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Crazy Cat Lady Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 158	Posted - 2014.07.09 22:57:00 - [1] - Quote The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Charlie * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. * WP for injectors, STD/ADV/PRO 25/50/75 WP I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes. Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower. Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through. Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first. Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 3781	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:00:00 - [2] - Quote Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 157	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:01:00 - [3] - Quote So um, why are we tampering with the logi again?
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 1597	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:02:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Leaving the A-Logi sidearm alone would be pretty smart... Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault V Commando IV Logistics IV Amarr Logi without a sidearm IS NOT AN AMARR LOGI!
Herrick Arcos BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 114	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:07:00 - [5] - Quote IFirst off I have to say hello to Crazy Cat Lady... Its been a long time since Shadow Cavalry! Second I think the logi's we have now are a far cry from the killer bees we had for a while and a nerf to their speed is definitely not something that is needed. Slowing logis is only going to make their ability to support their team unnecessarily more difficult. Its about time logis get some attention that actually impacts their ability to support their teams.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11727	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:11:00 - [6] - Quote If anything I would be suggesting alternate bonuses for the Logistics role. Instead of placing emphasis on the racial equipment item and making that the sole deciding factor of which Logi is chosen I would suggest more generalistic bonuses that ensure Logistics operate more like their EVE kin. Role Bonuses such as + X% to Rep Range per level +X% to Armour and Shield Transfer per level + X% Efficiency to Nanite Injectors per level then couple that with the Racial Equipment Bonuses that are supplied now. I envision Logi doing their job and not spamming equipment everywhere, not requiring tanking or personal rep bonuses because they dont need to expose themselves to fire to do their role. "So you came back......My son, my Udorian son.....bearing the filthy blood of his heathen mother." - Eaderan Ouryon
Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 157	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:14:00 - [7] - Quote I suggest we stop talking about nerfing stuff and lets address other issues. Don't you guys get tired of constantly chasing the unicorn of balance that will NEVER be achieved? Let's talk about game modes. Let's talk about why I still can't press T for comms. Let's talk about unique events. Let's talk about other things besides the constant month to month nerfing of weapons and dropsuits.
Crazy Cat Lady Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 160	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:24:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Well if you are asking... I would LOVE the suit intel stats of my team mates to be visible when I hover the rep tool reticle <3 Currently to check amour and shield numbers on our blues' suits we have to switch over to gun. This intel is pretty valuable given our role in helping peeps manage their HP :)
Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound 1	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:29:00 - [9] - Quote Give the Cal logi its old CPU and PG back.
Eko Sol Strange Playings 567	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:30:00 - [10] - Quote Crazy Cat Lady wrote: The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Charlie * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. * WP for injectors, STD/ADV/PRO 25/50/75 WP I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes. Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower. Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through. Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first. Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention You are wrong. The cal logi has 9 freaking module slots. The Amarr has 7. You gave up an equipment slot for a module slot. So it doesn't make sense since I know snipers that run 5 damage mods on their cal logi. Everything else you said is fine but get your facts straight. Post Distaste for A-Logi changes in Charlie here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2249908#post2249908

I-Shayz-I I----------I 4029	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:35:00 - [11] - Quote Making a video, and subscribing to this thread to stay up to date with current updates. Amarr Logi bonus is working correctly as the uplinks revert to their normal times when the player dies or switches suits, but will return back to their enhanced times when the player is in the Amarr Logi. I don't feel that any single logistics suit is better than another...and the proposed changes (while slightly weird), make sense to me in terms of overall balancing. All 4 suits need to have the same number of total H/L slots, and Caldari shouldn't feel restricted for fitting space. I saw a suggestion that Rattai mentioned in the feedback thread...something about increasing the fitting reduction of equipment and reducing cpu/pg. I do not support this UNLESS they do something about the invisible bonus to nanohives that the Nanocircuitry skill gives. Rattai, PLEASE give us your opinion on this and whether you plan on giving all equipment this bonus, whether you will remove it and adjust fitting values for logistics accordingly (or adjust nanohive and injector requirements), or if you just would rather ignore it. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6203	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:39:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Plausibility of Logistics' equipment bonus applying to racial allies' equipment to a lesser extent..? For instance the Amarr Logi getting (if my numbers are right) a 5% bonus to Nanites and 2.5% bonus to Ammo Replenish speed/repair. Half of what the Caldari Logistics gets. Still gives incentive to specialize but takes a lot of the edge off of some Logistics being far more useful than others while accounting for lack of racial equipment. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6417	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:44:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Logistics get overall bonus to all equipment; greater bonus to racials. see you space cowboy...

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 3788	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:48:00 - [14] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Making a video, and subscribing to this thread to stay up to date with current updates. Amarr Logi bonus is working correctly as the uplinks revert to their normal times when the player dies or switches suits, but will return back to their enhanced times when the player is in the Amarr Logi. I don't feel that any single logistics suit is better than another...and the proposed changes (while slightly weird), make sense to me in terms of overall balancing. All 4 suits need to have the same number of total H/L slots, and Caldari shouldn't feel restricted for fitting space. I saw a suggestion that Rattai mentioned in the feedback thread...something about increasing the fitting reduction of equipment and reducing cpu/pg. I do not support this UNLESS they do something about the invisible bonus to nanohives that the Nanocircuitry skill gives. Rattai, PLEASE give us your opinion on this and whether you plan on giving all equipment this bonus, whether you will remove it and adjust fitting values for logistics accordingly (or adjust nanohive and injector requirements), or if you just would rather ignore it. Please explain the invisible bonus to nanohives. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Thokk Nightshade KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 448	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:49:00 - [15] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: Crazy Cat Lady wrote: The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Charlie * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. * WP for injectors, STD/ADV/PRO 25/50/75 WP I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes. Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower. Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through. Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first. Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention You are wrong. The cal logi has 9 freaking module slots. The Amarr has 7. You gave up an equipment slot for a module slot. So it doesn't make sense since I know snipers that run 5 damage mods on their cal logi. Everything else you said is fine but get your facts straight. I would be one of those people who DOES have a Cal Logi set up with Charge Sniper rifle and 5 damage mods. It was an awesome fit and may be again if Sniper Rifles can get some love (Just give them all the Thales Scope, that is all I'm asking!) Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Miokai Zahou The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 319	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:52:00 - [16] - Quote I believe the proposed changes to the Amarr logis are fine as they where never meant to be filling in a slayer role in the first place so getting rid of the side arm and moving it to the equipment slot makes sense considering they are looking into making the assault class more viable in patch charlie. The movement speed is also justifiable as they are not front line fighters nor are they scouts so believe or not the logistics class is now become a more defined support role. Leave the speed to the scouts and assault classes. Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1126	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:53:00 - [17] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: I suggest we stop talking about nerfing stuff and lets address other issues. Don't you guys get tired of constantly chasing the unicorn of balance that will NEVER be achieved? Let's talk about game modes. Let's talk about why I still can't press T for comms. Let's talk about unique events. Let's talk about other things besides the constant month to month nerfing of weapons and dropsuits. Yes and no. Reaching balance IS a neverending endeavour, but a necessary one. now what you say about other stuff, that is also important - some examples you gave really shows things what need also working on. :-S
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6203	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:55:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Making a video, and subscribing to this thread to stay up to date with current updates. Amarr Logi bonus is working correctly as the uplinks revert to their normal times when the player dies or switches suits, but will return back to their enhanced times when the player is in the Amarr Logi. I don't feel that any single logistics suit is better than another...and the proposed changes (while slightly weird), make sense to me in terms of overall balancing. All 4 suits need to have the same number of total H/L slots, and Caldari shouldn't feel restricted for fitting space. I saw a suggestion that Rattai mentioned in the feedback thread...something about increasing the fitting reduction of equipment and reducing cpu/pg. I do not support this UNLESS they do something about the invisible bonus to nanohives that the Nanocircuitry skill gives. Rattai, PLEASE give us your opinion on this and whether you plan on giving all equipment this bonus, whether you will remove it and adjust fitting values for logistics accordingly (or adjust nanohive and injector requirements), or if you just would rather ignore it. Please explain the invisible bonus to nanohives. What, the thing that has been reported multiple times since last year? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1394318#post1394318 Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6417	Posted - 2014.07.09 23:58:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Making a video, and subscribing to this thread to stay up to date with current updates. Amarr Logi bonus is working correctly as the uplinks revert to their normal times when the player dies or switches suits, but will return back to their enhanced times when the player is in the Amarr Logi. I don't feel that any single logistics suit is better than another...and the proposed changes (while slightly weird), make sense to me in terms of overall balancing. All 4 suits need to have the same number of total H/L slots, and Caldari shouldn't feel restricted for fitting space. I saw a suggestion that Rattai mentioned in the feedback thread...something about increasing the fitting reduction of equipment and reducing cpu/pg. I do not support this UNLESS they do something about the invisible bonus to nanohives that the Nanocircuitry skill gives. Rattai, PLEASE give us your opinion on this and whether you plan on giving all equipment this bonus, whether you will remove it and adjust fitting values for logistics accordingly (or adjust nanohive and injector requirements), or if you just would rather ignore it. Please explain the invisible bonus to nanohives. The short Description of the Nanite Bonus does not tell you that you receive a 5% fitting reduction but if you go to the market and look at the skill itself of go directly to the skill book it says it gives you the bonus. Jesus Rattati you didn't know?? see you space cowboy...
Alcina Nektaria DETHDEALERS RISE of LEGION 0	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:00:00 - [20] - Quote So....you want to break the Logistics role even more? Come on, the equipment was already broken!! The worst idea ever was to change the spawn times and modify the nanohives. Absolutely ridiculous. Also, what is the point of changing the slots on the suits. They are set the way they are for a reason, they are fit to coincide with the racial benefits and makeup of the actual suit itself. Not to mention, if you have your logi fitted correctly, it's already slow enough AND it's meant to be able to heal other infantry. How is it supposed to do that if they are barely able to keep up with a heavy? Silly, just silly. Please leave the logistics suits alone or if you want to do anything to them, fix the equipment that you broke in the first place. Maybe take a look at the tanks. Take away the ability for them to stack damage modifiers because they already do enough damage in the first place. To add to this, maybe look at doing something about dropships so they don't explode when a feather touches them? How about that?

Fizzer94 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2876	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:11:00 - [21] - Quote If you must know what Cal Logis got in exchange for the missing equipment, it was their 9th module slot. My best match on Dust, 23/6/4 Placon. Please unnerf ScPs and fix IoPs...
Alcina Nektaria DETHDEALERS RISE of LEGION 0	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:12:00 - [22] - Quote Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon.
Yoma Carrim Vengeance Unbound 596	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:18:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? As a Cal logi I am extremely happy about the increased equipment slot. I do have some concerns regarding the CPU/PG on ADV and Proto being able to fit another peace of equipment. STD has PG and CPU to spare -_- I don't like the idea of slowing us down even more with Assaults potentially getting more speed and EHP (ether through base HP or increase to CPU/PG allowing them to fit higher tear modules.) Trying to ketch one of them for reps or amo is going to be a pain if this happens. The A-logi losing it's sidearm.... You're going to have a lot of mad A-logi's as it tends to bridge the gap between Assaults and Logi's but not surprising if your giving them an extra low and another equipment. Oh Heck
Yoma Carrim Vengeance Unbound 597	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:20:00 - [24] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: If you must know what Cal Logis got in exchange for the missing equipment, it was their 9th module slot. That's only at Proto. STD and ADV kina just get messed over Oh Heck
Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 162	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:21:00 - [25] - Quote Alcina Nektaria wrote: Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon. Just stop it. If we go down the path of forcing people to change how they play with making sure light weapons can't fit on sentinels then this will have a ripple effect. This game is about customization. Because you don't use it and its a headache to you, doesn't mean that we should just not allow the freedom of customization to others. Lets not force people to play how we want them to play.
Atiim Fooly Cooly. Anime Empire. 10340	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:26:00 - [26] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: You are wrong. The cal logi has 9 freaking module slots. The Amarr has 7. You gave up an equipment slot for a module slot. So it doesn't make sense since I know snipers that run 5 damage mods on their cal logi. Everything else you said is fine but get your facts straight. 5 Damage Mods? Name and Shame please. Only the scrubbiest of the scrubbiest of the scrubs would run 5x Damage Modifiers. After the 3rd Damage Mod your getting less than 1.5% per Module, and even then sacrificing eHP for only 2.85% damage is questionable. Long Live The Anime Empire "You know what? You really, REALLY, like to dampen the mood" - Lea Silencio -HAND
Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 162	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:26:00 - [27] - Quote Yoma Carrim wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? As a Cal logi I am extremely happy about the increased equipment slot. I do have some concerns regarding the CPU/PG on ADV and Proto being able to fit another peace of equipment. STD has PG and CPU to spare -_- I don't like the idea of slowing us down even more with Assaults potentially getting more speed and EHP (ether through base HP or increase to CPU/PG allowing them to fit higher tear modules.) Trying to ketch one of them for reps or amo is going to be a pain if this happens. The A-logi losing it's sidearm.... You're going to have a lot of mad A-logi's as it tends to bridge the gap between Assaults and Logi's but not surprising if your giving them an extra low and another equipment. The logi shouldn't be tampered with. What are you going to put in that extra equipment slot? The most important items for a logi is nanohive, needles, and reps. You can exchange with nanohive/uplink as you see fit. But other than that, why would the cal logi need an extra equipment slot? Logi's survivability rate is not as high thanks to the changes to reduce the slayer logi. Saying yes to Alogi changes only means that other changes will come that are not beneficial to the playerbase as a whole. Plus we are adjusting Dust 514 to be its own lil private world, separate from EVE. What does it matter what racial suit you pick when logis are the same across the board? It's that diversity that entices. Having everything in the same color just doesn't make sense. Especially since they said they wanted a dynamic battlefield. More and more CCP is changing that. Lets keep the variety and differences between the racial suits in game.
Miokai Zahou The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 319	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:32:00 - [28] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon. Just stop it. If we go down the path of forcing people to change how they play with making sure light weapons can't fit on sentinels then this will have a ripple effect. This game is about customization. Because you don't use it and its a headache to you, doesn't mean that we should just not allow the freedom of customization to others. Lets not force people to play how we want them to play. Well going by your logic of freedom of customization I want my assault suit to use the hmg then or my scout suit to run around with a forge and a plasma rifle. Heavy suit shouldn't be able to use light weapons as that is the commandos role or do you want commandos to duel weird heavy weapons now because of this concept of 'freedom to customize' Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 162	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:34:00 - [29] - Quote Miokai Zahou wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon. Just stop it. If we go down the path of forcing people to change how they play with making sure light weapons can't fit on sentinels then this will have a ripple effect. This game is about customization. Because you don't use it and its a headache to you, doesn't mean that we should just not allow the freedom of customization to others. Lets not force people to play how we want them to play. Well going by your logic of freedom of customization I want my assault suit to use the hmg then. This is where being smart makes you look dumb. That is not logical what you have stated. An assault suit cannot carry, power and withstand the heat being produced by the HMG, why its able to be fit on a Sentinel. So basically, use you some damn common sense instead of trying to be smart in your response. It makes you look stupid, friend.
Alcina Nektaria DETHDEALERS RISE of LEGION 0	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:35:00 - [30] - Quote Miokai Zahou wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon. Just stop it. If we go down the path of forcing people to change how they play with making sure light weapons can't fit on sentinels then this will have a ripple effect. This game is about customization. Because you don't use it and its a headache to you, doesn't mean that we should just not allow the freedom of customization to others. Lets not force people to play how we want them to play. Well going by your logic of freedom of customization I want my assault suit to use the hmg then. Well said, well said. My concern with this is: Why does the slot say "H" for HEAVY, yet a light weapon can be put on it?

Yoma Carrim Vengeance Unbound 598	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:35:00 - [31] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: Yoma Carrim wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? As a Cal logi I am extremely happy about the increased equipment slot. I do have some concerns regarding the CPU/PG on ADV and Proto being able to fit another peace of equipment. STD has PG and CPU to spare -_- I don't like the idea of slowing us down even more with Assaults potentially getting more speed and EHP (ether through base HP or increase to CPU/PG allowing them to fit higher tear modules.) Trying to ketch one of them for reps or amo is going to be a pain if this happens. The A-logi losing it's sidearm.... You're going to have a lot of mad A-logi's as it tends to bridge the gap between Assaults and Logi's but not surprising if your giving them an extra low and another equipment. The logi shouldn't be tampered with. What are you going to put in that extra equipment slot? The most important items for a logi is nanohive, needles, and reps. You can exchange with nanohive/uplink as you see fit. But other than that, why would the cal logi need an extra equipment slot? Logi's survivability rate is not as high thanks to the changes to reduce the slayer logi. Saying yes to Alogi changes only means that other changes will come that are not beneficial to the playerbase as a whole. Plus we are adjusting Dust 514 to be its own lil private world, separate from EVE. What does it matter what racial suit you pick when logis are the same across the board? It's that diversity that entices. Having everything in the same color just doesn't make sense. Especially since they said they wanted a dynamic battlefield. More and more CCP is changing that. Lets keep the variety and differences between the racial suits in game. There are plenty of things I can place in that extra equipment slot; another set of hives, uplinks, an active scanner, REs, or proximity explosives. And I'm not saying I agree with the A-logi change I only said it's not surprising. Oh Heck
Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 162	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:36:00 - [32] - Quote Alcina Nektaria wrote: Miokai Zahou wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon. Just stop it. If we go down the path of forcing people to change how they play with making sure light weapons can't fit on sentinels then this will have a ripple effect. This game is about customization. Because you don't use it and its a headache to you, doesn't mean that we should just not allow the freedom of customization to others. Lets not force people to play how we want them to play. Well going by your logic of freedom of customization I want my assault suit to use the hmg then. Well said, well said. My concern with this is: Why does the slot say "H" for HEAVY, yet a light weapon can be put on it? You're not that bright either.
Miokai Zahou The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 319	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:39:00 - [33] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: Miokai Zahou wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon. Just stop it. If we go down the path of forcing people to change how they play with making sure light weapons can't fit on sentinels then this will have a ripple effect. This game is about customization. Because you don't use it and its a headache to you, doesn't mean that we should just not allow the freedom of customization to others. Lets not force people to play how we want them to play. Well going by your logic of freedom of customization I want my assault suit to use the hmg then. Well said, well said. My concern with this is: Why does the slot say "H" for HEAVY, yet a light weapon can be put on it? You're not that bright either. Name calling just proves you have no counter to an argument so I'll just take my leave and say that you're idea is wrong and you should feel bad. Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3477	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:41:00 - [34] - Quote stop screwing around with logis.
Alcina Nektaria DETHDEALERS RISE of LEGION 0	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:42:00 - [35] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: Miokai Zahou wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon. Just stop it. If we go down the path of forcing people to change how they play with making sure light weapons can't fit on sentinels then this will have a ripple effect. This game is about customization. Because you don't use it and its a headache to you, doesn't mean that we should just not allow the freedom of customization to others. Lets not force people to play how we want them to play. Well going by your logic of freedom of customization I want my assault suit to use the hmg then. Well said, well said. My concern with this is: Why does the slot say "H" for HEAVY, yet a light weapon can be put on it? You're not that bright either. I'm pretty sure that my statement is completely valid. But judging by your feels on my statement, I would assume you are one of "those" people.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6204	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:45:00 - [36] - Quote Alcina Nektaria wrote: Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon. An understandable frustration, but as long as Sentinels are restricted to only having two heavy weapons it's a necessary evil. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:47:00 - [37] - Quote Miokai Zahou wrote: Name calling just proves you have no counter to an argument so I'll just take my leave and say that you're idea is wrong and you should feel bad. The only counter I am offering is intelligence. Not even that, its just basic common sense. Some things I figured should go without saying. In other words, there should be an understanding without taking the time to explain the simplistic. Yes, a merc should be able to customize as long as its is well within the guidelines.. An assault cannot fit a HMG because of its powergrid costs. Meaning, the suit powers the weapon. The suit also uses CPU to process its functionality, where the CPU cost come in. We haven't even discussed the weight and heat matters. But a sentinel can fit a RR. Because the weapon's CPU and PG costs are not as high. The weight is light. Weapon heat is not a problem. So I responded the way I did because lets just be honest, you wanted to be a smart butt about it. Oh and why you quoted the post that was made to respond to the other guy? Is that your alt?
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3659	Posted - 2014.07.10 00:54:00 - [38] - Quote It pains me to disagree with CCL, it really does, but I dont see this as a positive, with the obvious exception of finally being rewarded for running wyrkomi injectors. Being even slower than some sentinels is bad enough, but losing my sidearm is a total deal breaker. There are so many better ways to bring medium suits in line with each other. It's the some old "thing a sucks, so let's nerf thing b" CCP logic that has failed us time and time again over the past 2 years. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Zaria Min Deir Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 738	Posted - 2014.07.10 01:27:00 - [39] - Quote My thoughtsin short: Rattati's reason for wanting to nerf logis is that more people use logis than assaults. Bad logic and bad excecution. Speed reduction is absolutely unnecessary. Removing the Amarr sidearm is a bad call. Longer from the main post: Zaria Min Deir wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I'm sorry but our data shows that logis outnumber assaults by a huge margin. Nothing about this change will make logis worse at being logis. Such a bad reason to nerf something. Because there are many people using it, it must be nerfed? wtf? Really? This would be the same reason the AR was kept so weak in comparison to other rifles for so long, right? And this was the same logic behind "data seemed to suggest that the SCR is UP", as relatively few people were using it? But now you yourself have attempted to balance the rifles NOT according to just how many people use them, but actual performance. So why do the logi suits need to be nerfed based on how many people use them? Also, once again, I and many others have said this many many times, the assault suits being weak is not the logi suit's fault, it just means the assault suits need a buff. Nerfing logi suits will do absolutely nothing to fix the assault suits. The reason there are so many people NOT using the assault suits is because CCP has refused to buff the assault suits for over a year now, even though anyone playing the game knows they need it, and need it badly. Guess what. Nothing about your proposed changes to logis will make assaults better at being assaults, either. You DO realize that the dropsuit is the single most expensive thing in the game (for infantry, at least) to skill into. So when skilling into a suit, you are committing to using it it for quite a while before you can get another one. So, yes, many people have chosen to spec into a logi suit instead of an assault, NOT because the logi suit is a great assault suit, but because the assault suit is bad. Also. As a min logi, with my CCP prescribed rep tool, I currently struggle keeping up with the OP heavies that I'm supposed to rep. I can't stack on much more speed, because I'm already paper thin, but I can't brick tank either (even if I wanted to) because then there is no way I can keep up with the heavies that stack kin cats instead of plates, as most of the good heavies have realized they don't really need plates anymore, thanks to all the buffs. And you want to make me even slower. Really? Thanks, Rattati, you're such a pal. Time to retire the rep tool, I guess. Oh, and. As I thankfully got rid of my Amarr logi when 1.8 hit, I don't really gaf, but taking away the sidearm... such BS. So, you planning on reimbursing the sidearm skill tree for all Amarr logis? However, the WP for different tiers of nanite injectors is a good change, should have happened a long time ago. On my logi suit, I don't bring a needle if I can't fit the proto :P I detest the WP whores who use a basic injector just so that they can then get more triage points., though this change won't affect that, in all likelihood. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Miokai Zahou The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 319	Posted - 2014.07.10 01:37:00 - [40] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: Miokai Zahou wrote: Name calling just proves you have no counter to an argument so I'll just take my leave and say that you're idea is wrong and you should feel bad. The only counter I am offering is intelligence. Not even that, its just basic common sense. Some things I figured should go without saying. In other words, there should be an understanding without taking the time to explain the simplistic. Yes, a merc should be able to customize as long as its is well within the guidelines.. An assault cannot fit a HMG because of its powergrid costs. Meaning, the suit powers the weapon. The suit also uses CPU to process its functionality, where the CPU cost come in. We haven't even discussed the weight and heat matters. But a sentinel can fit a RR. Because the weapon's CPU and PG costs are not as high. The weight is light. Weapon heat is not a problem. So I responded the way I did because lets just be honest, you wanted to be a smart butt about it. Oh and why you quoted the post that was made to respond to the other guy? Is that your alt? I'm not being a smart but about it. Your idea is just plain wrong. The hmg doesn't take up very much cpu or power grid to use at all for an assault suit (after cpu/power grid mods if your not maxed out in the skills) I'm countering your logic about 'everything should be customizable' which thid stament is a false perception. What is happening here is that you want the heavy suit to fill out both the slayer role and the tanker 'I kick your ass with a hmg' role. Lets think logically then. A heavy suit was designed to carry weapons that no normal suit can via an exoskeleton hence why they have such a tremendous amount of health points but the down side is that the suits design means that it shouldn't be able to carry light weapons (or side arms) due to the large scale the hands/arms/whatever need to be to hold said heavy guns. In the beginning there was only a few roles in dust which is the scout class, assault class, logi class and heavy class. Then came the commando a little later on down the track. Now back then the heavy class was only meant to use the light weapons for range combat as a place holder until longer ranged heavy weapons came in - but didn't due to stuff. With CCP Rattati making roles more defined it only makes sense logically that the commando suit fills the role of the 'heavy with the light weapon' and not the Sentinel. Tl;dr your wrong because you love your Sentinel and light weapon combo and should feel bad. Also I'm no alt nor is the guy/girl I just defend people when I feel like it. I hope that too many words in one post doesn't hurt your head as you seem to fail at understanding what the 'H' stands for in the Sentinel suit. Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.

