this all this

Changes made to OP, logi speed not reduced plus some clarificications.

Logi's survivability rate is not as high thanks to the changes to reduce the slayer logi.

What does it matter what racial suit you pick when logis are the same across the board? It's that diversity that entices.

Especially since they said they wanted a dynamic battlefield. More and more CCP is changing that. Lets keep the variety and differences between the racial suits in game.

My point could be found in my post quite simply. I don't speak in riddles. If people hate the slayer logi so much...better yet for your understanding of my point...if people despise slayer logis then the weapon should be removed since its so highly frowned upon with the general discussion community that a logistics players can actually kill too.

I see no problem slayer logis because I have been killed by everything in Dust before. So why does it matter that there are "slayer logis"? I like a guy who can give me reps and then drop the rep tool to pop some melons with me near the frontline.

Not trying to be smart, but do you understand my point now?

Any more smart ideas that we can slot in?

All 4 suits need to have the same number of total H/L slots.

Loving most of this so far


100% in favor of the iterative approach to balance.
There are some pairings above with raise a bit of concern however regarding the order in which they're being selected.

So here are my concerns. The Primary Objective is fine, in fact long needed. Having the primary facet of the objective be attained by an HP buff (especially of that really is just HP/raw buffer and not actually eHP) is concerning. The Assault niche is not defined by its tank nor even it's slots (though a look at those certainly does make sense) and pinning balance on an HP, or even eHP centric method is very likely to cause role/frame overlap issues between the Assault in light frames, logi frames and the eHP balance on heavy frames.
Now that being said the Assault almost certainly does need some love when it comes to eHP, but as the primary or first metric to push rather than anything that helps define their niche and role as LW specialists, that's concerning it strikes me as unsettlingly similar to the logi bonus swap/equipment nerf from awhile back that was a bit too heavy on the 'symptomatic medicine' of addressing the immediate context rather than working for a more cohesive long view.

The logistics equipment slot change has needed to happen since the role bonus was changed, it's a matter of internal racial value added from the effects of the role bonus. But removing the Amarr sidearm (especially while it's racial bonus is still improperly apply/bugged) really constrains that racial suit, eliminating and/or not supporting much of a unique role for it.

Related, the WP scaling on injectors has been called for since closed beta so thank you for addressing that. It's greatly appreciated. I do have to say I'd hoped for an iteration on it with a more dynamic earnings bonus rather than a raw/hard coded one but I'm guessing this is a tech issue, so I won't look a gift horse in the mouth over this one.
It does however highlight the issue of the entire equipment line. The fix to Injector scaling, while wonderful and long needed, is only part of the problem that needs to be addressed. And while there might be reasons that doing it all at once isn't idea, I notice a lack of any
*overhaul and properly scale the equipment line
item on the Delta or later list. Which makes this concerning.
The long running equipment thread I started in closed beta round codex is still present and as yet had not comment from development since the hotfix cycle began. These issues are persistent, directly effect medium frame balance, and need to be addressed.


^Liking these overall

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Amarr Logi bonus is working correctly as the uplinks revert to their normal times when the player dies or switches suits, but will return back to their enhanced times when the player is in the Amarr Logi.

I don't feel that any single logistics suit is better than another...and the proposed changes (while slightly weird), make sense to me in terms of overall balancing. All 4 suits need to have the same number of total H/L slots, and Caldari shouldn't feel restricted for fitting space.

I saw a suggestion that Rattai mentioned in the feedback thread...something about increasing the fitting reduction of equipment and reducing cpu/pg. I do not support this UNLESS they do something about the invisible bonus to nanohives that the Nanocircuitry skill gives.

Rattai, PLEASE give us your opinion on this and whether you plan on giving all equipment this bonus, whether you will remove it and adjust fitting values for logistics accordingly (or adjust nanohive and injector requirements), or if you just would rather ignore it.

Plausibility of Logistics' equipment bonus applying to racial allies' equipment to a lesser extent..?

For instance the Amarr Logi getting (if my numbers are right) a 5% bonus to Nanites and 2.5% bonus to Ammo Replenish speed/repair. Half of what the Caldari Logistics gets.

Still gives incentive to specialize but takes a lot of the edge off of some Logistics being far more useful than others while accounting for lack of racial equipment.

How about NOT NERFING INJIECTORS WP?

I was there when injectors were 40wp/revive and NOONE used them.

At 25/50 wp? Being revived will be as rare as a miracle.

An assist will give you the same wp as a revive, without needing to get yourself in danger/waste a equip slot/pg-cpu.

With scouts having almost the same equip, better stealth, hp and speed and injectors having crap rewards logi will go extint.

Have fun being drowned by people lamenting noone revive them.

The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie.



I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes.

Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field

The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower.

Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through.

Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first.

Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention

Just stop it. If we go down the path of forcing people to change how they play with making sure light weapons can't fit on sentinels then this will have a ripple effect. This game is about customization. Because you don't use it and its a headache to you, doesn't mean that we should just not allow the freedom of customization to others.

Lets not force people to play how we want them to play.

First, big kudos to Crazy Cat Lady for posting this up and starting the conversation.

Second, Change can be frustrating but may open up some opportunity for us Logi players.

