ZDUB...I really like the thought process on this but I will offer two points and would appreciate your opinion:

1) Shouldn't you take into account the tank style preference in speed / HP discussion? Strikes me the that the shield-centric Cal / Min logi suits should be the "faster" suits that favor regen over buffer.

2) I think if you have a more combat oriented logi (3x EQ and L/S and less mod slots as you propose) then they should get a minor buff for a weapon or grenade usage? Nothing earth shaking, perhaps a fitting bonus or secondary weapon skill or even an extra grenade you can carry.

What if you had a light weapon slot on a logi, but the suits were bonused fairly heavily with sidearm bonuses?

I hate the idea of sidearm only, but I think the slayer logi thing is such a sticking point for many. The logi suits aren't being used as slayer platforms anymore by competitive players but maybe something like this opens up the possibility of rational talk about logi suits by the masses.

I think the sidearm bonus is more effective when you are only carrying one weapon since the LW will remain the primary weapon option for the logi (really any suit that carries LW / S). You would have to have a really serious bonus to the sidearm that essentially upgraded the sidearm to being at least as effective as the carried LW.

More grenades carried (no more than 2x extra) and and mild fitting bonus to weapons seem like it might be a little better option.

hm...

So for the first question.. I might be a little confused on the question but here are my thoughts on it:

Base stats for each suit already relatively define the speed and hp profile you should expect from each suit. The Logistics suits themselves have always favored buffer specifically because of their relatively low regen rates and move speed. You can't play a logi like a scout, you can't move/strafe as fast as a scout and you don't benefit from the increased base regeneration. These are the kinds of traits that define the capabilities of each class. A combat focused logi should always remain less capable in combat than a true combat centric class.

Just like EVE, I don't necessarily believe that shield users should automatically be faster just because they use shields, but the nature of shields in Dust requires that you have to rely on your regeneration somewhat if you want to play on an equal field to armor based suits. This is a tough discussion in its own right, and i'm not sure it necessarily defines the logistics discussion.

I will say this though... and you've probably already figured it out from my posts. If we normalize the capabilities of each logistics suit in terms of racial bonuses, then the most desired and viable logistics suit will almost automatically be defined by the state of armor/shield balance. As the current meta remains armor focused, I feel the Gallente suit will remain the most combat capable logistics suit, should they all be changed to have no sidearm.

I do believe it makes more sense to have a shield focused and armor focused suit for each 'role' in the logistics field, which in line with the current meta. The Caldari remains a shield focused combat logi while the Min remains a shield focused support logi. The same thoughts apply to the Amarr and Gallente respectively.

and for the second question:

Absolutely not, the combat logi role I propose should never have a combat focused bonus. The combat logi is acting as a hybrid, and should absolutely pay the hybrid price for it. Logistics suits should always have logistics bonuses, the combat logi should still remain a logistics focused suit, just with more combat potential than a true 4 equip logistics. The price you pay for playing combat logi over, say, an assault or scout is that you receive no bonus for the combat focus of the play style. This is how you balance the 'Slayer Logi' problem.

I hope that answers some of your thoughts.

Being able to carry a sidearm where the proto fits like an ADV and gets a bigger clip or something. Giving you the further ability to fit a better tank while carrying proto equipment.

I'm not saying I like it, but gimping the module slots on the logi suit just seems like a terrible idea (not saying that's what you are proposing, just looking at other proposals). It's too damn expensive to carry 4 pieces of proto equipment on a glass cannon.

I don't think it will buy as much CPU / PG as you think....you would have to at least be able to trade the appropriate amount of CPU/PG to fit the requisite tier tank mod (buffer or regen).

ZDub, your comment about overly flatlining the equipment bonuses is exactly why I preferd the one racial bonus plus a single secondary racial bonus that makes sense. Adding too many bonuses and the Logi's all start looking the game.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing

Added an alternative which I actually prefer (barring the need to add the remote/proxy bonus Id like as well)

In regards to the shield / amor tank question - that was in response to your comment that, broadly, the Cal / Amar should be slower and with more HP as opposed to your Gal / Min counterparts. The suit speed for example for the Gal / Cal is the same and they have the same raw HP value but with swapped shield / armor values. It sounded like you were talking about changing the base values of those suits which is where my question was generated.

