DUST Search - About snipers

Fivetimes Infinity wrote:

2100 Angels wrote:

Perhaps useless was the wrong word to use, maybe "less effective" is better. The situation you've described would be one of the strengths of having a good sniper; keeping pressure on enemy fronts to thin their forces and/or provide other teammates with a higher chance of success in an engagement. I would argue that there would be some overlap in this, but that this is something that a sniper with the goal of *winning* the game would be more inclined to do. A sniper aiming purely for a high kdr would just pick off the blueberries running around the edges of the map or wandering aimlessly. Obviously the higher the kill count the more effective they become (due to this overlap) but it is still relatively ineffective in comparison to a sniper actively playing the role for the team where there would be less emphasis on getting kills and more on supporting the survivability and strategic goals of the team. how do you define easy? I would argue that this is directly relevant as the measure of how "easy" it is should be tied to how effective they can operate as part of a team rather than as an individual. It could hardly be an "easy" class if the user is making minimal impact on game outcome despite getting a relatively high number of kills.

You're using imprecise terms. "Less effective". "Minimal impact". What is the average impact of a sniper? Who's to say but CCP? Our perspective is so narrow. What's the difference between running to a point which a sniper just shot dead two enemies at, there to find a single enemy awaiting you, versus there having only been one enemy there in the first place? When I would snipe, sometimes I'd kill an entire squad before they could make it to an objective. During the corp battles, where everyone was communicating and being attentive, I killed three enemies who managed to sneak back to point A on that spires map via dropship. We had nobody defending it, they never even started hacking it, so nobody had any idea -- if they even saw my kill spam -- where those people I killed was. Who knows if people walked away from that fight thinking that damn Fivetimes Infinity, sitting on the whole game, he didn't help at all.

This is why attempting to justify the power of snipers as acceptable because they are "relatively ineffective" is unconvincing to me. The real story is more than you're not aware of their true impact, because often times you can't see just what the people they're killing are up to. It can be easy to dismiss snipers if the kills aren't happening right in front of your face. But trust me, the people they're shooting aren't "wandering aimlessly". People don't really do that very much in this game.

In any case, whether the capacity of snipers right now -- either to help their team or get kills -- is at a place CCP would like it to be, it doesn't change the fact that the raw mechanics of sniping are overly simplistic. The changes I've been advocating since sometime this past summer have been all about making sniping more engaging. Bullet travel time, bullet drop, scope sway -- these things shouldn't be seen as nerfs. They will help bring snipers in closer to the fighting, make it more exciting for them, more interesting for everyone else. Raising the skill ceiling on a weapon ought not to be lamented, even if at the same time it perhaps raises the skill floor as well. And, at the end of the day, I bet the people who like sniping for the sake of sniping, and not just for the KDR, would appreciate a change that would make getting a kill at 500 m an impressive feat, rather than being just any old shot.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.01.30 06:51:00 - [1] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: Omg another stale thread about the same damn thing. I lost count. My popcorn got stale. And this one is a few pages long. Don't you guys get bored kicking this ball back and forth until it breaks? I'm not going to stop talking about sniper rifles until CCP decides to fix them. It's painfully obvious that they need to be totally reworked. I'm reminded of it every time I play Planetside 2, and use a sniper rifle that is actually designed to demand skill out of its user. Mars El'Theran wrote: If there are 5 Snipers on the hill, then there are less 5 players attempting to control points on the field, and you will win anyway. If it is ambush, then it really doesn't matter. Most games there are ~5 snipers on both teams. I hate to be the one to say this, but if you're constantly getting killed by snipers have you ever considered, you know, changing the way you play? Snipers are not OP. Snipers are extremely weak in any form of cqc and increasingly vulnerable at a medium range. That's the way it should be. At long range, snipers are at their strongest. At the risk of pointing out the obvious; the further away a sniper gets from the target, the smaller the target gets. This makes it very easy to avoid being sniped (especially if you know you're being targetted) by moving in an erratic and unpredictable manner, and increasingly difficult to hit a target. Have you ever tried sniping a target with an unpredictable movement pattern? It takes luck or a lot of skill to do consistently; a hell of a lot more than pointing and shooting with an AR. If you're standing still, you have nothing to complain about.