Feedback on Hotfix Charlie potential Logi updates:

1) WP scaling for needles - spot on and long over due. I would propose a slightly different WP reward mechanism for consideration. Additionally, the nanite injector probably should be effected positively in some way by the Cal Logi racial bonus.

2) Speed nerf to Logi - bad call. The speed of the logi was never what made them a "slayer" the versatility and ability to increase damage or tank was the reason. I think you could actually make a decent case for slightly increasing the base movement rate of the Logi's but not increase the sprint speed since that is more useful in maintaining pace with heavies and scouts on the offense.

3) Evening out the number of modules - need more info on this one. This change, coupled with equipment slot changes, is a major overhaul and you might get close to "over homogenizing" the logi class if you aren't careful. Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to change but it must be carefully considered.

Possible smart ideas for consideration:

a) Require every equipment slot to be filled. Similar mechanic to requiring a weapon to be equipped; this will not harm logi's in any way since we are already filling the slots. It will, however, discourage folks from rocking all proto mods, weapons, and nades while leaving equipment slots empty.

b) Significant bonuses to sidearms. Let me be VERY clear, I'm not a proponent for requiring Logi's run sidearms but I'm OK with incentivizing us carrying sidearms. We could get a 5% reduction to CPU/PG use and 2% increase in Damage per level and that might very well be enough to incentivize fairly significant use of sidearms.

c) Look at opening up scaled bonus for equipment across all types. Basically you get the current racially assigned equipment bonus AND you get a smaller buff for the other equipment types.

Speed is inherently tied to base movement speed. Sprint is (movement) * 1.4 * (other modifiers).
I'd actually really like to see the base movement speed of all frames the same with each role having a different sprint modifier.
e.g. Gallente Scout, Assault, Logistics, Sentinel, and Commando all move at 5.45m/s while all Minmatar suit move at 5.6m/s. All Sentinel suits sprint modifier on 1.2, Commando 1.25, Logi 1.3, Assault 1.35 and scout 1.5

Logistics need a bonus to all support equipment

Instead of removing the sidearm from the amarr logi, why not give the gallente a sidearm too? I see both of these logi's in more of a toolbox role compared to the other two, and having a sidearm on them would give each side of the war a unique fighter style logistics role.

It's a tough call, but what is the Amarr logi's strength once the uplinks are down? Them having some teeth outside of their seemingly temporary logistics role gives mercs another secondary role after their job is done. They're still outclassed by assaults and commandos, even with the sidearm.

Give the Cal logi its old CPU and PG back.

You could use that logic for the Caldari as well, once their hives go down, their bonus is useless. At least Gallente scanner or Minmatar repair tool cant be destroyed.

Give the Cal logi its old CPU and PG back.

One of the concepts I wanted to explore further with you guys is extended bonus beyond the primary racial equipment choice.

Several of us have mentioned it and i think it has a lot of merit if handled well. Any thoughts on proposals for how this might shake out?

Off the top of my head I was thinking something along the ideas of this:

Cal Logi
1) keeps current hive bonus (add increased effect for needles for Cal suits)
2) 2% decrease in spawn times from droplinks per level
3) 2% increase in rep tool range per level
4) 5% increase in range of active scanner per level

Gal Logi
1) Keeps current active scanner bonus
2) 1x additional spawn per level for drop links
3) 2% increase in rep tool effectiveness per level
4) 5% increase in nanite reservoir in hives per level

Min Logi
1) Keeps current rep tool bonus
2) 5% increased in dmg and blast radius of REs per level
3) 2% increase in nanite replenishment rate in hives per level
4) 2% decrease in spawn times from drop links per level

Amarr Logi
1) Keeps current drop link bonus
2) 5% increase in rep tool effectiveness
3) 2% increase in damage / blast radius for REs
4) 2% increase in nanite replenishment rate per level

Change the equipment bonus amounts. Maybe something like:
Logi racial equip bonus = +40%
Logi non-racial bonus = +20%
Non-Logi equip bonus = 0%

Equipment Bonuses
I think that forcing players to only have bonuses to a single equipment but giving them 3-4 slots is kinda silly. Racial bonuses are sweet, but so are role bonuses. Logi's should be the best at using equipment, period, and even better at using their own racial equipment. I have two suggestions for reworked bonuses for equipment

1. Logi's get full bonus for their racial equipment, as well as full bonus for another race's equipment, such that each has a unique pair. For example
Amarr: Bonus to Uplinks & Nanohives
Caldari: Bonus to Nanohives & Scanners
Gallente: Bonus to Scanners & Repair Tools
Minmatar: Bonus to Repair Tool & Uplinks
2. Logi's get full bonus for their racial equipment, as well as a partial bonus for all other race's equipment.

I personally like 1 a bit more, but I imagine most will prefer 2. I'd be content with either option. On a side note, I'd actually like all Logi's to get some form of bonus to remote explosives and proximity mines. I feel it really suits their Control and Indirect Combat themes, and would certainly bring and interesting dynamic to those equipment.
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You could use that logic for the Caldari as well, once their hives go down, their bonus is useless. At least Gallente scanner or Minmatar repair tool cant be destroyed.