In reference to the comment on not having combat related bonus for Logis...i see your point, however, I don't think it's as clear cut as that. The loss of the mod slots versus the pure support module doesn't make sense to me in relation to the other changes. The other piece of that is that if you are treating the Amarr and Cal as more combat logistics oriented suits they should get some minor fitting bonus for at least one of the weapon slots. The simple addition of a sidearm doesn't off-set things.

The equipment fitting advantage of the GAL / Min suits would still overshadow the other two suits from an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint.

The other piece of that is that your premise (which i don't necessarily disagree with) is based purely on arbitrary racial equipment bonuses. Assuming the assault suits get a proper buff / optimization it might very well leave the Amarr / Cal logi suits in a bad spot. Not good enough to be true offensive options and not good enough to be high value team support. I think it would be a fine line in making those two suits drop much lower in the relative value...particularly at higher end play.

Any more smart ideas that we can slot in?

ZDub, I feel that general tanking mechanic should be determined by the frame and not the role. The Slay Logi is discouraged because the resources without equipment is less than that of an assault. That paired with the lack of offensive bonuses make it a pretty ****** faux-Assault. I think that the Logi needs to have some sort of survivability bonus to keep up with the assault, though not exceed it. Now if it was a slightly weaker version of the Assault's bonus, that's reasonable.

As stated at the time this is preliminary, so by no means is any of this a finalized idea in my mind. I purposefully left the secondary bonus in the alternative without a integer because I think it may be best to make it a weaker bonus, meaning that the racially appropriate suit will still exceed any secondary bonus the other suit may have.

Also as I stated off on the left there, Amarr Logi should retain it's sidearm, it's removal takes away much of its appeal.

I looked at the spreadsheet again and scrolled a little further right and noticed you intend to give those bonuses to the assault suits too. Your idea is more to reinforce the tanking style of each race and less about survivability of any specific suit type. I like that a lot actually... would this 'racial bonus' extend to all suits of a particular racial type? Possibly with lower values... 2% for lights, 5% for mediums, and 8-10% for heavies perhaps?

I could see a pretty convincing argument that logi base stats could be bumped up to (or close to) assault levels to help increase their survivability, especially if we normalize the slot layout between the two classes.

As to the comment on that... would it make more sense to make the Minmatar base recharge delay lower while giving them a recharger module bonus?

I do, personally, believe that Caldari would be very viable if they returned to a buffer tank type with an extender bonus. This reinforces that they perfer longer range engagements where shield hp is preferred somewhat over recharge rate?

Rep bonus on Gallente.. check - 100% agreed.

Armor plate speed penalty may not be that viable for an already terribly slow set of suits for Amarr... would an Armor plate value bonus make more sense? I always felt that Amarr are the EHP kings, slow but massive buffer tanks...

Actually I was kinda knocking around the idea that each of the 3 frames get their own "type" of tanking.

Mediums are Active tank and focus more on HP regeneration (Amarr is a bit of a black sheep here unfortunately)
Heavies are Buffer tank and focus on having a lot of HP but unable to get it back quickly
Lights are Speed tanked, low HP with decent regeneration but rely on getting behind cover and quickly flanking to avoid direct fire and combat.

Ultimately I'd like to tie these bonuses to the Frame skill itself, so for example instead of the Caldari Logistics getting the +5% to Shield Rechargers / Lvl of Caldari Logistics, it would be /Lvl of Caldari Medium Frames. This gives the Frame skill more of a purpose and also allows players to go into Caldari Assault, and start off with that same bonus to defenses right off the bat. Though you would need to do all frames at the same time, so I'm holding off on that for the moment and just tying the skill to the Logi skill.