Riptalis Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 33	Posted - 2014.07.10 01:43:00 - [41] - Quote Amarr is already the slowest and now you want to take my sidearm? Why?! Logistics ak.0 ADS Pilot PSN: Riptalis
Zindorak CaUsE-4-CoNcErN 65	Posted - 2014.07.10 02:16:00 - [42] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Leaving the A-Logi sidearm alone would be pretty smart...
Yeeeuuuupppp uptown456 Dark Taboo 416	Posted - 2014.07.10 02:21:00 - [43] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Leaving the A-Logi sidearm alone would be pretty smart... That would make it a slayer logi instead of support. Think about it, why would you use it for support if you have 4 equipment, and space for a proto lw and sidearm (at the proto level of course) Rage Proficiency V Mic status: Muted Storage Wars Champion.
hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 138	Posted - 2014.07.10 02:25:00 - [44] - Quote dang man, i thought logis were straight up near perfect. the only one that seems gimped is Cal logi with 3 equipment slots, only because the logi's role is also to rep and needle, so true logi's running cal can't really take advantage of cal bonus with only 1 slot left unless they do the switch suit spam which is very map/mode specific (and stupid to have to do). also it's mind boggling that you would mess with their speed. only by using an enhanced/complex kin cat do they reach anything like an assault. most good logis stack complex plates with a repper or two. my gal and amarr proto (with complex plates on like they should have keeping me alive therefore keeping me healing my team, or keeping me scanning longer or uplinks upping) logis can barely outrun heavys. my proto min logi should be quicker because that's their inherent bonus. the min don't have a sidearm, or 5 highs, or 5 lows. people saying logi's shouldn't be able to be a slayer (kill people) i think are nubs or straight up scrubs. just because a logi who has 48 mil sp and completely proto in core skills and a weapon kills you don't mean slayer. even so, if someone wants to stack damage mods, remotes, nano hives therefore choosing to gimp their healing role so be it. i don't say sht when i see camandos with six kin reppers racking up points in the crow's nest, or assaults somewhere, or scouts with six kin reppers and needles leaving the front lines after running away to rep and needle because they got shot at twice. maybe they should not be allowed to use them, as it CHANGES THEIR ROLE and transgresses the logi's. i think the number 1 thing you guys should be trying to fix in this next patch is assaults. and wtf are you focusing on logis and not assaults for?? my two cents on how to help assaults is make them the only class that can use damage mods on both highs and low slots. the needle thing, perfect though
Hazerd Prone Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 5	Posted - 2014.07.10 02:29:00 - [45] - Quote Personally, I've never ran more than a basic logistics suit so don't take me too seriously if I'm wrong, but I would like to see logis with cloaks. I'd even go the length to say that they should get more of a buff to them as well. They're meant to be a tactical suit so they should have access to anything that allows them to be tacticle. And while I'm on the subject of cloaks, you should really give them their cloak time back. I didn't sink over a million sp in them just so I could stand around for ten seconds longer than advanced. Gallente Scout Extraordinaire
Klash 816 Sanguis Defense Syndicate 81	Posted - 2014.07.10 02:45:00 - [46] - Quote Yeeeuuuupppp wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Leaving the A-Logi sidearm alone would be pretty smart... That would make it a slayer logi instead of support. Think about it, why would you use it for support if you have 4 equipment, and space for a proto lw and sidearm (at the proto level of course) If you read the description of the Amarr logi it says combat focused meaning that it's supposed to be a slayer of sorts. *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* With Blood and Iron We Klash-
hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 139	Posted - 2014.07.10 02:57:00 - [47] - Quote Klash 816 wrote: Yeeeuuuupppp wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Leaving the A-Logi sidearm alone would be pretty smart... That would make it a slayer logi instead of support. Think about it, why would you use it for support if you have 4 equipment, and space for a proto lw and sidearm (at the proto level of course) If you read the description of the Amarr logi it says combat focused meaning that it's supposed to be a slayer of sorts. i think the amarr logi is perfect as is. in order to feed those two proto weps you need hives. with only 3 equipment slots most amarr have uplink to take advantage of their bonus, a repper and a needle. if you want to switch out a nano hive or two you gimp your healing role, which is cool with me brother if that's what you want to do
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 865	Posted - 2014.07.10 03:00:00 - [48] - Quote If Nanite Injectors are getting an overhaul... a few things should be put into play regarding them as well. Injectors should not reward people with WP if they use it on an individual more than 2 times in 15-30 seconds (to combat farming vs tactical revives) The increased WP makes it so that even with a time restriction, you can earn about the same, if not more WP with higher tier equipment. Likewise kills could have a similar limit per individual player. Revives by injectors should remove your last death from your KDR, (or death markers from a player's perspective should be changed to at the time of clone incapacitation instead of collapse) but this shouldn't change the timing of WP gained from downing an enemy in regular combat. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 317	Posted - 2014.07.10 03:43:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Change the equipment bonus amounts. Maybe something like: Logi racial equip bonus = +40% Logi non-racial bonus = +20% Non-Logi equip bonus = 0% Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1204	Posted - 2014.07.10 04:08:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? First, big kudos to Crazy Cat Lady for posting this up and starting the conversation. Second, Change can be frustrating but may open up some opportunity for us Logi players. Feedback on Hotfix Charlie possibly logo updates: 1) WP scaling for needles - spot on and long over due. I would propose a slightly different WP reward mechanism for consideration. Additionally, the nanite injector probably should be effected positively in some way by the Cal Logi racial bonus. 2) Speed nerd to Logi - bad call. The speed of the logi was never what made them a "slayer" the versatility and ability to increase damage or tank was the reason. I think you could actually make a decent case for slightly increasing the base movement rate of the Logi's but not increase the sprint speed since that is more useful in maintaining pace with heavies and scouts on the offense. 3) Evening out the number of modules - need more info on this one. This change, coupled with equipment slot changes, is a major overhaul and you might get close to "over homogenizing" the logi class if you aren't careful. Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to change but it must be carefully considered. Possible smart ideas for consideration: a) Require every equipment slot to be filled. Similar mechanic to requiring a weapon to be equipped; this will not harm logi's in any way since we are already filling the slots. It will, however, discourage folks from rocking all proto mods, weapons, and nades while leaving equipment slots. b) Significant bonuses to sidearms. Let me be VERY clear, I'm not a proponent for requiring Logi's run sidearms but I'm OK with incentivizing us carrying sidearms. We could get a 5% reduction to CPU/PG use and 2% increase in Damage per level and that might very well be enough to incentivize fairly significant use of sidearms. c) Look at opening up scaled bonus for equipment across all types. Basically you get the current racially assigned equipment bonus AND you get a smaller buff for the other equipment types. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3222	Posted - 2014.07.10 04:19:00 - [51] - Quote Crazy Cat Lady wrote: Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Caldari have an extra low slot for CPU Upgrades or another armor plate. That's way better than a sidearm or 4th EQ slot Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Empress of Alts
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3222	Posted - 2014.07.10 04:28:00 - [52] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? First, big kudos to Crazy Cat Lady for posting this up and starting the conversation. Second, Change can be frustrating but may open up some opportunity for us Logi players. Feedback on Hotfix Charlie possibly logo updates: 2) Speed nerd to Logi - bad call. The speed of the logi was never what made them a "slayer" the versatility and ability to increase damage or tank was the reason. I think you could actually make a decent case for slightly increasing the base movement rate of the Logi's but not increase the sprint speed since that is more useful in maintaining pace with heavies and scouts on the offense. . . . c) Look at opening up scaled bonus for equipment across all types. Basically you get the current racially assigned equipment bonus AND you get a smaller buff for the other equipment types. Speed is inherently tied to base movement speed. Sprint is (movement) * 1.4 * (other modifiers). I'd actually really like to see the base movement speed of all frames the same with each role having a different sprint modifier. e.g. Gallente Scout, Assault, Logistics, Sentinel, and Commando all move at 5.45m/s while all Minmatar suit move at 5.6m/s. All Sentinel suits sprint modifier on 1.2, Commando 1.25, Logi 1.3, Assault 1.35 and scout 1.5 Logistics need a bonus to all support equipment Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Empress of Alts
Venerable Phage Red Shirts Away Team 159	Posted - 2014.07.10 04:33:00 - [53] - Quote Alcina Nektaria wrote: Miokai Zahou wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon. Just stop it. If we go down the path of forcing people to change how they play with making sure light weapons can't fit on sentinels then this will have a ripple effect. This game is about customization. Because you don't use it and its a headache to you, doesn't mean that we should just not allow the freedom of customization to others. Lets not force people to play how we want them to play. Well going by your logic of freedom of customization I want my assault suit to use the hmg then. Well said, well said. My concern with this is: Why does the slot say "H" for HEAVY, yet a light weapon can be put on it? Because bigger slots can take smaller guns... No wait that doesn't sound right. You can dual wield sidearms with a M and S slot. Not One Lifetime
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15843	Posted - 2014.07.10 04:33:00 - [54] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? First, big kudos to Crazy Cat Lady for posting this up and starting the conversation. Second, Change can be frustrating but may open up some opportunity for us Logi players. Feedback on Hotfix Charlie possibly logo updates: 2) Speed nerd to Logi - bad call. The speed of the logi was never what made them a "slayer" the versatility and ability to increase damage or tank was the reason. I think you could actually make a decent case for slightly increasing the base movement rate of the Logi's but not increase the sprint speed since that is more useful in maintaining pace with heavies and scouts on the offense. . . . c) Look at opening up scaled bonus for equipment across all types. Basically you get the current racially assigned equipment bonus AND you get a smaller buff for the other equipment types. Speed is inherently tied to base movement speed. Sprint is (movement) * 1.4 * (other modifiers). I'd actually really like to see the base movement speed of all frames the same with each role having a different sprint modifier. e.g. Gallente Scout, Assault, Logistics, Sentinel, and Commando all move at 5.45m/s while all Minmatar suit move at 5.6m/s. All Sentinel suits sprint modifier on 1.2, Commando 1.25, Logi 1.3, Assault 1.35 and scout 1.5 Logistics need a bonus to all support equipment This interesting option should be considered. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Minmatar Sentinel =// Unlocked
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 865	Posted - 2014.07.10 04:58:00 - [55] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? First, big kudos to Crazy Cat Lady for posting this up and starting the conversation. Second, Change can be frustrating but may open up some opportunity for us Logi players. Feedback on Hotfix Charlie possibly logo updates: 2) Speed nerd to Logi - bad call. The speed of the logi was never what made them a "slayer" the versatility and ability to increase damage or tank was the reason. I think you could actually make a decent case for slightly increasing the base movement rate of the Logi's but not increase the sprint speed since that is more useful in maintaining pace with heavies and scouts on the offense. . . . c) Look at opening up scaled bonus for equipment across all types. Basically you get the current racially assigned equipment bonus AND you get a smaller buff for the other equipment types. Speed is inherently tied to base movement speed. Sprint is (movement) * 1.4 * (other modifiers). I'd actually really like to see the base movement speed of all frames the same with each role having a different sprint modifier. e.g. Gallente Scout, Assault, Logistics, Sentinel, and Commando all move at 5.45m/s while all Minmatar suit move at 5.6m/s. All Sentinel suits sprint modifier on 1.2, Commando 1.25, Logi 1.3, Assault 1.35 and scout 1.5 Logistics need a bonus to all support equipment This interesting option should be considered. Standardizing walk speed would be... interesting. It might even eliminate several of the issues we have about scouts seeming to strafe too fast for regular combat. Heavies would have to be looked at a bit further however. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 184	Posted - 2014.07.10 05:41:00 - [56] - Quote Miokai Zahou wrote: I believe the proposed changes to the Amarr logis are fine as they where never meant to be filling in a slayer role in the first place so getting rid of the side arm and moving it to the equipment slot makes sense considering they are looking into making the assault class more viable in patch charlie. The movement speed is also justifiable as they are not front line fighters nor are they scouts so believe or not the logistics class is now become a more defined support role. Leave the speed to the scouts and assault classes. But they are already slower than the assault and scout classes. They are medium suits, not heavy suits.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2249	Posted - 2014.07.10 05:44:00 - [57] - Quote Alright there are a couple things at work here: Role of the Logi I have always considered the Logistics to be the Support and Control class Dust, though not in the sense that many players think. To me, Logistics control the battlefield by providing spawn points, planting explosives, and hacking objectives. Support means Medical Support in the form of Rep tool and Injectors, Asset Support as in Nanohives, and Intelligence Support as in Scanners. But Logistics are also Combat Support, providing indirect and limited direct combat support to their teammates, which is why I fervently reject the GÇ£Sidearm Only LogiGÇ¥ because it severely gimps a key part of the Logi role, which is Combat Support. Many will argue that Logistics Ships in EVE don't use guns at all, but I'd also argue that the logistics capabilities of of Logi suits is merely a fraction of what what Logistics ships in EVE can do. If Logi suits in Dust could completely out-rep and effectively negate incoming DPS like Logistics in EVE can, then I could support a sidearm only Logi. However, Dust Logistics fill a hybrid role, and as such a direct comparison is not very accurate. That being said, the existence of the GÇ£Slayer LogiGÇ¥ is not so much a failure of the Logi being too good at killing, but rather that it's Assault brother isn't significantly better. Survivability It is important to remember regardless of your role, you're useless if you're dead. Logistics have often been told that they need to be weak in order to be balanced but I disagree. If the support class is the easiest to kill and also has the most hindered offensive abilities in the game, it won't survive long enough to be considered useful. Don't misunderstand, I'm not advocating for the unkillable brick Logi's we had back in the day. However, the general survivability of the Medium Frame series as a whole (Logi and Assault) needs to be fairly consistent. For those of you concerned about Slayer Logis, the concept I'm pushing is that while Logistics and Assault should have similar defenses, the Assault should be significantly better at killing, and thus would be the preferred slayer, whereas the logistics is still capable of surviving, it cannot dish out as much punishment as the Assault, and is such better suited for the Support and Control role. Fitting The best way to make sure that both suits are viable in combat would be to give them very similar slot layouts and base stats. The Assault would likely have an extra slot as well as a slightly higher speed (I'm totally against the recent nerf to Logi speed, it should have stayed the same and given a speed buff to the Assault). Currently Logi's have more resources to run their equipment, and more slots for flexibility. However in order to remain viable, they have to use those slots to compensate for dismally low base stats, and the fitting reduction bonus is simply too low. Considering a Proto logi will have 4 times more equipment than the Assault, yet its bonus only compensates for 25% resource reduction, the bonus is essentially a drop in the bucket. So now you have a suit which has to stack on tons of modules to stay alive as well as carry 2-3 more equipment than other classes, making is probably the most expensive suit to run in the entire game. Required Equipment No other role requires you to equip something to play as it. The reason you're required to equip a gun/turret is because this is a FPS game, not a boxing game. Scouts are not required to fit a cloak, nor are Assaults required to fill all of their weapon slots, nor is a Sentinel required to use a heavy machine gun. Hard restrictions like forcing a player to fill all of their slots is distinctly NOT New Eden, and is a crude fix and bad game design. Let's assume the Logi has similar PG/CPU and slot layout to an Assault, similar slots, but with 4 equipment instead of 1. The Logi has 2 choices here: 1. Equip no Equipment. His resources are still the same as the Assault and thus cannot equip any more defenses/off than an Assault (Lets assume the assault isnGÇÖt using equipment either), but also lacks a sidearm and offensive bonuses, thus making it about as survivable as an Assault, but with weaker offensive abilities and no support abilities. 2. Fill equipment slots. If we assume 25% reduction to equipment, the Logi equips 4 equipment for the cost of 3. At this point it's using the same resources to run 3 equipment vs the 1 equipment the Assault has, thus consuming resources that could have otherwise been put towards defenses. Option 1 is what someone attempting to be a Slayer Logi would take, however as I outlined, he would gain no advantage by doing this, and this is a good thing. Option 2 is bad, because it hinders Logi's trying to play the support role but are getting screwed because their defenses are not up to snuff. Option 2 can be fixed however, and the issue lies in the rather weapon fitting bonus to equipment. By doubling or tripling the equipment fitting bonus (50%-75% reduction), but giving Logistics similar PG/CPU to Assaults, their Effective PG/CPU is significantly higher, but only if they use equipment. Their Absolute PG/CPU is similar to Assaults though, so this offers Logi's zero advantage to not equipping equipment, but does not hinder or force Logis to fill their slots. Thus we have option 3. 3. Fill Equipment with 75% reduction bonus to equipment fitting. 4 Equipment costs similar to 1, the same as Assault. Remaining PG/CPU is similar to that of an assault, thus allowing the Logi to fit similar defenses, but lacking in sidearm/offensive bonuses makes them weaker offensively, but not useless. I feel this is is the most balanced way to encourage equipment use by offering little advantage to not use it. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2249	Posted - 2014.07.10 05:45:00 - [58] - Quote Equipment Bonuses I think that forcing players to only have bonuses to a single equipment but giving them 3-4 slots is kinda silly. Racial bonuses are sweet, but so are role bonuses. Logi's should be the best at using equipment, period, and even better at using their own racial equipment. I have two suggestions for reworked bonuses for equipment 1. Logi's get full bonus for their racial equipment, as well as full bonus for another race's equipment, such that each has a unique pair. For example Amarr: Bonus to Uplinks & Nanohives Caldari: Bonus to Nanohives & Scanners Gallente: Bonus to Scanners & Repair Tools Minmatar: Bonus to Repair Tool & Uplinks 2. Logi's get full bonus for their racial equipment, as well as a partial bonus for all other race's equipment. I personally like 1 a bit more, but I imagine most will prefer 2. I'd be content with either option. On a side note, I'd actually like all Logi's to get some form of bonus to remote explosives and proximity mines. I feel it really suits their Control and Indirect Combat themes, and would certainly bring and interesting dynamic to those equipment. Conclusion (Keep in mind I think more changes need to be made to all medium frames in general to properly balance them against Light and Heavy, however balancing Assault vs Logi is an important step as well) Logi's need similar survivability to Assaults. General defenses should be part of the frame suit, not the role. Variations will exist, but overall they should be similar Boost Equipment fitting bonus significantly (50%-75% reduction at level 5 instead of current 25%) Give Logi's similar slots and PG/CPU to assaults, but make their effective PG/CPU much higher, but only if equipment is used to take advantage of the larger reduction bonus. Expand bonuses for racial equipment to make it less restrictive. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 184	Posted - 2014.07.10 05:54:00 - [59] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? First, big kudos to Crazy Cat Lady for posting this up and starting the conversation. Second, Change can be frustrating but may open up some opportunity for us Logi players. Feedback on Hotfix Charlie potential Logi updates: 1) WP scaling for needles - spot on and long over due. I would propose a slightly different WP reward mechanism for consideration. Additionally, the nanite injector probably should be effected positively in some way by the Cal Logi racial bonus. 2) Speed nerf to Logi - bad call. The speed of the logi was never what made them a "slayer" the versatility and ability to increase damage or tank was the reason. I think you could actually make a decent case for slightly increasing the base movement rate of the Logi's but not increase the sprint speed since that is more useful in maintaining pace with heavies and scouts on the offense. 3) Evening out the number of modules - need more info on this one. This change, coupled with equipment slot changes, is a major overhaul and you might get close to "over homogenizing" the logi class if you aren't careful. Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to change but it must be carefully considered. Possible smart ideas for consideration: a) Require every equipment slot to be filled. Similar mechanic to requiring a weapon to be equipped; this will not harm logi's in any way since we are already filling the slots. It will, however, discourage folks from rocking all proto mods, weapons, and nades while leaving equipment slots. b) Significant bonuses to sidearms. Let me be VERY clear, I'm not a proponent for requiring Logi's run sidearms but I'm OK with incentivizing us carrying sidearms. We could get a 5% reduction to CPU/PG use and 2% increase in Damage per level and that might very well be enough to incentivize fairly significant use of sidearms. c) Look at opening up scaled bonus for equipment across all types. Basically you get the current racially assigned equipment bonus AND you get a smaller buff for the other equipment types. Agree with most of this. b) I'm 'meh' on, but I am absolutely adamant that the light weapon not be changed to a sidearm. We still need to have some combat effectiveness and only a sidearm is not combat effectiveness I am baffled that the logis are getting changed this much. I no longer see many slayer logis: scouts are the new assault class, not logis, so why is CCP. If CCP really feels like they need to separate the logi and assault suits more, then don't allow logis from having damage mods.
Hell Destroyer THE CHOSEN-ONES 11	Posted - 2014.07.10 05:55:00 - [60] - Quote hey i know people speced into the ammar logi for one of two reasons. 1 they liked the bonus to uplink spawn time .2 they liked the logi that had a side arm which you are trying to get ride of.... i think if you want to mess with all of that you might as well give a respec because that isnt fair to take away the side arm that they speced into the suit for. i know im going to get hated on for saying respec but that is a big part when I used my logi a lot saved me many times over. and people will also say a side arm is useless which is false when you run lazer weaponry you need to avoid the over heat so you flip out your side arm and get the kill. again now you are going to say you are running it to slay but it is defensive.

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3680	Posted - 2014.07.10 05:59:00 - [61] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Equipment Bonuses I think that forcing players to only have bonuses to a single equipment but giving them 3-4 slots is kinda silly. Racial bonuses are sweet, but so are role bonuses. Logi's should be the best at using equipment, period, and even better at using their own racial equipment. I have two suggestions for reworked bonuses for equipment 1. Logi's get full bonus for their racial equipment, as well as full bonus for another race's equipment, such that each has a unique pair. For example Amarr: Bonus to Uplinks & Nanohives Caldari: Bonus to Nanohives & Scanners Gallente: Bonus to Scanners & Repair Tools Minmatar: Bonus to Repair Tool & Uplinks 2. Logi's get full bonus for their racial equipment, as well as a partial bonus for all other race's equipment. I personally like 1 a bit more, but I imagine most will prefer 2. I'd be content with either option. On a side note, I'd actually like all Logi's to get some form of bonus to remote explosives and proximity mines. I feel it really suits their Control and Indirect Combat themes, and would certainly bring and interesting dynamic to those equipment. Conclusion (Keep in mind I think more changes need to be made to all medium frames in general to properly balance them against Light and Heavy, however balancing Assault vs Logi is an important step as well) Logi's need similar survivability to Assaults. General defenses should be part of the frame suit, not the role. Variations will exist, but overall they should be similar Boost Equipment fitting bonus significantly (50%-75% reduction at level 5 instead of current 25%) Give Logi's similar slots and PG/CPU to assaults, but make their effective PG/CPU much higher, but only if equipment is used to take advantage of the larger reduction bonus. Expand bonuses for racial equipment to make it less restrictive. I've proposed choice 2 in other threads so naturally that's what I vote for. It should be the existing racial bonus, plus 1/4 of whatever the other 3 bonuses are, so at level 5 you get your own bonus at level 5 plus the other ones at the equivalent of almost level 2. Your point about slayer logis only existing because assaults were not good needs to be repeated 1000 times and drilled into certain cement headed coughiwscough peoples heads. Pre 1.7 logis were the rage because assaults were no good, now scouts and heavies are the rage for the same reason. They do the same job as assaults, but better, and with the additional advantages of the other class. Strangely, by CCP logic, the answer to both scenarios is to nerf logis. Crucial fact: NOBODY who loves Amarr weaponry uses the Amarr logi as a slayer suit. They all use the assault. Why? Because it actually has a good bonus! (Shocking, I know.) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Dj grammer Red Star. EoN. 274	Posted - 2014.07.10 06:13:00 - [62] - Quote Crazy Cat Lady wrote: The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Charlie * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. * WP for injectors, STD/ADV/PRO 25/50/75 WP I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes. Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower. Dj Grammer: Agreed. Do not decrease Logi speed. They are the slowest of the medium frames. Do not decrease the speed even further. Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through. Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first. Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention Anyone claiming that Logistics class need a nerf because of slayer logistics users please leave this thread now. The slayer logistics died post 1.7 or when 1.7 dropped. Pre 1.7 it was on the rage because the assaults were horrible. Instead of nerfing the Logistics and the actual Logistics LogiBro users how about...oh i don't know....BUFF THE FREAKING ASSAULT CLASS!?!?!?!?!!?!? ANYWAYS CCP Rattati do not decrease the Logistics speed. They are slow post 1.8 to keep up with squads to give out needs such as nano hives, repairing armor, reviving downed teammates, and a lot more. Also keep in mind that we live in the DUST world of scouts and heavys. Giving the scouts the additional equipment slot means that they can play pseudo logistics while already making the assaults look pointless at the same time. Instead of a nerf making the already baited logistics class easier bait by scouts and heavys, how about a buff for one? why ccp?
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2252	Posted - 2014.07.10 06:15:00 - [63] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Pre 1.7 logis were the rage because assaults were no good, now scouts and heavies are the rage for the same reason. They do the same job as assaults, but better, and with the additional advantages of the other class. Strangely, by CCP logic, the answer to both scenarios is to nerf logis. It comes down to a simple fact. If you want something to be good at something, give it bonuses to make it good at that something. Dont nerf everything else to reach the lowest common denominator. Assaults are the only role without a strong defining feature to hammer in the "THIS IS THE MOFO SLAYER SUIT" so people go to other classes instead. If you actually make the Assault perform like it SHOULD, then it will be its nature be better than the Logi. I really dislike crude solutions like "oh, well, take away Logi's weapon" or "Force them to fill their slots!". Even with our limited developmental capabilities, there are far more eloquent (and often very simple) solutions to many of the problems we face. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 185	Posted - 2014.07.10 06:25:00 - [64] - Quote Hell Destroyer wrote: hey i know people speced into the ammar logi for one of two reasons. 1 they liked the bonus to uplink spawn time .2 they liked the logi that had a side arm which you are trying to get ride of.... i think if you want to mess with all of that you might as well give a respec because that isnt fair to take away the side arm that they speced into the suit for. i know im going to get hated on for saying respec but that is a big part when I used my logi a lot saved me many times over. and people will also say a side arm is useless which is false when you run lazer weaponry you need to avoid the over heat so you flip out your side arm and get the kill. again now you are going to say you are running it to slay but it is defensive. I am not speced into amar logi, but I totally agree that they should get the option to respec. The sidearm always struck me as a nice feature that let people choose a logi that was closer to an assault, and I could see people choosing this logi for that very reason.
Dj grammer Red Star. EoN. 274	Posted - 2014.07.10 06:27:00 - [65] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Pre 1.7 logis were the rage because assaults were no good, now scouts and heavies are the rage for the same reason. They do the same job as assaults, but better, and with the additional advantages of the other class. Strangely, by CCP logic, the answer to both scenarios is to nerf logis. It comes down to a simple fact. If you want something to be good at something, give it bonuses to make it good at that something. Dont nerf everything else to reach the lowest common denominator. Assaults are the only role without a strong defining feature to hammer in the "THIS IS THE MOFO SLAYER SUIT" so people go to other classes instead. If you actually make the Assault perform like it SHOULD, then it will be its nature be better than the Logi at killing ****. I really dislike crude solutions like "oh, well, take away Logi's weapon" or "Force them to fill their slots!". Even with our limited developmental capabilities, there are far more eloquent (and often very simple) solutions to many of the problems we face. Right, we the logistics players only have the one light weapon. We are back-up not meant for frontline killing. I will ask people to do one thing. Spend all of your skill points into a logistics fit and tell me me how we are slayers. Also try to be an actual LogiBro. I will tell you right now it is not easy. why ccp?
Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 179	Posted - 2014.07.10 06:30:00 - [66] - Quote The slaylogi tears were stupid. If a logi decides to kill and not follow a heavy all day like a dog, that's his choice. As long as he's dropping nano reppers and supporting a team, I didn't see a problem. When I logi'd, I maimed and murdered on the battlefield and I stopped for hurt mercs to give them support. I like to kill reds and support blues. What's the big deal about that?
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2256	Posted - 2014.07.10 06:32:00 - [67] - Quote Dj grammer wrote: Right, we the logistics players only have the one light weapon. We are back-up not meant for frontline killing. I will ask people to do one thing. Spend all of your skill points into a logistics fit and tell me me how we are slayers. Also try to be an actual LogiBro. I will tell you right now it is not easy. And its not even the one light weapon, if the assaults were kicking ass with damage buffs and weapon support skills, it would make them even better at the slayer role. And yes as was pointed out, the cost of a Logi suit is insane. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15845	Posted - 2014.07.10 06:38:00 - [68] - Quote I like you pokey. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Minmatar Sentinel =// Unlocked
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 344	Posted - 2014.07.10 06:55:00 - [69] - Quote I am not going to be happy if I lose my sidearm slot on my Amarr logi. I-Shayz-I wrote: Amarr Logi bonus is working correctly as the uplinks revert to their normal times when the player dies or switches suits, but will return back to their enhanced times when the player is in the Amarr Logi. From what I remember a dev saying a while back the bonus was supposed to be attached to the suit that dropped it, not the current suit. In any case the uplinks still don't get the bonuses sometimes even when I'm wearing an Amarr logistics suit.
Jace Silencerwolf Outcasts For Hire 2	Posted - 2014.07.10 07:09:00 - [70] - Quote Jack 3enimble wrote: Give the Cal logi its old CPU and PG back. only if they lose a low slot or people like usuckatdust will use it as a slayer again (he runs a proto caldari logi with 588 shield and 624 armor with a kaal rail rifle and I think 1-2 compact hives)

