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Kyy Seiska
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
188
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Posted - 2012.09.04 10:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Many current tank abusers might be against this, but it's actually pretty reasonable suggestion that improves: Team-work, somewhat balances vehicles and potentially offers new character builds like gunner, driver etc.
The obvious question: why are tanks the only vehicles in the game that only need one person to both drive and operate the main turret.
- You need 2 players to get the most out from simple LAV. - Drop-ship without gunners can only fly. Drop-ship without pilot, can't fly.
Why not just make Tanks work in similar fashion? if you want to use the main turret you need to be the gunner, if you want to drive the tank you better be on the drivers position. Since tanks seem to require loads of teamwork to take down, why do they require none to operate?
This would also solve few other problems as well. - Unable to see where you are going due to slow turret / camera turning speed. - Driver should be the only one that has the ability to see the tank from 3rd person perspective. - Upcoming Smoke grenades and EMP grenades could severely hinder the gunners due to poor visibility / turret camera system failing. - Boost the usefulness of many tank modules like the speed module (due to a driver and gunner being separate roles, you could drive the tank while gunners handle the shooting. ) |
Jiler Xenod
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2012.09.04 11:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think this is a great idea. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
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Posted - 2012.09.04 11:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
bad idea what ******* game do u know with tanks that doesnt have the tank driver using the main gun dumb suggestion, not a good way to balance tanks
Dropships =/= tanks Dropships = transport chopper from BF3 |
Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.04 11:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree on this and the driver seat should also be low and have a small FOV. I mean it's a tank .. why does the driver have the same FOV as a LAV driver? |
Victor Czar
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2012.09.04 11:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Seran Jinkar wrote:I agree on this and the driver seat should also be low and have a small FOV. I mean it's a tank .. why does the driver have the same FOV as a LAV driver? Nanobots, or very small flying robots. It'd be stupid to limit the situational awareness of your tankers wouldn't it? |
Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion
50
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Posted - 2012.09.04 11:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Would the tank then be able to seat four or would it have to give up a turret? |
Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.04 12:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Victor Czar wrote:Seran Jinkar wrote:I agree on this and the driver seat should also be low and have a small FOV. I mean it's a tank .. why does the driver have the same FOV as a LAV driver? Nanobots, or very small flying robots. It'd be stupid to limit the situational awareness of your tankers wouldn't it?
Actually that's the drawback of sitting inside a rolling indestructable shell of metal and shields. It won't be stupid at all if people that can't be sniped, splashed or jammed have to deal with a limited FOV at least.
LAV passengers ARE exposed, can be shot splashed and jammed ( corpse stuck ), do have less damage, less health and the same range at which they can be locked on with AV weapons, why in the world shouldn't at least the driver of the LAV ( or a pedestrian ) have at least ONE advantage compared to the HAV? The gunners are already locked into first person gun sight and exposed in almost every direction ( int he case of the LAV). The passenger seat has no view or function at all.
Now tell me how balanced THIS is...
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Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.04 12:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:Would the tank then be able to seat four or would it have to give up a turret?
Sounds like 4 seats for all 4 of a full squad.
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Kyy Seiska
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
188
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Posted - 2012.09.04 12:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:bad idea what ******* game do u know with tanks that doesnt have the tank driver using the main gun dumb suggestion, not a good way to balance tanks
Dropships =/= tanks Dropships = transport chopper from BF3
That's a pretty bad argument as there's no reason why Tanks in Dust 514 should be anything like they are in any other games.
Besides most of these games you are referring to allow anyone with a rocket launcher, Remote explosive, Mine or a grenade to take down even the biggest tank with 1-3 shots alone with barely any effort. In these games tanks are also often handed out with 'First come, first served' basis and tough as disposable products.
Aqil Aegivan wrote:Would the tank then be able to seat four or would it have to give up a turret?
This is a pretty good question, as it might just make 4-player driven tank a real force to be reckoned with.
Although that's also: - 4-players in a one confined place just waiting to be blown up. - 4-players less capturing objectives - 3-players less to target on the field.
It sounds a bit double edged, more fire power but less people on the field killing of AV-infantry and capturing objectives. Team of 3 full tanks can be in 3 places at once, team of 12 players can be in 12.