As for the specific bonuses, I've been really conflicted on if the Caldari should get rechargers or if they should get regulators, and then the Minmatar getting whatever the Caldari doesn't use. The Amarr are tricky, I really wanted to avoid giving them more HP since as I outlined above, that's more of a Heavy thing. However the Amarr are the brick tanks of EVE, so I felt reducing the speed penalty allowed them to put more plates on, but didn't directly give them more HP. It is admittedly not an ideal bonus so I'm open to suggestions.

Looks like I fell way behind on this discussion. RL strikes again.

My quick 2 cents:

1) We have to strictly avoid any offensive bonuses for logi suits. A sidearm, in and of itself, is a sufficient "bonus" to make an Amarr logi suit more combat-oriented than the others, all else being equal. Survivability bonuses are maybe a little different, but as we saw with the old cal logi bonus or the global inherent armor reps, supposedly "defensive" bonuses will often be highly desirable to slayers.

2) Any thoughts on my proposal of a small global logi bonus? I totally agree with zdub that pokey's proposal really makes the non-minmatar logi's even more obsolete, but if you made the additional bonuses small, what you really accomplish is making all the logi suits more desirable for support-oriented players than scout suits currently are.

Well said, well said. My concern with this is: Why does the slot say "H" for HEAVY, yet a light weapon can be put on it?

"By projecting a focused harmonic beam into damaged materials, the repair tool channels construction nanites to return the targeted matter to its original state. Its on-board processor interfaces with a forward-facing sensor suite, instantly recognizing vehicles, devices, and personal armour based on microscopic manufacturer's tags. The beam, a bi-channel GÇ£hollow laserGÇ¥, simultaneously acts as both a containment field and transport medium for the nanite swarm, which works to sift unwanted particles from the structure, undo ionization, and reconstruct the atomic patterns of the material.

The repair tool has several design innovations, the most surprising probably being the incorporation of Amarr focusing crystal technology. Beyond that, the device also makes use of an advanced K7 nano static co-processor on par with Caldari planet side missile tracking systems and a 55x5 reverse current power cell configuration rarely used beyond self-sustaining Gallente drone units. The result is an elegant tool combining the best technology from several very different design philosophies."

So....you want to break the Logistics role even more? Come on, the equipment was already broken!! The worst idea ever was to change the spawn times and modify the nanohives. Absolutely ridiculous. Also, what is the point of changing the slots on the suits. They are set the way they are for a reason, they are fit to coincide with the racial benefits and makeup of the actual suit itself. Not to mention, if you have your logi fitted correctly, it's already slow enough AND it's meant to be able to heal other infantry. How is it supposed to do that if they are barely able to keep up with a heavy? Silly, just silly. Please leave the logistics suits alone or if you want to do anything to them, fix the equipment that you broke in the first place. Maybe take a look at the tanks. Take away the ability for them to stack damage modifiers because they already do enough damage in the first place.

To add to this, maybe look at doing something about dropships so they don't explode when a feather touches them? How about that?

Any more smart ideas that we can slot in?

Any more smart ideas that we can slot in?

Any more smart ideas that we can slot in?

Any more smart ideas that we can slot in?

Any more smart ideas that we can slot in?

Any more smart ideas that we can slot in?

Add visual identifier for the repairee that they are being repped.

Just had a thought, I remembered an interesting tidbit of information about the description of the Repair Tool and looked it up.



We've all assumed that the Repair Tool, being Minmatar, should be tied to the Minmatar suit. However if you want to play with the lore a bit, it's actually really tied to all 4 races. Now the reason the Minmatar Logi is considered the most useful in PC is because of the repair tool bonus. That being said, lets consider giving that bonus to all Logis as part of the role bonus, and replacing the current Minmatar bonus with the remote bonus I had mentioned before.

So now all 4 Logis have the most popular bonus, and thus the choice comes down to personal playstyle based off of the racial role. Now we can stop there or we can add in a secondary bonus, thus giving each Logi 3 equipment they're proficient in. I've outlined these two options in the spreadsheet. Keep in mind for the Dual Bonus option, I just picked arbitrary pairs and are loosely based off racial themes when possible, so the pairs themselves are negotiable.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing

Any more smart ideas that we can slot in?