J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 424	Posted - 2014.07.10 07:36:00 - [71] - Quote I really don't think logis are the problem these days, so i don't know where all this is coming from, but to address some of the points: 1) Remove Amarr logis sidearm slot: I'm not skilled into one, but I have to say, I'd be pretty pissed if I were. I wouldn't frak with this, Rattati. It's a nice suit that fills the roll of "combat engineer", a logi that doesn't focus on rez/rep/resupply -- would be sorry to see that option taken away. I've considered skilling into one to carry swarms or mass driver, but still do logistics. The only reason I can see removing it is that now you can do all this with the Commando class now, but still, it's nice to keep. 2) Speed reduction: No. Why? Whose complaining about how fast logis move? And further, logis need to be able to keep up with their squad; you know, the thing they are supposed to be, well, supporting? I don't see any good reason for this. 3) Remove cloak bonus: Meh. Does any logi actually run cloaks anyway? I can fit one on my Min suit, but all you are is a blurry thing with a big red arrow over your head to any scout in the area. Remove, don't remove, who cares? We got way bigger fish to fry. 4) Equipment slots: Yeah, just give all logis 3, 4 at proto for all but Amarr, if they get to keep their sidearm -- that's the tradeoff, you get a sidearm, but no 4th equipment slot. CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? I like Jaysyn Larrisen's ideas regarding all logi EQ slots being filled, which I think is probably a pretty good guard against future slayer-logi abuse; also a logi sidearm bonus. I'd consider running a N7-A or M209, if it meant I had more room for advanced or proto EQ. But give me the option, don't just take it away. The reason logis run light weapons is to stay competitive on the battlefield, so I still want that option if I want it. You can probably consider removing Light Weapons for heavies now, but I don't think it really matters anymore -- you'd have to be dense to run L on a heavy suit now, when the Commando bonuses to L are so much better.... but if you want to be a dummy, you should be free to do so. If you do anything with heavies, you could probably consider adjusting CPU/PG requirements on the suits. It's way too easy to fit proto weapons/modules on an advanced suit, which I think is the source of much of the heavy qq these days. If you want to run Boundless on an advanced suit, you shouldn't be able to run complex modules either... fair's fair. Don't frak with my turn speed though, it didn't work the last time we did it. Min Logi \| aka Punch R0ckgroin, fatboy
Guiltless D667 42	Posted - 2014.07.10 07:37:00 - [72] - Quote I don't see any justification to lower the speed of logi where in the minmatar logis case is one of this selling points,it just looks like a nerf you just threw in there to be honest and if assaults are going to be potentially faster than logis by comparison with armor anyway, why do it? I really don't care for removal of the cloaking bonus on logis since the concept of a stealth piece of equipment being used on a logi for stealth never sat right with me,that's what scouts are for. WP spread between needles I can see is logical, giving incentive to spec into higher tier needles,just mean less Wp for my cheaper suits where I skipped putting a high tier needle to save space but was counterbalanced by a decent quality rep tool. "Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier...." Q:So do all logis get 3 slots through all tiers or 4 compare to scout's 2.commando's 1 and assault's 1? See a pattern here? "....Same total of high and low slots as well per tier." Q:Will CCP be changing the configuration of H/L slots if the total H/L slots for all logi suits are all the same before Charlie? A Strange Game.
Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 182	Posted - 2014.07.10 07:44:00 - [73] - Quote If people are so concerned with slayer logis then here's an idea: how about we remove ALL weapons from the logi dropsuit? Boom, no more "slayer" logi.
J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 424	Posted - 2014.07.10 07:59:00 - [74] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: If people are so concerned with slayer logis then here's an idea: how about we remove ALL weapons from the logi dropsuit? Boom, no more "slayer" logi. What's your point here? Those early days of 1.0 were fraking miserable for everybody but Cal logis, and you know it. No one wants to see that crap return. The Cal logi suit was ridiculous in the amount of CPU/PG it had -- which is why I suggested that heavy be looked at, cause I suspect it might be the same problem. I've got core to 5, and cpu and engineering to 2, and I can fit just about anything I want on an Amarr heavy suit. Min Logi \| aka Punch R0ckgroin, fatman
Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 184	Posted - 2014.07.10 08:21:00 - [75] - Quote Miokai Zahou wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: Miokai Zahou wrote: Name calling just proves you have no counter to an argument so I'll just take my leave and say that you're idea is wrong and you should feel bad. The only counter I am offering is intelligence. Not even that, its just basic common sense. Some things I figured should go without saying. In other words, there should be an understanding without taking the time to explain the simplistic. Yes, a merc should be able to customize as long as its is well within the guidelines.. An assault cannot fit a HMG because of its powergrid costs. Meaning, the suit powers the weapon. The suit also uses CPU to process its functionality, where the CPU cost come in. We haven't even discussed the weight and heat matters. But a sentinel can fit a RR. Because the weapon's CPU and PG costs are not as high. The weight is light. Weapon heat is not a problem. So I responded the way I did because lets just be honest, you wanted to be a smart butt about it. Oh and why you quoted the post that was made to respond to the other guy? Is that your alt? I'm not being a smart but about it. Your idea is just plain wrong. The hmg doesn't take up very much cpu or power grid to use at all for an assault suit (after cpu/power grid mods if your not maxed out in the skills) I'm countering your logic about 'everything should be customizable' which thid stament is a false perception. What is happening here is that you want the heavy suit to fill out both the slayer role and the tanker 'I kick your ass with a hmg' role. Lets think logically then. A heavy suit was designed to carry weapons that no normal suit can via an exoskeleton hence why they have such a tremendous amount of health points but the down side is that the suits design means that it shouldn't be able to carry light weapons (or side arms) due to the large scale the hands/arms/whatever need to be to hold said heavy guns. In the beginning there was only a few roles in dust which is the scout class, assault class, logi class and heavy class. Then came the commando a little later on down the track. Now back then the heavy class was only meant to use the light weapons for range combat as a place holder until longer ranged heavy weapons came in - but didn't due to stuff. With CCP Rattati making roles more defined it only makes sense logically that the commando suit fills the role of the 'heavy with the light weapon' and not the Sentinel. Tl;dr your wrong because you love your Sentinel and light weapon combo and should feel bad. Also I'm no alt nor is the guy/girl I just defend people when I feel like it. I hope that too many words in one post doesn't hurt your head as you seem to fail at understanding what the 'H' stands for in the Sentinel suit fitting section. They have a tremendous amount of HP because they are point defenders. Why they are given a 50 caliber weapon in the first place. You're arguing to "win" on the internet and its stupid. I just explained to you why the all weapons can fit on the Sentinel as opposed to Assault that cannot handle a HMG. Also, you're making assumptions. I use a sentinel, yes. But I do not use my Sen with a RR. My Sen only carries FG and HMG. If other people choose to do so, I don't get upset that they are doing it. I just make a personal mockery of them by killing them. Simple as that. Again, players need to understand that because you might choose to make a set up a certain way doesn't mean the next player will do so. It's fairly simple to kill a Sentinel with a light weapon. In fact, it can be argued that the light weapon puts them at a disadvantage. That is, if you know how to exploit it. But that's for you and others to find out. Maybe read the Art of War or something.
Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 184	Posted - 2014.07.10 08:25:00 - [76] - Quote J4yne C0bb wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: If people are so concerned with slayer logis then here's an idea: how about we remove ALL weapons from the logi dropsuit? Boom, no more "slayer" logi. What's your point here? Those early days of 1.0 were fraking miserable for everybody but Cal logis, and you know it. No one wants to see that crap return. The Cal logi suit was ridiculous in the amount of CPU/PG it had -- which is why I suggested that heavy be looked at, cause I suspect it might be the same problem. I've got core to 5, and cpu and engineering to 2, and I can fit just about anything I want on an Amarr heavy suit. My point could be found in my post quite simply. I don't speak in riddles. If people hate the slayer logi so much...better yet for your understanding of my point...if people despise slayer logis then the weapon should be removed since its so highly frowned upon with the general discussion community that a logistics players can actually kill too. I see no problem slayer logis because I have been killed by everything in Dust before. So why does it matter that there are "slayer logis"? I like a guy who can give me reps and then drop the rep tool to pop some melons with me near the frontline. Not trying to be smart, but do you understand my point now?
J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 424	Posted - 2014.07.10 09:25:00 - [77] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: J4yne C0bb wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: If people are so concerned with slayer logis then here's an idea: how about we remove ALL weapons from the logi dropsuit? Boom, no more "slayer" logi. What's your point here? Those early days of 1.0 were fraking miserable for everybody but Cal logis, and you know it. No one wants to see that crap return. The Cal logi suit was ridiculous in the amount of CPU/PG it had -- which is why I suggested that heavy be looked at, cause I suspect it might be the same problem. I've got core to 5, and cpu and engineering to 2, and I can fit just about anything I want on an Amarr heavy suit. My point could be found in my post quite simply. I don't speak in riddles. If people hate the slayer logi so much...better yet for your understanding of my point...if people despise slayer logis then the weapon should be removed since its so highly frowned upon with the general discussion community that a logistics players can actually kill too. I see no problem slayer logis because I have been killed by everything in Dust before. So why does it matter that there are "slayer logis"? I like a guy who can give me reps and then drop the rep tool to pop some melons with me near the frontline. Not trying to be smart, but do you understand my point now? Alright, fair enough, I probably came on a little strong there. But the problem with this is game balance -- you shouldn't be able to perform those roles equally, not by way of suit stats, at any rate. Being powerful in one area should result in being deficient in another. You shouldn't be able to rez, rep, and resupply, and also murder everything that moves, and be able to tank your suit, otherwise there's no point in playing other roles, or even having them. By that same token, we may as well just remove all the medium suits except one, and let people fit it any way they want. And if you like logis who are not afraid of the front lines, and know how to both rep and pop a cap in someone's ass, hit me up sometime, I'll roll with you :) Min Logi \| aka Punch R0ckgroin, fatman
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 159	Posted - 2014.07.10 09:32:00 - [78] - Quote I like Pokey Dravons idea. GÇ£Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.GÇ¥ GÇò Frank Zappa
Sum1ne Else G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1255	Posted - 2014.07.10 09:35:00 - [79] - Quote This is F*King stupid guys! WHAT ARE YOU ALL TALKING ABOUT!? to be honest I am not too sure why the logi is even being discussed, I thought the assaults needed a little love guys.. PLEASE DO NOT PUT IDEAS INTO CCPs HEAD LIKE THIS YOU BUNCH OF MORONS LEAVE THE LOGI ALONE..the only thing wrong with any logi is the post-nerfed cal logi since like 1.2 or whenever. The CPU nerf really damaged that suit, so much it was a dead suit in my inventory up until the most recent dropsuit respec. I found somebody making sense of what to do with it https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=167784&find=unread Impressive? Longest PLC Kill 151.8m - OHK on a Heavy* Logi mk.0 - Commando gk.0 - Scout gk.0
Mikey Ducati Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 187	Posted - 2014.07.10 09:39:00 - [80] - Quote J4yne C0bb wrote: Alright, fair enough, I probably came on a little strong there. But the problem with this is game balance -- you shouldn't be able to perform those roles equally, not by way of suit stats, at any rate. Being powerful in one area should result in being deficient in another. You shouldn't be able to rez, rep, and resupply, and also murder everything that moves, and be able to tank your suit, otherwise there's no point in playing other roles, or even having them. By that same token, we may as well just remove all the medium suits except one, and let people fit it any way they want. And if you like logis who are not afraid of the front lines, and know how to both rep and pop a cap in someone's ass, hit me up sometime, I'll roll with you :) Cool, sounds like some fun.

Pvt Numnutz Prophets of the Velocirapture 1685	Posted - 2014.07.10 09:52:00 - [81] - Quote o7 crazy cat, I recently speced into C-logi and am thoroughly enjoying the role. I have my adv suit and nanocircuitry to 4, unfortunately I'm gonna have to get some more fitting skills before I go on to 5. Just for the record, I'm not being a slayer logi or a hive spammer, I follow my squad and keep them well stocked for the next push (or at least try, I'm still getting use to the role ) I also serve on the line though though in more of a long range support capacity with my RR as I'm much weaker. Anyway, from what I have experienced so far my only gripe is about the reduced speed. Its pretty hard to keep up with my assault counterparts as it is and deliever them the supplies or revives they need. Moving at the speed of a heavy would be fine for a M-logi (tho it wouldn't make lore sense) because his bonus is to reps, but my cal logi serves medium frames just as much as heavies, sometimes even more so. The speed that I move at now is fine, I require some cover fire when moving to a contested area but I am worth the attention if their clips are running low or need some armor, or both. I feel that if I was any slower I would become more of a liability to my squad rather than a sight for sore eyes.
Scar Scrilla Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 275	Posted - 2014.07.10 09:54:00 - [82] - Quote No matter what, if you are really taking away the sidearm from my Proto "CombatLogi" at least give us a triple SP event (cuz a respec is not gonna happen) as incentive please. Cuz for me, the sidearm-believe it or not- was one of the two reasons to skill into A-Logi way back almost a year ago. As the suit's description says: ... " it is also the only Logistics suit with a sidearm". Why nerf diversity? "Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses" "Go and hack the letter(s)" - UN1TE
Mortedeamor Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1799	Posted - 2014.07.10 10:14:00 - [83] - Quote Crazy Cat Lady wrote: The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Charlie * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. * WP for injectors, STD/ADV/PRO 25/50/75 WP I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes. Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower. Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through. Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first. Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention 1 the amar logi has 3 equipment ...thats 1 more than the best scout 2 the amar logi is not speed tankable..its not viable sure you could make it go fast..but at the sacrifice of everything else..and even then your only as fast as the slowest natural speed tanker..(fits only usefull for uplinks) 3 ccp is ruining dust again...i was really hoping the string of proper fixes..was going to continue and then they go and decide to nerf the only class that isnt out of place. 4 they keep deleting everything i have to say on this subject ...wonder why? 5 ive had this logi since day one.and this is a deliberate attempt to ruin some of the only good aspects of dust. these fixes they make no sense they are not needed ccp is fuckin up again and you scrubs are cheering for it...sighs im of to play planetside 2
MEDICO RITARDATO Maphia Clan Corporation 110	Posted - 2014.07.10 10:51:00 - [84] - Quote ... Respec? If the age is on the clock you are ready for the c**k
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 865	Posted - 2014.07.10 11:09:00 - [85] - Quote I'm kind of confused here about all these people asking for the assault suit to be buffed, so that the Logistics suit doesn't need a nerf. What exactly would constitute a buff of this nature? Assault suits can already kill other suits within 1-2 seconds, should some kind of buff occur that makes their kills more instant? Such as merely grazing Scouts and Logistics causes them to die? Last I checked, we had almost capped the possible limits of TTK (time to kill) by having everything die within a second of combat, and now the devs are slowly pulling back from that so that they actually have some room to work with things. It's kind of like the bars on an equalizer set, if you push everything up to the limit, you cannot balance the sound by pushing higher, because the sliders can't realistically go up any further (and if you did splice in an addition to allow the sliders to go higher, it would be the exact same effect as if you had just lowered everything else, but with lots more work) So they've been sliding things down in an attempt to get all the bars into relative ratios that seem acceptable... So, what is acceptable for the ratios between classes? And where are we trying to go with this? Mortedeamor wrote: ccp is ruining dust again...i was really hoping the string of proper fixes..was going to continue and then they go and decide to nerf the only class that isnt out of place. -- ive had this logi since day one.and this is a deliberate attempt to ruin some of the only good aspects of dust. these fixes they make no sense they are not needed ccp is fuckin up again You should have seen this kind of thing coming down the tracks from a mile away, with what happened to tanks and whatnot. They are trying to classify tanks as "support" so they nerfed them. Oh wait, aren't Logistics classified as "support" too? Seems like a very connected change if you ask me. :/ http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2402	Posted - 2014.07.10 11:21:00 - [86] - Quote I'm a jack of all trades now, but my main role on field has always been the logi and here is my opinion on hotfix charlie proposed changes. Same equipment slot for all logi (and no sidearm for the Amarr) Good change, it partially kills diversity but if you have choosen logi to play as a real logi you should be happy to have 1 more equipment slot. Nerf on movement speed Not needed at all, logi are alredy slower than assaults, we don't need to be even slower than commando suits, our job is to bak up troops, if we can't follow them it become a problem. Mandatory equipment slot You say it's too harsh, i say it's your role, there is no point to be a logi if you don't use all your equipment slots, if you don't want to just skill assault suit or any other suit in the game. Cloaked logi Well, i really don't see the problem, use a cloak on my logi it's a thing a would not do, if not for trolling, but that another point. Again, i can't see the problem, cloaked scouts are far more effective than a cloaked logi. WP for revive Seems legit, better injector=more WP, but reviving it's still too slow and if i have a rep tool i will still gain more WP with a STD injector (in most of the case), more an assault thing than a logi thing. While we are at it, i want to remind 2 things: There is no point to skill another logi if you have already one (except if you like the suit), mainly because the bonus set is awful, to much focused on a single equipment, in my opinion it should be focused on survivability. Slot layout of STD suits in certain races is worse than militia suit (hint gal), please change it as soon as possible. PSN: ogamega I'm not a chef, i'm just a man who likes to cook.
aaaasdff ertgfdd Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 83	Posted - 2014.07.10 11:25:00 - [87] - Quote Crazy Cat Lady wrote: The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Charlie * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. * WP for injectors, STD/ADV/PRO 25/50/75 WP I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes. Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower. Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through. Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first. Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention Im not happy with what amounts to tiericide with the logi suits as I am sure this will follow to the others. I like my freedom and choice. Removing the sidearm from Amarr is bad imo, its the suits defining characteristic.
Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 637	Posted - 2014.07.10 11:25:00 - [88] - Quote not logi related but adding a bonus to the Minmatar commando to have +1 RE/Prox carried/active per level would help focus its AV role a little too. as for the logis then balancing the Eqipment across the board would be a nice touch perhaps 3 - STD 4 - ADV 5 - PRO but leaving CPU/PG as is but increasing equipment reduction bonus slightly perhaps to 6 or 7% per level. this would at least help combat the all powerful gallente slayer logi by favoring use of equipment over tanking it out. also add skill bonus to the equipment operation skills. Active Scanner Op - 2% cooldown per level Drop Uplink Deployment - +1 Spawn per level Nanocircuitry - 2% Nanites per level Repair Tool Op - 2% repair amount and range per level its only a small increase to give new players benefit of actually training the skills and still keeps racial focus by also enhancing them further on their respective logi suit. amarr drop uplinks get 5 more spawns per level but someone with proto uplinks can still be competetive to a std/adv amarr logi seeign as they've put extra time into skillign into them. it rewards logis further for investing in their equipment Rolling with the punches
Fire of Prometheus Alpha Response Command 5230	Posted - 2014.07.10 11:31:00 - [89] - Quote Why would you remove the defining feature of the amarr logi? I can use all 4 proto commandos ^.^ CCP, at least fix my ck.0 commandos colour scheme...he looks like the Michelin man
Mortedeamor Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1803	Posted - 2014.07.10 11:33:00 - [90] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: Why would you remove the defining feature of the amarr logi? this all this

Zindorak CaUsE-4-CoNcErN 68	Posted - 2014.07.10 11:34:00 - [91] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: Why would you remove the defining feature of the amarr logi? this all this
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 159	Posted - 2014.07.10 11:35:00 - [92] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Changes made to OP, logi speed not reduced plus some clarificications. here And here GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me." GÇò Frank Zappa
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Cornballs Get Stonewalled 881	Posted - 2014.07.10 13:10:00 - [93] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: Logi's survivability rate is not as high thanks to the changes to reduce the slayer logi. What does it matter what racial suit you pick when logis are the same across the board? It's that diversity that entices. Especially since they said they wanted a dynamic battlefield. More and more CCP is changing that. Lets keep the variety and differences between the racial suits in game. The first statement , I really didn't mind ... the changes because of their nature , they were able to fit more and the fact that you really didn't see the " SLAYER " logistics until prototype really didn't bother me too much and actually should have happened . You didn't see many advanced slayers because the suit wouldn't allow it . That suit at advanced now would be nice but I digress . I did miss for me being a Caldari logistics at the time , was the bonus to shield efficacy and the HP regen . I know it was just one HP but that one saved me many of times . Ask a Gal what any self-regen means and you will find out . It's something that's kind of needed now . To me if you want to give racial bonuses then it should be for what's obvious and that's Caldari = shields , Gal = self rep , Amarr = armor tank , Min = speed / stamina or damage out put if you choose but either or . I say Gal rep because that's unique and no one else can claim that but Amarr can tank like a Gal so to me Amarr = tank . The second one , look ... there is no diversity because of the racial bonuses that are in place . You see the majority of logistics as Min for the reps and Amar for the links and really .. only a few really used that suit for anti-vehicle but that changed soon after like the use of PM's . I don't like the fact that I have to invest in two or three if I want my racial suit ... different races to perform my role of anti-vehicle , being a medic and dropping uplinks seeing the bonus is what increases performance . There will be no dynamic battlefield when you have racial bonuses that forces you to use items instead of highlighting that races strong suit and what they are known for . I have to play a Gal Assault because I perform better with the Plasma Rifle than I do while using RR's and I'm Caldari . If this is the route that this game is going and that's where you basically can tell what someone is running just by looking at their HP's and weapons because everything is the same and it just becomes predictable like how vehicles are now , then those who play the game for variety will go else where . What would appeal to them after that ? You would think that CCP would have given the infantry refund that should have been in 1.8.
Dj grammer Red Star. EoN. 274	Posted - 2014.07.10 13:11:00 - [94] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: J4yne C0bb wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: If people are so concerned with slayer logis then here's an idea: how about we remove ALL weapons from the logi dropsuit? Boom, no more "slayer" logi. What's your point here? Those early days of 1.0 were fraking miserable for everybody but Cal logis, and you know it. No one wants to see that crap return. The Cal logi suit was ridiculous in the amount of CPU/PG it had -- which is why I suggested that heavy be looked at, cause I suspect it might be the same problem. I've got core to 5, and cpu and engineering to 2, and I can fit just about anything I want on an Amarr heavy suit. My point could be found in my post quite simply. I don't speak in riddles. If people hate the slayer logi so much...better yet for your understanding of my point...if people despise slayer logis then the weapon should be removed since its so highly frowned upon with the general discussion community that a logistics players can actually kill too. I see no problem slayer logis because I have been killed by everything in Dust before. So why does it matter that there are "slayer logis"? I like a guy who can give me reps and then drop the rep tool to pop some melons with me near the frontline. Not trying to be smart, but do you understand my point now? Play the role before before accusing people of slayer logi. Play the role. You think it is easy? Play the freaking role why ccp?
Doc DDD TeamPlayers 192	Posted - 2014.07.10 13:17:00 - [95] - Quote Cal logi needs it's cpu back that was nerfed a year ago it doesn't need 4 equipment slots, terrible idea, can barely got 3 proto equip with max skills without using a complex cpu chip now you want to gimp the suit more? Concentrate on the assault buff and revisit the logis later, biting off more than you can chew and its going to be a disaster. Cal assault needs fastest regen for its shields out of all the suits, start there and leave logi slots alone.
Martin0 Brancaleone Maphia Clan Corporation 582	Posted - 2014.07.10 13:40:00 - [96] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? How about NOT NERFING INJIECTORS WP? I was there when injectors were 40wp/revive and NOONE used them. At 25/50 wp? Being revived will be as rare as a miracle. An assist will give you the same wp as a revive, without needing to get yourself in danger/waste a equip slot/pg-cpu. With scouts having almost the same equip, better stealth, hp and speed and injectors having crap rewards logi will go extint. Have fun being drowned by people lamenting noone revive them.
RayRay James Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 221	Posted - 2014.07.10 14:34:00 - [97] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: All 4 suits need to have the same number of total H/L slots. Can you explain why you believe this because I vehemently disagree. The uniqueness of each suit gave the opportunity to create unseen fits and play styles. If every class of suit has the same H/L/E slots, what's the point of running one over the other short of suit specific bonuses (which I don't think makes enough of a reason, personally)? Why bother even having multiple suit types, we can just go back to beta days where there was one of each type of suit. Really easy to balance when there's only one of each class...
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2572	Posted - 2014.07.10 14:35:00 - [98] - Quote Quoted from the other hotfix thread Cross Atu wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: All sorts of cool stuff Loving most of this so far CCP Rattati wrote: All, Hotfix Charlie * Primary Objective Assault buff, we are looking at a HP increase, slight changes in slot layout and improved PG/CPU, slot based approach. Possibly improve Light Weapon fitting bonus. Possibly a slight speed increase. * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. ~~Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus~~. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. * WP for injectors, STD/ADV/PRO 25/50/75 WP 100% in favor of the iterative approach to balance. There are some pairings above with raise a bit of concern however regarding the order in which they're being selected. So here are my concerns. The Primary Objective is fine, in fact long needed. Having the primary facet of the objective be attained by an HP buff (especially of that really is just HP/raw buffer and not actually eHP) is concerning. The Assault niche is not defined by its tank nor even it's slots (though a look at those certainly does make sense) and pinning balance on an HP, or even eHP centric method is very likely to cause role/frame overlap issues between the Assault in light frames, logi frames and the eHP balance on heavy frames. Now that being said the Assault almost certainly does need some love when it comes to eHP, but as the primary or first metric to push rather than anything that helps define their niche and role as LW specialists, that's concerning it strikes me as unsettlingly similar to the logi bonus swap/equipment nerf from awhile back that was a bit too heavy on the 'symptomatic medicine' of addressing the immediate context rather than working for a more cohesive long view. The logistics equipment slot change has needed to happen since the role bonus was changed, it's a matter of internal racial value added from the effects of the role bonus. But removing the Amarr sidearm (especially while it's racial bonus is still improperly apply/bugged) really constrains that racial suit, eliminating and/or not supporting much of a unique role for it. Related, the WP scaling on injectors has been called for since closed beta so thank you for addressing that. It's greatly appreciated. I do have to say I'd hoped for an iteration on it with a more dynamic earnings bonus rather than a raw/hard coded one but I'm guessing this is a tech issue, so I won't look a gift horse in the mouth over this one. It does however highlight the issue of the entire equipment line. The fix to Injector scaling, while wonderful and long needed, is only part of the problem that needs to be addressed. And while there might be reasons that doing it all at once isn't idea, I notice a lack of any overhaul and properly scale the equipment line item on the Delta or later* list. Which makes this concerning. The long running equipment thread I started in closed beta round codex is still present and as yet had not comment from development since the hotfix cycle began. These issues are persistent, directly effect medium frame balance, and need to be addressed. CCP Rattati wrote: Still under tech evaluation Bugs/issues that need Client update Hotfix Delta or later ^Liking these overall 0.02 ISK as of this time Cross Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2574	Posted - 2014.07.10 14:51:00 - [99] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Making a video, and subscribing to this thread to stay up to date with current updates. Amarr Logi bonus is working correctly as the uplinks revert to their normal times when the player dies or switches suits, but will return back to their enhanced times when the player is in the Amarr Logi. I have long disagreed with this iteration of the bonus and I still do. While it may not be a bug it does cripple the suit role reducing niche value. Usually the most likely time for a member of the squad to drop is also the time when they're most likely to see uplinks being cleared off the board, and when they're most likely to have squad/team mates who need to respawn in that area. Having that be the specific time when the bonus does not apply chokes the value of the bonus and thus the suit. It makes the Amarr logi, much like the current iteration of the Cal Scout, most valuable by simply hiding somewhere so their passive mechanics can benefit their squad. This doesn't really promote fun for active game play, rather it takes people out of the game by encouraging them to simply hide. In the present iteration of the mechanic one of the most effective ways to play the Amarr Logi (outside of some top level matches like PC) is to seed the uplinks, then hide in the redline or MCC and essentially afk the battle while racking up WP (and providing greater tactical value to your team than if you'd been Amarr Logi on the field). That, in my view, should not be the most rewarded/encouraged style of game play and as such the current method of apply the Amarr bonus is flawed and needs to change. Quote: I don't feel that any single logistics suit is better than another...and the proposed changes (while slightly weird), make sense to me in terms of overall balancing. All 4 suits need to have the same number of total H/L slots, and Caldari shouldn't feel restricted for fitting space. I have to respectfully disagree here, I really like racial flavor and am dismayed by the idea of it's existence on the Logi frames being relegated to the skill buffs alone. But it was my impression that only the equipment slots are being normalized, no? Quote: I saw a suggestion that Rattai mentioned in the feedback thread...something about increasing the fitting reduction of equipment and reducing cpu/pg. I do not support this UNLESS they do something about the invisible bonus to nanohives that the Nanocircuitry skill gives. Rattai, PLEASE give us your opinion on this and whether you plan on giving all equipment this bonus, whether you will remove it and adjust fitting values for logistics accordingly (or adjust nanohive and injector requirements), or if you just would rather ignore it. Fully agreed, all bonuses should be visible and the whole equipment line (skills and more) needs a rework to be internally cohesive with itself, both internal and external to the various sub-types. Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2574	Posted - 2014.07.10 14:53:00 - [100] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Plausibility of Logistics' equipment bonus applying to racial allies' equipment to a lesser extent..? For instance the Amarr Logi getting (if my numbers are right) a 5% bonus to Nanites and 2.5% bonus to Ammo Replenish speed/repair. Half of what the Caldari Logistics gets. Still gives incentive to specialize but takes a lot of the edge off of some Logistics being far more useful than others while accounting for lack of racial equipment. Yes, Pokey was suggesting something like this awhile back and I was surprised it didn't get more traction. Thanks for bringing this idea up Aeon Having a more 'segmented' bonus to equipment, much as the commando does to damage types, would keep specializations, keep lore in place (allies) and create more possibility for emergent uses rather than being fully pigeon holed by a single sub-category of equipment. Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate

Killar-12 The Exemplars Top Men. 2923	Posted - 2014.07.10 14:56:00 - [101] - Quote Needle WP Good Cloak Irrelevant Speed Nerf Detrimental All slots filled Good Slot Change Good Here's my issues Logis are fine but Could the Amarr and Cal Logis be fixed so that their bonuses stick and don't disappear after death and Make the PG/CPU reduction on the Logi, Assault and Scout FLAT bonuses I know it sounds a bit nuts but for a newer player it's a big deal and can help them greatly. 21-Day EVE Trial
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1210	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:03:00 - [102] - Quote Martin0 Brancaleone wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? How about NOT NERFING INJIECTORS WP? I was there when injectors were 40wp/revive and NOONE used them. At 25/50 wp? Being revived will be as rare as a miracle. An assist will give you the same wp as a revive, without needing to get yourself in danger/waste a equip slot/pg-cpu. With scouts having almost the same equip, better stealth, hp and speed and injectors having crap rewards logi will go extint. Have fun being drowned by people lamenting noone revive them. I think a better way to look at WP for revives might be something like this: 1) you get a base WP award of 35 points per revive for all needles 2) Your WPs beyond the base revive are scaled based on the amount of HP you return to the revived player. Essentially you should get something similar to what you would get if you revived and repped a player up to x % HP. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 1029	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:03:00 - [103] - Quote Crazy Cat Lady wrote: The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Charlie * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. * WP for injectors, STD/ADV/PRO 25/50/75 WP I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes. Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower. Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through. Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first. Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention I'm not a dedicated logi but I'm offering my opinion. Full disclosure: I'm a dedicated sniper but I do occasionally use logi suits for sniping. Overall I think the best idea is the increase in WP for injectors. This plays to the natural role for dedicated logis. The speed reduction isn't a great idea. Dedicated logis need to get from place to place quickly to support their teams. Removing the cloak bonus is probably a good idea. If you want to run a cloak, you should sacrifice elsewhere. I can understand the logic behind harmonizing equipment slot numbers but I would expect that this might cause loss of the differences between the suits. The same goes with harmonizing the number of high and low slots. There will likely be some suits that benefit more from this than others. Will the PG and CPU be left as they are? Is the goal to make all the logi suits the same? The lack of uplink bonus on the Amarr suits should be fixed. I'm not sure what to think about the Amarr suit losing its sidearm slot. Munch Anyone who buys AUR now is a fool.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10783	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:05:00 - [104] - Quote Yay! Crazy Cat Lady! Meows Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2574	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:06:00 - [105] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon. Just stop it. If we go down the path of forcing people to change how they play with making sure light weapons can't fit on sentinels then this will have a ripple effect. This game is about customization. Because you don't use it and its a headache to you, doesn't mean that we should just not allow the freedom of customization to others. Lets not force people to play how we want them to play. /sort of off topic This contention is why I'm a firm advocate of making the Assault viable by honing their niche as Light Weapon specialists. They'd be more effective at long range combat than a Sentential with a LW, they'd be more effective than a "Slayer Logi" (without nerfing the logi frame to make actual support logi even more squishy) and they'd have some role definition that wasn't just about ubiquitous durability (eHP is something that every role wants, and even needs, to some degree and in some form, everybody needs to not just die to provide any role value regardless of their role, so balancing around that is questionable at best). It begins to address so many contentious problems if the Assaults are given the love that role needs by honing their optimum Light Weapon usage. Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
shaun spies shaun Prawnstar101 2	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:11:00 - [106] - Quote Put my game on and realized I need to change my fits as my Caldari logistics suit is over on the CPU. This seriously sucks, really started enjoying my fits.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2576	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:21:00 - [107] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? First, big kudos to Crazy Cat Lady for posting this up and starting the conversation. Second, Change can be frustrating but may open up some opportunity for us Logi players. Feedback on Hotfix Charlie potential Logi updates: 1) WP scaling for needles - spot on and long over due. I would propose a slightly different WP reward mechanism for consideration. Additionally, the nanite injector probably should be effected positively in some way by the Cal Logi racial bonus. 2) Speed nerf to Logi - bad call. The speed of the logi was never what made them a "slayer" the versatility and ability to increase damage or tank was the reason. I think you could actually make a decent case for slightly increasing the base movement rate of the Logi's but not increase the sprint speed since that is more useful in maintaining pace with heavies and scouts on the offense. 3) Evening out the number of modules - need more info on this one. This change, coupled with equipment slot changes, is a major overhaul and you might get close to "over homogenizing" the logi class if you aren't careful. Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to change but it must be carefully considered. Possible smart ideas for consideration: a) Require every equipment slot to be filled. Similar mechanic to requiring a weapon to be equipped; this will not harm logi's in any way since we are already filling the slots. It will, however, discourage folks from rocking all proto mods, weapons, and nades while leaving equipment slots empty. b) Significant bonuses to sidearms. Let me be VERY clear, I'm not a proponent for requiring Logi's run sidearms but I'm OK with incentivizing us carrying sidearms. We could get a 5% reduction to CPU/PG use and 2% increase in Damage per level and that might very well be enough to incentivize fairly significant use of sidearms. c) Look at opening up scaled bonus for equipment across all types. Basically you get the current racially assigned equipment bonus AND you get a smaller buff for the other equipment types. Responding in order by numbered list Spot on - With the side note that if the Cal Logi gets a racial buff to Injectors (not opposed to it) the other three races need some secondary bonus as well (this is actually a positive way to foster emergent game play IMO). Yep - Glad to see the update removing the proposed speed nerf. Needed to happen to promote internal Logi balance due to the way the equipment discount scales. The down side being that it also effects suit wide slot balance and other aspects of the slot configuration may need to be reworked to maintain balance. Possible downside is if it's part of a trend to homogenize the racial logis which would be a crying shame. a) <-- I'm Usually not a fan of requirements like this, but in this case I'd support it. The support logi is in need of love to be ISK/risk vs reward efficient but the "killer bee" effect prevents that from happening. Filling your equipment slots at least ameliorates this issue. b) <-- Interesting, I'll have to give this further thought before I can comment constructively. c) <-- Would be a good way to promote emergent game play and provide a more dynamic ability to balance each logi role. 0.02 ISK Cross Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2576	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:24:00 - [108] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? First, big kudos to Crazy Cat Lady for posting this up and starting the conversation. Second, Change can be frustrating but may open up some opportunity for us Logi players. Feedback on Hotfix Charlie possibly logo updates: 2) Speed nerd to Logi - bad call. The speed of the logi was never what made them a "slayer" the versatility and ability to increase damage or tank was the reason. I think you could actually make a decent case for slightly increasing the base movement rate of the Logi's but not increase the sprint speed since that is more useful in maintaining pace with heavies and scouts on the offense. . . . c) Look at opening up scaled bonus for equipment across all types. Basically you get the current racially assigned equipment bonus AND you get a smaller buff for the other equipment types. Speed is inherently tied to base movement speed. Sprint is (movement) * 1.4 * (other modifiers). I'd actually really like to see the base movement speed of all frames the same with each role having a different sprint modifier. e.g. Gallente Scout, Assault, Logistics, Sentinel, and Commando all move at 5.45m/s while all Minmatar suit move at 5.6m/s. All Sentinel suits sprint modifier on 1.2, Commando 1.25, Logi 1.3, Assault 1.35 and scout 1.5 Logistics need a bonus to all support equipment That's a very interesting idea and merits further investigation. I hope CCP R opens up a thread on this subject (perhaps for consideration as soon as Delta?) to discuss this idea. o7 Cross Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1210	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:27:00 - [109] - Quote One of the concepts I wanted to explore further with you guys is extended bonus beyond the primary racial equipment choice. Several of us have mentioned it and i think it has a lot of merit if handled well. Any thoughts on proposals for how this might shake out? Off the top of my head I was thinking something along the ideas of this: Cal Logi 1) keeps current hive bonus (add increased effect for needles for Cal suits) 2) 2% decrease in spawn times from droplinks per level 3) 2% increase in rep tool range per level 4) 5% increase in range of active scanner per level Gal Logi 1) Keeps current active scanner bonus 2) 1x additional spawn per level for drop links 3) 2% increase in rep tool effectiveness per level 4) 5% increase in nanite reservoir in hives per level Min Logi 1) Keeps current rep tool bonus 2) 5% increased in dmg and blast radius of REs per level 3) 2% increase in nanite replenishment rate in hives per level 4) 2% decrease in spawn times from drop links per level Amarr Logi 1) Keeps current drop link bonus 2) 5% increase in rep tool effectiveness 3) 2% increase in damage / blast radius for REs 4) 2% increase in nanite replenishment rate per level "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Gelhad Thremyr Never 2 Late 324	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:30:00 - [110] - Quote Give the logi a radar range bonus for passive scans !!!!!!! Its a support unit it should be like a home base to stick with...or give it high precision passive detection at close range, since the range amp has been quite nerfed, it would come handy to defeat the pervasive scout slayers that one shot everybody with shotguns ! A natural team counter that would bring balance to the scout\ heavy pervasiveness in the game...

Terram Nenokal Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 346	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:31:00 - [111] - Quote Instead of removing the sidearm from the amarr logi, why not give the gallente a sidearm too? I see both of these logi's in more of a toolbox role compared to the other two, and having a sidearm on them would give each side of the war a unique fighter style logistics role. It's a tough call, but what is the Amarr logi's strength once the uplinks are down? Them having some teeth outside of their seemingly temporary logistics role gives mercs another secondary role after their job is done. They're still outclassed by assaults and commandos, even with the sidearm.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2267	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:38:00 - [112] - Quote Terram Nenokal wrote: Instead of removing the sidearm from the amarr logi, why not give the gallente a sidearm too? I see both of these logi's in more of a toolbox role compared to the other two, and having a sidearm on them would give each side of the war a unique fighter style logistics role. It's a tough call, but what is the Amarr logi's strength once the uplinks are down? Them having some teeth outside of their seemingly temporary logistics role gives mercs another secondary role after their job is done. They're still outclassed by assaults and commandos, even with the sidearm. You could use that logic for the Caldari as well, once their hives go down, their bonus is useless. At least Gallente scanner or Minmatar repair tool cant be destroyed. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1211	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:43:00 - [113] - Quote Guys...i might be looking for a couple hard core Logi Bro / Sis folks for the Biomassed show this weekend. I'm looking for long time varsity level nominees to help represent the community... who do you folks want me to try and get on the show? Ps... sounds like the Devs dig the show as well. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
shaun spies shaun Prawnstar101 2	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:43:00 - [114] - Quote Jack 3enimble wrote: Give the Cal logi its old CPU and PG back. Agree!!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2578	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:43:00 - [115] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Terram Nenokal wrote: Instead of removing the sidearm from the amarr logi, why not give the gallente a sidearm too? I see both of these logi's in more of a toolbox role compared to the other two, and having a sidearm on them would give each side of the war a unique fighter style logistics role. It's a tough call, but what is the Amarr logi's strength once the uplinks are down? Them having some teeth outside of their seemingly temporary logistics role gives mercs another secondary role after their job is done. They're still outclassed by assaults and commandos, even with the sidearm. You could use that logic for the Caldari as well, once their hives go down, their bonus is useless. At least Gallente scanner or Minmatar repair tool cant be destroyed. This is why balancing slots "in a void" is going to most likely net sub-par results. There are a lot of logical reasons to do or not to do, most things if their conceptual context is paired down too far. (As Pokey rightly points out). With the current iterative balance approach ideally I'd like to see the Assaults get their polish pass (one not focused on the eHP which every role needs in some manner to be viable) and then bring the support logi up to snuff. Medium frames are, when the expense of risk vs reward is considered, in a weak spot right now. Ideally I'd like to see that fixed with solid niche definition for the Logi support play and the Assault Light Weapon specialist role being honed before we start to make more foundational changes. Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Jaqen Morghalis Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 346	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:52:00 - [116] - Quote Ugh, I'm getting tired of having to change how I play every time CCP gets it into their head to "fix" something. Originally, I had specced my Caldari Logi for repairing and reviving. Then, when they added the racial bonuses, CCP decided (for me) that I should be more effective at dropping hives than repping. Fair enough, but if I had've known when I created my character that this would happen, I would've probably picked Mini Logi instead for the rep bonuses. But that's ok, I adapted, re-tooled my fittings accordingly and now I spam hives all match. It's a little dull, but I can get pretty good WP out of it (besides, it's nice to be at the top of the scoreboard every once in a while, even if I do so with 0 kills lol ) But now they're talking about messing with Logis AGAIN? Why? Who the hell was complaining about Logis?
The-DON of-DOT-MAFIA The DOT MAFIA 42	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:54:00 - [117] - Quote Jack 3enimble wrote: Give the Cal logi its old CPU and PG back. CAL logi's use a slot for CPU upgrades, because of this imbalance. So YES a reset to old CPU/PG specs. is a valid request.
Kam Elto KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 350	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:58:00 - [118] - Quote how about giving armor reppers the same tiered WPs as is proposed for the needles. other than that leave the logis alone.
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 166	Posted - 2014.07.10 15:58:00 - [119] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: One of the concepts I wanted to explore further with you guys is extended bonus beyond the primary racial equipment choice. Several of us have mentioned it and i think it has a lot of merit if handled well. Any thoughts on proposals for how this might shake out? Off the top of my head I was thinking something along the ideas of this: Cal Logi 1) keeps current hive bonus (add increased effect for needles for Cal suits) 2) 2% decrease in spawn times from droplinks per level 3) 2% increase in rep tool range per level 4) 5% increase in range of active scanner per level Gal Logi 1) Keeps current active scanner bonus 2) 1x additional spawn per level for drop links 3) 2% increase in rep tool effectiveness per level 4) 5% increase in nanite reservoir in hives per level Min Logi 1) Keeps current rep tool bonus 2) 5% increased in dmg and blast radius of REs per level 3) 2% increase in nanite replenishment rate in hives per level 4) 2% decrease in spawn times from drop links per level Amarr Logi 1) Keeps current drop link bonus 2) 5% increase in rep tool effectiveness 3) 2% increase in damage / blast radius for REs 4) 2% increase in nanite replenishment rate per level I like the idea of additional bonus to other equipment for logis. Will this cause issues, in terms of potential lag, when you swap into another race suit in terms of the server side. Basically if I go from an Amarr to a Caldari will there be an issue when the server has to then sort out the calculations of 4 different bonus to equipment that is already out ? Baring in mind there are 32 players & of them a few will be logis. Sorry if that seems like I'm a little thick If that is the case would it be easier to do some thing slightly different, these are from earlier in this thread : bogeyman m wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Change the equipment bonus amounts. Maybe something like: Logi racial equip bonus = +40% Logi non-racial bonus = +20% Non-Logi equip bonus = 0% Pokey Dravon wrote: Equipment Bonuses I think that forcing players to only have bonuses to a single equipment but giving them 3-4 slots is kinda silly. Racial bonuses are sweet, but so are role bonuses. Logi's should be the best at using equipment, period, and even better at using their own racial equipment. I have two suggestions for reworked bonuses for equipment 1. Logi's get full bonus for their racial equipment, as well as full bonus for another race's equipment, such that each has a unique pair. For example Amarr: Bonus to Uplinks & Nanohives Caldari: Bonus to Nanohives & Scanners Gallente: Bonus to Scanners & Repair Tools Minmatar: Bonus to Repair Tool & Uplinks 2. Logi's get full bonus for their racial equipment, as well as a partial bonus for all other race's equipment. I personally like 1 a bit more, but I imagine most will prefer 2. I'd be content with either option. On a side note, I'd actually like all Logi's to get some form of bonus to remote explosives and proximity mines. I feel it really suits their Control and Indirect Combat themes, and would certainly bring and interesting dynamic to those equipment. ] GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me." GÇò Frank Zappa
Terram Nenokal Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 347	Posted - 2014.07.10 16:00:00 - [120] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Terram Nenokal wrote: Instead of removing the sidearm from the amarr logi, why not give the gallente a sidearm too? I see both of these logi's in more of a toolbox role compared to the other two, and having a sidearm on them would give each side of the war a unique fighter style logistics role. It's a tough call, but what is the Amarr logi's strength once the uplinks are down? Them having some teeth outside of their seemingly temporary logistics role gives mercs another secondary role after their job is done. They're still outclassed by assaults and commandos, even with the sidearm. You could use that logic for the Caldari as well, once their hives go down, their bonus is useless. At least Gallente scanner or Minmatar repair tool cant be destroyed. Good point, and I had considered that. It would make sense for the Caldari as much as the Gallente. My reasoning for suggesting the Gallente in particular was mainly so that each side of the war would have a fighter logi and a utility logi.

843-Vika BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 18	Posted - 2014.07.10 16:10:00 - [121] - Quote Jack 3enimble wrote: Give the Cal logi its old CPU and PG back. why so they can go uber tank mode again and be a better assault then the assault class?
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2271	Posted - 2014.07.10 16:11:00 - [122] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: One of the concepts I wanted to explore further with you guys is extended bonus beyond the primary racial equipment choice. Several of us have mentioned it and i think it has a lot of merit if handled well. Any thoughts on proposals for how this might shake out? Off the top of my head I was thinking something along the ideas of this: Cal Logi 1) keeps current hive bonus (add increased effect for needles for Cal suits) 2) 2% decrease in spawn times from droplinks per level 3) 2% increase in rep tool range per level 4) 5% increase in range of active scanner per level Gal Logi 1) Keeps current active scanner bonus 2) 1x additional spawn per level for drop links 3) 2% increase in rep tool effectiveness per level 4) 5% increase in nanite reservoir in hives per level Min Logi 1) Keeps current rep tool bonus 2) 5% increased in dmg and blast radius of REs per level 3) 2% increase in nanite replenishment rate in hives per level 4) 2% decrease in spawn times from drop links per level Amarr Logi 1) Keeps current drop link bonus 2) 5% increase in rep tool effectiveness 3) 2% increase in damage / blast radius for REs 4) 2% increase in nanite replenishment rate per level You've got an interesting approach going on there Jay, let me brainstorm a bit on it. So below I've listed some of the most obvious choices for equipment and pointed out that each could get a bonus to 2 attributes. Repair Tool: Range & Rate Scanner: Range & Precision Hive: Rate & Capacity Uplinks: Rate & Capacity Remotes/Mines: Damage & Radius What if the suit got both bonuses for its racial equipment (Which would be what they have now) and then the full bonus for all others, but only on one of the two attributes. So for example: CalLogi +% To Capacity & Replenish/Repair Rate of Nanohives +% Precision of Scanners +% Range of Repair Tools +% Capacity of Uplinks I'm also a personal fan of giving all Logi's fully bonuses to Remotes/Mines, I think its an interesting and fun mechanic to make the Logi's have their own form of AV but also be kind of the Tactician class by making traps and whatnot. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15854	Posted - 2014.07.10 16:15:00 - [123] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: One of the concepts I wanted to explore further with you guys is extended bonus beyond the primary racial equipment choice. Several of us have mentioned it and i think it has a lot of merit if handled well. Any thoughts on proposals for how this might shake out? Off the top of my head I was thinking something along the ideas of this: Cal Logi 1) keeps current hive bonus (add increased effect for needles for Cal suits) 2) 2% decrease in spawn times from droplinks per level 3) 2% increase in rep tool range per level 4) 5% increase in range of active scanner per level Gal Logi 1) Keeps current active scanner bonus 2) 1x additional spawn per level for drop links 3) 2% increase in rep tool effectiveness per level 4) 5% increase in nanite reservoir in hives per level Min Logi 1) Keeps current rep tool bonus 2) 5% increased in dmg and blast radius of REs per level 3) 2% increase in nanite replenishment rate in hives per level 4) 2% decrease in spawn times from drop links per level Amarr Logi 1) Keeps current drop link bonus 2) 5% increase in rep tool effectiveness 3) 2% increase in damage / blast radius for REs 4) 2% increase in nanite replenishment rate per level You've got an interesting approach going on there Jay, let me brainstorm a bit on it. So below I've listed some of the most obvious choices for equipment and pointed out that each could get a bonus to 2 attributes. Repair Tool: Range & Rate Scanner: Range & Precision Hive: Rate & Capacity Uplinks: Rate & Capacity Remotes/Mines: Damage & Radius What if the suit got both bonuses for its racial equipment (Which would be what they have now) and then the full bonus for all others, but only on one of the two attributes. So for example: CalLogi +% To Capacity & Replenish/Repair Rate of Nanohives +% Precision of Scanners +% Range of Repair Tools +% Capacity of Uplinks I'm also a personal fan of giving all Logi's fully bonuses to Remotes/Mines, I think its an interesting and fun mechanic to make the Logi's have their own form of AV but also be kind of the Tactician class by making traps and whatnot. +1 Though I would hold off on any remote bonuses or proxy mine bonuses for the moment. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Minmatar Sentinel =// Unlocked
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2271	Posted - 2014.07.10 16:18:00 - [124] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: +1 Though I would hold off on any remote bonuses or proxy mine bonuses for the moment. Agreed, that would be a big much all at once, but it's something I'd like people to start thinking about at the very least. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
G Sacred Rubber Chicken Bombers 88	Posted - 2014.07.10 16:19:00 - [125] - Quote Crazy Cat Lady wrote: The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Charlie * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. * WP for injectors, STD/ADV/PRO 25/50/75 WP I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes. Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower. Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through. Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first. Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention Yay logi bro attention. Before this last dropsuit command respec, I was an Amarr Logi, and after it, I play Minmatar Logi. Here is the current setup I run. Note that I have nearly every skill that would have an effect on anything in this setup to 5. Only missing a few like grenadier and drop uplink operation. [Minmatar Logi mk.0] CPU: 485/512 PG: 100/102 [Low Slots[ Enhanced Armor Plates Enhanced Armor Plates Complex Armor Repairer Complex Armor Repairer [High Slots] Basic Shield Recharger Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender Complex Shield Extender [Light Weapon Slot] GEK-38 Assault Rifle [Grenade Slot] Locus Grenade [Equipment Slots] Wiyrkomi Nanite Injector Six Kin Triage Repair Tool Ishukone Gauged Nanohive Stable Drop Uplink The fitting may be a bit costly if I die a lot during a match, but it works wonders. So in regards to the OP... WP for nanite injectors is long overdue. I remember when they still had it. Glad to see it will hopefully be coming back. Speed Reduction. I'm iffy on this one. Even with 330 shields. 429 armor, a shield recharge rate of 25.45, and an armor repair rate of 18.75, I feel squishy. Not even kidding. It melts oh so quickly. My movement speeds stand at 4.61 m/s, and sprinting at 6.77 m/s. I'm slightly faster than heavies, some assaults, and get blown away by scouts. Take note that I am playing as a Minmatar as well. who I believe is the fastest logi in the game, which means other logi are even slower. Logi's aren't meant to be fighting like an assault, so the beauty of them is their ability to run away if the group they are supporting dies. I don't think they need a speed nerf. As for the leveling out the tiers in dropsuits. I am very much against this. You may get PG and CPU bonuses as you increase in tier, but being able to fit more onto a suit with that PG and CPU as you progress because of an extra slot is a huge bonus. Taking that away would leave little reason, if any, to upgrade to the prototype version of a logi suit. Same reasoning for the equipment slot leveling. Cloak bonus? I didn't know logi had one... Even if they do, I've seen maybe 2 or 3 cloaky logis and they all died very quickly. Do what you wish here. Amarr sidearm. Leave it alone until you can give the Amarr Logi its proper bonuses, or you give them something else to make it worthwhile to train into Amarr Logi. Finally I would like to make a recommendation to CCP regarding Logistics. I think it is about time you gave the shield tanking bros a way to benefit from Logi besides Nanohives and revives. I would like to see some kind of shield transporting equipment. This coming from a Logibro who feels bad that he can't keep shield tanking teammates alive for long after they hit armor, and someone who plays a Caldari Heavy on occasion. Yes its nice having a logi bro rep me as I clear a room, and it has saved me occasionally. However, more often than not, I don't have enough reps on my armor to survive. TL;DR (Lazy people) WP for nanite injectors - Yes Speed Reduction - No Slot Changes across tiers - No Cloak Bonus - ? Indifferent Amarr sidearm - Fix the suit bonus first, then talk about removing the sidearm Shield Transporting Tool - Way Overdue
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3699	Posted - 2014.07.10 16:25:00 - [126] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Guys...i might be looking for a couple hard core Logi Bro / Sis folks for the Biomassed show this weekend. I'm looking for long time varsity level nominees to help represent the community... who do you folks want me to try and get on the show? Ps... sounds like the Devs dig the show as well. I'm not exactly "varsity level", but I've been around the block a few times in my Amarr logi (major topic of the day, obviously) and I'd volunteer if I weren't working this weekend. So, I'd nominate Mortedeamor since she rocks the Amarr logi as well as anyone. (The other usual suspects would be CCL, Shayz, maybe RedBleach?) (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2048	Posted - 2014.07.10 16:41:00 - [127] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Um, I just want to say that I love you since I have run Wiyrkomis since I could fit Wiyrkomis and now finally I will be getting a better reward for using them. Any chance that could be applied retroactively? "Heres the deal, in the 40s there was Normandy today you got punks, some need culling real bad." --Truth Logi for Hire
safura trotsky Nyain Chan General Tso's Alliance 70	Posted - 2014.07.10 16:46:00 - [128] - Quote Mikey Ducati wrote: So um, why are we tampering with the logi again? omg this^ Just freaking leave it ccp, ffs.... Thanks for picking me up blueberry!...and again...and again...STAHP!!!
AngelflamesP Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 18	Posted - 2014.07.10 16:48:00 - [129] - Quote Hey here is a proposal! after using small Rail gun turrets i have this to say... just like the Rail Rifle some shots taht you shoot do no register just like the rail rifle at one point I propose a fix for that and a new reticle for the weapon as well.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2273	Posted - 2014.07.10 16:55:00 - [130] - Quote AngelflamesP wrote: Hey here is a proposal! after using small Rail gun turrets i have this to say... just like the Rail Rifle some shots taht you shoot do no register just like the rail rifle at one point I propose a fix for that and a new reticle for the weapon as well. I'm a little confused on that that relates to the to topic of Logistics? Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1

