I agree on this and the driver seat should also be low and have a small FOV. I mean it's a tank .. why does the driver have the same FOV as a LAV driver?

Nanobots, or very small flying robots. It'd be stupid to limit the situational awareness of your tankers wouldn't it?

Would the tank then be able to seat four or would it have to give up a turret?

bad idea
what ******* game do u know with tanks that doesnt have the tank driver using the main gun
dumb suggestion, not a good way to balance tanks

Dropships =/= tanks
Dropships = transport chopper from BF3

Would the tank then be able to seat four or would it have to give up a turret?

So a greater manpower commitment and a more attractive target in exchange for a feature that is (supposedly but not necessarily) a buff for organized teams and a nerf for unorganized ones? This would mean that a squad of four couldn't roll in four tanks anymore and could only really run two tanks (is this intended?). It would also mean that any random who jumped in your tank before your buddy could massively gimp your performance due to a lack of skills and no comms (which is true for dropships but I don't think they are being designed with the same priorities).

With reference to your comparison to dropships. I think that the job breakdown may have more to do with the difference between combat and troop transport roles.

I would be interested to know if tank drivers would consider having two people split these responsibilities would be a buff at all.
Communication delays versus multitasking may make this a nerf even for good teams.

From a practical standpoint I can't see this working without at least the ability to kick or rearrange passengers due to the fact that good communication won't stop people from jumping in your tank and stopping you from teaming up. While I'm intrigued by the idea of vehicles that require crews rather than pilots, so to speak, I'm also concerned that removing a role that many players find rewarding may be a little harsh.

Sounds like 4 seats for all 4 of a full squad.

So a greater manpower commitment and a more attractive target in exchange for a feature that is (supposedly but not necessarily) a buff for organized teams and a nerf for unorganized ones? This would mean that a squad of four couldn't roll in four tanks anymore and could only really run two tanks (is this intended?). It would also mean that any random who jumped in your tank before your buddy could massively gimp your performance due to a lack of skills and no comms (which is true for dropships but I don't think they are being designed with the same priorities).

With reference to your comparison to dropships. I think that the job breakdown may have more to do with the difference between combat and troop transport roles.

I would be interested to know if tank drivers would consider having two people split these responsibilities would be a buff at all.
Communication delays versus multitasking may make this a nerf even for good teams.

From a practical standpoint I can't see this working without at least the ability to kick or rearrange passengers due to the fact that good communication won't stop people from jumping in your tank and stopping you from teaming up. While I'm intrigued by the idea of vehicles that require crews rather than pilots, so to speak, I'm also concerned that removing a role that many players find rewarding may be a little harsh.

Sounds like 4 seats for all 4 of a full squad.

Many current tank abusers might be against this, but it's actually pretty reasonable suggestion that improves:
Team-work, somewhat balances vehicles and potentially offers new character builds like gunner, driver etc.

The obvious question:
why are tanks the only vehicles in the game that only need one person to both drive and operate the main turret.

- You need 2 players to get the most out from simple LAV.
- Drop-ship without gunners can only fly. Drop-ship without pilot, can't fly.

Why not just make Tanks work in similar fashion?
if you want to use the main turret you need to be the gunner, if you want to drive the tank you better be on the drivers position.
Since tanks seem to require loads of teamwork to take down, why do they require none to operate?

This would also solve few other problems as well.
- Unable to see where you are going due to slow turret / camera turning speed.
- Driver should be the only one that has the ability to see the tank from 3rd person perspective.
- Upcoming Smoke grenades and EMP grenades could severely hinder the gunners due to poor visibility / turret camera system failing.
- Boost the usefulness of many tank modules like the speed module (due to a driver and gunner being separate roles, you could drive the tank while gunners handle the shooting. )

bad idea
what ******* game do u know with tanks that doesnt have the tank driver using the main gun
dumb suggestion, not a good way to balance tanks

Dropships =/= tanks
Dropships = transport chopper from BF3

bad idea
what ******* game do u know with tanks that doesnt have the tank driver using the main gun

So u want to buff tanks by allowing the driver to just drive and the gunner of the main turret not worrying about where hes going.

Currently tanks are handicapped by the fact drivers need look whre there going but can only look at where there shootng so ost have to stand still to get a clean shot but now u want to make it so the can keep moving while someone else shoots your ass making tank harder to kill yet easyer for them to kill u

Ya great idea please ccp ingnore this idea

So its better that the driver can drive and gun the tank by himself, mowing down large numbers of enemy players without even needing to coordinate with his team? That's part of what you're missing here. Without separated positions, a tank is a one man win-cannon. The only way to stem the tide of people complaining about them is to do what they should have done in the first place: make the HAV a teamwork dependent vehicle just like the LAV.