The amount of seats could also be related to the tank and modules in question, like lower quality tanks having no additional turrets, middle tier tanks having one and high tier tanks with 2. |
Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion
50
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Posted - 2012.09.04 12:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
So a greater manpower commitment and a more attractive target in exchange for a feature that is (supposedly but not necessarily) a buff for organized teams and a nerf for unorganized ones? This would mean that a squad of four couldn't roll in four tanks anymore and could only really run two tanks (is this intended?). It would also mean that any random who jumped in your tank before your buddy could massively gimp your performance due to a lack of skills and no comms (which is true for dropships but I don't think they are being designed with the same priorities).
With reference to your comparison to dropships. I think that the job breakdown may have more to do with the difference between combat and troop transport roles.
I would be interested to know if tank drivers would consider having two people split these responsibilities would be a buff at all. Communication delays versus multitasking may make this a nerf even for good teams.
From a practical standpoint I can't see this working without at least the ability to kick or rearrange passengers due to the fact that good communication won't stop people from jumping in your tank and stopping you from teaming up. While I'm intrigued by the idea of vehicles that require crews rather than pilots, so to speak, I'm also concerned that removing a role that many players find rewarding may be a little harsh. |
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Kyy Seiska
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
188
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 13:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:So a greater manpower commitment and a more attractive target in exchange for a feature that is (supposedly but not necessarily) a buff for organized teams and a nerf for unorganized ones? This would mean that a squad of four couldn't roll in four tanks anymore and could only really run two tanks (is this intended?). It would also mean that any random who jumped in your tank before your buddy could massively gimp your performance due to a lack of skills and no comms (which is true for dropships but I don't think they are being designed with the same priorities).
With reference to your comparison to dropships. I think that the job breakdown may have more to do with the difference between combat and troop transport roles.
I would be interested to know if tank drivers would consider having two people split these responsibilities would be a buff at all. Communication delays versus multitasking may make this a nerf even for good teams.
From a practical standpoint I can't see this working without at least the ability to kick or rearrange passengers due to the fact that good communication won't stop people from jumping in your tank and stopping you from teaming up. While I'm intrigued by the idea of vehicles that require crews rather than pilots, so to speak, I'm also concerned that removing a role that many players find rewarding may be a little harsh.
Seran Jinkar wrote: Sounds like 4 seats for all 4 of a full squad.
This "Squad" thinking could even promote people not only do their own builds but squad builds as well, this combined with option to allow only those in your squad to enter the vehicle could bring out interesting results when teaming up. |
Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 13:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:So a greater manpower commitment and a more attractive target in exchange for a feature that is (supposedly but not necessarily) a buff for organized teams and a nerf for unorganized ones? This would mean that a squad of four couldn't roll in four tanks anymore and could only really run two tanks (is this intended?). It would also mean that any random who jumped in your tank before your buddy could massively gimp your performance due to a lack of skills and no comms (which is true for dropships but I don't think they are being designed with the same priorities).
With reference to your comparison to dropships. I think that the job breakdown may have more to do with the difference between combat and troop transport roles.
I would be interested to know if tank drivers would consider having two people split these responsibilities would be a buff at all. Communication delays versus multitasking may make this a nerf even for good teams.
From a practical standpoint I can't see this working without at least the ability to kick or rearrange passengers due to the fact that good communication won't stop people from jumping in your tank and stopping you from teaming up. While I'm intrigued by the idea of vehicles that require crews rather than pilots, so to speak, I'm also concerned that removing a role that many players find rewarding may be a little harsh.
Driving an LAV with my Gf as gunner I often have people jumping on. A "Lock at Squad Level" and "Lock Driver Position" Feature would be cool.
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Disturbingly Bored
Universal Allies Inc.
93
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Posted - 2012.09.04 13:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Seems like a good change to address the dominance of tanks without a direct nerf or buff to anything.
It would take away the draw of them being solopwnmobiles, and encourage teamwork. Thats a positive on every front IMHO. |
Sha Kharn Clone
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1087
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 13:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Great Idea + 1 |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 13:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yes. I would like to see two seperate skill progression paths.
One: Vehicle driver/ pilot
Two: Vehicle gunner/ mechanic
I had assumed this is how things were structured the first time I looked through the market and skill sheet. I thought about making a gunner cause that would be a cool specialization. Was not to be. Since tanks are just the best "heavy dropsuit" in the game atm.
