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Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.04 11:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
I agree on this and the driver seat should also be low and have a small FOV. I mean it's a tank .. why does the driver have the same FOV as a LAV driver? |
Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.04 12:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
Victor Czar wrote:Seran Jinkar wrote:I agree on this and the driver seat should also be low and have a small FOV. I mean it's a tank .. why does the driver have the same FOV as a LAV driver? Nanobots, or very small flying robots. It'd be stupid to limit the situational awareness of your tankers wouldn't it?
Actually that's the drawback of sitting inside a rolling indestructable shell of metal and shields. It won't be stupid at all if people that can't be sniped, splashed or jammed have to deal with a limited FOV at least.
LAV passengers ARE exposed, can be shot splashed and jammed ( corpse stuck ), do have less damage, less health and the same range at which they can be locked on with AV weapons, why in the world shouldn't at least the driver of the LAV ( or a pedestrian ) have at least ONE advantage compared to the HAV? The gunners are already locked into first person gun sight and exposed in almost every direction ( int he case of the LAV). The passenger seat has no view or function at all.
Now tell me how balanced THIS is...
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Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.04 12:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:Would the tank then be able to seat four or would it have to give up a turret?
Sounds like 4 seats for all 4 of a full squad.
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Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.04 13:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:So a greater manpower commitment and a more attractive target in exchange for a feature that is (supposedly but not necessarily) a buff for organized teams and a nerf for unorganized ones? This would mean that a squad of four couldn't roll in four tanks anymore and could only really run two tanks (is this intended?). It would also mean that any random who jumped in your tank before your buddy could massively gimp your performance due to a lack of skills and no comms (which is true for dropships but I don't think they are being designed with the same priorities).
With reference to your comparison to dropships. I think that the job breakdown may have more to do with the difference between combat and troop transport roles.
I would be interested to know if tank drivers would consider having two people split these responsibilities would be a buff at all. Communication delays versus multitasking may make this a nerf even for good teams.
From a practical standpoint I can't see this working without at least the ability to kick or rearrange passengers due to the fact that good communication won't stop people from jumping in your tank and stopping you from teaming up. While I'm intrigued by the idea of vehicles that require crews rather than pilots, so to speak, I'm also concerned that removing a role that many players find rewarding may be a little harsh.
Driving an LAV with my Gf as gunner I often have people jumping on. A "Lock at Squad Level" and "Lock Driver Position" Feature would be cool.
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Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.13 11:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
It got popular by LAVs and Dropships being forced to have multiple people to be effective, while the most effective weapon on the field only needs one person ? |
Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 08:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
I do agree .. it takes no skill to drive a LAV, and no coordination.
Why should it be more difficult to drive a tank that does not actually have limitations concerning mass (bobbing and weaving when driving a tank), field of view (limited view through cameras or portholes), fuel (yeah tanks need a lot of power to run which equals fuel or a capacitor on your fusion drive), ammo (yeah either it has to restock by a nanohive or capacitor) and complexity (driver, gunner, turret guners). Right now it's not a tank but a huge Dropsuit with additional slots to sit in that is sooo difficult to handle that only the best of the best are able to control its tracks and turrets AT THE SAME TIME!
The no skill LAV on the other hand is so easy to steer that there are lots of people complaining about the vehicle controls and soap wheels on LAVs. Oh and why should one use a Heavy suit as a LAV driver outfit? You can't get shot, splashed or fluxed out of the LAV anyway.
Oh and heeeeyy .. it's so easy to kill anything with the small turret on it that only hits and aims properly when the LAV is standing still and the target isn'T bunnyhopping. But that doesn't matter as it takes ages for Swarmlaunchers to lock on the LAV (about four times longer than on tanks due to the small signature radius)and AV grenades don't home on them. Well it can't be the price of an advanced or prototype LAV because there aren't any. Just some Noob Logistics LAVs that need the laughingly low amount of 3 million SP to unlock a vehicle with a 0.5 damage multiplier and a variant that has a shield booster that nets no WP.
Well .. there is is really no need for skill when you want to make a LAV effective. Or Coordination with your gunner or Ghandi in the driver seat.