No im saying if this is done u have made tanks harder to hit cause the driver dont need to sit still to look where hes shooting make the maingun seperate ive just allowed the tank to fire while moving without making a drive mistake and getting stuck. Im not saying something cant be done im saying this aint the way ur making tank warfare easyer in the long run just.harder today cause many havent figured out there not playing cod or bf3

So instead of worry about driving, not getting stuck on terrain, gunning and running reppers/boosters, I can worry about just driving and repping or just worry about gunning. All this is going to do is make tanks MORE powerful, because you have twice the amount of brainpower being used to operate the vehicle, and freeing the gunner from having to drive properly running boosters and reppers to keep the thing alive.

I am for this idea but the driver should be instead of the front gunner if the top gunner gets a 360 degree view.
The driver should also have two or three small straight forward looking guns too like the WW2 tanks had.

In first person view the driver could have a cockpit view where he has small screens that show the view from the turrets, the front view, a map and a large screen that shows the view from a camera on the turret. That could look like this or this.With the right stick you can look around on the large screen.

The main gunner could be the tank commander and have a cockpit view too. There he could have one screen with the view from the turret and one with a overview map where he can set attack and rally targets for the crew of the tank. He can also give these orders with L2+L3. You steer the cursor on the map with the left stick.

I don't see in any way how this would be a nerf or a buff to tanks. They would still be tough, powerful, lumbering behemoths, still have all the same stats, still have the same effectiveness.

Instead it's a nerf to solo kill whoring, and a buff to teamwork. I'm 100% fine with it taking a team to kill a tank if it takes a team to field one.

I posted about this in the general dicussion without looking first, i'm sorry OP *sobs*

Anyways, I completely agree with this with the addition of the driver being the tank commander; having the ability to kick players if they're not doing an adequate job or if they're not part of the orginal tank crew.

I really don't like this idea. Driving a big, slow vehicle and doing nothing but drive it is incredibly boring. Anyone who played Planetside 1 knows what I'm talking about. Footing the bill for an expensive vehicle, spending all those SP on it, and not ever getting a kill for your effort except for a couple times you run someone over would be terrible. I understand that tanks are a bit too much now, but the solution isn't to make driving a tank a thankless, gloryless, boring way to play the game.

I like the idea of 4 in a tank makes it really really worth killing.

Well then, assign the forward mounted turret to the driver. That way you don't need a full 4 people to operate it, but the driver is still incapable of dominating a map on his lonesome.

This is still a very lazy way to approach the problem. Someone dumping millions of ISK and SP into a tank wants to get some kind of payoff. Shooting a small missile turret ain't it. The way you make tankers need to help of other players is by making tanks vulnerable to infantry if they're not supported by their own infantry. Tank drivers should feel like badasses. Everyone should feel like a badass. Making driving a tank not fun is a horrible way to approach the issue of tanks being overpowered.

Many current tank abusers might be against this, but it's actually pretty reasonable suggestion that improves:
Team-work, somewhat balances vehicles and potentially offers new character builds like gunner, driver etc.

The obvious question:
why are tanks the only vehicles in the game that only need one person to both drive and operate the main turret.

- You need 2 players to get the most out from simple LAV.
- Drop-ship without gunners can only fly. Drop-ship without pilot, can't fly.

Why not just make Tanks work in similar fashion?
if you want to use the main turret you need to be the gunner, if you want to drive the tank you better be on the drivers position.
Since tanks seem to require loads of teamwork to take down, why do they require none to operate?

This would also solve few other problems as well.
- Unable to see where you are going due to slow turret / camera turning speed.
- Driver should be the only one that has the ability to see the tank from 3rd person perspective.
- Upcoming Smoke grenades and EMP grenades could severely hinder the gunners due to poor visibility / turret camera system failing.
- Boost the usefulness of many tank modules like the speed module (due to a driver and gunner being separate roles, you could drive the tank while gunners handle the shooting. )

bad idea
what ******* game do u know with tanks that doesnt have the tank driver using the main gun
dumb suggestion, not a good way to balance tanks

Dropships =/= tanks
Dropships = transport chopper from BF3

Lot of tank hatred going on here.

LAV's are useful without weapons. Honestly, I wish there was a way to NOT have a turret on an LAV, just to use it as a fast travel device. You can use them to drop people behind enemy lines, use them as portable spawn points, etc. They are extremely multipurpose and the turret is just a 'bonus'. You can use them for multiple roles even without their weapon.

HAV's, aka Tanks, are not useful without weapons. Their only advantage is a big gun and scads of hit points. The small turrets are a bonus. If the main gun didn't exist on a tank it would be absolutely pointless. It's slow, can't go over as much terrain, and is easy to see and target from a distance as it crawls toward you. More importantly, if the driver did NOT have control of the gun, it would be mandatory that the vehicle have a second person. Otherwise it would be useless. One person calling one in would basically have a large, slow, armored crate.

Dropships are not designed to be weapons of destruction. Their primary purpose is to move troops. Comparing them to tanks is outright silly.

Let the guy who's forking over a quarter-of-a-million to a million isk for a tank both drive and shoot it at the same time.

it would be mandatory that the vehicle have a second person. Otherwise it would be useless. One person calling one in would basically have a large, slow, armored crate.

