Any more smart ideas that we can slot in?

How about NOT NERFING INJIECTORS WP?

I was there when injectors were 40wp/revive and NOONE used them.

At 25/50 wp? Being revived will be as rare as a miracle.

An assist will give you the same wp as a revive, without needing to get yourself in danger/waste a equip slot/pg-cpu.

With scouts having almost the same equip, better stealth, hp and speed and injectors having crap rewards logi will go extint.

Have fun being drowned by people lamenting noone revive them.

Sounds good, I'm putting together a preliminary proposal we can all use as a starting point for some more concrete discussion about this. I'll hopefully have a link to the spreadsheet up here tonight.

I think detection range of proxy mines would make an excellent addition to the Logi bonuses I was talking about and had planned to put it in there for a more mid-term addition. Glad to see others had the same idea.

Here's a rough preliminary document we can use as a starting point:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing

Lol. The Amarr logi losing it's sidearm is an automatic deal breaker for me, so that is always assumed!

It's not that I have a problem with dual bonuses per se, it's just that all the prior suggestions along those lines made, as you correctly pointed out, rather arbitrary pairings. The problem with those becomes that everyone would want the rep tool and maybe to a lesser extent the uplink bonuses (if it worked properly, of course).

With the exception of the Caldari having a rep tool bonus making the least sense, it would be hard to justify why the Gallente should get it over the Amarr, and vice versa. The proposed change to giving everyone a rep tool bonus naturally eliminates that, but then you wonder if the Minmatar logi, being a little squishier than the others, takes a hit. (Not that I care what befalls the shoe shiners union, as Cubs used to say, but naturally we need to be a littleobjective here)

The other thing is, I'm trying to push what I'd like to conceptually see in Charlie, which, unlike Rattati's vision of it being primarily a buff to assaults, I'd like to see it as a revival of both medium frames relative to lights.

Especially since I keep seeing proposals ranging from everyone to Rattati to IWS to Aeon Amadi with the same tired "nerf logis to buff assaults" rhetoric that has been floating around here since at least 1.4... it's still a bad approach, and while it at least had a modicum of logic behind it then, it's totally irrelevant now since this is scout/sentinel 514 we are playing today. Even still. the answer is the same now as it was then: If you want to buff assaults, then buff the damn assaults!

Which, speaking about the defensive bonuses going to both medium frames, that's a good start but remember that logi's to a large extent (Amarr being an exception) still have greater slot counts and fitting resources than the corresponding assault suit and so we do still need to make the logi's less able (but not impossible, of course) to fit in a combat-focused way, either by:

- Forcing all equipment slots to be filled, which sounds good (and tbh is something I've been pushing for like 8 months now), but I think I saw that it may not be easy to hot-fix, and it's honestly probably not as effective as we think it would be because there's nothing to stop people from just dropping some compact (or even higher tier triage) hives in the slots.

- A more elegant but harder to balance solution is to decrease logi fitting power while simultaneously increasing the fitting bonus to equipment. Still looking for the (again, probably 8+ months old so it's hard to find) original post I made on that subject. If I can't find it I'll just run the math again, it's not like it was super complex to begin with.

The addition of a sidearm doesn't automatically make a suit suddenly be an assaulting class. Its fine to slightly blur the lines between classes because it adds diversity, just as long as those lines are not crossed. Adding a slight combat advantage with the sidearm while removing an equipment doesn't cross the line but it does provide players who want to push the edge of the Logi role a bit more with a playstyle that suits them. As I've stated before, I find the mentality that "Logi's are medical support only" to be very narrow minded and innacurate. I often run an injector on my Commando, am I then a "Not-Logistics Logistics"? Am I doing Commando wrong because I use equipment? I don't think so.

Hawkings Greenback, yes some work on the remotes would need to happen. Primarily I see them being more as a push for the more indirect combat that the Minmatar and Logistics are known for, allowing them to set up minefields and traps to drastically reduce enemy movement and route them



Nanite injectors are not widely used, and I dont think a bonus to them would really encourage the use of that suit.