Actually tanks don't need a seperation between gunner and driver. They need auto-aim turrets that allow to drive the tanks by one person alone and still be stronger and durable than the noob in his LAV with no skill that needs to have another one on board that wants to be exposed and have a nice "snipe me" sign on his back. |
Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
|
Posted - 2012.09.19 08:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
immortal ironhide wrote:Kyy Seiska wrote:Many current tank abusers might be against this, but it's actually pretty reasonable suggestion that improves: Team-work, somewhat balances vehicles and potentially offers new character builds like gunner, driver etc.
The obvious question: why are tanks the only vehicles in the game that only need one person to both drive and operate the main turret.
- You need 2 players to get the most out from simple LAV. - Drop-ship without gunners can only fly. Drop-ship without pilot, can't fly.
Why not just make Tanks work in similar fashion? if you want to use the main turret you need to be the gunner, if you want to drive the tank you better be on the drivers position. Since tanks seem to require loads of teamwork to take down, why do they require none to operate?
This would also solve few other problems as well. - Unable to see where you are going due to slow turret / camera turning speed. - Driver should be the only one that has the ability to see the tank from 3rd person perspective. - Upcoming Smoke grenades and EMP grenades could severely hinder the gunners due to poor visibility / turret camera system failing. - Boost the usefulness of many tank modules like the speed module (due to a driver and gunner being separate roles, you could drive the tank while gunners handle the shooting. ) stupidest idea i have ever heard tbqh..... you even posted why it is a TERRIBLE idea..."Unable to see where you are going due to slow turret / camera turning speed." so by seperating the driver from the main gun you expect to make the tank weaker...yea not gunna work that way. 1) will make shooting infantry much easier, since gunner can just spam the cannon instead of you know having to worry about watching where he is driving and avoiding obstacles. can focus on av infantry while not having to worry about backing into a hill and getting stuck. 2) yes let me train a ton of SP then spend 1.5mil to fit this tank that im not gunna get a kill with....geniussssss. seriously ppl train for a tank for a reason..to be able to fire the main gun and farm infantry...you dont like it train some AV and make the tank pop rather easy if you spend the points on swarms or forge instead of lolprotoweapons or iwinnades. 3) comparing it to TRANSPORT vehicles...tank is a COMBAT vehicle, meaning it is designed to have the driver SHOOTING the main gun. 4) boost speed modules..what?? so the tank will be faster, driver can just drive, gunner can just shoot, and the tank is more balanced this way tanks are balanced more due to the driver having to go stationary to make accurate shots. take away the turret and a tank is never gunna stop driving. forge guns destroy tanks so easily because the tanks have to stop to turn since they are trying to shoot infantry AND drive. dont know how many i have made drive into a building or hill and get stuck so i can easily blow them up
You Sir have not really understood the meaning of this thread. It's about creating complexity similar to dropships and LAVs, NOT about nerfing something. YES, a well coordinated tank with gunner and driver will work more effectively, BUT also requires more coordination and would resemble the tanks, as we know them, much better.
Oh and btw .. Tanks are support vehicles not Combat Vehicles. They are similar to the Cavalry in medieval times. They come in and flank the enemy or break through their lines. They do assault and need both crew and support concerning fuel and ammo (unlike the DUST tanks), but they can't win a fight on their own. With the current state of the game it seems the role has already been corrected by making them rely on infantry around them to stop forge gunners and swarmers. |
Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.19 13:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Yep .. he didn't read it ... effective vehicles should be a team effort. They should reward team play and coordination. the stronger the vehicle the more crew (seperate driver and gunnner) or support (ammo and refueling) it should need. That's the background of this thread.
FOLLOWING YOUR CAPS ITS ABOUT TANKS NEED TWO PEOPLE TO OPERATE. SINGLE PERSON VEHICLES WITH ATTACK FUNCTION SHOULD REQUIRE REFUELING, CAPS OR AMMUNITION. THIS IS THE INTENT TO SEPERATE ONE PERSON IN A DROPSUIT FROM A TEAM THAT SPORTS VEHICLES. |
Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 08:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:Seran Jinkar wrote:Yep .. he didn't read it ... effective vehicles should be a team effort. They should reward team play and coordination. the stronger the vehicle the more crew (seperate driver and gunnner) or support (ammo and refueling) it should need. That's the background of this thread.