Do you really believe the average player would find tanks more enjoyable if all they could do was drive it and maybe shoot its small turret, as opposed to driving it and shooting the main gun?

Let the guy who's forking over a quarter-of-a-million to a million isk for a tank both drive and shoot it at the same time.

+1 i think its a good idea to separate the driver from main gun as well. The only thing i see as a problem, is who the hell would want to just drive the tank the whole time. You would end up with a million gunners, and no drivers!... lol UNLESS... you can somehow make it to where you have to start as a driver then move up as you skill up into gunner of one of the smaller turrets, then up to the main gun. That would be kinda interesting.

I fully agree to this separation. I've been advocating it for a long time.

Yes, there are many ways to balance tanks right now but none of them really leave the sandbox feeling Dust is build around. The problem isn't the maps, the turn speed, armour or any of those arguements.
The problem is that people are treating tanks like super-heavy suits for soloing with. Even the tankers with gunners on board retain 95% of the vehicle's power and have 100% of the thinking going on. The gunners are usually just people trying not to die while getting more kills.

Tanks are a team asset and should be operated by a squad. Not soloed.
Also, nobody said the driver HAS TO BE the owner. Try thinking differently.
The owner should have lock-out abilities and get to choose who gets in but he himself can take any role within.

Another issue is squad sizes and team limitations. We are currently limited to teams of 4 squads where each squad is 4 players. We have no options for partitioning differently.
A tank should really be a 3 person squad with the 4th spot empty. We should also have the ability to play with squad sizes a bit for say 2-6 players per squad. Teams should not have a squad limit at all.

And the last issue with tank drivers and the "fun" they're having is the rewards. Currently it's a crap job being a driver or pilot. You get no WP for most actions. As I understand it, this is being worked on and drivers/pilots should get a lot more in the next build (not update).

That's my 2 cents.

This idea needs to stay up high :D

One thing that needs implementing before this, is some sort of locking system for vehicles. This NEEDS implementing irrelevant quite frankly. As it stands, there's absolutely nothing from stopping people from stealing vehicles worth 3 mill isk or just hopping in to steal assists from you, when you could have a guy on comms instead.

Mobius:The money you spend on an HAV is not a good justification for keeping it from being what it should be: a cooperative vehicle. It should be useless without a second person

Mobius: This game is designed around teamplay, and one-man tanks just helps to emphasize the kind of lone-wolfing that leads to your team losing matches.

Kyy: That's the whole point of this suggestion.
If tanks need multiple people to take down, they should require multiple people to operate.

Goric: It's not my problem what "the average player" finds enjoyable. The point isn't to make tank driving fun for everybody. Despite the apparently popular view, this isn't a game about tanks. There will be some people who enjoy and take pride in just driving a tank--like the people who enjoy and take pride in flying dropships.
The guys who are piloting dropships are forking over the same kind of cash. Therefore I don't find this argument convincing

Planetside 1, for example, and many of the current players of Planetside 2 have been protesting the change to a driver controlled turret, and asking for the old system back. You won't find a single tank in reality that has the turret controlled by the driver, because it gimps the effectiveness of the vehicle. And yes, I know this is a game, but the same principles apply in the management of the vehicle. Separating the two functions into two positions would increase the viability of the vehicle, and also make them more of a team asset than a one-man force-multiplier.

Why? Why should it be useless without a second person? Please explain this. Its purpose is not served by it being a mandatorily multiplayer vehicle.


It's funny that you say that. Because, when I play matches with a tank, I don't lone wolf at all. That's the fastest way to get killed. I find the knots of guys moving to kill others (deathmatch) or capturing the points and support them. 80% of the time, this leads to my team winning matches. Unless the enemy team has a competant dropship, tank pilot, or AV guys, in which case it's just a standard case of combined arms. Incidentally... that's called "team play", and I can do it without corp/fixed-squad backup.


Except... they don't. One good player can do it with a proper AV fit (one in a speedy suit instead of a heavy). One decent player can do it with... another tank. It's not like the tank guy is unique. Most of MY tanking is done in Militia-fit equipment (except the turret and Nanos... I'd LOVE a Militia nano).


No, but you're making it the average player's problem what YOU find enjoyable, so I don't see much difference.

This game isn't about tanks. It's about warfare, with a variety of options. Tanks are an option. Some people don't like that one person can pilot it. However, forcing it to be a mandatory co-op vehicle is not going to make things better.

As for the dropship comment, check my post. This is already covered. It's not a 'flying tank', a 'gunship', or an 'attack aircraft'. It's a DROPship. It's designed to drop troops. It's not designed as a warship. Modern militaries often have troop-hauling helicopters with door gunners. That doesn't make them attack ships, it makes them troop carriers, exactly like the Dropships they inspired.
If you'd like a role-based counter to your commentary, then consider this: tank can't fly across the map in fifteen seconds and drop 6 guys off to complete annihilate any enemies and take the point they were guarding, either. That's extremely powerful. It also requires teamwork, as it should. Incidentally, a good dropship and gunner can hound a tank to the point where it really can't do much.