SHANN da MAN D3LTA FORC3 C0VEN 250	Posted - 2014.07.10 17:25:00 - [131] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? I have an idea, but I don't know if you can do it server side only ... Fill ONE of each Race's Logi Equipment slots with whatever YELLOW BPO Equipment (Similar to Starter Fit Yellow Modules) their Race is Bonused in: Amarr - Uplink Caldari - Nanohive Gallente - Scanner Minmatar - Rep Tool Make these Yellow BPO Equipment Modules the same Tier as the Logi Suit: STD Logi gets STD Yellow Module ADV Logi gets ADV Yellow Module PRO Logi gets PRO Yellow Module This would allow you to maintain the higher CPU/PG required to Fit Logi Suits but would limit the ability of players to leave the Equipment slots empty and use the extra CPU/PG to build 'Slayer Logi's' It would also encourage players to use the equipment that the suit is bonused for as it will be automatically fitted (like Starter Fittings). Players will still have the ability to cover the Yellow Module with a different or higher tier module so versatility isn't affected. nothing to see here ... move along
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2274	Posted - 2014.07.10 17:56:00 - [132] - Quote SHANN da MAN wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? I have an idea, but I don't know if you can do it server side only ... Fill ONE of each Race's Logi Equipment slots with whatever YELLOW BPO Equipment (Similar to Starter Fit Yellow Modules) their Race is Bonused in: Amarr - Uplink Caldari - Nanohive Gallente - Scanner Minmatar - Rep Tool Make these Yellow BPO Equipment Modules the same Tier as the Logi Suit: STD Logi gets STD Yellow Module ADV Logi gets ADV Yellow Module PRO Logi gets PRO Yellow Module It's only one Equip slot, the others will still be empty for CPU/PG versatility This would allow you to maintain the higher CPU/PG required to Fit Logi Suits but would limit the ability of players to leave the Equipment slots empty and use the extra CPU/PG to build 'Slayer Logi's' (one Equip slot would always have something in it) It would also encourage players to use the equipment that the suit is bonused for, as it will be automatically fitted (like Starter Fittings). Players will still have the ability to cover the Yellow Module with a different or higher tier module so versatility isn't affected. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2250761#post2250761 Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION 1268	Posted - 2014.07.10 17:59:00 - [133] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: +1 Though I would hold off on any remote bonuses or proxy mine bonuses for the moment. Agreed, that would be a big much all at once, but it's something I'd like people to start thinking about at the very least. Very interesting ideas.... a tactical approach to AV with proxy mines bonuses would be very nice. This kind of thing would be awesome but it can wait for now. Wow you guys impress me! Some amazing ideas floating around on the forums these past few weeks =D The Struggle is most certainly real. MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!"
Christopher Nairn Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7	Posted - 2014.07.10 18:45:00 - [134] - Quote I would like to see a shield rep tool. Also I would not mind giving all logistic suits a side arm slot and removing the light weapon slot putting more focus on support than slaying.
Pvt Numnutz Prophets of the Velocirapture 1687	Posted - 2014.07.10 18:53:00 - [135] - Quote Martin0 Brancaleone wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? How about NOT NERFING INJIECTORS WP? I was there when injectors were 40wp/revive and NOONE used them. At 25/50 wp? Being revived will be as rare as a miracle. An assist will give you the same wp as a revive, without needing to get yourself in danger/waste a equip slot/pg-cpu. With scouts having almost the same equip, better stealth, hp and speed and injectors having crap rewards logi will go extint. Have fun being drowned by people lamenting noone revive them. An increase of wp for reviving people will cause people to stop using injectors? Lol dude, just lol.
AngelflamesP Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 18	Posted - 2014.07.10 19:24:00 - [136] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: AngelflamesP wrote: Hey here is a proposal! after using small Rail gun turrets i have this to say... just like the Rail Rifle some shots taht you shoot do no register just like the rail rifle at one point I propose a fix for that and a new reticle for the weapon as well. I'm a little confused on that that relates to the to topic of Logistics? I may be wrong but i do recall a dev saying about any propositions ;P
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2278	Posted - 2014.07.10 19:39:00 - [137] - Quote AngelflamesP wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: AngelflamesP wrote: Hey here is a proposal! after using small Rail gun turrets i have this to say... just like the Rail Rifle some shots taht you shoot do no register just like the rail rifle at one point I propose a fix for that and a new reticle for the weapon as well. I'm a little confused on that that relates to the to topic of Logistics? I may be wrong but i do recall a dev saying about any propositions ;P Context man. Context. lol Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 30	Posted - 2014.07.10 19:46:00 - [138] - Quote Miokai Zahou wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: Miokai Zahou wrote: Name calling just proves you have no counter to an argument so I'll just take my leave and say that you're idea is wrong and you should feel bad. The only counter I am offering is intelligence. Not even that, its just basic common sense. Some things I figured should go without saying. In other words, there should be an understanding without taking the time to explain the simplistic. Yes, a merc should be able to customize as long as its is well within the guidelines.. An assault cannot fit a HMG because of its powergrid costs. Meaning, the suit powers the weapon. The suit also uses CPU to process its functionality, where the CPU cost come in. We haven't even discussed the weight and heat matters. Oh and why you quoted the post that was made to respond to the other guy? Is that your alt? I'm not being a smart but about it.... If I may contribute my thoughts, I don't think that a Sentinel should be able to fit light weapons. But, I do feel like a regular heavy should be able to fit a light weapon (at least until we get some actual medium range heavy weapons). I'm just going to say this and leave it (especially since this is not the proper thread to be discussing this in).
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 30	Posted - 2014.07.10 20:03:00 - [139] - Quote Now to the matter at hand, I don't feel like Amarr Logis should lose their sidearms. When I studied up to pick my first drop suit I only ever considered the Amarr Logi because it had a sidearm. It is worth noting that all of my drop suits are Minmatar because I like the extra speed, even at the expense of armour. In terms of bonuses, the Minmatar have the best for Logis (whose main tools are of course the Rep Tool and Nanite Injector). Having been a scout-logi for a while now, I share the opinion of the the Amarr logis that if they lose their sidearms, many will simply switch to where I've believed the grass to be greener for a while now. Unfortunately, that will mean an eventual hit to scouts by the misguided nerf-bat of CCP so there can no longer be scout-logis. I can tell you without a doubt in my mind that I haven't seen any slayer logis in a long time now. And the ones I saw then were usually Gallente or even Caldari, not Amarr.
Crazy Cat Lady Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 178	Posted - 2014.07.10 20:04:00 - [140] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? An EVENT that logis can participate in. pretty please

J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 427	Posted - 2014.07.10 20:15:00 - [141] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Guys...i might be looking for a couple hard core Logi Bro / Sis folks for the Biomassed show this weekend. I'm looking for long time varsity level nominees to help represent the community... who do you folks want me to try and get on the show? Ps... sounds like the Devs dig the show as well. I'm not exactly "varsity level", but I've been around the block a few times in my Amarr logi (major topic of the day, obviously) and I'd volunteer if I weren't working this weekend. So, I'd nominate Mortedeamor since she rocks the Amarr logi as well as anyone. (The other usual suspects would be CCL, Shayz, maybe RedBleach?) Yeah, RedBleach LeSanglant is a good choice, if only for his excellent primer The Logi Code. Min Logi \| aka Punch R0ckgroin, fatman
J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 427	Posted - 2014.07.10 20:22:00 - [142] - Quote Christopher Nairn wrote: I would like to see a shield rep tool. Also I would not mind giving all logistic suits a side arm slot and removing the light weapon slot putting more focus on support than slaying. A shield tool would be nice, to rep Cal heavies. I don't really mind encouraging logis use a sidearm, but I just don't want to be forced to. I run either a GEK or a BK-42 on all my suits, and while it makes me more competitive firepower-wise, it does have the disadvantage of not allowing me to fit better equipment, which I think is fair. A CPU/PG reduction bonus to logis for fitting a sidearm instead of L I think is the better choice; gives people options. Min Logi \| aka Punch R0ckgroin, fatman
Killar-12 The Exemplars Top Men. 2924	Posted - 2014.07.10 20:26:00 - [143] - Quote Crazy Cat Lady wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? An EVENT that logis can participate in. pretty please Officer Equipment? 21-Day EVE Trial
843-Vika BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 24	Posted - 2014.07.10 20:43:00 - [144] - Quote @Pokey Dravon so let me get this straight..... you want logis to have more reduction to equipment pg/cpu bonus? for what reason? so that a logi can now carry 2 different reping hives as well as 2 ammo hives, and on top of that be able fit high end shield and armor mods? ummmmm............we had that already.......remember.........it was called 1.? ( forget which patch number it was ).................when it was impossible to kill a loge even with a point blank hmg
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2280	Posted - 2014.07.10 21:55:00 - [145] - Quote 843-Vika wrote: @Pokey Dravon so let me get this straight..... you want logis to have more reduction to equipment pg/cpu bonus? for what reason? so that a logi can now carry 2 different reping hives as well as 2 ammo hives, and on top of that be able fit high end shield and armor mods? ummmmm............we had that already.......remember.........it was called 1.? ( forget which patch number it was ).................when it was impossible to kill a loge even with a point blank hmg Overall their base resources would be reduced to that similar to the assault, so at most they would be able to fit slightly weaker defenses than an assault and the bonus would allow them to still fit a gambit of equipment. They would howerer be lacking in the offensive abilities that othe suits get, thus making them sub-part to the norm in terms of offense. The reason the previous "Slayer Logi" issue was such a problem is because even with the equipment cost reduction, their base resources far exceeded that of other suits, allowing them to forgoe some equipment in exchange for stupidly high defense. The reduction of the base resources and the increase of the equiptment fitting bonus avoids this issue. I'm not advocating that the logi have identical defenses to the Assault, but they need to be similar enough such that they can stay alive in high-fire situations with other units. I would tenitivly suggest the Assault have slightly more base resources, slightly higher speed, and 1 more slot on their main tanking set. As for Hybrid tanking, I think in general medium frames need another pass as to discourage hybrid tanking, but that's something I'd tackle further down the line. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
843-Vika BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 25	Posted - 2014.07.10 22:05:00 - [146] - Quote If they reduced the base cpu/pg of the logi suits then i would agree 100%, that would be a great idea. But since logi's have huge cpu/pg resources especially with the cpu/pg passive skills, giving them even lower equipment reduction bonus would be a bad thing. Also think about how much cloaked scouts are a problem, now add in logis that can abuse cloaks as well. Since cloaks are equipment the cpu/pg would be greatly reduced for that as well. To be honest anything you do to a logi will leave people the option to use it as a slayer instead of a support, and i think CCP is trying to get logi's to be more of a supportive role as they were intended to be.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2280	Posted - 2014.07.10 22:23:00 - [147] - Quote 843-Vika wrote: If they reduced the base cpu/pg of the logi suits then i would agree 100%, that would be a great idea. But since logi's have huge cpu/pg resources especially with the cpu/pg passive skills, giving them even lower equipment reduction bonus would be a bad thing. Also think about how much cloaked scouts are a problem, now add in logis that can abuse cloaks as well. Since cloaks are equipment the cpu/pg would be greatly reduced for that as well. To be honest anything you do to a logi will leave people the option to use it as a slayer instead of a support, and i think CCP is trying to get logi's to be more of a supportive role as they were intended to be. Well that's kinda key to my proposal, the increase to the reduction bonus MUST be paired with a decrease to the current base PG/CPU, otherwise that would be overpowered as ****. I do apologize if that was unclear in my original post. Also they're changing it so the Logi's equipment bonus does not work for Cloaks, so that is non-issue. As for Logi slayers you can't really look at it the same way as you used to. Sentinels and Scouts were a lot weaker back then, then they got proper role bonuses and are now the primary suits used in competitive play because they got a lot better, whereas the Assaults and Logis were largly left behind. Keep in mind that survivability does not make a suit "A Slayer", it just makes it viable in competitive play. What DOES make a slayer are skills and abilities thats boost offensive capabilities, abilities which this proposale of Logi's do not have, but Assaults do. Medium frames in general need to be balanced against Light and Heavy, and then differentiate their roles be giving Assaults additional offensive abilities, and Logistisics additional support abilities. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
843-Vika BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 25	Posted - 2014.07.10 22:35:00 - [148] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: 843-Vika wrote: If they reduced the base cpu/pg of the logi suits then i would agree 100%, that would be a great idea. But since logi's have huge cpu/pg resources especially with the cpu/pg passive skills, giving them even lower equipment reduction bonus would be a bad thing. Also think about how much cloaked scouts are a problem, now add in logis that can abuse cloaks as well. Since cloaks are equipment the cpu/pg would be greatly reduced for that as well. To be honest anything you do to a logi will leave people the option to use it as a slayer instead of a support, and i think CCP is trying to get logi's to be more of a supportive role as they were intended to be. Well that's kinda key to my proposal, the increase to the reduction bonus MUST be paired with a decrease to the current base PG/CPU, otherwise that would be overpowered as ****. I do apologize if that was unclear in my original post. Also they're changing it so the Logi's equipment bonus does not work for Cloaks, so that is non-issue. As for Logi slayers you can't really look at it the same way as you used to. Sentinels and Scouts were a lot weaker back then, then they got proper role bonuses and are now the primary suits used in competitive play because they got a lot better, whereas the Assaults and Logis were largly left behind. Keep in mind that survivability does not make a suit "A Slayer", it just makes it viable in competitive play. What DOES make a slayer are skills and abilities thats boost offensive capabilities, abilities which this proposale of Logi's do not have, but Assaults do. Medium frames in general need to be balanced against Light and Heavy, and then differentiate their roles be giving Assaults additional offensive abilities, and Logistisics additional support abilities. When put into that light i would highly agree with your idea and would support it 100%
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2051	Posted - 2014.07.10 23:10:00 - [149] - Quote Martin0 Brancaleone wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? How about NOT NERFING INJIECTORS WP? I was there when injectors were 40wp/revive and NOONE used them. At 25/50 wp? Being revived will be as rare as a miracle. An assist will give you the same wp as a revive, without needing to get yourself in danger/waste a equip slot/pg-cpu. With scouts having almost the same equip, better stealth, hp and speed and injectors having crap rewards logi will go extint. Have fun being drowned by people lamenting noone revive them. STFU and GTFO you walmart rezzing douche It is incentive to fit Wiyrkomis, so suck it up and drop the 7000 Isk for them. If it is because you don't want to spend the SP on Nanocircuitry 5 then I advise you to refer to my first sentence. "Heres the deal, in the 40s there was Normandy today you got punks, some need culling real bad." --Truth Logi for Hire
Zion Shad ZionTCD Top Men. 2332	Posted - 2014.07.10 23:28:00 - [150] - Quote My fat ass loves my logis. Awesome topic and soaking it in Plus 1 CPM1 Hopeful

J4yne C0bb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 427	Posted - 2014.07.11 01:12:00 - [151] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Martin0 Brancaleone wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? How about NOT NERFING INJIECTORS WP? I was there when injectors were 40wp/revive and NOONE used them. At 25/50 wp? Being revived will be as rare as a miracle. An assist will give you the same wp as a revive, without needing to get yourself in danger/waste a equip slot/pg-cpu. With scouts having almost the same equip, better stealth, hp and speed and injectors having crap rewards logi will go extint. Have fun being drowned by people lamenting noone revive them. An increase of wp for reviving people will cause people to stop using injectors? Lol dude, just lol. Agreed. And if I'm not mistaken, the reason no one was rezzing around that time was because injectors were broken for quite a while, not because nobody wanted the WP. You'd go out of cover to stick somebody, and futz around so much trying to either stick their body, or find where the body originally landed, so you could stick that spot in the ground, you'd get yourself smoked in the process. It became an exercise in futility, until the injectors got fixed. EDIT: oh and... Alaika Arbosa wrote: walmart rezzing haha, literal lol. +1 Min Logi \| aka Punch R0ckgroin, fatman
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1127	Posted - 2014.07.11 01:46:00 - [152] - Quote Saying here the same as elsewhere (with many symphatizers): It's so so sad if Amarr Logi loses it's sidearm. It was the only support suit (=logi) that could fit supportive weapons (=laser, mass driver, swarm). And no, using those without sidearm is suicidical. No matter how beastly killing machine lazor or MD can be, they are just lolfits without trusty sidekick. :-S
Vag Eye Lenol THE SMOKIN GUNZ Dark Taboo 56	Posted - 2014.07.11 02:04:00 - [153] - Quote nay on speed reduction for sure... Between switching and such there is already enough of a speed penalty... speaking from a ps3 controller kinda view. "This first CPM, much like the game itself, is still in a beta phase." <-- I know right?
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1212	Posted - 2014.07.11 03:38:00 - [154] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: You've got an interesting approach going on there Jay, let me brainstorm a bit on it. So below I've listed some of the most obvious choices for equipment and pointed out that each could get a bonus to 2 attributes. Repair Tool: Range & Rate Scanner: Range & Precision Hive: Rate & Capacity Uplinks: Rate & Capacity Remotes/Mines: Damage & Radius What if the suit got both bonuses for its racial equipment (Which would be what they have now) and then the full bonus for all others, but only on one of the two attributes. So for example: CalLogi +% To Capacity & Replenish/Repair Rate of Nanohives +% Precision of Scanners +% Range of Repair Tools +% Capacity of Uplinks I'm also a personal fan of giving all Logi's fully bonuses to Remotes/Mines, I think its an interesting and fun mechanic to make the Logi's have their own form of AV but also be kind of the Tactician class by making traps and whatnot. You idea is pretty sharp and perhaps the cleaner version. I was trying to maintain some distinct flavor for each logi and keep them distinct from each other...i also didn't want to lean too close to the "OP Line". That said, I do like generally idea you are countering with...question (and I hate to ask) is your option a little too much of a buff? that's he only downside I see to your option. Also...I am firmly in the camp that REs must be treated as equipment and not a weapon option. Giving logo's the bonus for RE's is a pretty legit idea. I would also tag them for equipment CPU/PG reduction like all other equipment. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1212	Posted - 2014.07.11 03:39:00 - [155] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: +1 Though I would hold off on any remote bonuses or proxy mine bonuses for the moment. .....Aaaaannd cue the big change to RE's that CCP is cooking. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1212	Posted - 2014.07.11 03:44:00 - [156] - Quote G Sacred wrote: Finally I would like to make a recommendation to CCP regarding Logistics. I think it is about time you gave the shield tanking bros a way to benefit from Logi besides Nanohives and revives. I would like to see some kind of shield transporting equipment. This coming from a Logibro who feels bad that he can't keep shield tanking teammates alive for long after they hit armor, and someone who plays a Caldari Heavy on occasion. Yes its nice having a logi bro rep me as I clear a room, and it has saved me occasionally. However, more often than not, I don't have enough reps on my armor to survive. . Great call, +1. This would give you more options for Rep tools essentially. Your options for rep tools could now have 3 factors you can balance when making equipment selection: armor rep, shield regen, vehicle reps. You could open up to having hybrids that do a bit of both as well. Lot of possibilities with this one and it doesn't need to be an elaborate fix. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1212	Posted - 2014.07.11 03:45:00 - [157] - Quote J4yne C0bb wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Guys...i might be looking for a couple hard core Logi Bro / Sis folks for the Biomassed show this weekend. I'm looking for long time varsity level nominees to help represent the community... who do you folks want me to try and get on the show? Ps... sounds like the Devs dig the show as well. I'm not exactly "varsity level", but I've been around the block a few times in my Amarr logi (major topic of the day, obviously) and I'd volunteer if I weren't working this weekend. So, I'd nominate Mortedeamor since she rocks the Amarr logi as well as anyone. (The other usual suspects would be CCL, Shayz, maybe RedBleach?) Yeah, RedBleach LeSanglant is a good choice, if only for his excellent primer The Logi Code. RedBleach is pretty legit...great work in that thread. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Alena Ventrallis S0VER31GN 1446	Posted - 2014.07.11 03:46:00 - [158] - Quote Speed reduction helps nothing, and hurts logis. More WP for better injectors is spot on awesome. Although I think the WP should be higher (40-60-80) Amarr losing its sidearm is pointless. Rattati has spoken. CalScout hitbox is fine. You're gun game is broken.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1212	Posted - 2014.07.11 03:46:00 - [159] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Guys...i might be looking for a couple hard core Logi Bro / Sis folks for the Biomassed show this weekend. I'm looking for long time varsity level nominees to help represent the community... who do you folks want me to try and get on the show? Ps... sounds like the Devs dig the show as well. I'm not exactly "varsity level", but I've been around the block a few times in my Amarr logi (major topic of the day, obviously) and I'd volunteer if I weren't working this weekend. So, I'd nominate Mortedeamor since she rocks the Amarr logi as well as anyone. (The other usual suspects would be CCL, Shayz, maybe RedBleach?) I'll have to put out the call then. Mortdemor, Crazy Cat, John, Shayz...ping me on Skype or twitter and lets see if we can pull a couple of you on the show. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3715	Posted - 2014.07.11 04:42:00 - [160] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Guys...i might be looking for a couple hard core Logi Bro / Sis folks for the Biomassed show this weekend. I'm looking for long time varsity level nominees to help represent the community... who do you folks want me to try and get on the show? Ps... sounds like the Devs dig the show as well. I'm not exactly "varsity level", but I've been around the block a few times in my Amarr logi (major topic of the day, obviously) and I'd volunteer if I weren't working this weekend. So, I'd nominate Mortedeamor since she rocks the Amarr logi as well as anyone. (The other usual suspects would be CCL, Shayz, maybe RedBleach?) I'll have to put out the call then. Mortdemor, Crazy Cat, John, Shayz...ping me on Skype or twitter and lets see if we can pull a couple of you on the show. Sorry, like I said, I'm working all weekend, its very unlikely I will be able to participate. Tonight or last night would have been perfect. Oh well. But, I will pass along my personal proposal about revamping the equipment bonuses to add to the discussion. Existing bonuses stay, unchanged. New bonus is a global bonus to all equipment types. Instead of trying to pair up the races somehow, or choosing between one of the two parts of a primary racial bonus, just give every logi suit every bonus, but much weaker. So, instead of 10% to spawn time or nanite clusters, etc, you get maybe 3%. So at level 5 you get the 50% out of your primary bonus, and then 15% for everything else. This way, every logi, regardless of race, gets a little extra boost out of whatever equipment they want to use, and scouts are no longer basically just as good at being logi's as logi's are. We've differentiated the entire class just a little bit more. From a design (can't realiy call it lore) perspective it also makes sense in that a military contractor would design a support suit to have enhanced functionality with all support equipment, compared to say a heavy duty combat suit like the commando. Perhaps the individual races would customize them further, explaining the single racial bonus. As for the Amarr sidearm, it just seems like it's something CCP unilaterally decided to do to make their balancing math easier, with no real consideration to, well, anything else at all. The only reason is so they don't have to think too hard about the new slot counts. Nobody complained about it, asked for it to be removed, or proclaimed it OP, just CCP not thinking something through entirely in terms of how it would affect the players. Bad idea is bad. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

