, incredibly easy to do, places snipers in very little risk if they have a brain, and there is, realistically, nothing you can do as an infantry person other than ensuring you remain constantly in motion. Sniping is not fun to deal with as an infantry guy, as as the video points out, it adds nothing to the game other than causing you to randomly take damage or die with no recourse. Bojo The Mighty wrote: Is killing a sniper fun? Not really. You just walk up to them and shoot them and they die without a fight. Maybe they spam grenades before you drop them, but they're dead. It isn't a challenge to kill them and is only satisfying because snipers are annoying. Much of the time snipers are so far away from you, and in difficult terrain, and safely protected by their own team, that killing the sniper in a method other than through sniping them yourself is unrealistic. Enkidu Camuel wrote: This a thousand times... even more at the line of sight, if you're out in the open without a hill, a rock or something to cover and a Sniper is shooting at you... then you just deserve to die. 90% of the maps are open terrain. If you want to attack an objective, you need to cross open terrain. Using your logic, only the people hiding in the MCC are the ones who don't "deserve" to die to snipers. Boy, that surely sounds like a fun game to me, the one where you never move out of cover so that you don't get sniped.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.16 21:07:00 - [2] - Quote crazy space 2100046106 wrote: So there is this thing called an LAV. Also dropships and tanks. Another issue is hlaf of the map pool is down. There are many maps with large indoor areas. But don't forget snipers will always be good in the right hands. A good sniper is a good sniper. Sorry they always land a shot. Now the game shifts to tactics. Deploy heavy snipers as counter snipers. Bring in dropships, or lav rush to thier location. Have someone sneak up on him he's in his scope. How to people deal with snipers in real life? Sometimes they find the sniper and send rockets at the building to kill him. Have you tried using the forge gun as a weapon to kill snipers? You have no idea the joy you are missing out on. I always laugh when people suggest using vehicles to counter snipers as if that means there isn't a problem. Sniper rifle costs 5k ISK or something minor like that. You can go out in a militia suit and a 5k rifle and two-shot most people from across the map. The "solution" isn't to bring in a vehicle worth tens of thousands of ISK and charge them down, as if killing them once will solve the problem. The solution is to make sniper rifles have power in-line with their cost, and in-line with their difficulty of use. And I spent the past two builds as a sniper. I had a KDR of around 14 and thousands of kills across both builds. I know what works on snipers and what doesn't. I'm not missing out on anything. Bar none the only reliable way to deal with snipers is to counter-snipe them. And even though I've tried to stick to non-sniper weapons this build exclusively, sometimes I find myself having to resort to overpowered sniping to deal with overpowered snipers. Not very fun.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.16 23:58:00 - [3] - Quote crazy space 2100046106 wrote: Ok well when I run you over in my dropship you can keep pretends It's not a viable counter I have never been killed by a dropship crashing into me as a sniper. Seems like an awfully expensive way to buy yourself 2 minutes without one sniper killing your guys. If you are serious about countering snipers, as I said, the only reliable method is through sniping yourself. As an added pro tip, if you use a sniper rifle and move about the battlefield as a regular infantry guy might, rather than staying way in the back or flanks like most snipers do, you can often catch enemy snipers unawares, as they won't realize the guy running around down there isn't a harmless AR-packing grunt, but in fact an enemy sniper. Note that this is a bit dicey a tactic as you're obviously vulnerable to enemy infantry whilst doing it, but if you can do it properly you can get several kills on enemy snipers without being a tool and crashing a 50k ISK vehicle into them.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.17 07:03:00 - [4] - Quote Slightly-Mental wrote: iam sorry to say, the game or the world doesnt revolve around you or what you deem is "fun" sorry if this seems harsh but iam getting sick off people whining just for the sake of whining, and iam getting in a pissy mood over it. You should take your own advice. crazy space 2100046106 wrote:* Why would my dropship die while squishing you? Allies shooting you down, you hitting the not-level terrain I'd always be sniping around in the first place, and the odds that you're bad at flying due to the fact that you are generally bad at games, which I am basing on the fact that you think flying a dropship around trying to crush snipers is the best way to deal with them.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.17 18:32:00 - [5] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Snipers are pretty okay in Dust at the moment (January 2013) Things to tune: - Add ballistic/travel time to bullets in order to make hitting farther and farther more and more difficult (small tune-up to damage to balance usability). That would make the shots more rewarding and would emphasize player skill in longshots. Also as a bonus, this would make redline sniping less tempting as the range from safe area tends to be long (unless redlined, but thats okay then) - Fix the remaining hitdetection issues to get rid of the bugged advantage of high positions. Also aids snipers so they won't be affected by that LOS yes but barrel clipping -problem Sniping isn't even close to where it needs to be. Adding bullet travel time is a good idea, but that may not enough. Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Realistically, the best solution I've heard to this is nerfing the rewards for actions initiated behind the redline. This wouldn't solve anything. If the enemy is behind the redline or 1 cm away from the red line, how much more likely are you to be able to kill them? Moving snipers onto the actual battlefield and off the mountains way off to the side or behind the lines can be done, as the other guy said, through making sniping take skill, and making long shots harder than close shots. Garrett Blacknova wrote: And if a team's snipers are destroying your team, then they're doing their jobs, and your team isn't countering them effectively. The game should not ever revolve around snipers. The fact that the "job" of a sniper can ever be to cause the amount of damage they can is evidence of the fact that they're not in-line with other methods of playing. The fact that I, as a sniper, can kill 4 or 5 people as they move from one objective to another and necessarily cross open ground to get there is absurd. trollsroyce wrote: Planetside 2 sniping is very situational and mostly meaningless as well. Planetside 2 is exactly where Dust needs to be, and the fact that most snipers can't accept that only illuminates the kind of sense of entitlement sniper players currently have. Sniping is by far the safest, most powerful, least demanding way to play this game. Its power is unmatched, the ease of use for sniper rifles is unmatched, and the ISK/SP required to be dominant is minimal. Even a militia sniper rifle with militia everything else will allow a totally new player to two-shot people from across the map. Any sniper who knows what they're doing can shut down entire avenues of approach, all on their own, with nothing the enemy can realistically hope to do aside from something suicidal which may buy them a minute of reprieve at best. That is unacceptable. Dust will never gain the kind of traction it needs to so long as ****** methods of play like spamming grenades or being a sniper remain as imbalanced as they are.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.17 19:11:00 - [6] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: I have never had trouble countersniping anyone who was not behind the redline. Even there I can usually do so effectively, although I was better before the reset- I'm still training my skills back up. Behind the redline, though, they are sometimes so far away that it is nigh impossible to find them. Bring them into the main battlefield and chances are that someone on your team will look at them, even inadvertently, and blow their cover. The issue isn't wirth counter-sniping. People don't like the redline snipers when they themselves aren't snipers. Currently, sniping is the only realistic counter to most snipers. Vaerana Myshtana wrote: You write as if this game should revolve around Assaults with ARs running straight up to people and gunning away. Maybe that's not what you mean, but that's how this comes across. It should revolve around the people who are actually on the ground, in the middle of the fight, engaging people and themselves being engaged. Infantry of any weapon type or dropsuit type, vehicles, and so on. Snipers are not active participants in the game. They are alone, not interacting with anyone in a meaningful way, and are only apparent to themselves via counter-sniping, and to the people whom they shoot and injure/kill at random periods. As the OP's video points out, they aren't creating any fun gameplay themselves. Quote: Snipers ARE supposed to be able to kill 4 or 5 people running through the open when their teamwork sucks. Someone on that team should be countersniping. Someone should be communicating (I just got nailed by a sniper on my left as I headed towards Objective A from B.). They aren't "supposed" to do anything. All they should be doing is what makes gameplay fun. Four people in a squad hitting an objective, getting killed in seconds by one person when they person gets a bit lucky and doesn't miss any shots, with no way to defend themselves against that person, is not fun gameplay. I assume all you do is snipe considering your defence of snipers in total disregard of logic, so unless you are terrible and one of those snipers who crouches atop hills all day, you should know that "someone should be counter-sniping" is a meaningless statement. There could be 10 people on the enemy team counter-sniping for that one squad advancing, but some sniper vantage points are totally safe from enemy snipers unless those snipers are in specific areas, relatively far afield. It is a simple and effective practice, as a sniper, to advance to a point where you are essentially flanking enemies, with some kind of terrain protrusion or structure protecting you from anyone who isn't directly in front of you. In those case, you can easily cover objectives, you can kill any enemy sniper who moves into your line of fire, and you are going to go the entire game without getting shot at, let alone counter-sniped. Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Grenade spamming? Again with the "running up to things with an AR" issue. Sure, I do it too, but I at least know I'm being dumb when I do. Grenade spamming is not a bug, it is exactly what should happen to players who want to run straight up while blazing away. Grenade spamming is bad gameplay that rewards people disproportionate to their input.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.17 19:41:00 - [7] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: So that would be a yes, you think the game revolves around Assaults. Okay. It revolves around heavies with HMGs, scouts with shotguns, tank drivers, dropship drivers, assaults with swarm launchers, and everyone else who, in order to kill someone, needs to put themselves in harms way to do so. All of the people, including "assaults", are united by the commonality of risk versus reward. To get kills, they need to run the gauntlet of enemy infantry, enemy vehicles, and of course, snipers. And the ISK they put into their fitting pays off in more kills, but of course, an expensive fit means more lost when you die. Snipers, conversely, do not endanger themselves to anything like the same extent. The only real risk is enemy snipers, and if you know where to place yourself, that risk becomes minimal. Similarly, you can kill most people in two hits using militia gear. Your ability to kill does not depend on a serious ISK investment. Even a starter fit is very powerful. The amount you need to invest as a sniper, in terms of risk, in terms of ISK, in terms of player skill, is not proportional to the pay-off you get in terms of kills inflicted and overall damage done to the enemy team. Quote: Um... I'm not here to make your gameplay "fun". I'm playing to challenge your ability and have you challenge mine. By that, I'm talking not just about run-and-gun, but tactics, teamwork, stealth, all of the above and more. Snipers do not challenge anyone's ability. There's a tiny bit of subtlety to counter-sniping, but mostly it's whack-a-mole on your PS3. Quote: No, actually I spend about two-thirds of my time running logistics, scout, and swarm. Then I forgive you for not understanding the nuances of sniper gameplay and how counter-sniping isn't just a thing that cancels out snipers magically once you have someone doing it on the field. Quote: The difference here is that I don't QQ about it- I suit up as a sniper and take them out. Yes, you're amazing, we're all in awe. This doesn't change the fact that sniping is poorly done and needs revision.