If CCP made an attack aircraft (and I hope they do), I seriously hope it can be piloted and fight with a single character. For the record, I hope they make some fast ground attack craft that can do the same. I also wouldn't mind an armored APC that has like 1.5 times a tank's health and only the 2 small turrets, but can hold 5 other guys. A 'ground dropship', as it were. Proably won't happen, but still.

---

As an aside, I agree with Tyas. Vehicles should require skills to USE them, not to FIT them. If you don't have the skills for a missile turret or a Gunnlogi, you should not be able to hop in one and go joyriding in it. In addition, you SHOULD be able to fit things you can't get into, if for no other reason than build experimentation. This would also help 'sort' people so that those with improper skills can't hop into your ride.

We all must of been low level because only once when we all manage to hit the tank at roughly the same time did we see his shield dip. To keep the story short, we lost. But it was breathtaking sight that even outnumbering the opposition and all with anti-tanking weaponry, we couldn't even scare the tank to retreat, left a funny feeling.

Now im not one to judge whether the tank is overpowered, thats the natural of a rpgmmo type game such as this. Perhaps there is a problem with the noob, standard swarm? Or maybe the lack or any other alternative weaponry available for a low level team? Or tactics?

Why? Why should it be useless without a second person? Please explain this. Its purpose is not served by it being a mandatorily multiplayer vehicle.

This game isn't about tanks. It's about warfare, with a variety of options. Tanks are an option. Some people don't like that one person can pilot it. However, forcing it to be a mandatory co-op vehicle is not going to make things better.

Except... they don't. One good player can do it with a proper AV fit (one in a speedy suit instead of a heavy). One decent player can do it with... another tank. It's not like the tank guy is unique. Most of MY tanking is done in Militia-fit equipment (except the turret and Nanos... I'd LOVE a Militia nano).

i agree. any way when i bought my tank-wich blew up 30 secs after drop in btw-i was trying to drive and shoot at the same time and failed completely. if they do implement this system i hope they make the main gun quicker to turn.

I still love this Idea so much

Would you drive the tank or shoot the main turret?

Would you drive the tank or shoot the main turret?

Tbh I would be trying to set the dam thing on fire.

If I had to be in it tho I would be the driver 90% of the time and 10% main turret just to mix it up a little.

Also + 1 Mobius Wyvern because i know deep down your starting to see the light

Tyras Borg got a like 2

Man its strange handing out likes to known tank drivers lol

i agree. any way when i bought my tank-wich blew up 30 secs after drop in btw-i was trying to drive and shoot at the same time and failed completely. if they do implement this system i hope they make the main gun quicker to turn.

Pretty sure there's already fast turning variants in game. They are very power hungry however.

Although with the bugged skills not working at the minute, your very limited as to what you can fit on your tanks power and CPU wise. It's certainly not like last build, now you really have to make choices as the power just isn't there.

No, but you're making it the average player's problem what YOU find enjoyable, so I don't see much difference.

This game isn't about tanks. It's about warfare, with a variety of options. Tanks are an option. Some people don't like that one person can pilot it. However, forcing it to be a mandatory co-op vehicle is not going to make things better.

As an aside, I agree with Tyas. Vehicles should require skills to USE them, not to FIT them. If you don't have the skills for a missile turret or a Gunnlogi, you should not be able to hop in one and go joyriding in it. In addition, you SHOULD be able to fit things you can't get into, if for no other reason than build experimentation. This would also help 'sort' people so that those with improper skills can't hop into your ride.

It got popular by LAVs and Dropships being forced to have multiple people to be effective, while the most effective weapon on the field only needs one person ?

The obvious question:
why are tanks the only vehicles in the game that only need one person to both drive and operate the main turret.

- You need 2 players to get the most out from simple LAV.
- Drop-ship without gunners can only fly. Drop-ship without pilot, can't fly.

Why not just make Tanks work in similar fashion?
if you want to use the main turret you need to be the gunner, if you want to drive the tank you better be on the drivers position.
Since tanks seem to require loads of teamwork to take down, why do they require none to operate?

^this

you lads just want to be lazy and drain on another person that worked his skill up even tho he needs ALOT more SP and then you wonna use their main turet? roflmao

you want to shoot with the big gun?

1 then why does the tank driver needs to get all the skills to be able to fit them?
2 get ur own tank skills, since the cost to get them is ALOT more then infantry 12x modifiers, 8x modifiers... you need over 10 milion SP into tanks to have a "decent" tank

if you got 10 mil SP into infantry, ur little brat is , maxed out to its limits while a tank driver is barely halfway max.