axINVICTUSxa DETHDEALERS RISE of LEGION 179	Posted - 2014.07.11 04:44:00 - [161] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? I concur with the ideas on Needles, however, maybe not that extreme differences in bracketing. For example, STD/ADV/PRO nets 35/50/65 WP per revive. Wherever the Wind (Aero) might take me, may it ever be True, for the way of the Commando is noble and right.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2285	Posted - 2014.07.11 05:38:00 - [162] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: You idea is pretty sharp and perhaps the cleaner version. I was trying to maintain some distinct flavor for each logi and keep them distinct from each other...i also didn't want to lean too close to the "OP Line". That said, I do like generally idea you are countering with...question (and I hate to ask) is your option a little too much of a buff? that's he only downside I see to your option. Also...I am firmly in the camp that REs must be treated as equipment and not a weapon option. Giving logo's the bonus for RE's is a pretty legit idea. I would also tag them for equipment CPU/PG reduction like all other equipment. Entirely possible that it may be too much of an equipment buff, like I stated before I'd prefer each logi get full bonuses for 2 pieces of equipment, rather than a sweeping reduced bonus for all equipment. This is primarily because I think it makes them feel more unique from one another, rather than slightly better than the others at a particular equipment. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1215	Posted - 2014.07.11 06:19:00 - [163] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: You idea is pretty sharp and perhaps the cleaner version. I was trying to maintain some distinct flavor for each logi and keep them distinct from each other...i also didn't want to lean too close to the "OP Line". That said, I do like generally idea you are countering with...question (and I hate to ask) is your option a little too much of a buff? that's he only downside I see to your option. Also...I am firmly in the camp that REs must be treated as equipment and not a weapon option. Giving logo's the bonus for RE's is a pretty legit idea. I would also tag them for equipment CPU/PG reduction like all other equipment. Entirely possible that it may be too much of an equipment buff, like I stated before I'd prefer each logi get full bonuses for 2 pieces of equipment, rather than a sweeping reduced bonus for all equipment. This is primarily because I think it makes them feel more unique from one another, rather than slightly better than the others at a particular equipment. My idea was a bit more of a tiered buff with a Max bonus to primary racial equipment option, moderate to light bonus for the others. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2291	Posted - 2014.07.11 06:44:00 - [164] - Quote Sounds good, I'm putting together a preliminary proposal we can all use as a starting point for some more concrete discussion about this. I'll hopefully have a link to the spreadsheet up here tonight. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 923	Posted - 2014.07.11 06:51:00 - [165] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: You idea is pretty sharp and perhaps the cleaner version. I was trying to maintain some distinct flavor for each logi and keep them distinct from each other...i also didn't want to lean too close to the "OP Line". That said, I do like generally idea you are countering with...question (and I hate to ask) is your option a little too much of a buff? that's he only downside I see to your option. Also...I am firmly in the camp that REs must be treated as equipment and not a weapon option. Giving logo's the bonus for RE's is a pretty legit idea. I would also tag them for equipment CPU/PG reduction like all other equipment. Entirely possible that it may be too much of an equipment buff, like I stated before I'd prefer each logi get full bonuses for 2 pieces of equipment, rather than a sweeping reduced bonus for all equipment. This is primarily because I think it makes them feel more unique from one another, rather than slightly better than the others at a particular equipment. My idea was a bit more of a tiered buff with a Max bonus to primary racial equipment option, moderate to light bonus for the others. ive always been in favor of correctly fixing logistics by giving amarr and gallente armor repair. and then min and caldari shield repair tools, and then a secondary equipment bonus. like the equivalent logistics ships would have in eve. though my second choice is a main bonus to the racial equipment and then lower bonuses to the other equipments. its really not fair that a galente/amarr logi doesnt get any armor repair bonus. i agree with you but maybe give them different flavored bonuses like min can keep long range reps, but gallente should get faster reps or low hp multi person reps, amarr get less range but more healing per rep and things like that. so each logi has a different racial style but is still capable of being effective at general logi duties. one race gets more range on scanners, another gets more precision, then 3rd gets fastest cooldown and 4th gets longest active effect time. and repeat this for the different equipments. and switch the slot layouts with the assault suits. so a cal assault would be 5/4 and have a regulator bonus to make it what the old caldari logi used to be like. and it would discourage logis from being combat suits. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
501st Headstrong G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 258	Posted - 2014.07.11 06:59:00 - [166] - Quote LEAVE. THE. LOGI. ALONE There is no reason at all why they should be changed, unless it's to give the Amarr more CPU/PG. I demand a suit respec if Logis only can have Sidearms, and why nerf our speed? Do you realize that putting armor plates makes us slow enough?! The cloak: haha lol I saw a Min Logi do that. Guess what, he died by a Militia Locus Grenade. The Cloak Logi is fine. Just....focus on ANY other thing in the game...Please don't nerf me. Please? There aren't any slayer Logis anymore. If you die by a Logi and I out strafe your LW and sidearm, you got issues bro. Furthermore, I kill because I have proficiency, you know, the thing Logis invest in, as well as Rapid Reload. Slayer Logis exist when we put Core Focused Reps on each other. And Amarr Logis definitely are not the ones slaying these days. Stay away from my logi, I'm begging you CCP From the Clone Wars I came. Here, I am a man among tamed beasts, and a god...among men.- 501st Headstrong.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2057	Posted - 2014.07.11 06:59:00 - [167] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Sounds good, I'm putting together a preliminary proposal we can all use as a starting point for some more concrete discussion about this. I'll hopefully have a link to the spreadsheet up here tonight. Include something about profile triggers, please. What I mean by profile triggers is this: If enemy & within X meters & scan profile >Y, Prox goes boom Y = Profile Trigger Just in case you were wondering what I meant by that. If this were to be included, Prox could act as not only AV mines, but also as AP mines. "Heres the deal, in the 40s there was Normandy today you got punks, some need culling real bad." --Truth Logi for Hire
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2294	Posted - 2014.07.11 07:04:00 - [168] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Sounds good, I'm putting together a preliminary proposal we can all use as a starting point for some more concrete discussion about this. I'll hopefully have a link to the spreadsheet up here tonight. Include something about profile triggers, please. What I mean by profile triggers is this: If enemy & within X meters & scan profile >Y, Prox goes boom Y = Profile Trigger Just in case you were wondering what I meant by that. If this were to be included, Prox could act as not only AV mines, but also as AP mines. I think detection range of proxy mines would make an excellent addition to the Logi bonuses I was talking about and had planned to put it in there for a more mid-term addition. Glad to see others had the same idea. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2057	Posted - 2014.07.11 07:07:00 - [169] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Sounds good, I'm putting together a preliminary proposal we can all use as a starting point for some more concrete discussion about this. I'll hopefully have a link to the spreadsheet up here tonight. Include something about profile triggers, please. What I mean by profile triggers is this: If enemy & within X meters & scan profile >Y, Prox goes boom Y = Profile Trigger Just in case you were wondering what I meant by that. If this were to be included, Prox could act as not only AV mines, but also as AP mines. I think detection range of proxy mines would make an excellent addition to the Logi bonuses I was talking about and had planned to put it in there for a more mid-term addition. Glad to see others had the same idea. It isn't just Detection Range though, it is scalability of Detection. Maybe PRO Prox have a low enough trigger that they will catch Medium Dropsuits, hell maybe they'll get caught by ADV Prox if they're stacking Shield mods (really hoping that we get Profile increases from shield mods) "Heres the deal, in the 40s there was Normandy today you got punks, some need culling real bad." --Truth Logi for Hire
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2296	Posted - 2014.07.11 14:03:00 - [170] - Quote Here's a rough preliminary document we can use as a starting point: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2057	Posted - 2014.07.11 14:12:00 - [171] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Here's a rough preliminary document we can use as a starting point: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing Only change I saw that I would make was the reduction to CPU/PG for Light/Sidearm weapons. If it were up to me solely (which I know it isn't), I'd tie that to their racial weapons, they would still be able to fit other weapons, they'd just be less advantageously fitted than they would be if they fitted their racial weapons. "Heres the deal, in the 40s there was Normandy today you got punks, some need culling real bad." --Truth Logi for Hire
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1218	Posted - 2014.07.11 14:17:00 - [172] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: LEAVE. THE. LOGI. ALONE There is no reason at all why they should be changed, unless it's to give the Amarr more CPU/PG. I demand a suit respec if Logis only can have Sidearms, and why nerf our speed? Do you realize that putting armor plates makes us slow enough?! The cloak: haha lol I saw a Min Logi do that. Guess what, he died by a Militia Locus Grenade. The Cloak Logi is fine. Just....focus on ANY other thing in the game...Please don't nerf me. Please? There aren't any slayer Logis anymore. If you die by a Logi and I out strafe your LW and sidearm, you got issues bro. Furthermore, I kill because I have proficiency, you know, the thing Logis invest in, as well as Rapid Reload. Slayer Logis exist when we put Core Focused Reps on each other. And Amarr Logis definitely are not the ones slaying these days. Stay away from my logi, I'm begging you CCP I think you might want to review some of the Hotfix Charlie notes from CCP Rattati. They are legitimately trying to optimize medium suits (Assautls / Logi) and I'm pretty sure the answer isn't to "Leave The Logi Alone". CCP Rattati has already dropped the notion of lowering movement speed and after some pretty good forum kung-fu by ZDUB he might even be considering adding a sidearm to Cal Logi. He's also looking at adding equipment slots to Cal / Gal / Amarr. No one is really looking at a nerf to logi suits....it's just a bit of the interconnected issue with making Assault suits better. The easiest answer to that is make Assaults better at offensive gameplay and Logi's better at supporting our team. None of that should equal a nerf...far from it. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1218	Posted - 2014.07.11 14:20:00 - [173] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Here's a rough preliminary document we can use as a starting point: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing Only change I saw that I would make was the reduction to CPU/PG for Light/Sidearm weapons. If it were up to me solely (which I know it isn't), I'd tie that to their racial weapons, they would still be able to fit other weapons, they'd just be less advantageously fitted than they would be if they fitted their racial weapons. I really disagree with that. I think you should get a corresponding bonus to what the Assaults have which is a blanket CPU/PG reduction for LW. In fact, CCP Rattati is looking at a similar resources cost reduction for heavy suits. Additionally...with the current array of sidearms you don't have anywhere near the parity that you have in the LW rifle class. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1218	Posted - 2014.07.11 14:26:00 - [174] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Here's a rough preliminary document we can use as a starting point: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing Good work, Pokey. I really do think that REs need to be in the mix for Equipment. I'll open myself up to some hate face but if you don't treat REs like equipment to incentives usage by logi suits then make the RE an option in the grenade slot - you have to choose one or the other. The RE fits in an equipment slot but is skilled from the Weapons skill tree (same one as Grenades). I think the distinction needs to be made. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
M1tch Rapp Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 150	Posted - 2014.07.11 14:36:00 - [175] - Quote Yoma Carrim wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: If you must know what Cal Logis got in exchange for the missing equipment, it was their 9th module slot. That's only at Proto. STD and ADV kina just get messed over And really that slot doesn't count. It's a CPU mod if you want a remotely decent fit.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 3098	Posted - 2014.07.11 14:58:00 - [176] - Quote Here are links to everything i've posted on the subject. While my suggestions are certainly not the only path we can take to finding balance between the different racial logistics suits, I hope my concerns have sparked enough discussion for people to get an idea of how fragile the equipment based nature of the logistics really is. I have some serious concerns that we could find ourselves back in a situation where there is only one 'viable' logistics suit and the other 3 are purely for flavor/RP... I really don't want to see us fall back into that situation (Cal Logi, pre 1.4 anybody?) https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2250052#post2250052 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2251431#post2251431 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2253127#post2253127 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2253147#post2253147 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2253428#post2253428
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1219	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:12:00 - [177] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Here are links to everything i've posted on the subject. While my suggestions are certainly not the only path we can take to finding balance between the different racial logistics suits, I hope my concerns have sparked enough discussion for people to get an idea of how fragile the equipment based nature of the logistics really is. I have some serious concerns that we could find ourselves back in a situation where there is only one 'viable' logistics suit and the other 3 are purely for flavor/RP... I really don't want to see us fall back into that situation (Cal Logi, pre 1.4 anybody?) https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2250052#post2250052 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2251431#post2251431 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2253127#post2253127 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2253147#post2253147 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2253428#post2253428 ZDUB...you hit the nail not the head. Conceptually, the 4 logi suits should all be able to supply a baseline level of logi / team support that is optimized for their role. The flavor or specialization in the racial variances should give you the tactical and game play variety. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2297	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:17:00 - [178] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Here's a rough preliminary document we can use as a starting point: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing Good work, Pokey. I really do think that REs need to be in the mix for Equipment. I'll open myself up to some hate face but if you don't treat REs like equipment to incentives usage by logi suits then make the RE an option in the grenade slot - you have to choose one or the other. The RE fits in an equipment slot but is skilled from the Weapons skill tree (same one as Grenades). I think the distinction needs to be made. Id consider this a short term, immediate change proposal. In general there are some fundamental changes I would make to how bonus progression works but that would need to be a philosophy applied to all suits, not just mediums. In the mid-term, absolutely add the bonuses for remotes/proxies. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1220	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:20:00 - [179] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Here are links to everything i've posted on the subject. While my suggestions are certainly not the only path we can take to finding balance between the different racial logistics suits, I hope my concerns have sparked enough discussion for people to get an idea of how fragile the equipment based nature of the logistics really is. ..... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2251431#post2251431 ZDUB...I really like the thought process on this but I will offer two points and would appreciate your opinion: 1) Shouldn't you take into account the tank style preference in speed / HP discussion? Strikes me the that the shield-centric Cal / Min logi suits should be the "faster" suits that favor regen over buffer. 2) I think if you have a more combat oriented logi (3x EQ and L/S and less mod slots as you propose) then they should get a minor buff for a weapon or grenade usage? Nothing earth shaking, perhaps a fitting bonus or secondary weapon skill or even an extra grenade you can carry. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
M1tch Rapp Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 151	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:26:00 - [180] - Quote What if you had a light weapon slot on a logi, but the suits were bonused fairly heavily with sidearm bonuses? I hate the idea of sidearm only, but I think the slayer logi thing is such a sticking point for many. The logi suits aren't being used as slayer platforms anymore by competitive players but maybe something like this opens up the possibility of rational talk about logi suits by the masses.

ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 3100	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:37:00 - [181] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Here are links to everything i've posted on the subject. While my suggestions are certainly not the only path we can take to finding balance between the different racial logistics suits, I hope my concerns have sparked enough discussion for people to get an idea of how fragile the equipment based nature of the logistics really is. ..... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2251431#post2251431 ZDUB...I really like the thought process on this but I will offer two points and would appreciate your opinion: 1) Shouldn't you take into account the tank style preference in speed / HP discussion? Strikes me the that the shield-centric Cal / Min logi suits should be the "faster" suits that favor regen over buffer. 2) I think if you have a more combat oriented logi (3x EQ and L/S and less mod slots as you propose) then they should get a minor buff for a weapon or grenade usage? Nothing earth shaking, perhaps a fitting bonus or secondary weapon skill or even an extra grenade you can carry. hm... So for the first question.. I might be a little confused on the question but here are my thoughts on it: Base stats for each suit already relatively define the speed and hp profile you should expect from each suit. The Logistics suits themselves have always favored buffer specifically because of their relatively low regen rates and move speed. You can't play a logi like a scout, you can't move/strafe as fast as a scout and you don't benefit from the increased base regeneration. These are the kinds of traits that define the capabilities of each class. A combat focused logi should always remain less capable in combat than a true combat centric class. Just like EVE, I don't necessarily believe that shield users should automatically be faster just because they use shields, but the nature of shields in Dust requires that you have to rely on your regeneration somewhat if you want to play on an equal field to armor based suits. This is a tough discussion in its own right, and i'm not sure it necessarily defines the logistics discussion. I will say this though... and you've probably already figured it out from my posts. If we normalize the capabilities of each logistics suit in terms of racial bonuses, then the most desired and viable logistics suit will almost automatically be defined by the state of armor/shield balance. As the current meta remains armor focused, I feel the Gallente suit will remain the most combat capable logistics suit, should they all be changed to have no sidearm. I do believe it makes more sense to have a shield focused and armor focused suit for each 'role' in the logistics field, which in line with the current meta. The Caldari remains a shield focused combat logi while the Min remains a shield focused support logi. The same thoughts apply to the Amarr and Gallente respectively. and for the second question: Absolutely not, the combat logi role I propose should never have a combat focused bonus. The combat logi is acting as a hybrid, and should absolutely pay the hybrid price for it. Logistics suits should always have logistics bonuses, the combat logi should still remain a logistics focused suit, just with more combat potential than a true 4 equip logistics. The price you pay for playing combat logi over, say, an assault or scout is that you receive no bonus for the combat focus of the play style. This is how you balance the 'Slayer Logi' problem. I hope that answers some of your thoughts.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1220	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:38:00 - [182] - Quote M1tch Rapp wrote: What if you had a light weapon slot on a logi, but the suits were bonused fairly heavily with sidearm bonuses? I hate the idea of sidearm only, but I think the slayer logi thing is such a sticking point for many. The logi suits aren't being used as slayer platforms anymore by competitive players but maybe something like this opens up the possibility of rational talk about logi suits by the masses. I think the sidearm bonus is more effective when you are only carrying one weapon since the LW will remain the primary weapon option for the logi (really any suit that carries LW / S). You would have to have a really serious bonus to the sidearm that essentially upgraded the sidearm to being at least as effective as the carried LW. More grenades carried (no more than 2x extra) and and mild fitting bonus to weapons seem like it might be a little better option. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
M1tch Rapp Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 151	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:46:00 - [183] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: M1tch Rapp wrote: What if you had a light weapon slot on a logi, but the suits were bonused fairly heavily with sidearm bonuses? I hate the idea of sidearm only, but I think the slayer logi thing is such a sticking point for many. The logi suits aren't being used as slayer platforms anymore by competitive players but maybe something like this opens up the possibility of rational talk about logi suits by the masses. I think the sidearm bonus is more effective when you are only carrying one weapon since the LW will remain the primary weapon option for the logi (really any suit that carries LW / S). You would have to have a really serious bonus to the sidearm that essentially upgraded the sidearm to being at least as effective as the carried LW. More grenades carried (no more than 2x extra) and and mild fitting bonus to weapons seem like it might be a little better option. Being able to carry a sidearm where the proto fits like an ADV and gets a bigger clip or something. Giving you the further ability to fit a better tank while carrying proto equipment. I'm not saying I like it, but gimping the module slots on the logi suit just seems like a terrible idea (not saying that's what you are proposing, just looking at other proposals). It's too damn expensive to carry 4 pieces of proto equipment on a glass cannon.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2297	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:52:00 - [184] - Quote ZDub, your comment about overly flatlining the equipment bonuses is exactly why I preferd the one racial bonus plus a single secondary racial bonus that makes sense. Adding too many bonuses and the Logi's all start looking the game. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing Added an alternative which I actually prefer (barring the need to add the remote/proxy bonus Id like as well) Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1220	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:57:00 - [185] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Here are links to everything i've posted on the subject. While my suggestions are certainly not the only path we can take to finding balance between the different racial logistics suits, I hope my concerns have sparked enough discussion for people to get an idea of how fragile the equipment based nature of the logistics really is. ..... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2251431#post2251431 ZDUB...I really like the thought process on this but I will offer two points and would appreciate your opinion: 1) Shouldn't you take into account the tank style preference in speed / HP discussion? Strikes me the that the shield-centric Cal / Min logi suits should be the "faster" suits that favor regen over buffer. 2) I think if you have a more combat oriented logi (3x EQ and L/S and less mod slots as you propose) then they should get a minor buff for a weapon or grenade usage? Nothing earth shaking, perhaps a fitting bonus or secondary weapon skill or even an extra grenade you can carry. hm... So for the first question.. I might be a little confused on the question but here are my thoughts on it: Base stats for each suit already relatively define the speed and hp profile you should expect from each suit. The Logistics suits themselves have always favored buffer specifically because of their relatively low regen rates and move speed. You can't play a logi like a scout, you can't move/strafe as fast as a scout and you don't benefit from the increased base regeneration. These are the kinds of traits that define the capabilities of each class. A combat focused logi should always remain less capable in combat than a true combat centric class. Just like EVE, I don't necessarily believe that shield users should automatically be faster just because they use shields, but the nature of shields in Dust requires that you have to rely on your regeneration somewhat if you want to play on an equal field to armor based suits. This is a tough discussion in its own right, and i'm not sure it necessarily defines the logistics discussion. I will say this though... and you've probably already figured it out from my posts. If we normalize the capabilities of each logistics suit in terms of racial bonuses, then the most desired and viable logistics suit will almost automatically be defined by the state of armor/shield balance. As the current meta remains armor focused, I feel the Gallente suit will remain the most combat capable logistics suit, should they all be changed to have no sidearm. I do believe it makes more sense to have a shield focused and armor focused suit for each 'role' in the logistics field, which in line with the current meta. The Caldari remains a shield focused combat logi while the Min remains a shield focused support logi. The same thoughts apply to the Amarr and Gallente respectively. and for the second question: Absolutely not, the combat logi role I propose should never have a combat focused bonus. The combat logi is acting as a hybrid, and should absolutely pay the hybrid price for it. Logistics suits should always have logistics bonuses, the combat logi should still remain a logistics focused suit, just with more combat potential than a true 4 equip logistics. The price you pay for playing combat logi over, say, an assault or scout is that you receive no bonus for the combat focus of the play style. This is how you balance the 'Slayer Logi' problem. I hope that answers some of your thoughts. In regards to the shield / amor tank question - that was in response to your comment that, broadly, the Cal / Amar should be slower and with more HP as opposed to your Gal / Min counterparts. The suit speed for example for the Gal / Cal is the same and they have the same raw HP value but with swapped shield / armor values. It sounded like you were talking about changing the base values of those suits which is where my question was generated. In reference to the comment on not having combat related bonus for Logis...i see your point, however, I don't think it's as clear cut as that. The loss of the mod slots versus the pure support module doesn't make sense to me in relation to the other changes. The other piece of that is that if you are treating the Amarr and Cal as more combat logistics oriented suits they should get some minor fitting bonus for at least one of the weapon slots. The simple addition of a sidearm doesn't off-set things. The fitting equipment fitting advantage of the GAL / Min suits would still overshadow the other two suits from an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint. The other piece of that is that your premise (which i don't necessarily disagree with) is based purely on arbitrary racial equipment bonuses. Assuming the assault suits get a proper buff / optimization it might very well leave the Amarr / Cal logi suits in a bad spot. Not good enough to be true offensive options and not good enough to be high value team support. I think it would be a fine line in making those two suits drop much lower in the relative value...particularly at higher end play. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1220	Posted - 2014.07.11 16:00:00 - [186] - Quote M1tch Rapp wrote: Being able to carry a sidearm where the proto fits like an ADV and gets a bigger clip or something. Giving you the further ability to fit a better tank while carrying proto equipment. I'm not saying I like it, but gimping the module slots on the logi suit just seems like a terrible idea (not saying that's what you are proposing, just looking at other proposals). It's too damn expensive to carry 4 pieces of proto equipment on a glass cannon. I don't think it will buy as much CPU / PG as you think....you would have to at least be able to trade the appropriate amount of CPU/PG to fit the requisite tier tank mod (buffer or regen). "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
M1tch Rapp Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 151	Posted - 2014.07.11 16:05:00 - [187] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: M1tch Rapp wrote: Being able to carry a sidearm where the proto fits like an ADV and gets a bigger clip or something. Giving you the further ability to fit a better tank while carrying proto equipment. I'm not saying I like it, but gimping the module slots on the logi suit just seems like a terrible idea (not saying that's what you are proposing, just looking at other proposals). It's too damn expensive to carry 4 pieces of proto equipment on a glass cannon. I don't think it will buy as much CPU / PG as you think....you would have to at least be able to trade the appropriate amount of CPU/PG to fit the requisite tier tank mod (buffer or regen). You are right, it wouldn't. Like I said, I don't particularly like the idea myself. More of a possible compromise for all the folks with hard-ons for logis.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 3100	Posted - 2014.07.11 16:05:00 - [188] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: ZDub, your comment about overly flatlining the equipment bonuses is exactly why I preferd the one racial bonus plus a single secondary racial bonus that makes sense. Adding too many bonuses and the Logi's all start looking the game. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing Added an alternative which I actually prefer (barring the need to add the remote/proxy bonus Id like as well) So your first proposal is essentially a flattening of bonused, which is exactly what i'm worried about. Why would I run Min Logi when I can get half that bonus on Gal Logi but with far better tank and slot layout? These are the kinds of questions that theorycrafters and FOTM spammers will ask themselves. You are giving 60% of the rate bonus to Gallente, that last 2% per level is likely not worth it except for the few diehard reppers. The Gallente logi in your first proposal seems almost universally better to me than the Min logi. I'm also not sure we need a general buff to the capabilities of proto equipment on the order of 10%-50% based on your stats. I also see such a large list of bonuses and all I can think to myself is how 80% of them will be broken on patch day... I discuss in one of my posts that we could just generally reduce the cost of proto equipment to encourage logis to use more of it and thereby increasing our logistics capability naturally, without adding in 12-16 new bonuses across four suits. Either way could technically work, but i kind of like my proposal better because it encourages specialization and diversity and it doesn't flatten the bonus differential between sutis. The alternative you proposed looks better, although I don't think logi suits need EHP or any sort of combat focused bonus. Those kinds of bonuses just encourage the slayer logi condition. A well balance module layout and appropriate values for fitting resources is all that is needed for logis imo. The secondary bonus effect still worries me though... look at your proposal for Min Logi... it pretty much renders Amarr Logi obsolete... especially if we normalize to 4 equip and no sidearm. Rep bonus and most of Amarr's uplink bonus? Sign me up! No reason to play Amarr Logi in this scenario, the nanohive capacity doesn't make up for it... Proto nanohives do just fine without a bonus. These are my thoughts and concerns... I know not everyone feels this way... but its the way you think when you play hyper-competitively (PC level kind of stuff). "What gives me the most advantage over my opponent?" and then spam it until its nerfed...
M1tch Rapp Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 151	Posted - 2014.07.11 16:11:00 - [189] - Quote It may have been discussed already, but I'm just now getting the stomach to even talk about logi stuff after all the QQ for the last 6 months. To me the spam issue would have been solved by removing the 480 variants of each type of equipment. Then provide a skill bonus as you level up the skill to V. Further bonused by the logi suits themselves. This way the max deployed comes into play, instead of just having suits set up with all the different variants allowing for 20+ nanohives or uplinks that some people throw out. Sorry to derail what looks like some solid suit bonus/slot discussion, just thought it should be mentioned as the spam issue is something people hate on logis the most for.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 3100	Posted - 2014.07.11 16:19:00 - [190] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: In regards to the shield / amor tank question - that was in response to your comment that, broadly, the Cal / Amar should be slower and with more HP as opposed to your Gal / Min counterparts. The suit speed for example for the Gal / Cal is the same and they have the same raw HP value but with swapped shield / armor values. It sounded like you were talking about changing the base values of those suits which is where my question was generated. In reference to the comment on not having combat related bonus for Logis...i see your point, however, I don't think it's as clear cut as that. The loss of the mod slots versus the pure support module doesn't make sense to me in relation to the other changes. The other piece of that is that if you are treating the Amarr and Cal as more combat logistics oriented suits they should get some minor fitting bonus for at least one of the weapon slots. The simple addition of a sidearm doesn't off-set things. The equipment fitting advantage of the GAL / Min suits would still overshadow the other two suits from an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint. The other piece of that is that your premise (which i don't necessarily disagree with) is based purely on arbitrary racial equipment bonuses. Assuming the assault suits get a proper buff / optimization it might very well leave the Amarr / Cal logi suits in a bad spot. Not good enough to be true offensive options and not good enough to be high value team support. I think it would be a fine line in making those two suits drop much lower in the relative value...particularly at higher end play. Okay yeah... So I see your thoughts there. The idea that a shield user should be faster than an armor user of the same type makes sense and is correct. I just think that support focused logis need the extra speed to offset a lack of offensive capability, they are supposed to move around and support the team where needed. I worry about giving too much speed to this idea of a combat logi just to ensure we don't overshadow the capabilities of the assault class persay. When I speak of these differences, they would probably have to be relatively minor... You might be right, variance in move speed may not be appropriate at all. For the second part... keep in mind... with a loss of a module and an equipment slot, they should be doing quite well in the fitting department compared to Min/Gal Logis and have plenty of fitting space to fit decent weaponry without a fitting bonus. Now... if these changes did go through and the community finds the combat potential of these logi suits to be lacking, then changes can be made in future hotfixes. This is an iterative process and things are never right the first time. However... don't underestimate the combat potential of a sidearm. I do quite well with the Amarr logi, despite it being labelled as one of the weakest logi suits, purely because I have a Min ASMG for CQC. I think you would find that once sidearms are looked at in a future hotfix, this idea of a combat logi could be quite viable. Its not for everyone though, its all about variety of playstyles right?