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.18 02:56:00 - [8] - Quote Christ0pher Blair wrote: [quote=Winsaucerer]If anyone has played World Of Tanks, the same 'issues' are said about artillery there too. However, the more you play the more you will understand that avoiding snipers isn't that hard. Not the same whatsoever. SPGs in WoT shoot very slowly and rely on allies to spot targets for them. As an SPG, you have the potential for only a handful of shots on most maps, and you will not detect any of those enemies you're shooting yourself. SPGs rely on teamwork between the SPG and allied tanks, even if the teamwork is incidental a lot of the time. Furthermore, SPG rounds have travel time. While hitting stationary tanks isn't typically so hard, hitting mobile tanks requires you to anticipate the shot travel time, the target's speed, and move your reticule accordingly. As your reticule blooms enormously everytime your tank moves, this demands of SPG players a certain ability to anticipate the movement of enemy tanks. In short, SPGs in WoT have significant demands upon the SPG player, compared to snipers in Dust. They also require teamwork, whereas snipers do not. SPGs also cannot hit large portions of many maps due to terrain features, which allows tanks in that came to avoid artillery fire fairly easily in a lot of cases. In Dust, you are almost never safe from sniper fire. Snipers can see huge swathes of the map at a time, and the only cover you have is the little bits of clutter here and there. But as you have no idea where enemy snipers could be -- on your flanks or at the enemy spawn area -- you have no way of knowing if hiding on this side of the building has made you safe or not. Overall your analogy is terrible. WoT SPGs are a valuable addition to that game. They help prevent excessive camping behind cover, they are glass cannons which have a whole other little side-game of counter-arty shooting to do, the offer light tanks and fast mediums a highly valuable target to attempt to take out and thereby severely weaken the enemy team, and so on. They are dynamic and interesting. Conversely, Dust snipers are boring bullshit that just randomly drops your health or kills you as you're going about your business, regardless of where you are, regardless of any precautions you may take or that your team may take. The only person they make any fun for are the snipers themselves, and as a rather seasoned sniper, I can assure you that playing the game as a non-sniper is more fun, even if you won't go 20/0 game after game and get to pretend like you're good.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.18 03:03:00 - [9] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: I enjoy complex, multifaceted games that require me to constantly change what I'm doing. I like Dust pretty much the way it is. I plan to keep playing it unless they try to make it too much like most other FPS games. What a bunch of overblown garbage. Do you have any idea how inflated you sound? You're sitting in a corner of the map somewhere, putting a dot over someone 400 or 500 m away, and clicking a button. Complex and multifaceted my ass. The only consideration you have to make is that you're not exposed to the counter-sniper fire. That's it. Put dot over target, press button, win game. No compensating for bullet drop or travel time. No serious risk from enemy infantry or vehicles. No scope sway that you need to account for. And basically unlimited ammo thanks to nano hives. What more could a decidedly simplistic FPS player ask for in their simplistic, uni-faceted gameplay.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.18 07:50:00 - [10] - Quote Terra Thesis wrote: sniping isn't unbalanced at all Yeah, it is, as a matter of fact. You can do it for basically any sniper, but my KDR when I was a sniper primarily was somewhere between 13 and 14. My KDR as an infantry guy using assault rifles and stuff is between 3 and 4. I very rarely died as a sniper, and made a ton of money because I'd get at least 10 kills a game. On a sheer basis of power vs. difficulty/cost, sniping is unambiguously imbalanced, and you can see that for basically every sniper in the game, as I mentioned. Going 10/0, 20/0, isn't uncommon or exceptional for snipers. Meanwhile, doing that as an infantry guy absolutely would be exceptional. Sniper rifles are very clearly in need of revision. That said, I also agree that the game would be just fine if they were removed entirely. Crappy gameplay mechanics that don't really add anything ought not to be in in the first place. jeremiah j wrote: The role of a sniper first is info for squad, second keeping squad mates alive, third watching objectives, and finally getting your kills. A good sniper works for the team not for the k/d. If you understand the maps well enough and have good teamwork no single sniper can cause you too much trouble and if they do it is worth the ob. When you put your reticule over a target you make it show up for your allies. There's your squad info. Killing the target keeps your allies alive, defends objectives that enemy might otherwise have taken, and gets you a kill. Seriously though, do you just kind of sit there and talk to people as a sniper primarily? Maybe I'm just weird, but I always tended to consider shooting people with a sniper rifle to be the role of a sniper.

Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.18 16:05:00 - [11] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: I still disagree and am just as unlikely to change my viewpoint as you are. When you come forward with an argument based on something other than your own personal proclivities as someone who plays a sniper and is keenly focused on his own interests, then I might find myself persuaded. I am not impermeable to reason, it's just that so far you have failed to utilize any reasoning in your argument. Quote: Take a look at EVE- "Disco Domis" and other "suicide ganking" techniques annoy the HOLY SNOT out of a lot of players. Crashing bugs probably annoyed the "holy snot" out of people, too. Should crashing bugs be reintroduced? How about the invalid fitting bug? I found that annoying. Annoying is not a word people should use to describe things in this game. "Fun" or "cool" or "exciting" should be the words of the day. Just because EVE has/had a lot of terrible features and made a lot of mistakes along the way, doesn't mean Dust should do the same. How about we agree that this winds up CCP's first game where it's fun and enjoyable for everyone on day 1?
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.18 16:15:00 - [12] - Quote ArMaGeDoN The Cat wrote: CCP should take notes from BF3. There are all sorts of games CCP should be taking their sniper ideas from. Right now they've taken it from any generic FPS game from 10+ years ago, when weapons that used hitscan bullets were common and most of the controls were keyboard-only. The sniper rifles are like something designed for Rise of the Triad, or Duke Nukem 3D. Overly simplistic hitscan guns made for machines where calculating actual bullets flying through the air, hitting the enemy sprites, is too much to ask. Planetside 1 is what I believe CCP should go for, specifically, though. Sniping in Planetside 1 was perfect. You'd get kills at it, but it wasn't easy. You could stay at long range, but the longer you were away the harder it was to get kills. See, the sniper rifle in that game, called a bolt driver, features bullet travel time, as well as a reticule that bloomed every time you adjusted your aim. Not everytime you moved, but simply looking around made your shots inaccurate, and it took several seconds for the bloom to settle and the shot to become accurate. As a result, shooting people in that game as a sniper required anticipating their movement, to put the reticule in the right spot and have them run to it, as well as the travel time of the bullet you fired. What's more, no hits were one-shot-kills on infantry. And the gun was a single shot thing that required a reload every time. Sniping therefore became a support weapon that'd help suppress/soften up enemy infantry, rather than a gun that people could use to wipe out the enemy team from across the map. That's much more along the lines of how sniping should be in Dust. Require skill, provide far fewer kills than it does currently, and be more about suppression and supporting your infantry than about annihilating entire groups of enemies without breaking a sweat.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.18 19:41:00 - [13] - Quote Arc Brimstone wrote: I do not agree with this at all. By nature a sniper rifle should be a one hit one kill weapon. They are high powered rifles, that their only purpose is to kill someone from a great distance. I always had a problem with games where the sniper rifles weren't on hit one kill. If I shoot you in the leg with a 50 caliber sniper rifle, how long do you think it'd take you to bleed out? Not very long truthfully. There is no "should be". It's a game. The only "should be" is that it should be fun. Being one-hit-killed from 500 m wouldn't be fun. I know, because a couple builds ago it was easy to do just that as a sniper against most non-heavies with simple body shots. That is not good gameplay, and any attempt at realistic justification you may try is totally irrelevant.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.19 07:58:00 - [14] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: You continue to argue as if your definition of "fun", is, well... definitive. You probably mean to use the word "subjective", not "definitive". If it were a definitive definition, you wouldn't be suggesting I'm wrong. But the issue of whether sniping should be a playstyle catered to is aside from my main point. As I've said, I'm okay with snipers when they're done properly. Planetside 1, even Planetside 2, both had good snipers. Bullet drop, bullet travel time, scope sway -- getting a lot of kills as a sniper takes skill in Planetside 2. There's a balance to it. In Dust, none of that. Sniping takes virtually no skill, no ISK, and you can go 10 or 20/0 without any real effort. That's the real problem with sniping that I have. Not that it exists, that its power is not relative to its demands on the player. Although, if there were a way to make Dust sniping a valuable addition to the game, like SPGs in World of Tanks are, that'd be interesting, too. Currently, sniping is in simply because people expect sniper rifles and CCP is indulging our expectations. But this is the most primitive and brainless for of sniper rifle I've seen in a long time. I think CCP can do better than this. The real issue should be how to make sniping a fun and interesting part of this, a modern FPS experience, rather than an anachronistic piece of genericism pulled out from the ancient history of FPS gaming, back when everything was hit scan and bunny hopping was considered good gameplay.