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.01.30 14:32:00 - [2] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Gee whiz, what a brilliant idea. If only I'd have thought of "l2p nub" first! My comments are not based on me frequently dying to snipers. I don't often die to snipers. I get wounded by snipers fairly often, but not killed. My opinion on snipers is, instead, based on my extensive experience as a sniper. I know how powerful, how little skill is required, and how safe being a sniper is. These factors don't add up. There's supposed to be a certain arithmetic to this stuff. A gun as powerful and easy to use as sniping should have some serious negatives. It doesn't. That's a problem. But thanks for the amazing insight and brilliant tips on how to play this game, anyway. I'm sure all the people who've never played a video game before in their lives found your pro tips very educational. So basically your argument is "omg snipers are taking away my precious shieldz plz nerf"? I don't understand. what's the problem? If you're not getting killed, how does that make sniping easy mode? I think its been covered quite elaborately in this thread that the value of a sniper doesn't come from their KDR, but communication and ability to deny an area to the enemy. Now i'm not 100% sure about this, but if you were hiding in the hills hundreds of meters away, crouching or lying down with a sniper rifle, wouldn't you expect to be reasonably "safe"? you're not visible and you're detached from the battle. of course you would. No serious negatives? is that a joke? I don't know if you've noticed but have you tried using a sniper rifle at close/short-medium range? probability of a kill plummets while the probability of being killed sky rockets. qualifies as a "serious negative" to me. There are also visual cues giving away position, coupled with the fact that theres only 1 or 2 maps in which sniping can be done effectively without concern for other classes. I have spent a lot of time as a sniper, and a lot of time hunting snipers. obviously the threat of a sniper is determined by the skill of the person using it; Its a game mechanic easily adjusted for and I know I never worry about noobs wielding it. But otherwise, cheers for the condescending and brattish response to my otherwise reasonable reply!
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.01.31 00:34:00 - [3] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: You are having trouble comprehending what he is saying so I'll try to give it a go. As you said sniping from the hill top is reasonably "safe". The problem is there are no drawbacks to that safety you point and click just as you would at any range to the same effectiveness. There is no skill or risk involved what so ever to this method and I agree with him that it does not add up. Why should it be possible to avoid the risk other ground troops experience for less isk and without any downside. Are you beginning to understand. Oh dear. I understood what he was saying you arrogant **. MY point was that regardless of how good a snipers KDR is they are not "useful" and have trouble affecting the outcome of a match unless they are contributing to team goals i.e. overwatch of objectives, communicating enemy movements or generally providing specific area denial. This is a drawback of the class as it does not engage in combat the same way an assault or heavy class does (generally to push, capture or defend points by nature), and is very open to be used counter-productively. There is always some form of risk to a sniper, regardless of how relatively "safe" it is. If other snipers aren't hunting for you, then either you're not doing a very good job or they aren't. Maybe there should be another counter class, I personally don't see a problem with a class being its own counter but maybe that's just me. Fivetimes Infinity wrote:** Sniping is "easy mode" because it's very easy to snipe. Happy to help. yet apparently it's not so easy that you get killed frequently........ I could say that because I've had 36/2 games with an AR that it's easy and there's very minimal risk. see how ridiculous that sounds? Also I'm not sure why you seem to think that a sniper should be forced to operate at short range.. that is not the role of a sniper and imo is a broken mechanic of other fps games. Why have a sniper class if you're forced to use it like any other.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.01.31 01:49:00 - [4] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: Clearly still don't understand It has nothing to do with being useful to your team and whether or not you are can't be viewed as a drawback to sniping since many people don't care. Ohhhh right. you're concerned about the KDR and not team mechanics! gotcha! people don't care? I hear all the time about how people have deadweight snipers not doing ** for the team, not helping with objectives. If not used correctly, a sniper is relatively useless. Of course that's relevant and is a good balancing mechanic. This is a team based game where corporations fight each other and are coordinated about it. It's not like hordes of snipers run amok crushing everything in their scopes in pub matches either. Sleepy Zan wrote:** Lets try again, Sniping is too easy, in order to fix that there needs to be added difficulty the more you exploit your range advantage. Yes being counter sniped is the only risk and probably will always be the only risk other than some vehicles, but it's easily avoidable and easy enough to get just as many if not more kills as any other form of infantry for less risk. Added difficulty is required, example: Ballistics added and the return of sway between shots. That would be a good fix. I hope you understand the point now, if not nothing more I can do about you. I understand perfectly what you're saying. I just disagree.