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2298	Posted - 2014.07.11 16:25:00 - [191] - Quote ZDub, I feel that general tanking mechanic should be determined by the frame and not the role. The Slay Logi is discouraged because the resources without equipment is less than that of an assault. That paired with the lack of offensive bonuses make it a pretty ****** faux-Assault. I think that the Logi needs to have some sort of survivability bonus to keep up with the assault, though not exceed it. Now if it was a slightly weaker version of the Assault's bonus, that's reasonable. As stated at the time this is preliminary, so by no means is any of this a finalized idea in my mind. I purposefully left the secondary bonus in the alternative without a integer because I think it may be best to make it a weaker bonus, meaning that the racially appropriate suit will still exceed any secondary bonus the other suit may have. Also as I stated off on the left there, Amarr Logi should retain it's sidearm, it's removal takes away much of its appeal. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game Dark Taboo 1556	Posted - 2014.07.11 16:31:00 - [192] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? lol if we were smart we would be doing something else until after you fix this fix lol :) All Hail Legion
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 3100	Posted - 2014.07.11 16:42:00 - [193] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: ZDub, I feel that general tanking mechanic should be determined by the frame and not the role. The Slay Logi is discouraged because the resources without equipment is less than that of an assault. That paired with the lack of offensive bonuses make it a pretty ****** faux-Assault. I think that the Logi needs to have some sort of survivability bonus to keep up with the assault, though not exceed it. Now if it was a slightly weaker version of the Assault's bonus, that's reasonable. As stated at the time this is preliminary, so by no means is any of this a finalized idea in my mind. I purposefully left the secondary bonus in the alternative without a integer because I think it may be best to make it a weaker bonus, meaning that the racially appropriate suit will still exceed any secondary bonus the other suit may have. Also as I stated off on the left there, Amarr Logi should retain it's sidearm, it's removal takes away much of its appeal. I looked at the spreadsheet again and scrolled a little further right and noticed you intend to give those bonuses to the assault suits too. Your idea is more to reinforce the tanking style of each race and less about survivability of any specific suit type. I like that a lot actually... would this 'racial bonus' extend to all suits of a particular racial type? I could see a pretty convincing argument that logi base stats could be bumped up to (or close to) assault levels to help increase their survivability, especially if we normalize the slot layout between the two classes.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2298	Posted - 2014.07.11 17:00:00 - [194] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I looked at the spreadsheet again and scrolled a little further right and noticed you intend to give those bonuses to the assault suits too. Your idea is more to reinforce the tanking style of each race and less about survivability of any specific suit type. I like that a lot actually... would this 'racial bonus' extend to all suits of a particular racial type? Possibly with lower values... 2% for lights, 5% for mediums, and 8-10% for heavies perhaps? I could see a pretty convincing argument that logi base stats could be bumped up to (or close to) assault levels to help increase their survivability, especially if we normalize the slot layout between the two classes. As to the comment on that... would it make more sense to make the Minmatar base recharge delay lower while giving them a recharger module bonus? I do, personally, believe that Caldari would be very viable if they returned to a buffer tank type with an extender bonus. This reinforces that they perfer longer range engagements where shield hp is preferred somewhat over recharge rate? Rep bonus on Gallente.. check - 100% agreed. Armor plate speed penalty may not be that viable for an already terribly slow set of suits for Amarr... would an Armor plate value bonus make more sense? I always felt that Amarr are the EHP kings, slow but massive buffer tanks... Actually I was kinda knocking around the idea that each of the 3 frames get their own "type" of tanking. Mediums are Active tank and focus more on HP regeneration (Amarr is a bit of a black sheep here unfortunately) Heavies are Buffer tank and focus on having a lot of HP but unable to get it back quickly Lights are Speed tanked, low HP with decent regeneration but rely on getting behind cover and quickly flanking to avoid direct fire and combat. Ultimately I'd like to tie these bonuses to the Frame skill itself, so for example instead of the Caldari Logistics getting the +5% to Shield Rechargers / Lvl of Caldari Logistics, it would be /Lvl of Caldari Medium Frames. This gives the Frame skill more of a purpose and also allows players to go into Caldari Assault, and start off with that same bonus to defenses right off the bat. Though you would need to do all frames at the same time, so I'm holding off on that for the moment and just tying the skill to the Logi skill. As for the specific bonuses, I've been really conflicted on if the Caldari should get rechargers or if they should get regulators, and then the Minmatar getting whatever the Caldari doesn't use. The Amarr are tricky, I really wanted to avoid giving them more HP since as I outlined above, that's more of a Heavy thing. However the Amarr are the brick tanks of EVE, so I felt reducing the speed penalty allowed them to put more plates on, but didn't directly give them more HP. It is admittedly not an ideal bonus so I'm open to suggestions. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 3100	Posted - 2014.07.11 17:10:00 - [195] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Actually I was kinda knocking around the idea that each of the 3 frames get their own "type" of tanking. Mediums are Active tank and focus more on HP regeneration (Amarr is a bit of a black sheep here unfortunately) Heavies are Buffer tank and focus on having a lot of HP but unable to get it back quickly Lights are Speed tanked, low HP with decent regeneration but rely on getting behind cover and quickly flanking to avoid direct fire and combat. Ultimately I'd like to tie these bonuses to the Frame skill itself, so for example instead of the Caldari Logistics getting the +5% to Shield Rechargers / Lvl of Caldari Logistics, it would be /Lvl of Caldari Medium Frames. This gives the Frame skill more of a purpose and also allows players to go into Caldari Assault, and start off with that same bonus to defenses right off the bat. Though you would need to do all frames at the same time, so I'm holding off on that for the moment and just tying the skill to the Logi skill. As for the specific bonuses, I've been really conflicted on if the Caldari should get rechargers or if they should get regulators, and then the Minmatar getting whatever the Caldari doesn't use. The Amarr are tricky, I really wanted to avoid giving them more HP since as I outlined above, that's more of a Heavy thing. However the Amarr are the brick tanks of EVE, so I felt reducing the speed penalty allowed them to put more plates on, but didn't directly give them more HP. It is admittedly not an ideal bonus so I'm open to suggestions. Hm... I wonder if they could add bonuses like that.. like they do in EVE... it would certainly make things more interesting and give the basic frame skill a purpose. It feels like its getting overly complex though... You're trying to figure out 12 bonuses where 4 might be okay. Does the tanking style of any one race really change all that much when you think about it? I guess lets think about this and list out viable racial bonuses... 1. Armor Plate Bonus 2. Shield Extender Bonus 3. Shield Recharger Bonus 4. Shield Regulator Bonus 5. Armor Plate Speed Penalty 6. Shield Extender Recharge Delay Penalty 8. Armor Repair Bonus 9. Ferroscale Bonus (?) 10. Cardiac Reg Bonus (?) 11. Kinetic Catalyzer Bonus (?) 12. Myofibril Stim Bonus (?) Those last 4 feel maybe a little specific... Same with targeting specific modules like Energizers and Reactive Plates... the Shield Extender Penalty may be kind of 'meh' as well. You could consider making med and heavy frame bonuses the same and then have light frames be specific since they dont need any more focus on hp. That leaves you with 8.. much more simple.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2298	Posted - 2014.07.11 17:40:00 - [196] - Quote Well my primary concern is making Heavies too self sufficient by allowing them to regenerate their massive base HP too quickly. Essentially I'm trying to encourage certain tanking styles with each frame, and trying to avoid adding raw HP since I think that's when things start to get really problematic. I think reduction to the penalties of extenders/plates is pretty solid for the heavy brick tankers, speed penalty reduction for plates would be a wet dream for many Amarr and Gallente Heavies, same goes for the reduced recharge penalty for Caldari and MInmatar. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3738	Posted - 2014.07.12 05:07:00 - [197] - Quote Looks like I fell way behind on this discussion. RL strikes again. My quick 2 cents: 1) We have to strictly avoid any offensive bonuses for logi suits. A sidearm, in and of itself, is a sufficient "bonus" to make an Amarr logi suit more combat-oriented than the others, all else being equal. Survivability bonuses are maybe a little different, but as we saw with the old cal logi bonus or the global inherent armor reps, supposedly "defensive" bonuses will often be highly desirable to slayers. 2) Any thoughts on my proposal of a small global logi bonus? I totally agree with zdub that pokey's proposal really makes the non-minmatar logi's even more obsolete, but if you made the additional bonuses small, what you really accomplish is making all the logi suits more desirable for support-oriented players than scout suits currently are. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2305	Posted - 2014.07.12 07:18:00 - [198] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Looks like I fell way behind on this discussion. RL strikes again. My quick 2 cents: 1) We have to strictly avoid any offensive bonuses for logi suits. A sidearm, in and of itself, is a sufficient "bonus" to make an Amarr logi suit more combat-oriented than the others, all else being equal. Survivability bonuses are maybe a little different, but as we saw with the old cal logi bonus or the global inherent armor reps, supposedly "defensive" bonuses will often be highly desirable to slayers. 2) Any thoughts on my proposal of a small global logi bonus? I totally agree with zdub that pokey's proposal really makes the non-minmatar logi's even more obsolete, but if you made the additional bonuses small, what you really accomplish is making all the logi suits more desirable for support-oriented players than scout suits currently are. 1. I think the Amarr always kind of slightly fall off the edge of the role and blur the line with another, the Amarr Logi with sidearm is a good example of this as it has a sidearm like an assault but (albeit limited) gear like a Logi. I don't think its is necessarily a bad thing, as it appeals to those who may want a little of both worlds and are ok with less of a focus. Keep in mind that the defensive bonuses I've outlined are also being given to Assaults who DO have offensive bonuses, meaning that while a Logi can put up similar defenses, the Assault will still "Out-Slay" them, meaning it will always be the superior slayer to the logi. 2. The problem really boils down to...how small? The bonus needs to be small enough so that each logi still feels unique, but strong enough so that people actually care. Like +1% to repair tool rate per level is a small bonus, but someone who wants to run as a Pocket-Logi Scout isn't going to really be turned off by that lack of 1%/Lvl bonus. So how much is enough? 2%? 3%? At that point it's pushing that Flatlined-Logi levels and we find ourselves at the previous problem. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing So we have the two options, the Flatline with a weak bonus across all equipment but threatens to make Logis feel too similar, and then the Specialist which gets two specialties, the primary being the full bonus and the secondary being either a full or reduced bonus. We just covered the issues with the Flatline, so looking at the Specialist; Is it the concept of the dual bonus that you don't like? Or just the particular pairs that I whipped up? Also assume Amarr Logi gets to keep the sidearm. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 954	Posted - 2014.07.12 08:41:00 - [199] - Quote Alcina Nektaria wrote: Miokai Zahou wrote: Mikey Ducati wrote: Alcina Nektaria wrote: Also, if you would like to make some changes, please take light weapons off of Sentinel suits. If you want to use a rail rifle, use a commando. It's already hard enough breaking through the armor of a Sentinel and it's impossible to get anywhere when you're getting shot in the face with a light weapon. Just stop it. If we go down the path of forcing people to change how they play with making sure light weapons can't fit on sentinels then this will have a ripple effect. This game is about customization. Because you don't use it and its a headache to you, doesn't mean that we should just not allow the freedom of customization to others. Lets not force people to play how we want them to play. Well going by your logic of freedom of customization I want my assault suit to use the hmg then. Well said, well said. My concern with this is: Why does the slot say "H" for HEAVY, yet a light weapon can be put on it? If I can carry a heavy weight then I can carry a light weight, the reverse is not true. I don't care either way, just pointing out that there is more than one logical argument. Because, that's why.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2306	Posted - 2014.07.12 09:03:00 - [200] - Quote Just had a thought, I remembered an interesting tidbit of information about the description of the Repair Tool and looked it up. Quote: "By projecting a focused harmonic beam into damaged materials, the repair tool channels construction nanites to return the targeted matter to its original state. Its on-board processor interfaces with a forward-facing sensor suite, instantly recognizing vehicles, devices, and personal armour based on microscopic manufacturer's tags. The beam, a bi-channel GÇ£hollow laserGÇ¥, simultaneously acts as both a containment field and transport medium for the nanite swarm, which works to sift unwanted particles from the structure, undo ionization, and reconstruct the atomic patterns of the material. The repair tool has several design innovations, the most surprising probably being the incorporation of Amarr focusing crystal technology. Beyond that, the device also makes use of an advanced K7 nano static co-processor on par with Caldari planet side missile tracking systems and a 55x5 reverse current power cell configuration rarely used beyond self-sustaining Gallente drone units. The result is an elegant tool combining the best technology from several very different design philosophies." We've all assumed that the Repair Tool, being Minmatar, should be tied to the Minmatar suit. However if you want to play with the lore a bit, it's actually really tied to all 4 races. Now the reason the Minmatar Logi is considered the most useful in PC is because of the repair tool bonus. That being said, lets consider giving that bonus to all Logis as part of the role bonus, and replacing the current Minmatar bonus with the remote bonus I had mentioned before. So now all 4 Logis have the most popular bonus, and thus the choice comes down to personal playstyle based off of the racial role. Now we can stop there or we can add in a secondary bonus, thus giving each Logi 3 equipment they're proficient in. I've outlined these two options in the spreadsheet. Keep in mind for the Dual Bonus option, I just picked arbitrary pairs and are loosely based off racial themes when possible, so the pairs themselves are negotiable. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1

ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2014.07.12 10:26:00 - [201] - Quote Alcina Nektaria wrote: So....you want to break the Logistics role even more? Come on, the equipment was already broken!! The worst idea ever was to change the spawn times and modify the nanohives. Absolutely ridiculous. Also, what is the point of changing the slots on the suits. They are set the way they are for a reason, they are fit to coincide with the racial benefits and makeup of the actual suit itself. Not to mention, if you have your logi fitted correctly, it's already slow enough AND it's meant to be able to heal other infantry. How is it supposed to do that if they are barely able to keep up with a heavy? Silly, just silly. Please leave the logistics suits alone or if you want to do anything to them, fix the equipment that you broke in the first place. Maybe take a look at the tanks. Take away the ability for them to stack damage modifiers because they already do enough damage in the first place. To add to this, maybe look at doing something about dropships so they don't explode when a feather touches them? How about that? This isnt about logis, its about nerfing logis so assaults will be more common. I see how ccp`s trying to get assaults right but nerfing logis to do that seems uneccesary. Remember that update when av got nerfed and tanks got buffed at the same time and it was hell.Its going to be just like that.I suggest you guys at ccp just buff assaults this update then see if logis need to be nerfed for people to go assault.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2014.07.12 14:09:00 - [202] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Add quick-swap between rep tools and primary weapon - like assaults have between primary and secondary weapons. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2014.07.12 14:11:00 - [203] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Make the existing request help button mandatory to summon help and show a revive marker. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2014.07.12 14:13:00 - [204] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Reduce Logi scan profiles by 5db Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2014.07.12 14:15:00 - [205] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Add visual identifier for the repairee that they are being repped. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2014.07.12 14:20:00 - [206] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? (Not specifically Logi related) Remove inherent armour repair from Gallente. Why the only race to get it? They have plenty of slots to fit an armour repair mod already. Any bonuses should be to the repair mods only. If they keep inherent armour rep, then nerf shield regen suitably to balance vs other races. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2014.07.12 14:23:00 - [207] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Fix phantom revive markers and marker placement. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1222	Posted - 2014.07.12 14:23:00 - [208] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Add visual identifier for the repairee that they are being repped. This would be a pretty legit add that would help folks out quite a bit; you get a direction cue when getting hit..give one when getting healed. If it's a relatively easy fix I strongly encourage CCP to look into it. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1222	Posted - 2014.07.12 14:28:00 - [209] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Just had a thought, I remembered an interesting tidbit of information about the description of the Repair Tool and looked it up. Quote: "By projecting a focused harmonic beam into damaged materials, the repair tool channels construction nanites to return the targeted matter to its original state. Its on-board processor interfaces with a forward-facing sensor suite, instantly recognizing vehicles, devices, and personal armour based on microscopic manufacturer's tags. The beam, a bi-channel GÇ£hollow laserGÇ¥, simultaneously acts as both a containment field and transport medium for the nanite swarm, which works to sift unwanted particles from the structure, undo ionization, and reconstruct the atomic patterns of the material. The repair tool has several design innovations, the most surprising probably being the incorporation of Amarr focusing crystal technology. Beyond that, the device also makes use of an advanced K7 nano static co-processor on par with Caldari planet side missile tracking systems and a 55x5 reverse current power cell configuration rarely used beyond self-sustaining Gallente drone units. The result is an elegant tool combining the best technology from several very different design philosophies." We've all assumed that the Repair Tool, being Minmatar, should be tied to the Minmatar suit. However if you want to play with the lore a bit, it's actually really tied to all 4 races. Now the reason the Minmatar Logi is considered the most useful in PC is because of the repair tool bonus. That being said, lets consider giving that bonus to all Logis as part of the role bonus, and replacing the current Minmatar bonus with the remote bonus I had mentioned before. So now all 4 Logis have the most popular bonus, and thus the choice comes down to personal playstyle based off of the racial role. Now we can stop there or we can add in a secondary bonus, thus giving each Logi 3 equipment they're proficient in. I've outlined these two options in the spreadsheet. Keep in mind for the Dual Bonus option, I just picked arbitrary pairs and are loosely based off racial themes when possible, so the pairs themselves are negotiable. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing Ok... i totally take back that whole fomenting rebellion against your tyrannical reign as the tax hungry OSG CEO. That is a very sharp find and frankly would be an elegant solution to quite a few things. It also strikes me that it's very similar to the EVE logi ship model as well. so... Min Logi - Current rep bonus & RE bonus Amarr Logi - Rep bonus & droplink bonus Gal Logi - Rep Bonus & Scan bonus Cal Logi - Rep Bonus & Hive bonus That's pretty legit. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 332	Posted - 2014.07.12 14:43:00 - [210] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? (Not specifically Logi related) Make all vehicles show up on TacNet. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1223	Posted - 2014.07.12 14:54:00 - [211] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: J .....We've all assumed that the Repair Tool, being Minmatar, should be tied to the Minmatar suit. However if you want to play with the lore a bit, it's actually really tied to all 4 races.... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing Pokey - question on the proposed global rep tool bonus. Do you see all four races getting the same bonus or perhaps a Min / Gal with a rep range bonus and Amarr / Cal with an effectiveness bonus? (or some mix) Either way the global or racially tuned option would work pretty well. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 3114	Posted - 2014.07.12 15:04:00 - [212] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: J .....We've all assumed that the Repair Tool, being Minmatar, should be tied to the Minmatar suit. However if you want to play with the lore a bit, it's actually really tied to all 4 races.... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing Pokey - question on the proposed global rep tool bonus. Do you see all four races getting the same bonus or perhaps a Min / Gal with a rep range bonus and Amarr / Cal with an effectiveness bonus? (or some mix) Either way the global or racially tuned option would work pretty well. Althought that would be interesting from a lore standpoint, it would probably be better to keep a some sort of role bonus like reps very similar. Maybe vary 1% either way, but making it a 'Logistics' would possibly be the correct option. A global repair bonus for logis would definitely change a lot of what I'm discussing. I still like the idea of having two logis with a sidearm and two without, but that is because i've always really enjoying playing that kind of combat logi. Just enough equipment to support the squad with enough combat potency to keep up.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1224	Posted - 2014.07.12 15:32:00 - [213] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Althought that would be interesting from a lore standpoint, it would probably be better to keep a some sort of role bonus like reps very similar. Maybe vary 1% either way, but making it a 'Logistics' Bonus would possibly be the correct option. A global repair bonus for logis would definitely change a lot of what I'm discussing. I still like the idea of having two logis with a sidearm and two without, but that is because i've always really enjoying playing that kind of combat logi. Just enough equipment to support the squad with enough combat potency to keep up. The common logi bonus using the rep tool probably would work better. I actually think your idea of combat logi and support logi still works though. I run a Cal Logi as a full support logibro primarily and do see a lot of uses for the CQC sidearm...i'm just a little leery of giving up too much to simply secure a sidearm. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 334	Posted - 2014.07.12 15:40:00 - [214] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Any more smart ideas that we can slot in? Make filling all equipment slots mandatory. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2314	Posted - 2014.07.12 18:53:00 - [215] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Althought that would be interesting from a lore standpoint, it would probably be better to keep a some sort of role bonus like reps very similar. Maybe vary 1% either way, but making it a 'Logistics' Bonus would possibly be the correct option. A global repair bonus for logis would definitely change a lot of what I'm discussing. I still like the idea of having two logis with a sidearm and two without, but that is because i've always really enjoying playing that kind of combat logi. Just enough equipment to support the squad with enough combat potency to keep up. The common logi bonus using the rep tool probably would work better. I actually think your idea of combat logi and support logi still works though. I run a Cal Logi as a full support logibro primarily and do see a lot of uses for the CQC sidearm...i'm just a little leery of giving up too much to simply secure a sidearm. Well one thing we should seriously look at is the possibility of a Shield Transporter Tool. I was talking to some dudes in CPM0 the other day to get a better feel for what is possible in terms of new asset creation, it basically boiled down to "As long as the behavior exists in the game's coding and it doesn't require new art assets, its possible that the item could be created. Now as I'm sure many of your are aware, when Logi LAVs existed, specifically the Charybdis, it had a Shield Transporter (Repair) Tool built in, and I think it even had the Blue Lightning instead of the Yellow for Armor. Now if that code still exists, it may be possible to patch together a Shield Transporter Tool by using the behavior and effect the old Logi LAV had. If THAT is all possible, I might argue that certain Logi races should a bonus to to the Armor Repair Tool, and others to the Shield Transporter Tool. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3745	Posted - 2014.07.12 19:04:00 - [216] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Looks like I fell way behind on this discussion. RL strikes again. My quick 2 cents: 1) We have to strictly avoid any offensive bonuses for logi suits. A sidearm, in and of itself, is a sufficient "bonus" to make an Amarr logi suit more combat-oriented than the others, all else being equal. Survivability bonuses are maybe a little different, but as we saw with the old cal logi bonus or the global inherent armor reps, supposedly "defensive" bonuses will often be highly desirable to slayers. 2) Any thoughts on my proposal of a small global logi bonus? I totally agree with zdub that pokey's proposal really makes the non-minmatar logi's even more obsolete, but if you made the additional bonuses small, what you really accomplish is making all the logi suits more desirable for support-oriented players than scout suits currently are. 1. I think the Amarr always kind of slightly fall off the edge of the role and blur the line with another, the Amarr Logi with sidearm is a good example of this as it has a sidearm like an assault but (albeit limited) gear like a Logi. I don't think its is necessarily a bad thing, as it appeals to those who may want a little of both worlds and are ok with less of a focus. Keep in mind that the defensive bonuses I've outlined are also being given to Assaults who DO have offensive bonuses, meaning that while a Logi can put up similar defenses, the Assault will still "Out-Slay" them, meaning it will always be the superior slayer to the logi. 2. The problem really boils down to...how small? The bonus needs to be small enough so that each logi still feels unique, but strong enough so that people actually care. Like +1% to repair tool rate per level is a small bonus, but someone who wants to run as a Pocket-Logi Scout isn't going to really be turned off by that lack of 1%/Lvl bonus. So how much is enough? 2%? 3%? At that point it's pushing that Flatlined-Logi levels and we find ourselves at the previous problem. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing So we have the two options, the Flatline with a weak bonus across all equipment but threatens to make Logis feel too similar, and then the Specialist which gets two specialties, the primary being the full bonus and the secondary being either a full or reduced bonus. We just covered the issues with the Flatline, so looking at the Specialist; Is it the concept of the dual bonus that you don't like? Or just the particular pairs that I whipped up? Also assume Amarr Logi gets to keep the sidearm. Lol. The Amarr logi losing it's sidearm is an automatic deal breaker for me, so that is always assumed! It's not that I have a problem with dual bonuses per se, it's just that all the prior suggestions along those lines made, as you correctly pointed out, rather arbitrary pairings. The problem with those becomes that everyone would want the rep tool and maybe to a lesser extent the uplink bonuses (if it worked properly, of course). With the exception of the Caldari having a rep tool bonus making the least sense, it would be hard to justify why the Gallente should get it over the Amarr, and vice versa. The proposed change to giving everyone a rep tool bonus naturally eliminates that, but then you wonder if the Minmatar logi, being a little squishier than the others, takes a hit. (Not that I care what befalls the shoe shiners union, as Cubs used to say, but naturally we need to be a littleobjective here) The other thing is, I'm trying to push what I'd like to conceptually see in Charlie, which, unlike Rattati's vision of it being primarily a buff to assaults, I'd like to see it as a revival of both medium frames relative to lights. Especially since I keep seeing proposals ranging from everyone to Rattati to IWS to Aeon Amadi with the same tired "nerf logis to buff assaults" rhetoric that has been floating around here since at least 1.4... it's still a bad approach, and while it at least had a modicum of logic behind it then, it's totally irrelevant now since this is scout/sentinel 514 we are playing today. Even still. the answer is the same now as it was then: If you want to buff assaults, then buff the damn assaults! Which, speaking about the defensive bonuses going to both medium frames, that's a good start but remember that logi's to a large extent (Amarr being an exception) still have greater slot counts and fitting resources than the corresponding assault suit and so we do still need to make the logi's less able (but not impossible, of course) to fit in a combat-focused way, either by: - Forcing all equipment slots to be filled, which sounds good (and tbh is something I've been pushing for like 8 months now), but I think I saw that it may not be easy to hot-fix, and it's honestly probably not as effective as we think it would be because there's nothing to stop people from just dropping some compact (or even higher tier triage) hives in the slots. - A more elegant but harder to balance solution is to decrease logi fitting power while simultaneously increasing the fitting bonus to equipment. Still looking for the (again, probably 8+ months old so it's hard to find) original post I made on that subject. If I can't find it I'll just run the math again, it's not like it was super complex to begin with. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2058	Posted - 2014.07.12 20:34:00 - [217] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Looks like I fell way behind on this discussion. RL strikes again. My quick 2 cents: 1) We have to strictly avoid any offensive bonuses for logi suits. A sidearm, in and of itself, is a sufficient "bonus" to make an Amarr logi suit more combat-oriented than the others, all else being equal. Survivability bonuses are maybe a little different, but as we saw with the old cal logi bonus or the global inherent armor reps, supposedly "defensive" bonuses will often be highly desirable to slayers. 2) Any thoughts on my proposal of a small global logi bonus? I totally agree with zdub that pokey's proposal really makes the non-minmatar logi's even more obsolete, but if you made the additional bonuses small, what you really accomplish is making all the logi suits more desirable for support-oriented players than scout suits currently are. 1. I think the Amarr always kind of slightly fall off the edge of the role and blur the line with another, the Amarr Logi with sidearm is a good example of this as it has a sidearm like an assault but (albeit limited) gear like a Logi. I don't think its is necessarily a bad thing, as it appeals to those who may want a little of both worlds and are ok with less of a focus. Keep in mind that the defensive bonuses I've outlined are also being given to Assaults who DO have offensive bonuses, meaning that while a Logi can put up similar defenses, the Assault will still "Out-Slay" them, meaning it will always be the superior slayer to the logi. 2. The problem really boils down to...how small? The bonus needs to be small enough so that each logi still feels unique, but strong enough so that people actually care. Like +1% to repair tool rate per level is a small bonus, but someone who wants to run as a Pocket-Logi Scout isn't going to really be turned off by that lack of 1%/Lvl bonus. So how much is enough? 2%? 3%? At that point it's pushing that Flatlined-Logi levels and we find ourselves at the previous problem. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing So we have the two options, the Flatline with a weak bonus across all equipment but threatens to make Logis feel too similar, and then the Specialist which gets two specialties, the primary being the full bonus and the secondary being either a full or reduced bonus. We just covered the issues with the Flatline, so looking at the Specialist; Is it the concept of the dual bonus that you don't like? Or just the particular pairs that I whipped up? Also assume Amarr Logi gets to keep the sidearm. Lol. The Amarr logi losing it's sidearm is an automatic deal breaker for me, so that is always assumed! It's not that I have a problem with dual bonuses per se, it's just that all the prior suggestions along those lines made, as you correctly pointed out, rather arbitrary pairings. The problem with those becomes that everyone would want the rep tool and maybe to a lesser extent the uplink bonuses (if it worked properly, of course). With the exception of the Caldari having a rep tool bonus making the least sense, it would be hard to justify why the Gallente should get it over the Amarr, and vice versa. The proposed change to giving everyone a rep tool bonus naturally eliminates that, but then you wonder if the Minmatar logi, being a little squishier than the others, takes a hit. (Not that I care what befalls the shoe shiners union, as Cubs used to say, but naturally we need to be a littleobjective here) The other thing is, I'm trying to push what I'd like to conceptually see in Charlie, which, unlike Rattati's vision of it being primarily a buff to assaults, I'd like to see it as a revival of both medium frames relative to lights. Especially since I keep seeing proposals ranging from everyone to Rattati to IWS to Aeon Amadi with the same tired "nerf logis to buff assaults" rhetoric that has been floating around here since at least 1.4... it's still a bad approach, and while it at least had a modicum of logic behind it then, it's totally irrelevant now since this is scout/sentinel 514 we are playing today. Even still. the answer is the same now as it was then: If you want to buff assaults, then buff the damn assaults! Which, speaking about the defensive bonuses going to both medium frames, that's a good start but remember that logi's to a large extent (Amarr being an exception) still have greater slot counts and fitting resources than the corresponding assault suit and so we do still need to make the logi's less able (but not impossible, of course) to fit in a combat-focused way, either by: - Forcing all equipment slots to be filled, which sounds good (and tbh is something I've been pushing for like 8 months now), but I think I saw that it may not be easy to hot-fix, and it's honestly probably not as effective as we think it would be because there's nothing to stop people from just dropping some compact (or even higher tier triage) hives in the slots. - A more elegant but harder to balance solution is to decrease logi fitting power while simultaneously increasing the fitting bonus to equipment. Still looking for the (again, probably 8+ months old so it's hard to find) original post I made on that subject. If I can't find it I'll just run the math again, it's not like it was super complex to begin with. Why would it be a deal breaker if the Amarr Logi were to be brought into line with the other Logi suits while getting a different though equivalent bonus to the others? I am just curious, personally, I don't see it as being a real Logi, it is the "Not-Assault Assault" IMHO "Heres the deal, in the 40s there was Normandy today you got punks, some need culling real bad." --Truth Logi for Hire
JP Acuna Pendejitos 211	Posted - 2014.07.12 20:37:00 - [218] - Quote Is it possible to give the G-I (STD) Gallente logistics some more hi/low slots? it only has 2 lows, too poor. At ADV it already has 2 hi's, 3 lows, why such a 'small beginning'? I don't even have a fitting with it.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 3115	Posted - 2014.07.12 21:06:00 - [219] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Althought that would be interesting from a lore standpoint, it would probably be better to keep a some sort of role bonus like reps very similar. Maybe vary 1% either way, but making it a 'Logistics' Bonus would possibly be the correct option. A global repair bonus for logis would definitely change a lot of what I'm discussing. I still like the idea of having two logis with a sidearm and two without, but that is because i've always really enjoying playing that kind of combat logi. Just enough equipment to support the squad with enough combat potency to keep up. The common logi bonus using the rep tool probably would work better. I actually think your idea of combat logi and support logi still works though. I run a Cal Logi as a full support logibro primarily and do see a lot of uses for the CQC sidearm...i'm just a little leery of giving up too much to simply secure a sidearm. Well one thing we should seriously look at is the possibility of a Shield Transporter Tool. I was talking to some dudes in CPM0 the other day to get a better feel for what is possible in terms of new asset creation, it basically boiled down to "As long as the behavior exists in the game's coding and it doesn't require new art assets, its possible that the item could be created. Now as I'm sure many of your are aware, when Logi LAVs existed, specifically the Charybdis, it had a Shield Transporter (Repair) Tool built in, and I think it even had the Blue Lightning instead of the Yellow for Armor. Now if that code still exists, it may be possible to patch together a Shield Transporter Tool by using the behavior and effect the old Logi LAV had. If THAT is all possible, I might argue that certain Logi races should a bonus to to the Armor Repair Tool, and others to the Shield Transporter Tool. I would be curious to get both of your guy's opinion on this. If we can run a shield transporter tool, then I could see a strong case for giving that to Caldari Logi suits. Then... for far more variety we go back to Logi Bro's suggestion and completely split this whole combat logi idea into separate types (i and II) of suits. We could make it look something like this perhaps (a modification of Pokey's spreadsheet): I've copied what I think is Pokey's current line of racial bonuses, I don't agree with them as I still believe Logi's should focus on pure HP and while assault suits should prefer regen but I include them for completeness. I still believe we need about a 50% reduction to the ISK cost of proto level equipment. With it costing so little, I think the Medic type suits lacking a bonus wouldn't matter as much, as they could easily fit proto nanohives which do quite well without a bonus imo. As you can see, I'm trying to keep the number of bonuses a suit gets as low as possible to prevent buggy code and general implementation issues that we see a lot with suit bonuses. Comments?
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3749	Posted - 2014.07.12 21:57:00 - [220] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Why would it be a deal breaker if the Amarr Logi were to be brought into line with the other Logi suits while getting a different though equivalent bonus to the others? I am just curious, personally, I don't see it as being a real Logi, it is the "Not-Assault Assault" IMHO Because it is one of the primary reasons I chose the suit back in the day, and the couple million SP or so I have invested in sidearms would be completely wasted. Also, as I have said before, the Amarr logi bonus is the only one that is likely to require someone to lone wolf it from time to time. The sidearm saves my ass time and time again. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 178	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:01:00 - [221] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Ok... i totally take back that whole fomenting rebellion against your tyrannical reign as the tax hungry OSG CEO. That is a very sharp find and frankly would be an elegant solution to quite a few things. It also strikes me that it's very similar to the EVE logi ship model as well. so... Min Logi - Current rep bonus & RE bonus Amarr Logi - Rep bonus & droplink bonus Gal Logi - Rep Bonus & Scan bonus Cal Logi - Rep Bonus & Hive bonus That's pretty legit. That seems a little better balanced. It encourages all logis to fit & use a rep tool while giving them a specific racial bonus. The only thing I honestly don't like is the RE bonus for minmatar, what sort of bonus would you give ? GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me." GÇò Frank Zappa
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2315	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:09:00 - [222] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Why would it be a deal breaker if the Amarr Logi were to be brought into line with the other Logi suits while getting a different though equivalent bonus to the others? I am just curious, personally, I don't see it as being a real Logi, it is the "Not-Assault Assault" IMHO The addition of a sidearm doesn't automatically make a suit suddenly be an assaulting class. Its fine to slightly blur the lines between classes because it adds diversity, just as long as those lines are not crossed. Adding a slight combat advantage with the sidearm while removing an equipment doesn't cross the line but it does provide players who want to push the edge of the Logi role a bit more with a playstyle that suits them. As I've stated before, I find the mentality that "Logi's are medical support only" to be very narrow minded and innacurate. I often run an injector on my Commando, am I then a "Not-Logistics Logistics"? Am I doing Commando wrong because I use equipment? I don't think so. Hawkings Greenback wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Ok... i totally take back that whole fomenting rebellion against your tyrannical reign as the tax hungry OSG CEO. That is a very sharp find and frankly would be an elegant solution to quite a few things. It also strikes me that it's very similar to the EVE logi ship model as well. so... Min Logi - Current rep bonus & RE bonus Amarr Logi - Rep bonus & droplink bonus Gal Logi - Rep Bonus & Scan bonus Cal Logi - Rep Bonus & Hive bonus That's pretty legit. That seems a little better balanced. It encourages all logis to fit & use a rep tool while giving them a specific racial bonus. The only thing I honestly don't like is the RE bonus for minmatar, what sort of bonus would you give ? I'm a little curious on your reasoning behind not liking the bonus? I'd also like to point out that I proposed Remotes as well as Proxy mines, making the Minmatar Logistics extremely good at indirect AV as well as battlefield control by allowing them to better lock down choke points. I'll add as a side note that I hate the "Ultimate Frisbee" playstyle with remotes, and would advocate some work to be done on them, specifically delay between deployment and detonation in order to make them more of a defensive tool and less of an offensive weapons against infantry. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1224	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:10:00 - [223] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: JP Acuna wrote: Is it possible to give the G-I (STD) Gallente logistics some more hi/low slots? it only has 2 lows, too poor. At ADV it already has 2 hi's, 3 lows, why such a 'small beginning'? I don't even have a fitting with it. That is a general problem with std suits in general imo. We really need to push CCP to buff the slot count on STD/ADV suits to help decrease the currently incredible combat potential differences that exists between the tiers of dropsuits. [quote=Pokey Dravon][quote=Jaysyn Larrisen][quote=ZDub 303] I would be curious to get both of your guy's opinion on this. If we can run a shield transporter tool, then I could see a strong case for giving that to Caldari Logi suits. Then... for far more variety we go back to Logi Bro's suggestion and completely split this whole combat logi idea into separate types (i and II) of suits. We could make it look something like this perhaps (a modification of Pokey's spreadsheet): I've copied what I think is Pokey's current line of racial bonuses, I don't agree with them as I still believe Logi's should focus on pure HP and while assault suits should prefer regen but I include them for completeness. I still believe we need about a 50% reduction to the ISK cost of proto level equipment. With it costing so little, I think the Medic type suits lacking a bonus wouldn't matter as much, as they could easily fit proto nanohives which do quite well without a bonus imo. As you can see, I'm trying to keep the number of bonuses a suit gets as low as possible to prevent buggy code and general implementation issues that we see a lot with suit bonuses. Comments? First... ref STD/ADV dropsuits. I would honestly look at just dropping ISK prices across the board and eliminate the current STD level. I don't see that happening anytime soon but I figured I would put it out there. I will say that running full-on Logi a very shaky financial edge. One bad game and you hemorrhage ISK...it's more efficient to run HAVs than logi suits in a lot of cases and that's a problem. If we reduced proto equipment with a flat 50% we would need to adjust ADV / STD / MLT as well. I'm not where I can get onto the Dust client to check prices but my gut tells me we would perhaps need to have more targeted or precise ISK reductions to bring things in line. Ok, On to your comment on Type I and Type II suits. I was unfamiliar with idea so i'm coming into it cold and that makes it a nice mental exercise. I like the additional suit variety and if there were multiple specializations across the frames then I would be much more favorable to the concept. I don't think we can recommend splitting the logi class unless there are corresponding plans to do the same for other suit lines and that might be too big of a bite at the apple for CCP in regards to Dust at the moment. Broadly - I'm a huge fan of having rep tool options that provide choices for us. I think you could even shape the bonuses quite a bit when you have those options. Of the top of my head I would look at something kinda like this: Amarr / Gal - High efficiency / moderate range modifiers to armor rep and no modifiers to shield reps. Minmatar - Moderate efficiency bonus both armor and shield reps and a high rep range bonus (similar to what they have now) Cal - High efficiency / moderate range modifiers to shield rep and no modifiers to armor reps "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1224	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:16:00 - [224] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Ok... i totally take back that whole fomenting rebellion against your tyrannical reign as the tax hungry OSG CEO. That is a very sharp find and frankly would be an elegant solution to quite a few things. It also strikes me that it's very similar to the EVE logi ship model as well. so... Min Logi - Current rep bonus & RE bonus Amarr Logi - Rep bonus & droplink bonus Gal Logi - Rep Bonus & Scan bonus Cal Logi - Rep Bonus & Hive bonus That's pretty legit. That seems a little better balanced. It encourages all logis to fit & use a rep tool while giving them a specific racial bonus. The only thing I honestly don't like is the RE bonus for minmatar, what sort of bonus would you give ? Good question. This comes down to categorizing REs as equipment and treating it as such for game play and not a weapon (note that you skill them through the weapon skill tree). I would look at mild damage buff per level or perhaps a blast radius increase would be more viable. If we want to categorize / incentives use of the RE as a weapon then you should have to choose whether to equip that OR a grenade. You'll also notice that the RE is one of the few items in the game that doesn't have any kind of bonus, perk, or buff from racial lines, skills, or modules. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 178	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:23:00 - [225] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Why would it be a deal breaker if the Amarr Logi were to be brought into line with the other Logi suits while getting a different though equivalent bonus to the others? I am just curious, personally, I don't see it as being a real Logi, it is the "Not-Assault Assault" IMHO The addition of a sidearm doesn't automatically make a suit suddenly be an assaulting class. Its fine to slightly blur the lines between classes because it adds diversity, just as long as those lines are not crossed. Adding a slight combat advantage with the sidearm while removing an equipment doesn't cross the line but it does provide players who want to push the edge of the Logi role a bit more with a playstyle that suits them. As I've stated before, I find the mentality that "Logi's are medical support only" to be very narrow minded and innacurate. I often run an injector on my Commando, am I then a "Not-Logistics Logistics"? Am I doing Commando wrong because I use equipment? I don't think so. Hawkings Greenback wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Ok... i totally take back that whole fomenting rebellion against your tyrannical reign as the tax hungry OSG CEO. That is a very sharp find and frankly would be an elegant solution to quite a few things. It also strikes me that it's very similar to the EVE logi ship model as well. so... Min Logi - Current rep bonus & RE bonus Amarr Logi - Rep bonus & droplink bonus Gal Logi - Rep Bonus & Scan bonus Cal Logi - Rep Bonus & Hive bonus That's pretty legit. That seems a little better balanced. It encourages all logis to fit & use a rep tool while giving them a specific racial bonus. The only thing I honestly don't like is the RE bonus for minmatar, what sort of bonus would you give ? I'm a little curious on your reasoning behind not liking the bonus? I'd also like to point out that I proposed Remotes as well as Proxy mines, making the Minmatar Logistics extremely good at indirect AV as well as battlefield control by allowing them to better lock down choke points. I'll add as a side note that I hate the "Ultimate Frisbee" playstyle with remotes, and would advocate some work to be done on them, specifically delay between deployment and detonation in order to make them more of a defensive tool and less of an offensive weapons against infantry. Sorry I got back to this thread & have kinda glanced over some of the posts I bolded the bit that would concern me, mainly because we all know that it would get abused unless like you say some additional changes were brought in. My other concern is that the other racial bonus provide things that allow there team mates to kill red dots whereas the minnie bonus allows the logi to kill things. GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me." GÇò Frank Zappa
Hawkings Greenback Red Star. EoN. 178	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:32:00 - [226] - Quote Had you considered the Minnie bonus to be for the nanite injector, my reasoning being that as a race they are the ultimate recyclers so no clone goes to waste & is brought back to life to be put back to use. GÇ£Their stupidity does not amaze me, its when they're smart that amazes me." GÇò Frank Zappa
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2060	Posted - 2014.07.12 23:07:00 - [227] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Why would it be a deal breaker if the Amarr Logi were to be brought into line with the other Logi suits while getting a different though equivalent bonus to the others? I am just curious, personally, I don't see it as being a real Logi, it is the "Not-Assault Assault" IMHO The addition of a sidearm doesn't automatically make a suit suddenly be an assaulting class. Its fine to slightly blur the lines between classes because it adds diversity, just as long as those lines are not crossed. Adding a slight combat advantage with the sidearm while removing an equipment doesn't cross the line but it does provide players who want to push the edge of the Logi role a bit more with a playstyle that suits them. As I've stated before, I find the mentality that "Logi's are medical support only" to be very narrow minded and innacurate. I often run an injector on my Commando, am I then a "Not-Logistics Logistics"? Am I doing Commando wrong because I use equipment? I don't think so. Well, first off, I have never stated that "Logis are Medical Support Only", I actually find that mentality to be deplorable as well. IMHO, Logi are intended for "Battlefield Facilitation" and should be the natural leaders for their team. After all, they have the easiest time deploying equipment for the benefit of their team due to the number of Equipment slots they have. However, Logi have always had a single Light Weapon Slot with no Sidearm as a way to force them to rely on their team as much as their team is supposed to rely on them. I've played Logi for so long that I at times forget that I have a Sidearm when I am running around in something else. IMHO, it is uncharacteristic of Logi and goes against the established grain of what it is to be a Logi for them to have two weapons (not counting Grenades or RE/Prox). In closing, my Minmando "Heavy Assault" fit has a Wiyrkomi on it. I've heard legitimate surprise in peoples voices when they realize that I am running a PRO Needle on a Commando suit, personally, IDK why it surprises them. "Heres the deal, in the 40s there was Normandy today you got punks, some need culling real bad." --Truth Logi for Hire
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 3115	Posted - 2014.07.12 23:27:00 - [228] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: First... ref STD/ADV dropsuits. I would honestly look at just dropping ISK prices across the board and eliminate the current STD level. I don't see that happening anytime soon but I figured I would put it out there. I will say that running full-on Logi can be a very shaky financial edge. One bad game and you hemorrhage ISK...it's more efficient to run HAVs than logi suits in a lot of cases and that's a problem. If we reduced proto equipment ISK cost with a flat 50% we would need to adjust ADV / STD / MLT as well. I'm not where I can get onto the Dust client to check prices but my gut tells me we would perhaps need to have more targeted or precise ISK reductions to bring things in line. Ok, on to your comment on Type I and Type II suits. I was unfamiliar with idea so i'm coming into it cold and that makes it a nice mental exercise. I like the additional suit variety and if there were multiple specializations across the frames then I would be much more favorable to the concept. I don't think we can recommend splitting the logi class unless there are corresponding plans to do the same for other suit lines and that might be too big of a bite at the apple for CCP in regards to Dust at the moment. Broadly - I'm a huge fan of having rep tool options that provide choices for us. I think you could even shape the bonuses quite a bit when you have those options. Of the top of my head I would look at something kinda like this: Amarr / Gal - High efficiency / moderate range modifiers to armor rep and no modifiers to shield reps. Minmatar - Moderate efficiency bonus both armor and shield reps and a high rep range bonus (similar to what they have now) Cal - High efficiency / moderate range modifiers to shield rep and no modifiers to armor reps Correct, the prices of most equipment would need to be adjusted, but I do want lower end equipment to remain relatively similar in cost to now. This encourages the use of higher end equipment for the fits that can afford it (logis). I would be really careful about adjusting rep bonus. When it comes to repairing, it's not about the race of the suit repairing but the race of the suit being repaired. We don't want to make certain suits undesirable to squads of x suit. Since racial logi suits are very expensive to skill into (SP Cost), forcing any dedicated logi to have to skill into many suits just to suit the squad they are running worries me. I also don't want these bonuses to define the suit so strongly. I can see where you're coming from in terms of flavor but I would say reduce the differences a bit. It keeps the flavor without making any one suit downright undesirable. For example... Min could have its current 10% range bonus while Cal has 5% and Amarr/Gal have 8%. It's enough for flavor without going crazy. I see your worry about bring type II suits to logi without ever having plans of doing type II to other suits. We could consider a third spec off medium suits? Make these completely separate. Or rework this idea of combat logi into a second light frame suit, consider we will likely never see pilot suits. I just love the idea of combat logi, I love my sidearm. I know it's not for everyone but I think it's a niche a lot of people would enjoy, even if it's just situationally.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2315	Posted - 2014.07.12 23:41:00 - [229] - Quote Hawkings Greenback, yes some work on the remotes would need to happen. Primarily I see them being more as a push for the more indirect combat that the Minmatar and Logistics are known for, allowing them to set up minefields and traps to drastically reduce enemy movement and route them Hawkings Greenback wrote: Had you considered the Minnie bonus to be for the nanite injector, my reasoning being that as a race they are the ultimate recyclers so no clone goes to waste & is brought back to life to be put back to use. Nanite injectors are not widely used, and I dont think a bonus to them would really encourage the use of that suit. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2060	Posted - 2014.07.12 23:49:00 - [230] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Hawkings Greenback, yes some work on the remotes would need to happen. Primarily I see them being more as a push for the more indirect combat that the Minmatar and Logistics are known for, allowing them to set up minefields and traps to drastically reduce enemy movement and route them Hawkings Greenback wrote: Had you considered the Minnie bonus to be for the nanite injector, my reasoning being that as a race they are the ultimate recyclers so no clone goes to waste & is brought back to life to be put back to use. Nanite injectors are not widely used, and I dont think a bonus to them would really encourage the use of that suit. I love you no homo. This is what Logi should be know for, Minmatar too since they are Dust/Project Legion's "OL" (Original Logis) "Heres the deal, in the 40s there was Normandy today you got punks, some need culling real bad." --Truth Logi for Hire