HAV to lvl 4 : 1,7 mil SP
HAV to lvl 5 : over 3 mil SP


cost difference infantry maxed out : 150K ISK
Tank halfway maxed out : over 1,5 mil / tank (Saaris / sury the hull alone is already 1,3 mil without any fit; decent full fit the tank costs over 3 mil each

you lads just want to be lazy and drain on another person that worked his skill up even tho he needs ALOT more SP and then you wonna use their main turet? roflmao

Not really, just easier to operate provided that you have someone who acts as your gunner/driver. But at the expense of heavily reduced (at least) offensive FOV and non-synchronized movement.

Here's a few situations that could happen:
- A Long range AV tank is blasting you but main gunner is completely oblivious from where.
You: "IT'S THERE!" Him: "WHERE!?" You: THERE! *boom*
- Light weight tank with speed modules and fast turrets is constantly attacking you from god knows where, and your main turret is constantly loosing the track of it.
- LAV is circling your tank faster than your main-gun can turn and you only have one gunner.
- swarms out of ******* nowhere.

4-players in a single tank can be a tough thing to take down, especially alone.. but that's a whole squad, it should be a force to be reckoned with. Besides 4-players can only cover 3 directions + drivers view, still providing plenty of blinds spots for hostile tanks and av-infantry to use.

A heavy drop suit is 4 million sp just for the suit. Another 2.5 for the gun alone. Not including the other skills needed to unlock the suit and gun so your argument doesn't hold much water. Our gun cost 140, risk per death plus the suit 200 something. average deaths to a tank filled match is four. So our suits cost more than your tanks. Per match!

Wait - so - it's detrimental to have things act like they do in Eve what with turrets not being able to track fast moving targets?

Wow. Man, we need to go tell CCP Soundwave this and have him change all of the combat mechanics of Eve Online -right now-

OK, I only read first 3 pages of this thread so if it's already suggested, I'm sorry

How about a compensation ? Let's devide HAV into 2 category a light tank and a heavy tank.

1. Light Tank will operate the same as it was. Single player both driver and gunner just like any other FPS. In turn, this kind of tank will be balanced accordingly. A paper tank just like any FPS tank out there.

2. Heavy Tank will require a squad to man them. Just like what we suggested in this thread. This kind of tank can be uber killing machine like it currently is but need more men to operate, more teamwork require and more rewarding when killed.

PS: This way everyone get what they want. Solo FPS tanker got to drive & shoot. AV tank hater got some easy tank to kill. Hardcore team-based tanker got to work with his friend and a tank that can actually tank something.

Don't agree with 1-man light tank tough, it would render lavs fairly useless. Maybe if it's just front turret (APC with front HMG) or any vehicle with small turret + A.I Drone module or something.

This topic is pretty null and void now it seems. What's the point in creating well thought out and decent suggestions for alternatives if all we get is a cheap and nasty fix?.

I liked this idea a lot, but CCP think it's better to appease whiners it seems. At this early stage in a games life the fact that the devs are already pandering to a whiny player base is more than a little worrying frankly.

Maybe this might be a good idea, but how many of the vehicles in this game let the driver shoot something? I am still new at this.

Many current tank abusers might be against this, but it's actually pretty reasonable suggestion that improves:
Team-work, somewhat balances vehicles and potentially offers new character builds like gunner, driver etc.

The obvious question:
why are tanks the only vehicles in the game that only need one person to both drive and operate the main turret.

- You need 2 players to get the most out from simple LAV.
- Drop-ship without gunners can only fly. Drop-ship without pilot, can't fly.

Why not just make Tanks work in similar fashion?
if you want to use the main turret you need to be the gunner, if you want to drive the tank you better be on the drivers position.
Since tanks seem to require loads of teamwork to take down, why do they require none to operate?

This would also solve few other problems as well.
- Unable to see where you are going due to slow turret / camera turning speed.
- Driver should be the only one that has the ability to see the tank from 3rd person perspective.
- Upcoming Smoke grenades and EMP grenades could severely hinder the gunners due to poor visibility / turret camera system failing.
- Boost the usefulness of many tank modules like the speed module (due to a driver and gunner being separate roles, you could drive the tank while gunners handle the shooting. )

stupidest idea i have ever heard tbqh.....
you even posted why it is a TERRIBLE idea..."Unable to see where you are going due to slow turret / camera turning speed."

so by seperating the driver from the main gun you expect to make the tank weaker...yea not gunna work that way.