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.01.31 02:20:00 - [5] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: Now your just acting idiotic, I meant it's the snipers that don't care, they have an easy way to get kills for very few deaths so why should they care about the rest of the team? snipped personal attacks and inappropriate language - CCP Eterne if the snipers don't care, and are just going for kdr, who gives a **? let them go for their life. They will likely not receive any team support making them easier to kill and not make any meaningful contribution to the outcome of the game. I've generally found its not an issue as adapting my playing style so as not to get killed is not hard. Sleepy Zan wrote:** Why do you disagree? I think that if you're playing against a decent team the class isn't as overpowered as you seem to imply. Of course snipers are going to get ridiculous amounts of kills and no deaths if playing a bunch of blueberries, but the same could be said for any class if played well. A sniper is not that hard to counter if you're any good. I'm sure you've had experience hunting snipers and ending kill streaks. "easy" is relative. I've had some matches where I've found it incredibly easy, and others where it's increasingly difficult to find any momentum.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.02.01 00:29:00 - [6] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: 2100 Angels wrote: MY point was that regardless of how good a snipers KDR is they are not "useful" and have trouble affecting the outcome of a match unless they are contributing to team goals i.e. overwatch of objectives, communicating enemy movements or generally providing specific area denial. This is flat-out wrong, and I have trouble accepting that you seriously think a sniper who gets 20 or 30 kills in a game isn't contributing. Obviously it's not good to have too many snipers, but a couple good snipers currently can decimate an enemy team. Those kills they're getting aren't coming from nowhere. Snipers kill enemy snipers, which helps infantry keep plugging away. Snipers kill that guy who was sneaking up on you and would have otherwise shot you in the back and killed you. Snipers turn that 2v1 into a 1v1 for you. The idea that killing enemies isn't contributing is a fantasy. The only people whose deaths basically don't matter might be someone defending an objective that your team isn't attacking. But as pretty much nobody does that, I'd say upwards of 90% of all kills snipers get will help to thin out the group you'll be attacking, attacked by, or kill the snipers who'd otherwise be doing the same to your own team. So yes, sniping strictly for kills can be useful if you're able to get enough of them. That said, even if it weren't, it wouldn't change the fact that sniping is too easy/safe for how it is powerful, which is the crux of the issue. Perhaps useless was the wrong word to use, maybe "less effective" is better. The situation you've described would be one of the strengths of having a good sniper; keeping pressure on enemy fronts to thin their forces and/or provide other teammates with a higher chance of success in an engagement. I would argue that there would be some overlap in this, but that this is something that a sniper with the goal of winning the game would be more inclined to do. A sniper aiming purely for a high kdr would just pick off the blueberries running around the edges of the map or wandering aimlessly. Obviously the higher the kill count the more effective they become (due to this overlap) but it is still relatively ineffective in comparison to a sniper actively playing the role for the team where there would be less emphasis on getting kills and more on supporting the survivability and strategic goals of the team. how do you define easy? I would argue that this is directly relevant as the measure of how "easy" it is should be tied to how effective they can operate as part of a team rather than as an individual. It could hardly be an "easy" class if the user is making minimal impact on game outcome despite getting a relatively high number of kills. Sleepy Zan wrote: You must not have gone up against any experienced snipers, and I give a ** because it effects overall gameplay and I give how this game turns out. I have gone up against experienced snipers, and I would argue that experienced snipers (probably yourself included) who have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours using the rifle are not representative of a need to increase the difficulty level. Arguably, these are the people who should be ignored in any such debate as, despite their knowledge and experience, are too skilled to be representative of the population. Maybe if the number of snipers achieving a 40/0 or 50/0 kdr consistently jumps up in a big way i might agree with you, but as it stands I don't see any reason to alter the difficulty of the class. The majority of snipers i see are getting ratios of around 15-20 kills and 5-10 deaths, which I don't consider unreasonable. I don't see the point in making a class so much more difficult that unless you have the experience you do with the rifle, you're not going to be competitive. I would say that the sniper currently has a bigger learning curve than most other classes in terms of maintaining survivability or even getting kills, and I see no reason to extend that gap even further. Sleepy Zan wrote:** I never claimed it was OP this is more about the faults in sniping and helping to prevent things such as redline camping. Adding things like bullet drop and travel time creates more difficulty the more you exploit your advantages that previously had no downside. It helps change the tactics of some snipers or makes long range kills more rewarding it depends on their choices. Have you ever sniped or are you making these points from the self centered point of view of one class I have spent a fair amount of time playing as a sniper, assault and occasionally as a heavy. I do agree that redline camping is an issue. Especially on Manus Peak since the red line adjustments for skirmish, but I'm not sure how changing the difficulty of the class will change people from trying to find safe spots unless it becomes an implausible place to snipe from.. which shouldn't be the point. Having said this I love the idea of specific racial roles for snipers that J-Lewis mentioned.