D3LTA iKidd'YuNOT D3LTA FORC3 C0VEN 2	Posted - 2014.07.13 01:54:00 - [231] - Quote As an Amarr Logi user I ask you not to take my sidearm as its the only reason i chose it rather than speccing back into my Cal Logi. I used to be Cal Logi and Gal Assault and wanted to be the best of both... Edit: Or Respec for me if you do.
Gemini Cuspid 113	Posted - 2014.07.13 04:07:00 - [232] - Quote Only thing I would say about my Amarrian Logi fit: you ARE the moving target that EVERY OTHER CLASS goes for. The goal of the logi as per launch was really an incubus of playing as a support member with the ideal role of scouts being able to monitor ahead and rely and a variety of backup from the assault class and heavy. Now back to present day.... Most players AVOID heavies and most scouts still have the flexibility and SP to rely on far ranged weapons to win shoot outs with assaults and logis. So the logi is essentially a walking brick of a weight that, when push comes to shove, players aren't going on that heavy they're instead going after that logi and there's a 100% ISK bet in my hand that says you're pretty screwed with expecting anyone else giving you a nano~injector. That's the overall problem WITH log in the hotfix: you made them more of a target than ever before and thereby break their abilit for any support because the only class they can team up with, heavy, is the class that no one is aiming to target. If you theoretically assume that the heavy is going to "shield" the logic you're assumption is wrong; a logi is DEPENDING on that Heavy to kill everything before the logi dies. Likewise, with the addition of self-repair armors versus launch as well as less squad groupings and Assault classes being the other irrelevant class, I mean yeah. There's not much anyone can do to save Logi as a class in general without breaking other stuff. Not surprised by any of this so it's not like I'm crying over it either. Frankly they should just offer the respec option right about now.
KING CHECKMATE Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 5272	Posted - 2014.07.13 04:12:00 - [233] - Quote Crazy Cat Lady wrote: The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Charlie * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. * WP for injectors, STD/ADV/PRO 25/50/75 WP I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes. Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower. Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through. Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first. Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention GÖª Note that the scout only really has one equipment slot since using a scout and NOT equiping a cloak is just ignoring one of the the purposes of the scout. Not to mention not making use of its SCOUT BONUS , and you would be endangering yourself considering the significant EHP difference there is nowadays between a true scout ( not HP tanked ) and any other frame. GÖª True i have a Scout/Logi fit that works pretty decent with uplinks/repair tool and needle, but besides the db and Scan precision im actually at a small disadvantage considering how strong AA is i cannot dodge perfectly and without cloak one doesnt last much. Plus, i missing important equipment Logi-Bonuses Continue. Stealth Storm
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 3755	Posted - 2014.07.13 04:24:00 - [234] - Quote Holy crap, it's a Checkmate sighting! Anyway, I found it. Actually only about 6 months old, it was an interesting read going back through those old threads from pre 1.7 to 1.8. A couple people pretty accurately predicted the rise of scouts and the death of medium frames, even before the final patch notes for 1.8. So, the bottom line is this: If you are seriously that concerned that logi's are going to infringe on the assault role (while inexplicably ignoring the massive contribution 1.8-era scouts made to the death of the assault), just go forward with another CPU/PG decrease and simultaneously increase the fitting bonus to equipment. Done properly, you should be able to make essentially the same exact support-oriented fitting you can now, but be very much hampered trying to make an offensively-minded logi fitting, as in the example I linked. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2317	Posted - 2014.07.13 06:49:00 - [235] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Holy crap, it's a Checkmate sighting! Anyway, I found it. Actually only about 6 months old, it was an interesting read going back through those old threads from pre 1.7 to 1.8. A couple people pretty accurately predicted the rise of scouts and the death of medium frames, even before the final patch notes for 1.8. So, the bottom line is this: If you are seriously that concerned that logi's are going to infringe on the assault role (while inexplicably ignoring the massive contribution 1.8-era scouts made to the death of the assault), just go forward with another CPU/PG decrease and simultaneously increase the fitting bonus to equipment. Done properly, you should be able to make essentially the same exact support-oriented fitting you can now, but be very much hampered trying to make an offensively-minded logi fitting, as in the example I linked. Yeeeep. Effective PG/CPU remains similar, but only when using equipment. Absolute PG/CPU is lowered to that similar of assaults, meaning at no point can a Logi out-class an assault in terms of defenses, but it comes close so its still able to survive, even if its offensive abilities are much lower. Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1
pegasis prime PROTO WOLVES 1782	Posted - 2014.07.13 09:26:00 - [236] - Quote Herrick Arcos wrote: First off I have to say hello to Crazy Cat Lady... Its been a long time since Shadow Cavalry! Second I think the logi's we have now are a far cry from the killer bees we had for a while and a nerf to their speed is definitely not something that is needed. Slowing logis is only going to make their ability to support their team unnecessarily more difficult. Its about time logis get some attention that actually impacts their ability to support their teams. I do feel the cloak fitting bonus needs to go but that one is obvious. o7 olboy how's tricks? id have to say i agree with cat and yourself with the speed reduction but im dead against the ammar logi loosing its sidearm . The cal logi needa a better bonus as the hive bonus is well pants. Proud Gunlogi pilot and forge gunner since August 2012. I fought and bled for the State on Caldari prime.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 338	Posted - 2014.07.13 13:20:00 - [237] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Crazy Cat Lady wrote: The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie. CCP Rattati wrote: Hotfix Charlie * Move all logistics to the same number of Equipment slots per tier, removing the Amarr sidearm. Reduce Logi speed slightly and remove Cloak fitting bonus. Same total of high and low slots as well per tier. * WP for injectors, STD/ADV/PRO 25/50/75 WP I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes. Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower. Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through. Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first. Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention GÖª Note that the scout only really has one equipment slot since using a scout and NOT equiping a cloak is just ignoring one of the the purposes of the scout. Not to mention not making use of its SCOUT BONUS , and you would be endangering yourself considering the significant EHP difference there is nowadays between a true scout ( not HP tanked ) and any other frame. GÖª True i have a Scout/Logi fit that works pretty decent with uplinks/repair tool and needle, but besides the db and Scan precision im actually at a small disadvantage considering how strong AA is i cannot dodge perfectly and without cloak one doesnt last much. Plus, i missing important equipment Logi-Bonuses Continue. IFF a Scout uses one of its slots for a cloak, then yes, you could look at it as 'a cloak plus one slot'. However, many Scouts do NOT use cloaks, and that is where the problem arises in Scouts out-assaulting Assault suits. (One example: I had the pleasure of 'meeting' a Scout recently who had 750 eHP and a proto Rail Rifle - it was a short meeting.) Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 627	Posted - 2014.07.18 09:45:00 - [238] - Quote A PROPOSAL I know that CCP must have data or ideas that justify certain setups. I am also pleased that there has been a move to rectify many subjects to create an evolving game that achieves a greater balance and immersion. My beef is with the MED Frame inequalities (LOGI and ASSAULT). There is a tension between the two because there is a lack of definition with the ASSAULT type MED frame. The LOGI is well defined and remains unique and is in a good place that will be better with the proper slot adjustments. The difficulty in CCPGÇÖs position is that it has yet to make the ASSAULT Frames the defining go to suits. IGÇÖm sure that if IGÇÖm not outright just stealing the idea by not crediting authors it is only that I agree with your positions and wanted to emphasize them again, but I offer this suggestion that I like. Defining the MED Frames The SLOT ADJUSTMENT is a good start, but too little to move the ASSAULTS to where they will be a dominating force. It hardly seems logical that a LOGI is the same ASSAULT suit that sacrifices base stats (EHP, potential, speed, shield recharge, stamina and recharge, etc.) and their side arm (mostly) then gets to carry all this great equipment AND have more high(H) and low(L) slots. The ASSAULT will only stand out when there is a defining difference between the two frames that makes the choice for a slayer obvious and the choice for a support role obvious. Make the ASSAULTs mean. THE H/L SLOT LAYOUT of each MED FRAME equal to each other or higher for ASSAULTS. THE CPU/PG is EQUAL or higher for LOGIS but each can fit all Proto MODS and Proto GEAR (LOGI EQ and ASSAULT LW, SA) Keep the LOGI stats as they are now. ASSAULT stats as they are now, but more HP as planned. First the LOGI A LOGIGÇÖs power in MODules and EQuipment Here the slot counts are all Equal to 8, 10, 12. BUT not all should be the same GÇô keeping a little flavor with the equipment bearers is cool. (and I support the Logi bonus changes) UNIQUE Logis GÇô (3EQ, Side Arm, Module Focus) AMARR SIDE ARM (Best Choice GÇô Unique)ORMODULE Focused (IFF Bonuses Change) S- 2H/3L/2E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/2E A- 2H/4L/3E + Side Arm A- 3H/4L/3E P- 3H/5L/3E + Side Arm P- 4H/5L/3E CALDARI SIDE ARM (Equality - another SA option)ORMODULE Focused (Unique) S- 3H/2L/2E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/2E A- 4H/2L/3E + Side Arm A- 4H/3L/3E P- 5H/3L/3E + Side Arm P- 5H/4L/3E EQ SPECIFIC Logis GÇô (4EQ) GALLENTE S- 2H/3L/3E A- 2H/3L/3E P- 3H/5L/4E MINMATAR S- 2H/2L/3E A- 3H/3L/3E P- 4H/4L/4E Delivers Logis with equal slot counts (side arm = 1 EQ) Keeps them equal in tier movements. ASSAULTS: Capable of being the most unique and powerful force out there. Lets make them that way. AMARR EQUAL to logi ORBETTER - Logi loses 1EQ for SA S- 2H/3L/1E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm A- 2H/4L/1E + Side Arm A- 3H/4L/1E + Side Arm P- 3H/5L/1E + Side Arm P- 4H/5L/1E + Side Arm CALDARI EQUAL to logi ORBETTER - Logi loses 1EQ for SA S- 3H/2L/1E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm A- 4H/2L/1E + Side Arm A- 4H/3L/1E + Side Arm P- 5H/3L/1E + Side Arm P- 5H/4L/1E + Side Arm GALLENTE EQUAL to logi ORBETTER - Logi loses 1H for 4thEQ S- 2H/3L/1E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm A- 2H/4L/1E + Side Arm A- 3H/4L/1E + Side Arm P- 3H/5L/1E + Side Arm P- 4H/5L/1E + Side Arm MINMATAR EQUAL to logi ORBETTER Focus - Logi loses 1H for 4thEQ S- 2H/2L/1E + Side Arm S- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm A- 3H/3L/1E + Side Arm A- 4H/3L/1E + Side Arm P- 4H/4L/1E + Side Arm P- 5H/4L/1E + Side Arm IN this way The COST of not being an ASSAULT is always less modules. Logis gain equipment but loses stat and 1 module. Scouts gain speed and equipment but lose stats and modules. Commandos gain HP and another LW but lose grenades and modules. Heavies gain HW and HP but lose modules. ASSAULTs will be the Maximum warriors even if their bonuses are not all that people may want. The modules and better stats make them awesome regardless. It makes the ASSAULTs versatile for battle and they may even give every class a run for their money as they will be the new Logi Slayer or Brick Scout that can suddenly do everything better than every other class (with the right module)GÇª but isnGÇÖt that what the ASSAULTs were meant to do? WerenGÇÖt the other classes supposed to sacrifice to take on another role? Not all roles are equal, but balance does not mean equality. IGÇÖll work on some CPU/PG Calculations tomorrow to try to find that sweet spot where the MED frames can have the same CPU/PG and what percentages their Bonuses need to be at in order to accommodate such a move. ThatGÇÖs all I got for now. The Logi Code. Cross Atu for CPM1 - A logical choice
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1508	Posted - 2014.07.18 10:23:00 - [239] - Quote too many stupid suggestions... if you want to fix all classes then make fittings of modules or equipment that is not supposed to be used harder. this is easily fixed with reducing all suits PG & CPU and adding a proper fitting bonus to all suits... few examples: heavy/sentinel: fitting bonus for heavy weapons logi: fitting bonus for sidearms & equipment scout: fitting bonus for cloaks & ewar/mobility modules that results in: if you fit your intended weapon / modules then it will be easy to have a great fit but if you dont then you are weaker somewhere else. you can still fit whatever you want but it will not be as easy. a logi will still be able to fit a light weapon BUT will have reduced health because he wont be able to fit all proto plates any more. a scout will still be able to put some tank on his suit and use something else than cloak but wont be able to fit the best weapons etc... with such a change a heavy with light weapon will be less effective or logi & scout wont be such good "assaults" as assault suits.
Meee One Algintal Core Gallente Federation 911	Posted - 2014.07.18 12:34:00 - [240] - Quote Hawkings Greenback wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Ok... i totally take back that whole fomenting rebellion against your tyrannical reign as the tax hungry OSG CEO. That is a very sharp find and frankly would be an elegant solution to quite a few things. It also strikes me that it's very similar to the EVE logi ship model as well. so... Min Logi - Current rep bonus & 1/2 Scanner bonus Amarr Logi - 1/2 Hive bonus & droplink bonus Gal Logi - 1/2 Rep Bonus & Scan bonus Cal Logi - 1/2 Droplink Bonus & Hive bonus That's pretty legit. That seems a little better balanced. It encourages all logis to fit & use a rep tool while giving them a specific racial bonus. The only thing I honestly don't like is the RE bonus for minmatar, what sort of bonus would you give ? FTFY Giving the Amarr logistics a bonus to rep tools would make Min logistics worthless in PCs. -Follow a heavy with a core focused -Drop uplink -Survive because armor is still king. These bonuses make much more sense.



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