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.19 22:14:00 - [15] - Quote Tailss Prower wrote: OH and anyone saying i'm just getting free kills why not acturally try sniping and see how well you do cause while it may be easy for me since I snipe in just about every fps game I play but there are many I have watched who could take like 10 shots and maybe hit the guy once and if you sneak up on me and kill me then good for you as I don't care about my warpoints or those so called free kills as my k/d means nothing to me I snipe for the pure sport of sniping and no one can tell me any different I sniped all through Precursor and for about a week during Codex. In Precursor I had a couple thousand kills and 10.something KDR, and in Codex I had a few hundred kills and 13.89 KDR. You can try and act like KDR means nothing, but snipers are about the only role in the game where KDR is a useful metric for determining skill. So don't try and act as if you have some kind of authority on sniping unique to yourself. That said, you are getting free kills for no effort. Playing as a solo sniper versus playing as solo infantry now, I spend more on my equipment as infantry, I get fewer kills, and while I'll get more WP because I'll revive/hack as I go along, I do so while having a much greater challenge in front of me. Snipers shooting me, enemy infantry of all types, LAVs trying to run me over, turrets shooting me, grenade spam every game... it's pretty undeniable that infantry is a lot more difficult and has less of a pay-off. Why should one of the safest roles in the game also be the most powerful, while requiring the least SP and being as hard as putting a dot on a target and pulling a trigger a couple times?
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.19 22:39:00 - [16] - Quote Nobody is arguing sniping isn't useful. I despair at seeing a half-dozen snipers crowding the red zone of my team during a match, but it's mainly because snipers don't take points and don't revive/repair/etc team mates, rather than the fact that sniping is not useful. And I guess because, despite sniping being very powerful and easy to do, a decent number of people are pretty inept at sniping and therefore get only a few kills while contributing nothing else to the team -- and those people are not useful. If you're being sniped it's because you're playing the game like a normal person. There is nothing you can do to avoid snipers as a whole. A single, individual sniper you can maybe avoid by placing a building between you and him, but snipers have such long range, Dust maps are so open, and there are such good vantage points to shoot from, that the majority of the map is dangerous to traverse as an infantry guy of a mind to avoid snipers. About the only way you can really avoid snipers is by hiding in the MCC all game, or something to that effect.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.20 04:04:00 - [17] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: KDR is as useful of a measurement of a sniper's skill as it is for anyone else. Bottom line is you can't use it since you don't know who is maintaining a high kdr while being useful and who is just padding with 10 kills per match. In a previous build I knew a sniper who had a KDR over 50, well over 1000 kills, and made 8-900 meter kills on plenty of occasions. I'm not saying he was a bad sniper at all but in many instances he would camp the same spot of the map for 3-10 kills per match. KDR is only useful to measure the progression of yourself, but in the long run it's too easy to get a high KDR while being useless for it to be a used to compare one player to another. KDR isn't perfect but it's fairly good. The only real issue is that a supremely cautious sniper who only gets a couple kills a game and yet hardly ever dies might be indistinguishable from a more bold and talented sniper, who gets 20 kills a game but also between 1 and 2 deaths. In either case I didn't mention it to compare *** sizes. I don't care about what anyone's sniper stats are, because it's a hitscan gun which kills in ~2 hits from across the map. Excelling at uncomplicated tasks is generally not something noteworthy. Although I have no idea who you might be referring to with a KDR of 50. I didn't start paying attention to KDR until Precursor, when I set out to demonstrate how broken sniping is, and I didn't see anyone with a legitimate KDR that high. I guess he stopped playing sniper sometime during the summer. My only point is that nobody here is in any great position of authority over the others. There have been a few fools attempting to patronize the rest of us, telling us we need to play sniper sometime to learn how to counter them, or acting as if sniping is some truly complicated endeavour and that we just don't understand it. It's total rubbish. Sniping is a braindead activity, and I have enough experience as a sniper to say that with a certainty. The people acting as if it's such a deep role and we just don't understand it are either fooling themselves or attempting to fool us. Tailss Prower wrote:** and it would seem you don't grasp you can kill me 100 times in a skirmish and I'm still gonna laugh as I don't care if you had a 100.0 kdr I snipe for the sport of sniping meaning I ain't sniping because I think it is hard I'm sniping because I find it fun so where ever your logic on what I said came from you can keep it to yourself Whatever the reason you snipe for, you're not any better at it than I am, and you aren't in a position to tell why this is thus, and what the reason for this thusness is, in regard to sniping.