1) will make shooting infantry much easier, since gunner can just spam the cannon instead of you know having to worry about watching where he is driving and avoiding obstacles. can focus on av infantry while not having to worry about backing into a hill and getting stuck.
2) yes let me train a ton of SP then spend 1.5mil to fit this tank that im not gunna get a kill with....geniussssss. seriously ppl train for a tank for a reason..to be able to fire the main gun and farm infantry...you dont like it train some AV and make the tank pop rather easy if you spend the points on swarms or forge instead of lolprotoweapons or iwinnades.
3) comparing it to TRANSPORT vehicles...tank is a COMBAT vehicle, meaning it is designed to have the driver SHOOTING the main gun.
4) boost speed modules..what?? so the tank will be faster, driver can just drive, gunner can just shoot, and the tank is more balanced this way

tanks are balanced more due to the driver having to go stationary to make accurate shots. take away the turret and a tank is never gunna stop driving. forge guns destroy tanks so easily because the tanks have to stop to turn since they are trying to shoot infantry AND drive. dont know how many i have made drive into a building or hill and get stuck so i can easily blow them up

the way tanks are implemented in FPS works. the reason so many ppl have been complainin is imho that they spec into nothing but assault and have no AV weaponry and they get mad that their prototype ar cant take out a tank. and yes it takes a team in real life to operate a tank i know how that works. but this is a video game, and a futuristic one at that. no need to seperate the gunner from the driver, when it is working.

also seems to be getting lost that the tank is not designed to be infantry transport like the dropship and lav. thats why those 2 have no guns for driver.

while that works the major problem i see is ppl wont call in a tank becuae they cost 1+ mil for a good fit plus they arent guarenteed to have good gunners so it will be a rolling death trap

stupidest idea i have ever heard tbqh.....
you even posted why it is a TERRIBLE idea..."Unable to see where you are going due to slow turret / camera turning speed."

so by seperating the driver from the main gun you expect to make the tank weaker...yea not gunna work that way.

1) will make shooting infantry much easier, since gunner can just spam the cannon instead of you know having to worry about watching where he is driving and avoiding obstacles. can focus on av infantry while not having to worry about backing into a hill and getting stuck.
2) yes let me train a ton of SP then spend 1.5mil to fit this tank that im not gunna get a kill with....geniussssss. seriously ppl train for a tank for a reason..to be able to fire the main gun and farm infantry...you dont like it train some AV and make the tank pop rather easy if you spend the points on swarms or forge instead of lolprotoweapons or iwinnades.
3) comparing it to TRANSPORT vehicles...tank is a COMBAT vehicle, meaning it is designed to have the driver SHOOTING the main gun.
4) boost speed modules..what?? so the tank will be faster, driver can just drive, gunner can just shoot, and the tank is more balanced this way

tanks are balanced more due to the driver having to go stationary to make accurate shots. take away the turret and a tank is never gunna stop driving. forge guns destroy tanks so easily because the tanks have to stop to turn since they are trying to shoot infantry AND drive. dont know how many i have made drive into a building or hill and get stuck so i can easily blow them up

You Sir have not really understood the meaning of this thread. It's about creating complexity similar to dropships and LAVs, NOT about nerfing something. YES, a well coordinated tank with gunner and driver will work more effectively, BUT also requires more coordination and would resemble the tanks, as we know them, much better.

Oh and btw .. Tanks are support vehicles not Combat Vehicles. They are similar to the Cavalry in medieval times. They come in and flank the enemy or break through their lines. They do assault and need both crew and support concerning fuel and ammo (unlike the DUST tanks), but they can't win a fight on their own. With the current state of the game it seems the role has already been corrected by making them rely on infantry around them to stop forge gunners and swarmers.

Yep .. he didn't read it ... effective vehicles should be a team effort. They should reward team play and coordination. the stronger the vehicle the more crew (seperate driver and gunnner) or support (ammo and refueling) it should need. That's the background of this thread.

FOLLOWING YOUR CAPS ITS ABOUT TANKS NEED TWO PEOPLE TO OPERATE. SINGLE PERSON VEHICLES WITH ATTACK FUNCTION SHOULD REQUIRE REFUELING, CAPS OR AMMUNITION. THIS IS THE INTENT TO SEPERATE ONE PERSON IN A DROPSUIT FROM A TEAM THAT SPORTS VEHICLES.

lol clearly never driven a tank
tanks need gunners to survive aka teamwork
turrets trackin were nerfed
a sole tank will not realise its full potential
a tank with 2 gunners however aka using teamwork uses it to full potential
but im not about to sit here and discuss how we operate tank crews

so again the intent of this thread still fails as tanks do currently take teamwork
same way MTACs and Fighters and gunships will

yall seem to be under the delusion that u must have 2 ppl to operate it that that makes it take teamwork
which again proves my point that most of the ppl posting these suggestions are a bunch of pubstars with little competitive experience. In organised corp v corp play it will teamwork , fighters will have to coordinate with ground troops, gunships as well, tanks already need gunners to effectively work

understand the concept of teamwork and stop judging teamwork based on pub games with randomly organised teams ur never gonna get teamwork on any highscale there the way yall seem to imagine it will happen.

seperating the main gun from driver makes tanking easier, 2 corp mates can now run riot as the driver can just focus on driving and now the tank is MORE mobile as it will be moving AND shooting all the time

Ya'll thinking this change is good, need to go play EVE for awhile.

1 person, in a pod, controlling an entire Battleship (or Titan) full of guns and drones, using camera drones for the external view (so the tanks have this, but limited to the turrets facing), and nobody else.