Up the cost to train into the disciplines and make it so that a tank driver/ builder could fit any turret even if they lacked the skills to use them. That way a tank for random matches/ etc. would only be able to fit militia turrets if you wanted anyone on squad to jump in and gun.
The vehicle gunner role would be an great thing to train and gunners would be valuable assets.
If you wanted a super killer tank you would always need to coordinate at least a team of 2 (driver, main turret gunner) |
RolyatDerTeufel
D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION
1648
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Posted - 2012.09.04 13:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Seran Jinkar wrote:Aqil Aegivan wrote:Would the tank then be able to seat four or would it have to give up a turret? Sounds like 4 seats for all 4 of a full squad.
Yes, more kills when we finally, if ever in a match, kill the tank! |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 13:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Also, you might find this thread of interest:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=192186#post192186 |
Kincate
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 14:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kyy Seiska wrote:Many current tank abusers might be against this, but it's actually pretty reasonable suggestion that improves: Team-work, somewhat balances vehicles and potentially offers new character builds like gunner, driver etc.
The obvious question: why are tanks the only vehicles in the game that only need one person to both drive and operate the main turret.
- You need 2 players to get the most out from simple LAV. - Drop-ship without gunners can only fly. Drop-ship without pilot, can't fly.
Why not just make Tanks work in similar fashion? if you want to use the main turret you need to be the gunner, if you want to drive the tank you better be on the drivers position. Since tanks seem to require loads of teamwork to take down, why do they require none to operate?
This would also solve few other problems as well. - Unable to see where you are going due to slow turret / camera turning speed. - Driver should be the only one that has the ability to see the tank from 3rd person perspective. - Upcoming Smoke grenades and EMP grenades could severely hinder the gunners due to poor visibility / turret camera system failing. - Boost the usefulness of many tank modules like the speed module (due to a driver and gunner being separate roles, you could drive the tank while gunners handle the shooting. )
+1 |
Maximus Stryker
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
393
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 15:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
I support separating tank driver and gunner similar to drop ships.
I also support increase the cost of tanks by at least three times the ISK. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 16:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:bad idea what ******* game do u know with tanks that doesnt have the tank driver using the main gun dumb suggestion, not a good way to balance tanks
Dropships =/= tanks Dropships = transport chopper from BF3 Planetside 1, for example, and many of the current players of Planetside 2 have been protesting the change to a driver controlled turret, and asking for the old system back. You won't find a single tank in reality that has the turret controlled by the driver, because it gimps the effectiveness of the vehicle. And yes, I know this is a game, but the same principles apply in the management of the vehicle. Separating the two functions into two positions would increase the viability of the vehicle, and also make them more of a team asset than a one-man force-multiplier. |
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Shiro Mokuzan
220
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Posted - 2012.09.04 17:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:bad idea what ******* game do u know with tanks that doesnt have the tank driver using the main gun Red Orchestra. |
wathak 514
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
106
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
So u want to buff tanks by allowing the driver to just drive and the gunner of the main turret not worrying about where hes going.
Currently tanks are handicapped by the fact drivers need look whre there going but can only look at where there shootng so ost have to stand still to get a clean shot but now u want to make it so the can keep moving while someone else shoots your ass making tank harder to kill yet easyer for them to kill u
Ya great idea please ccp ingnore this idea |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 17:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
wathak 514 wrote:So u want to buff tanks by allowing the driver to just drive and the gunner of the main turret not worrying about where hes going.
Currently tanks are handicapped by the fact drivers need look whre there going but can only look at where there shootng so ost have to stand still to get a clean shot but now u want to make it so the can keep moving while someone else shoots your ass making tank harder to kill yet easyer for them to kill u
Ya great idea please ccp ingnore this idea So its better that the driver can drive and gun the tank by himself, mowing down large numbers of enemy players without even needing to coordinate with his team? That's part of what you're missing here. Without separated positions, a tank is a one man win-cannon. The only way to stem the tide of people complaining about them is to do what they should have done in the first place: make the HAV a teamwork dependent vehicle just like the LAV. |
D3LTA NORMANDY
Doomheim
101
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Posted - 2012.09.04 18:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
I am for this idea but the driver should be instead of the front gunner if the top gunner gets a 360 degree view. The driver should also have two or three small straight forward looking guns too like the WW2 tanks had.