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.20 06:24:00 - [18] - Quote Jeremiah ambromot wrote: I would think that's fun, so should that be implemented because we do not care about reality only fun? If you were making the game, sure, why not? It's not like there aren't all sorts of games that throw reality out the window for the sake of fun. Look at the Saints Row games. Silly, silly games, lot of fun. Beating cops to death with giant purple dildos? Don't mind if I do. Realism is merely a tool to use in the pursuit of an enjoyable game experience. CCP has so far made EVE internally consistent to an extent, which is about as realistic as super-advanced sci-fi stuff gets, so that's approximately what we ought to expect from Dust. The point is that it's all just made-up crap. Sniper rifles, right now, are brainless instruments that take no skill to use and are a boring, excessively powerful part of the game. That's not interesting. If in the process of making sniper rifles fun and balanced CCP elects to rewrite the rifle's description so as to make it more internally consistent, then so be it. But for them to be constrained, gameplay-wise, by what one of their writers put into a text box regarding the made-up functionality of the weapon is absurd.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.20 20:06:00 - [19] - Quote trollsroyce wrote: Simply because a sniper is not contributing to the objectives game in any other way than killing enemies to deter them from playing efficiently. If the main purpose of a sniper is to kill, therifle has to be damn overpowered at it. Otherwise any other role would be more important for the team. The purpose of snipers right now is kills, because unless you're Sleepy Zan, you're half a km away from the fighting most of the time and your team can't expect you to do anything but snipe. I'm not saying that's how it should be, I'm saying that's how it is. I've described how I think it should be already, but to reiterate, I want sniper rifles to have bullet drop, bullet travel time, and scope sway. These things, to an appropriate degree, will make sniping at extreme ranges much harder, while not really affecting closer range sniping. This will encourage snipers to move in, off the mountains, and become more involved in the actual game. They could still sit on the hills sniping, but because they're totally safe from anything but other snipers, their power would be understandably reduced as a result of the sway/bullet speed affecting their ability to hit distant, moving targets. Buzzwords wrote: just playing devils advocate here but... If your solution to snipers is "snipe them back" or "counter-snipe them" then doesn't that just prove that snipers ARE op in the same way people claiming you could counter tanks by calling in tanks of your own proved tanks were op a couple builds ago? That's a pretty good point as well, and I agree in principle. Tailss Prower wrote: since when did I say anything about being better than you I pointed out that some snipers can't aim and as far as I can tell I didn't point fingers at anyone nor did I say I was better but hell if you want to live in this delusion and argue with me I will be more than happy to argue with you all day Again, this isn't about anyone being better than anyone else, it's about nobody here presuming to instruct anyone else on how to play a sniper, because regardless of what your opinion on this is, there are competent snipers who share your opinion.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.20 20:08:00 - [20] - Quote Sebastian Seraphim wrote: People have to keep in mind with all these ballistic revisions that: THIS IS A SCI-FI FPS Sci-fi spits in the face of realism. Sniper rifles in the future can fire from miles away, assault rifles fire massive rounds that would in real life knock the person holding the gun flying but thanks to research in the sci-fi universe of EVE has just about the same recoil as real life assault rifles. Our weapons are meant to overpowered to negate the protection of our drop suits which are also ridiculously tough. If anything I think our weapons sound and feel like pea shooters instead of freaking arm cannons! Everyone is aware this is a sci-fi FPS game, but thanks for the pro tip. Notice that last part there? Game. Sniper rifles in the future do whatever the game designers want them to do in order to make the game as good as it can be. There is no correct answer on the basis of it being a sci-fi FPS title. What matters is what's right from a gameplay perspective.

Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.21 08:56:00 - [21] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: Omg another stale thread about the same damn thing. I lost count. My popcorn got stale. And this one is a few pages long. Don't you guys get bored kicking this ball back and forth until it breaks? I'm not going to stop talking about sniper rifles until CCP decides to fix them. It's painfully obvious that they need to be totally reworked. I'm reminded of it every time I play Planetside 2, and use a sniper rifle that is actually designed to demand skill out of its user. Mars El'Theran wrote: If there are 5 Snipers on the hill, then there are less 5 players attempting to control points on the field, and you will win anyway. If it is ambush, then it really doesn't matter. Most games there are ~5 snipers on both teams.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.30 10:54:00 - [22] - Quote 2100 Angels wrote: I hate to be the one to say this, but if you're constantly getting killed by snipers have you ever considered, you know, changing the way you play? Gee whiz, what a brilliant idea. If only I'd have thought of "l2p nub" first! My comments are not based on me frequently dying to snipers. I don't often die to snipers. I get wounded by snipers fairly often, but not killed. My opinion on snipers is, instead, based on my extensive experience as a sniper. I know how powerful, how little skill is required, and how safe being a sniper is. These factors don't add up. There's supposed to be a certain arithmetic to this stuff. A gun as powerful and easy to use as sniping should have some serious negatives. It doesn't. That's a problem. But thanks for the amazing insight and brilliant tips on how to play this game, anyway. I'm sure all the people who've never played a video game before in their lives found your pro tips very educational.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.30 13:55:00 - [23] - Quote You can get pretty similar KDR to tank users as a sniper, except you can run a militia sniper setup for free, while tanks cost at least 100k at their crappiest.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:05:00 - [24] - Quote Roy Ventus wrote: Imo. The main weakness of a sniper is that they all need distance for long-term survival. With distance comes getting away from the frontline or a major objective as these areas are prone to flash assaults. Since the sniper is so far away all they can do is snipe, feed intel, and wait out a battle. If the battle really gets thick and the objective is about to be taken or the enemy team is pushing your team back with aggressive force, the sniper has low capabilities as they can't directly get into the frontline and help push the enemy back or help retake an objective. This really isn't true at all. You can be a frontline sniper pretty successfully. I've done it a few times, I know that Sleepy Zan guy used to run around with a sniper rifle and a hit detection suit. The weakness of sniping is that at very close ranges, or if they're the primary target at medium ranges, yeah, they'll be in trouble. But if you hang back a bit from your allies, you can do just fine sniping from the front. In particular, it's easy enough to snipe at that range that you don't even need to crouch to shoot, as the sway will be so little from skills/range that you'll be able to accurately kill people from AR ranges. The reason you don't see this often is because there is no reason for most snipers to ever do it. Why run around and get in closer when you have a hitscan weapon with a base range of 500 m? In more sensible games, where sniping involves skill and requires correcting for sway/bullet drop/bullet travel time, sniping closer-in is encouraged, as it's easier to get kills from there. But in Dust, you can get kills just fine sitting at the back of the map. There's not much difference between winning and losing, so the vast majority of snipers clearly can't be bothered to endanger themselves for the sake of capping points, even if they'd still be potent at such closer ranges. 2100 Angels wrote: I don't understand. what's the problem? If you're not getting killed, how does that make sniping easy mode? Sniping is "easy mode" because it's very easy to snipe. Happy to help.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.31 07:16:00 - [25] - Quote 2100 Angels wrote: MY point was that regardless of how good a snipers KDR is they are not "useful" and have trouble affecting the outcome of a match unless they are contributing to team goals i.e. overwatch of objectives, communicating enemy movements or generally providing specific area denial. This is flat-out wrong, and I have trouble accepting that you seriously think a sniper who gets 20 or 30 kills in a game isn't contributing. Obviously it's not good to have too many snipers, but a couple good snipers currently can decimate an enemy team. Those kills they're getting aren't coming from nowhere. Snipers kill enemy snipers, which helps infantry keep plugging away. Snipers kill that guy who was sneaking up on you and would have otherwise shot you in the back and killed you. Snipers turn that 2v1 into a 1v1 for you. The idea that killing enemies isn't contributing is a fantasy. The only people whose deaths basically don't matter might be someone defending an objective that your team isn't attacking. But as pretty much nobody does that, I'd say upwards of 90% of all kills snipers get will help to thin out the group you'll be attacking, attacked by, or kill the snipers who'd otherwise be doing the same to your own team. So yes, sniping strictly for kills can be useful if you're able to get enough of them. That said, even if it weren't, it wouldn't change the fact that sniping is too easy/safe for how it is powerful, which is the crux of the issue. Quote: yet apparently it's not so easy that you get killed frequently........ I don't die often to anything, and have a KDR as an assault/AR guy of ~4.5, but that doesn't mean that the game is perfect. Quote: Also I'm not sure why you seem to think that a sniper should be forced to operate at short range.. that is not the role of a sniper and imo is a broken mechanic of other fps games. Why have a sniper class if you're forced to use it like any other. They should be a part of the actual game was my point. I didn't say short range, that I recall, I said the game mechanics should discourage extremely long-range sniping by making it harder to get shots. Snipers should be rewarded for moving in closer to the fight (not CLOSE to the fight, just closer). Their additional risk should have a pay-off of more kills. Right now, there is essentially no reason for snipers to be anywhere other than as far from the fight as possible, provided they're still within range. That is not good. That doesn't make things fun for anyone.