Tanks, have at least 2 turrets for co-gunners. Who's the ones most likely to die when the tank does? THEM! (Cause the driver saw the shields die and bailed and ran)

Currently, the driver is more likely to die with the tank cause he's busy fighting it.

In Dust, the driver must be the one doing the maingun shooting. Why? Cause he PAID for it. People who buy tanks, don't get kills if they can't control any guns now, can they? If you can't understand that, buy an Impact and drive it around with a guy on the turret till it blows up (and no, you can't run anybody over).

A BETTER suggestion, would be to give the LAVs and Dropships pilot controlled weapons. Machine guns on the LAVs, and the same, or even rocket launchers, for the Dropships (would take practice for doing strafing runs I think).

Impacts can still run people over. Dropships before Precursor used to, but now take too much damage (and draw Swarm Spam like you wouldn't belive). Have you ever TRIED to run someone over in a tank? Hard as HECK, unless they ain't looking your way, and standing dead still.

But tanks, need the guy driving to get kills, or else they are useless. If you pay 500k ISK or more for a tank, and can't get any kills, but die when it blows up and you didn't get out in time, it's worthless.

If you separate the driver from the turret, sure as HECK, some putz will get into the turret just to 'shoot the big gun' and never let the driver have it.

Separate it, and you better make it so the driver is the only one who can get into the turret (making the tank a fixed gun), and only the main turret user able to switch to driver. Either that, or give the tank owner the ability to 'LOCK' his tank, so nobody else can get in.

If tanks are changed like the OP wants, you'll have NERFd people who use them. They'd then stop buying them. Only squads would use them at most.

The OP should have been slapped upside his head but the one blaring contradiction his suggestion entails: The DRIVER most likely bought the tank!

Nerf them, and you'll see fewer people buying them, and more people looking to hop the 'Big Gun' on any called in.

I do not tollerate fools, gladely or otherwise. Try to think things through before posing suggestions.

The discussion keep going on and on. Both side think their idea is brilliant while the other is just plain stupid. How about you guys look at larger picture. I see merit in both suggestions.


Can anyone answer me this ? Why do we have to go one way or another ? Why can't we get it BOTH ?


Make 2 type of HAV, a fps standard one (paper thin one man operated) and an uber strong squad operated one.
Nothing can go wrong with this, can it ?

You will never sell your average gamer on the idea of spending millions of ISK and SP acquiring, fitting, and skilling into a vehicle, only to tell him that his only payoff for all that expenditure will be to move a slow, lumbering vehicle forward and backwards and turn while other people shoot guns and get kills and have a good time.

Honestly, you've all diverged into the realm of "doing it for the sake of doing it". What's the point? Is there even one anymore? Something nebulous about teamwork? All this work CCP would do, this inelegant solution that leaves nobody happy, and for essentially no reason.

That could work but they will need some hotfixes then:
Medium tank
-just 1 gunner
-faster turning speed
-24mph
-costs as much as the current hav
-about 70 % of their hp

Heavy tank
-3 gunners (1 large 2 small)
-slower turning speed
-12mph
-very expensive (1mil for a standard tank at least)
-about 160 % of current havs hp

lol clearly never driven a tank
tanks need gunners to survive aka teamwork
turrets trackin were nerfed
a sole tank will not realise its full potential
a tank with 2 gunners however aka using teamwork uses it to full potential
but im not about to sit here and discuss how we operate tank crews

so again the intent of this thread still fails as tanks do currently take teamwork
same way MTACs and Fighters and gunships will

yall seem to be under the delusion that u must have 2 ppl to operate it that that makes it take teamwork
which again proves my point that most of the ppl posting these suggestions are a bunch of pubstars with little competitive experience. In organised corp v corp play it will teamwork , fighters will have to coordinate with ground troops, gunships as well, tanks already need gunners to effectively work

understand the concept of teamwork and stop judging teamwork based on pub games with randomly organised teams ur never gonna get teamwork on any highscale there the way yall seem to imagine it will happen.

seperating the main gun from driver makes tanking easier, 2 corp mates can now run riot as the driver can just focus on driving and now the tank is MORE mobile as it will be moving AND shooting all the time

You will never sell your average gamer on the idea of spending millions of ISK and SP acquiring, fitting, and skilling into a vehicle, only to tell him that his only payoff for all that expenditure will be to move a slow, lumbering vehicle forward and backwards and turn while other people shoot guns and get kills and have a good time.

Honestly, you've all diverged into the realm of "doing it for the sake of doing it". What's the point? Is there even one anymore? Something nebulous about teamwork? All this work CCP would do, this inelegant solution that leaves nobody happy, and for essentially no reason.

The driver shouldn't have the primary turret on the tank. I think that's fairly obvious, but why should he have no turret at all? Just give him a secondary turret while the first gunner gets the primary one.

That way tank drivers need at least one other guy to be really effective (well, the driver is able to just switch seats, but then he would be stationary and random teammates can jump in and take the tank as well), but the driver will still be able to get kills and help his gunners out.