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion 9	Posted - 2013.02.01 02:29:00 - [7] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: 2100 Angels wrote: Perhaps useless was the wrong word to use, maybe "less effective" is better. The situation you've described would be one of the strengths of having a good sniper; keeping pressure on enemy fronts to thin their forces and/or provide other teammates with a higher chance of success in an engagement. I would argue that there would be some overlap in this, but that this is something that a sniper with the goal of winning the game would be more inclined to do. A sniper aiming purely for a high kdr would just pick off the blueberries running around the edges of the map or wandering aimlessly. Obviously the higher the kill count the more effective they become (due to this overlap) but it is still relatively ineffective in comparison to a sniper actively playing the role for the team where there would be less emphasis on getting kills and more on supporting the survivability and strategic goals of the team. how do you define easy? I would argue that this is directly relevant as the measure of how "easy" it is should be tied to how effective they can operate as part of a team rather than as an individual. It could hardly be an "easy" class if the user is making minimal impact on game outcome despite getting a relatively high number of kills. You're using imprecise terms. "Less effective". "Minimal impact". What is the average impact of a sniper? Who's to say but CCP? Our perspective is so narrow. What's the difference between running to a point which a sniper just shot dead two enemies at, there to find a single enemy awaiting you, versus there having only been one enemy there in the first place? When I would snipe, sometimes I'd kill an entire squad before they could make it to an objective. During the corp battles, where everyone was communicating and being attentive, I killed three enemies who managed to sneak back to point A on that spires map via dropship. We had nobody defending it, they never even started hacking it, so nobody had any idea -- if they even saw my kill spam -- where those people I killed was. Who knows if people walked away from that fight thinking that damn Fivetimes Infinity, sitting on the whole game, he didn't help at all. This is why attempting to justify the power of snipers as acceptable because they are "relatively ineffective" is unconvincing to me. The real story is more than you're not aware of their true impact, because often times you can't see just what the people they're killing are up to. It can be easy to dismiss snipers if the kills aren't happening right in front of your face. But trust me, the people they're shooting aren't "wandering aimlessly". People don't really do that very much in this game. In any case, whether the capacity of snipers right now -- either to help their team or get kills -- is at a place CCP would like it to be, it doesn't change the fact that the raw mechanics of sniping are overly simplistic. The changes I've been advocating since sometime this past summer have been all about making sniping more engaging. Bullet travel time, bullet drop, scope sway -- these things shouldn't be seen as nerfs. They will help bring snipers in closer to the fighting, make it more exciting for them, more interesting for everyone else. Raising the skill ceiling on a weapon ought not to be lamented, even if at the same time it perhaps raises the skill floor as well. And, at the end of the day, I bet the people who like sniping for the sake of sniping, and not just for the KDR, would appreciate a change that would make getting a kill at 500 m an impressive feat, rather than being just any old shot. I think we could argue this all day, so I'm going to leave it where I have. obviously I made some over simpistic generalisations in regards to team movements, and I've used imprecise terms because these elements are somewhat intangible and unquantifiable. I think we could all agree that in games there are players less useful than others that don't coordinate with the team.... which admittedly is not easy to do in a pub much with the current lack of communication between randoms. I am not opposed to changes provided they are reasonable and don't make the class unplayable for all but those who have devoted excessive time to becoming proficient. There needs to be a limit to the learning curve expected and I'm not sure the current difficulty is at an unacceptable level. Like I said, I love the idea of horizontal changes in regards to changes in the roles of snipers and their equipment outlined by J-Lewis, and having just listened to Nova Knife's podcast with Praetorian and Nullarbor, it looks like CCP is taking steps in that direction with respect to racial dropsuits.