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:34:00 - [26] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: First off... Ballistics added? Really? You do realize that the round from sniper rifles are, as per the description, traveling at over 8000m/sec, or 5.44 miles per second. At the ranges they are used at, there won't be any noticeable travel time or ballistic drop. It's fluff description. If CCP were so inclined they could either rewrite the fiction for sniper rifles, or they could simply add in something that's the equivalent of ballistics, albeit designed to be more congruent with the rifle description. Also, it's 2500m/sec not 8000. The bottom line, though, is that the design of the rifle being constrained by the flavour text some CCP writer-type-person crafted for this particular gun is pretty ludicrous. Quote: Second... I hate using the sniper rifle, it's not really my play style, but in New Eden there's a saying... "Adapt or die". "Adapt or die" does not mean that CCP has no imperative to fix things that are clearly not designed well. It shouldn't be used as a smoke screen and excuse for apathy. There is a problem with sniping. I'm advocating changes to that end. Sayings from EVE don't factor into it. Vaerana Myshtana wrote: I keep seeing people say that it's a hitscan weapon, but I'm not sure if there is an official source for that. Realistically, the numbers do come out suggesting that a very, VERY fast projectile would feel that way even if there is travel time. I mean, the travel time at 1km is somewhere between 1 and 2 tenths of a second. Heck, I have to lead moving targets just because it takes me longer than that to hit the button. I would very much love to hear from the devs about the mechanics involved in their implementation. That might clear up some confusion for all us. There really isn't any confusion. Go find a turret at your max range (you'll know it's max range because the dot will have just turned red when the target is within range) and pull the trigger. You'll instantly do damage. But anyway, as I said to the other guy, the fluff is just fluff. Sniper rifles with ballistic considerations have worked very well in other FPS games with very wide, open areas to them. Planetside 1, Planetside 2, both games benefit from such an implementation of sniping.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.02.01 02:13:00 - [27] - Quote 2100 Angels wrote: Perhaps useless was the wrong word to use, maybe "less effective" is better. The situation you've described would be one of the strengths of having a good sniper; keeping pressure on enemy fronts to thin their forces and/or provide other teammates with a higher chance of success in an engagement. I would argue that there would be some overlap in this, but that this is something that a sniper with the goal of winning the game would be more inclined to do. A sniper aiming purely for a high kdr would just pick off the blueberries running around the edges of the map or wandering aimlessly. Obviously the higher the kill count the more effective they become (due to this overlap) but it is still relatively ineffective in comparison to a sniper actively playing the role for the team where there would be less emphasis on getting kills and more on supporting the survivability and strategic goals of the team. how do you define easy? I would argue that this is directly relevant as the measure of how "easy" it is should be tied to how effective they can operate as part of a team rather than as an individual. It could hardly be an "easy" class if the user is making minimal impact on game outcome despite getting a relatively high number of kills. You're using imprecise terms. "Less effective". "Minimal impact". What is the average impact of a sniper? Who's to say but CCP? Our perspective is so narrow. What's the difference between running to a point which a sniper just shot dead two enemies at, there to find a single enemy awaiting you, versus there having only been one enemy there in the first place? When I would snipe, sometimes I'd kill an entire squad before they could make it to an objective. During the corp battles, where everyone was communicating and being attentive, I killed three enemies who managed to sneak back to point A on that spires map via dropship. We had nobody defending it, they never even started hacking it, so nobody had any idea -- if they even saw my kill spam -- where those people I killed was. Who knows if people walked away from that fight thinking that damn Fivetimes Infinity, sitting on the whole game, he didn't help at all. This is why attempting to justify the power of snipers as acceptable because they are "relatively ineffective" is unconvincing to me. The real story is more than you're not aware of their true impact, because often times you can't see just what the people they're killing are up to. It can be easy to dismiss snipers if the kills aren't happening right in front of your face. But trust me, the people they're shooting aren't "wandering aimlessly". People don't really do that very much in this game. In any case, whether the capacity of snipers right now -- either to help their team or get kills -- is at a place CCP would like it to be, it doesn't change the fact that the raw mechanics of sniping are overly simplistic. The changes I've been advocating since sometime this past summer have been all about making sniping more engaging. Bullet travel time, bullet drop, scope sway -- these things shouldn't be seen as nerfs. They will help bring snipers in closer to the fighting, make it more exciting for them, more interesting for everyone else. Raising the skill ceiling on a weapon ought not to be lamented, even if at the same time it perhaps raises the skill floor as well. And, at the end of the day, I bet the people who like sniping for the sake of sniping, and not just for the KDR, would appreciate a change that would make getting a kill at 500 m an impressive feat, rather than being just any old shot.

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