In first person view the driver could have a cockpit view where he has small screens that show the view from the turrets, the front view, a map and a large screen that shows the view from a camera on the turret. That could look like this or this.With the right stick you can look around on the large screen.
The main gunner could be the tank commander and have a cockpit view too. There he could have one screen with the view from the turret and one with a overview map where he can set attack and rally targets for the crew of the tank. He can also give these orders with L2+L3. You steer the cursor on the map with the left stick. |
Raynor Ragna
266
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 18:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'd at least like the option to have another player use my main turret. My nano tank would be all powerful then xD |
wathak 514
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
106
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Posted - 2012.09.04 18:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:wathak 514 wrote:So u want to buff tanks by allowing the driver to just drive and the gunner of the main turret not worrying about where hes goNo im sayong tjering.
Currently tanks are handicapped by the fact drivers need look whre there going but can only look at where there shootng so ost have to stand still to get a clean shot but now u want to make it so the can keep moving while someone else shoots your ass making tank harder to kill yet easyer for them to kill u
Ya great idea please ccp ingnore this idea So its better that the driver can drive and gun the tank by himself, mowing down large numbers of enemy players without even needing to coordinate with his team? That's part of what you're missing here. Without separated positions, a tank is a one man win-cannon. The only way to stem the tide of people complaining about them is to do what they should have done in the first place: make the HAV a teamwork dependent vehicle just like the LAV. No im saying if this is done u have made tanks harder to hit cause the driver dont need to sit still to look where hes shooting make the maingun seperate ive just allowed the tank to fire while moving without making a drive mistake and getting stuck. Im not saying something cant be done im saying this aint the way ur making tank warfare easyer in the long run just.harder today cause many havent figured out there not playing cod or bf3 |
Kyy Seiska
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
188
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Posted - 2012.09.04 19:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
wathak 514 wrote: No im saying if this is done u have made tanks harder to hit cause the driver dont need to sit still to look where hes shooting make the maingun seperate ive just allowed the tank to fire while moving without making a drive mistake and getting stuck. Im not saying something cant be done im saying this aint the way ur making tank warfare easyer in the long run just.harder today cause many havent figured out there not playing cod or bf3
You are forgetting that turrets have limited field of view (FOV). They have plenty of blind spots since they can only see what's happening in-front of the turret. Turret turning speed is also fairly slow providing all kinds of fancy opportunities to use.
Firing while moving can be pretty tough you need to take note on both the velocity of your vehicle and the target. there's also plenty of obstacles the driver can't see that might be on the turrets way. |
Paran Tadec
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
902
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 20:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
So instead of worry about driving, not getting stuck on terrain, gunning and running reppers/boosters, I can worry about just driving and repping or just worry about gunning. All this is going to do is make tanks MORE powerful, because you have twice the amount of brainpower being used to operate the vehicle, and freeing the gunner from having to drive properly running boosters and reppers to keep the thing alive. |
EnIgMa99
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
219
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Posted - 2012.09.04 21:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
+1 tanks should eat up people and require alot of ppl to operate, if it kills 4 ppl then it requires 4 of the other team to occupie and man, maybe a prototype heavy tank idea? |
Kyy Seiska
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
188
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Posted - 2012.09.04 21:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:So instead of worry about driving, not getting stuck on terrain, gunning and running reppers/boosters, I can worry about just driving and repping or just worry about gunning. All this is going to do is make tanks MORE powerful, because you have twice the amount of brainpower being used to operate the vehicle, and freeing the gunner from having to drive properly running boosters and reppers to keep the thing alive.
Not really, just easier to operate provided that you have someone who acts as your gunner/driver. But at the expense of heavily reduced (at least) offensive FOV and non-synchronized movement.
Here's a few situations that could happen: - A Long range AV tank is blasting you but main gunner is completely oblivious from where. You: "IT'S THERE!" Him: "WHERE!?" You: THERE! *boom* - Light weight tank with speed modules and fast turrets is constantly attacking you from god knows where, and your main turret is constantly loosing the track of it. - LAV is circling your tank faster than your main-gun can turn and you only have one gunner. - swarms out of ******* nowhere.
4-players in a single tank can be a tough thing to take down, especially alone.. but that's a whole squad, it should be a force to be reckoned with. Besides 4-players can only cover 3 directions + drivers view, still providing plenty of blinds spots for hostile tanks and av-infantry to use. |
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