IMO, solution is simple.

Take away from NewBerries Assault - Sniper [STARTER KIT] and put Assault - Logistics [STARTER KIT] at sniper's place.

And the difference between Assault - Logistics [STARTER FIT] and Assault - Triage [STARTER FIT] would be...? (also, it's "FIT" not "KIT")

Also, no. That's almost as bad an idea as removing the AV Starter Fit.

First off... Ballistics added? Really? You do realize that the round from sniper rifles are, as per the description, traveling at over 8000m/sec, or 5.44 miles per second. At the ranges they are used at, there won't be any noticeable travel time or ballistic drop.

Yeah, I did out the math in another thread:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=506214#post506214

The bullet drop at maximum range was around a quarter of a meter at 1km. Given that I can sometimes hit enemy snipers behind cover at extreme range by aiming just above their heads, there may actually be bullet drop.

I keep seeing people say that it's a hitscan weapon, but I'm not sure if there is an official source for that. Realistically, the numbers do come out suggesting that a very, VERY fast projectile would feel that way even if there is travel time. I mean, the travel time at 1km is somewhere between 1 and 2 tenths of a second.

Heck, I have to lead moving targets just because it takes me longer than that to hit the button.

I would very much love to hear from the devs about the mechanics involved in their implementation. That might clear up some confusion for all us.

Examples:

Amarr

Scrambler GÇô Harassment:

- Shortest effective range.
- Highest proportional optimal range.
- Fastest bullet travel time.
- No drop.
- Shots lose damage beyond optimal range and dissipate entirely at effective range.
- Excellent Shield damage, medium Armour damage.
- Lowest recoil.
- Lowest damage.
- Fastest rate of fire.

An Amarrian scrambler sniper rifle would fit very well when it comes to harassing enemies into cover. A combination of extreme projectile speed, low recoil, and the ability to put many shots down range in short time - despite low damage and reach - would enable the user to fill much the same role as the Laser Rifle at sniper ranges but without the same level of sustained fire or crowd control.

---

Minmatar

Artillery GÇô Anti Materiel:

- Medium effective range.
- Shortest proportional optimal range.
- Slowest bullet travel time.
- Extreme drop beyond optimal range, bullet falls straight down at effective range.
- Damage does not decrease at any range.
- Excellent Armour damage, medium Shield damage.
- Highest recoil.
- Highest damage.
- Lowest rate of fire.

A Minmatar artillery sniper rifle would be unmatched at the GÇ£one shot one killGÇ¥ mantra, but sacrifices almost everything else to do so. The extremely low rate of fire means that priority targets are preferred (indeed, users would need to endure slow reloads between shots); the high recoil makes even the models with 2 shots unwieldy; the extreme bullet drop requires significant skill to use on moving targets; finally the mediocre range requires the user to get somewhat close to the target. The upshot is that these rifles can even pose a threat to lightly armoured vehicles.

---

Caldari/Gallente

Railgun GÇô Target softening.

- Farthest effective range.
- Medium proportional optimal range.
- Medium bullet travel time.
- Medium drop beyond optimal range.
- Damage decreases beyond optimal range but never hits 0.
- Medium Shield and Armour damage.
- Medium recoil.
- Medium damage.
- Medium rate of fire.

Both the Caldari and Gallente employ Railgun technology with regards to sniper rifles. Both racial variants focus on softening targets but are generally flexible. The Caldari version trades some rate of fire and damage in exchange for range and faster projectiles with less drop; making it more suited to finish off wounded or weak targets. The Gallente version leans the other way: sacrificing range and projectile speed for increased damage and rate of fire with increased drop; for applying initial hits on general infantry, or additional support against hardened targets.

IMO, solution is simple.

Take away from NewBerries Assault - Sniper [STARTER KIT] and put Assault - Logistics [STARTER KIT] at sniper's place.

First off... Ballistics added? Really? You do realize that the round from sniper rifles are, as per the description, traveling at over 8000m/sec, or 5.44 miles per second. At the ranges they are used at, there won't be any noticeable travel time or ballistic drop.

Second... I hate using the sniper rifle, it's not really my play style, but in New Eden there's a saying... "Adapt or die".

I keep seeing people say that it's a hitscan weapon, but I'm not sure if there is an official source for that. Realistically, the numbers do come out suggesting that a very, VERY fast projectile would feel that way even if there is travel time. I mean, the travel time at 1km is somewhere between 1 and 2 tenths of a second.

Heck, I have to lead moving targets just because it takes me longer than that to hit the button.

I would very much love to hear from the devs about the mechanics involved in their implementation. That might clear up some confusion for all us.

*snipped personal attacks and inappropriate language* - CCP Eterne

if the snipers don't care, and are just going for kdr, who gives a ****? let them go for their life. They will likely not receive any team support making them easier to kill and not make any meaningful contribution to the outcome of the game. I've generally found its not an issue as adapting my playing style so as not to get killed is not hard.

I think that if you're playing against a decent team the class isn't as overpowered as you seem to imply. Of course snipers are going to get ridiculous amounts of kills and no deaths if playing a bunch of blueberries, but the same could be said for any class if played well. A sniper is not that hard to counter if you're any good. I'm sure you've had experience hunting snipers and ending kill streaks. "easy" is relative. I've had some matches where I've found it incredibly easy, and others where it's increasingly difficult to find any momentum.