Separating the positions increases the effectiveness of the tank while removing its ability to be a one-man super-suit. If necessary, keep it a 3-man vehicle and give the driver the front small turret. You'll never see an end to the balancing argument as long as a one-man asset is capable of fighting off 4-6 other players. Give players the ability to squad-lock their vehicles, and the owner could occupy the turret and have someone else drive him. Why should an HAV be the only vehicle with driver controlled weapons?

The driver shouldn't have the primary turret on the tank. I think that's fairly obvious, but why should he have no turret at all? Just give him a secondary turret while the first gunner gets the primary one.

That way tank drivers need at least one other guy to be really effective (well, the driver is able to just switch seats, but then he would be stationary and random teammates can jump in and take the tank as well), but the driver will still be able to get kills and help his gunners out.

Many current tank abusers might be against this, but it's actually pretty reasonable suggestion that improves:
Team-work, somewhat balances vehicles and potentially offers new character builds like gunner, driver etc.

The obvious question:
why are tanks the only vehicles in the game that only need one person to both drive and operate the main turret.

- You need 2 players to get the most out from simple LAV.
- Drop-ship without gunners can only fly. Drop-ship without pilot, can't fly.

Why not just make Tanks work in similar fashion?
if you want to use the main turret you need to be the gunner, if you want to drive the tank you better be on the drivers position.
Since tanks seem to require loads of teamwork to take down, why do they require none to operate?

This would also solve few other problems as well.
- Unable to see where you are going due to slow turret / camera turning speed.
- Driver should be the only one that has the ability to see the tank from 3rd person perspective.
- Upcoming Smoke grenades and EMP grenades could severely hinder the gunners due to poor visibility / turret camera system failing.
- Boost the usefulness of many tank modules like the speed module (due to a driver and gunner being separate roles, you could drive the tank while gunners handle the shooting. )

just reread OP..it takes load of teamwork to take a tank down...yet i took out a sagaris solo..

by this logic it should take 2 ppl to operate the forge gun then, since it can solo any vehicle in the game and demolishes infantry.
also the hmg should need 2 ppl since it will tear infantry apart.

might aswell add 2 person operation to swarms since they shred dropships so easy.

back to what Mavado has asked numerous times and is constantly avoided...fighters and mtacs....how long after they come out till everyone starts saying they need to have 2 ppl to operate?

A) Please reference the date of the original post and try to remember how the tanks had not been tweaked yet

B) We already know those things are coming but so are a lot of other AV things ie. e-war

just reread OP..it takes load of teamwork to take a tank down...yet i took out a sagaris solo..

by this logic it should take 2 ppl to operate the forge gun then, since it can solo any vehicle in the game and demolishes infantry.
also the hmg should need 2 ppl since it will tear infantry apart.

might aswell add 2 person operation to swarms since they shred dropships so easy.

back to what Mavado has asked numerous times and is constantly avoided...fighters and mtacs....how long after they come out till everyone starts saying they need to have 2 ppl to operate?

Many current tank abusers might be against this, but it's actually pretty reasonable suggestion that improves:
Team-work, somewhat balances vehicles and potentially offers new character builds like gunner, driver etc.

The obvious question:
why are tanks the only vehicles in the game that only need one person to both drive and operate the main turret.

- You need 2 players to get the most out from simple LAV.
- Drop-ship without gunners can only fly. Drop-ship without pilot, can't fly.

Why not just make Tanks work in similar fashion?
if you want to use the main turret you need to be the gunner, if you want to drive the tank you better be on the drivers position.
Since tanks seem to require loads of teamwork to take down, why do they require none to operate?

This would also solve few other problems as well.
- Unable to see where you are going due to slow turret / camera turning speed.
- Driver should be the only one that has the ability to see the tank from 3rd person perspective.
- Upcoming Smoke grenades and EMP grenades could severely hinder the gunners due to poor visibility / turret camera system failing.
- Boost the usefulness of many tank modules like the speed module (due to a driver and gunner being separate roles, you could drive the tank while gunners handle the shooting. )

If we get a 4man tank it has to be a tank not one of these glass tanks we currently have

So i would say a boost in HP by at least 25-50%

Slot layout, possibly more slots so a shield tank maybe 6high 4low

PG/CPU increase

Skill increase and make it a have HAV skill level 4

ISK price 5mil

If tank prices weren't colossal then I would agree with this idea. However, most skilled tanks drivers do not want to risk loosing their vehicles due to having terrible gunners. "But there's grouping" Care to give me a statistics of how many people in Dust group up? Got Mics? Good gunners? I find it lacking.


Also, consider this:

How many times were you in a tank and nobody near you thought of coming inside?

Base price of the hull is fine, considering new module costs. To make it easier, buff both them and AV weapons back up to E3 levels.

I still say a boost in mod slots and PG/CPU to make it really feared since it requires 4ppl to operate it to maximum effectivness