ZDUB...I really like the thought process on this but I will offer two points and would appreciate your opinion:

1) Shouldn't you take into account the tank style preference in speed / HP discussion? Strikes me the that the shield-centric Cal / Min logi suits should be the "faster" suits that favor regen over buffer.

2) I think if you have a more combat oriented logi (3x EQ and L/S and less mod slots as you propose) then they should get a minor buff for a weapon or grenade usage? Nothing earth shaking, perhaps a fitting bonus or secondary weapon skill or even an extra grenade you can carry.

ZDub, your comment about overly flatlining the equipment bonuses is exactly why I preferd the one racial bonus plus a single secondary racial bonus that makes sense. Adding too many bonuses and the Logi's all start looking the game.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing

Added an alternative which I actually prefer (barring the need to add the remote/proxy bonus Id like as well)

In regards to the shield / amor tank question - that was in response to your comment that, broadly, the Cal / Amar should be slower and with more HP as opposed to your Gal / Min counterparts. The suit speed for example for the Gal / Cal is the same and they have the same raw HP value but with swapped shield / armor values. It sounded like you were talking about changing the base values of those suits which is where my question was generated.

In reference to the comment on not having combat related bonus for Logis...i see your point, however, I don't think it's as clear cut as that. The loss of the mod slots versus the pure support module doesn't make sense to me in relation to the other changes. The other piece of that is that if you are treating the Amarr and Cal as more combat logistics oriented suits they should get some minor fitting bonus for at least one of the weapon slots. The simple addition of a sidearm doesn't off-set things.

The equipment fitting advantage of the GAL / Min suits would still overshadow the other two suits from an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint.

The other piece of that is that your premise (which i don't necessarily disagree with) is based purely on arbitrary racial equipment bonuses. Assuming the assault suits get a proper buff / optimization it might very well leave the Amarr / Cal logi suits in a bad spot. Not good enough to be true offensive options and not good enough to be high value team support. I think it would be a fine line in making those two suits drop much lower in the relative value...particularly at higher end play.

ZDub, I feel that general tanking mechanic should be determined by the frame and not the role. The Slay Logi is discouraged because the resources without equipment is less than that of an assault. That paired with the lack of offensive bonuses make it a pretty ****** faux-Assault. I think that the Logi needs to have some sort of survivability bonus to keep up with the assault, though not exceed it. Now if it was a slightly weaker version of the Assault's bonus, that's reasonable.

As stated at the time this is preliminary, so by no means is any of this a finalized idea in my mind. I purposefully left the secondary bonus in the alternative without a integer because I think it may be best to make it a weaker bonus, meaning that the racially appropriate suit will still exceed any secondary bonus the other suit may have.

Also as I stated off on the left there, Amarr Logi should retain it's sidearm, it's removal takes away much of its appeal.

Actually I was kinda knocking around the idea that each of the 3 frames get their own "type" of tanking.

Mediums are Active tank and focus more on HP regeneration (Amarr is a bit of a black sheep here unfortunately)
Heavies are Buffer tank and focus on having a lot of HP but unable to get it back quickly
Lights are Speed tanked, low HP with decent regeneration but rely on getting behind cover and quickly flanking to avoid direct fire and combat.

Ultimately I'd like to tie these bonuses to the Frame skill itself, so for example instead of the Caldari Logistics getting the +5% to Shield Rechargers / Lvl of Caldari Logistics, it would be /Lvl of Caldari Medium Frames. This gives the Frame skill more of a purpose and also allows players to go into Caldari Assault, and start off with that same bonus to defenses right off the bat. Though you would need to do all frames at the same time, so I'm holding off on that for the moment and just tying the skill to the Logi skill.


As for the specific bonuses, I've been really conflicted on if the Caldari should get rechargers or if they should get regulators, and then the Minmatar getting whatever the Caldari doesn't use. The Amarr are tricky, I really wanted to avoid giving them more HP since as I outlined above, that's more of a Heavy thing. However the Amarr are the brick tanks of EVE, so I felt reducing the speed penalty allowed them to put more plates on, but didn't directly give them more HP. It is admittedly not an ideal bonus so I'm open to suggestions.

Pokey - question on the proposed global rep tool bonus. Do you see all four races getting the same bonus or perhaps a Min / Gal with a rep range bonus and Amarr / Cal with an effectiveness bonus? (or some mix)

Either way the global or racially tuned option would work pretty well.

Well one thing we should seriously look at is the possibility of a Shield Transporter Tool. I was talking to some dudes in CPM0 the other day to get a better feel for what is possible in terms of new asset creation, it basically boiled down to "As long as the behavior exists in the game's coding and it doesn't require new art assets, its possible that the item could be created. Now as I'm sure many of your are aware, when Logi LAVs existed, specifically the Charybdis, it had a Shield Transporter (Repair) Tool built in, and I think it even had the Blue Lightning instead of the Yellow for Armor.

Now if that code still exists, it may be possible to patch together a Shield Transporter Tool by using the behavior and effect the old Logi LAV had. If THAT is all possible, I might argue that certain Logi races should a bonus to to the Armor Repair Tool, and others to the Shield Transporter Tool.

First... ref STD/ADV dropsuits. I would honestly look at just dropping ISK prices across the board and eliminate the current STD level. I don't see that happening anytime soon but I figured I would put it out there.

I will say that running full-on Logi can be a very shaky financial edge. One bad game and you hemorrhage ISK...it's more efficient to run HAVs than logi suits in a lot of cases and that's a problem. If we reduced proto equipment ISK cost with a flat 50% we would need to adjust ADV / STD / MLT as well. I'm not where I can get onto the Dust client to check prices but my gut tells me we would perhaps need to have more targeted or precise ISK reductions to bring things in line.

Ok, on to your comment on Type I and Type II suits. I was unfamiliar with idea so i'm coming into it cold and that makes it a nice mental exercise. I like the additional suit variety and if there were multiple specializations across the frames then I would be much more favorable to the concept. I don't think we can recommend splitting the logi class unless there are corresponding plans to do the same for other suit lines and that might be too big of a bite at the apple for CCP in regards to Dust at the moment.

Broadly - I'm a huge fan of having rep tool options that provide choices for us. I think you could even shape the bonuses quite a bit when you have those options. Of the top of my head I would look at something kinda like this:

Amarr / Gal - High efficiency / moderate range modifiers to armor rep and no modifiers to shield reps.

Minmatar - Moderate efficiency bonus both armor and shield reps and a high rep range bonus (similar to what they have now)

Cal - High efficiency / moderate range modifiers to shield rep and no modifiers to armor reps