It's fluff description. If CCP were so inclined they could either rewrite the fiction for sniper rifles, or they could simply add in something that's the equivalent of ballistics, albeit designed to be more congruent with the rifle description. Also, it's 2500m/sec not 8000. The bottom line, though, is that the design of the rifle being constrained by the flavour text some CCP writer-type-person crafted for this particular gun is pretty ludicrous.



"Adapt or die" does not mean that CCP has no imperative to fix things that are clearly not designed well. It shouldn't be used as a smoke screen and excuse for apathy. There is a problem with sniping. I'm advocating changes to that end. Sayings from EVE don't factor into it.



There really isn't any confusion. Go find a turret at your max range (you'll know it's max range because the dot will have just turned red when the target is within range) and pull the trigger. You'll instantly do damage.

But anyway, as I said to the other guy, the fluff is just fluff. Sniper rifles with ballistic considerations have worked very well in other FPS games with very wide, open areas to them. Planetside 1, Planetside 2, both games benefit from such an implementation of sniping.

This is flat-out wrong, and I have trouble accepting that you seriously think a sniper who gets 20 or 30 kills in a game isn't contributing. Obviously it's not good to have too many snipers, but a couple good snipers currently can decimate an enemy team. Those kills they're getting aren't coming from nowhere. Snipers kill enemy snipers, which helps infantry keep plugging away. Snipers kill that guy who was sneaking up on you and would have otherwise shot you in the back and killed you. Snipers turn that 2v1 into a 1v1 for you. The idea that killing enemies isn't contributing is a fantasy. The only people whose deaths basically don't matter might be someone defending an objective that your team isn't attacking. But as pretty much nobody does that, I'd say upwards of 90% of all kills snipers get will help to thin out the group you'll be attacking, attacked by, or kill the snipers who'd otherwise be doing the same to your own team.

So yes, sniping strictly for kills can be useful if you're able to get enough of them. That said, even if it weren't, it wouldn't change the fact that sniping is too easy/safe for how it is powerful, which is the crux of the issue.

You must not have gone up against any experienced snipers, and I give a **** because it effects overall gameplay and I give **** how this game turns out.

I never claimed it was OP this is more about the faults in sniping and helping to prevent things such as redline camping. Adding things like bullet drop and travel time creates more difficulty the more you exploit your advantages that previously had no downside. It helps change the tactics of some snipers or makes long range kills more rewarding it depends on their choices. Have you ever sniped or are you making these points from the self centered point of view of one class

Perhaps useless was the wrong word to use, maybe "less effective" is better. The situation you've described would be one of the strengths of having a good sniper; keeping pressure on enemy fronts to thin their forces and/or provide other teammates with a higher chance of success in an engagement. I would argue that there would be some overlap in this, but that this is something that a sniper with the goal of *winning* the game would be more inclined to do. A sniper aiming purely for a high kdr would just pick off the blueberries running around the edges of the map or wandering aimlessly. Obviously the higher the kill count the more effective they become (due to this overlap) but it is still relatively ineffective in comparison to a sniper actively playing the role for the team where there would be less emphasis on getting kills and more on supporting the survivability and strategic goals of the team. how do you define easy? I would argue that this is directly relevant as the measure of how "easy" it is should be tied to how effective they can operate as part of a team rather than as an individual. It could hardly be an "easy" class if the user is making minimal impact on game outcome despite getting a relatively high number of kills.

You're using imprecise terms. "Less effective". "Minimal impact". What is the average impact of a sniper? Who's to say but CCP? Our perspective is so narrow. What's the difference between running to a point which a sniper just shot dead two enemies at, there to find a single enemy awaiting you, versus there having only been one enemy there in the first place? When I would snipe, sometimes I'd kill an entire squad before they could make it to an objective. During the corp battles, where everyone was communicating and being attentive, I killed three enemies who managed to sneak back to point A on that spires map via dropship. We had nobody defending it, they never even started hacking it, so nobody had any idea -- if they even saw my kill spam -- where those people I killed was. Who knows if people walked away from that fight thinking that damn Fivetimes Infinity, sitting on the whole game, he didn't help at all.

This is why attempting to justify the power of snipers as acceptable because they are "relatively ineffective" is unconvincing to me. The real story is more than you're not aware of their true impact, because often times you can't see just what the people they're killing are up to. It can be easy to dismiss snipers if the kills aren't happening right in front of your face. But trust me, the people they're shooting aren't "wandering aimlessly". People don't really do that very much in this game.

In any case, whether the capacity of snipers right now -- either to help their team or get kills -- is at a place CCP would like it to be, it doesn't change the fact that the raw mechanics of sniping are overly simplistic. The changes I've been advocating since sometime this past summer have been all about making sniping more engaging. Bullet travel time, bullet drop, scope sway -- these things shouldn't be seen as nerfs. They will help bring snipers in closer to the fighting, make it more exciting for them, more interesting for everyone else. Raising the skill ceiling on a weapon ought not to be lamented, even if at the same time it perhaps raises the skill floor as well. And, at the end of the day, I bet the people who like sniping for the sake of sniping, and not just for the KDR, would appreciate a change that would make getting a kill at 500 m an impressive feat, rather than being just any old shot.