FOLLOWING YOUR CAPS ITS ABOUT TANKS NEED TWO PEOPLE TO OPERATE. SINGLE PERSON VEHICLES WITH ATTACK FUNCTION SHOULD REQUIRE REFUELING, CAPS OR AMMUNITION. THIS IS THE INTENT TO SEPERATE ONE PERSON IN A DROPSUIT FROM A TEAM THAT SPORTS VEHICLES. lol clearly never driven a tank tanks need gunners to survive aka teamwork turrets trackin were nerfed a sole tank will not realise its full potential a tank with 2 gunners however aka using teamwork uses it to full potential but im not about to sit here and discuss how we operate tank crews so again the intent of this thread still fails as tanks do currently take teamwork same way MTACs and Fighters and gunships will yall seem to be under the delusion that u must have 2 ppl to operate it that that makes it take teamwork which again proves my point that most of the ppl posting these suggestions are a bunch of pubstars with little competitive experience. In organised corp v corp play it will teamwork , fighters will have to coordinate with ground troops, gunships as well, tanks already need gunners to effectively work understand the concept of teamwork and stop judging teamwork based on pub games with randomly organised teams ur never gonna get teamwork on any highscale there the way yall seem to imagine it will happen. seperating the main gun from driver makes tanking easier, 2 corp mates can now run riot as the driver can just focus on driving and now the tank is MORE mobile as it will be moving AND shooting all the time
LOL ... this is indeed somehow funny as we are saying the same things. Yes! A tank with a seperate gunner and driver CAN be more effective but not neccessarily IS more effective. While one guy using a tank like his personal 1500 damage and 6000 HP dropsuit is definitely turning other vehicles into a joke concerning effectiveness with 1 person inside. Right now the guys in their HAV dropsuits are NOT requiring teamwork. They just need somebody in the small turrets to cover their sides.
Of course this relates to teamwork in the crew (to operate the strongest vehicle on the field) and NOT in the team. Right now 80% of the tank dropsuits are rolling from red blob to red blob all alone to gather their kills instead of getting to their infantry and supporting them which would be TEAMWORK for me (and supposedly in corp vs corp matches).
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Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.20 08:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:You will never sell your average gamer on the idea of spending millions of ISK and SP acquiring, fitting, and skilling into a vehicle, only to tell him that his only payoff for all that expenditure will be to move a slow, lumbering vehicle forward and backwards and turn while other people shoot guns and get kills and have a good time.
Honestly, you've all diverged into the realm of "doing it for the sake of doing it". What's the point? Is there even one anymore? Something nebulous about teamwork? All this work CCP would do, this inelegant solution that leaves nobody happy, and for essentially no reason.
Just the way it is with Logistics LAVs :) 3 Million SP just to drive it WITHOUT any modules. Fully fitted (which is the same amount like tanks have in small turrets and shield/armor) it can't even fire a gun with just the driver, costs about 500k and even has the wonderful 0.5 damage multiplier.
I know HAVs cost a lot more, but they also do have a lot more punch (about 4 to 5 times even not counting the multiplier, which makes it 8 to 10 times) and a lot more HP/Shield. Even the highest extended fitted LAV has only the same amount of points as a militia fitted HAV.
And with the Standard LAV '(350k in a survivor fit) it's all the same except that they equal the standard tanks in meta level which make them even worse and yet still require more teamplay as the driver has to be on the lookout for the gunner which has a smaller FOV than a tank driver-gunner right now, has to call out targets, keep the FOV of the gunner in mind and besides all of this has to evade AV nades and swarms that lock on as fast and good as on a tank even though having a smaller profile.
Now tell me where exactly is the point that requires LAV users to be the fools while HAV users have all the benefits for barely any higher investment (which actually is just the main gun SP wise) related to higher HP/Shield gain for isk and dont even have to coordinate at least two people.
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Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.20 08:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:The driver shouldn't have the primary turret on the tank. I think that's fairly obvious, but why should he have no turret at all? Just give him a secondary turret while the first gunner gets the primary one.
That way tank drivers need at least one other guy to be really effective (well, the driver is able to just switch seats, but then he would be stationary and random teammates can jump in and take the tank as well), but the driver will still be able to get kills and help his gunners out.
+1 for this when the driver gets a small FOV like the front turret on the one standard tank I just can't remember the name of.
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Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.09.21 08:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Concerning when people will start asking for fighter or gunships will need two to operate I just say: They will right after day 1. But I already suggested an alternative. The alternative is that weapons with driver controlled main weapons should have either an ammo limit or a capacitor. |
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